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FuelDrop
Okay, our group has been looking through the preview and the milspec armour caught our eyes. However, when you stop to think about it this stuff is a bit of a game breaker.

For instance, let's say that someone in medium milspec armour + helmet with a body of 4 is in a fight and someone opens up on him at full auto with an Ares Alpha assault rifle full of APDS, and gets a not exactly measly 5 hits.

Now our MM soldier has hardened armour 21, which is reduced to 15 by the net -6 AP of the rifle. the damage he's dealing with is 16 points, enough to outright floor most characters. Now 8 points of damage is automatically soaked by the hardened armour, leaving 8 to soak on 19 dice. 19 dice averages 6 1/3 hits, which we round down to 6 leaving 2 damage.

If the guy in the milspec had a measly 2 points of dermal plating or plastic bone lacing this becomes a single point of stun.


Now obviously this means that you need to deploy heavy weapons to deal with Milspec armour, but if there are any PCs without milspec then they'll go down from even standing nearby.
Also, you need seriously heavy weapons. HE grenades will have no effect on this guy.

The rule becomes all milspec or no milspec. One other side effect is that any serious opposition will be carrying assault cannons and missile launchers, which are apparently standard issue in modern armies...
Moirdryd
I think the new called shot rules in the book may lean towards a balancing factor, also Direct Combat Spells don't care what armour you are wearing. There are also the Ambush auto fire optional rules too. Plus I imagine AV rounds would also spoil someone in Milspec armour's day.
MrGlee
To be fair, it is a bit better than hardened armor in 4E, which in this scenario, would have completely stopped the damage all together with a single hit(or, if not a single hit was rolled, the character would have exploded).

Currently though, getting Milspec armor is gonna be hard. I expect it is gonna have to be custom fitted, it is reasonably pricey(seems to be around 1-2 runs with all the cash going towards the armor, though even with that it might be a little undercosted), and high enough availability that it at least won't be easy to get till around five sessions in. Now, if Restricted Gear ever gets turned into a 5e quality, yeah, that is gonna be a problem. Right now, I feel it is less so.
Lobo0705
And, unless you are running a campaign where your runners are playing mercenaries in a combat zone (which is possible, there is a PbP thread up on this now) - under no circumstances should your GM allow your character to have this.

Or, if he does, then expect that when someone sees you with it on, the response should be appropriate - i.e. high force spirits, anti-vehicle weapons, full HTR teams, etc.
forgarn
And remember you have the "appearance" factor. Someone walking down the street or into a building with Milspec armor on is just inviting the HRT teams with heavy weapons (also wearing Milspec armor) and armored vehicles to join the fun.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if you bring it as a player, I am going to bring it as a GM." Although I always wait for the players to bring it first.
Sendaz
It should be a very rare occasion you would run into this sort of armor. Even modern militaries do not deck out every single fighter with this sort of gear, even in the description this is designated for more elite units and corp equivalents.

Part of the problem is that they leave out so much about the wearing of this. Weight, encumbrance, flexibility are all handwaved over so of course it looks like the ripe plum.

Also when you are wearing this, you make yourself much more of a target, which is partly the idea of it-drawing fire away from their softer team mates because they can just plain soak it better.

Magic gives several options to counter this.. the aforementioned Direct spells bypass armor, a summoned ele can engulf the suit wearer, etc....

QUOTE (forgarn @ Mar 13 2014, 08:48 AM) *
I have always played any RPG with the rule "if you bring it as a player, I am going to bring it as a GM." Although I always wait for the players to bring it first.

So if the players bring Nerf Weapons on a run.......... wink.gif
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Mar 13 2014, 08:53 PM) *
So if the players bring Nerf Weapons on a run.......... wink.gif

Nerf make super soakers.

The squirtgun wars were begun.
toturi
QUOTE (forgarn @ Mar 13 2014, 08:48 PM) *
And remember you have the "appearance" factor. Someone walking down the street or into a building with Milspec armor on is just inviting the HRT teams with heavy weapons (also wearing Milspec armor) and armored vehicles to join the fun.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if you bring it as a player, I am going to bring it as a GM." Although I always wait for the players to bring it first.

It depends on whether you know anyone with the "Fashion" spell or its SR5 equivalent.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if I bring the best stuff as a player, the GM can't bring it; else I hit him upside the head with my books and I have the most books".
Lobo0705
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 13 2014, 10:30 AM) *
It depends on whether you know anyone with the "Fashion" spell or its SR5 equivalent.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if I bring the best stuff as a player, the GM can't bring it; else I hit him upside the head with my books and I have the most books".


It depends on how they do the Fashion spell too.

In 3e, you couldn't cast Fashion on any clothing whose armor was higher than the Force of the spell (+1 for every two successes).
In 4e, the ludicrously-pinko-commie-mages-should-rule-the-world lobby came in and made it just work on all armor equally, with no penalty. smile.gif
Drace
I highly expect encumberance will be a part of run and gun. And this will play a huge factor into the armour.

Also let's look at all the downsides:

1)horribly expensive
2)ultra rare. Not just does it have a high availability, but how the hell is Sammie #3 going to get it? Most militaries do t have them but in a small supply, so to factors play in.
3)Over heating. Read Picadors post, any GM worth th name will play that up
4)Conspicuous. You stand out worse than a naked albino troll carrying a flaming signpost. Those can be explained. You? Not so much
5)Targeted. Let's just say Geek te Mage first becomes moot when there is a person wearin the equivalent of a dragon on them for armour. Expect every sniper shot, vehicle weapon, grenade to be used agaisnt you and their tactics done to delay you and work you down one box at a time.
6)upkeep. A major downside is that anytime the character upgrades their physical stats the armour has to be refitted. Which can b either hella expensive or hella time consuming.

Now let's look at the upside:
1)moderate to High armour rating (same as sec armour for light, and up from their)
2)hardened
Ixal
QUOTE (Drace @ Mar 13 2014, 11:29 PM) *
there is a person wearin the equivalent of a dragon on them for armour.


And if all else fails just introduce double dragons as opponents (dragons wearing custom made hardened milspec armor).
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Drace @ Mar 14 2014, 06:29 AM) *
I highly expect encumberance will be a part of run and gun. And this will play a huge factor into the armour.

Also let's look at all the downsides:

1)horribly expensive
2)ultra rare. Not just does it have a high availability, but how the hell is Sammie #3 going to get it? Most militaries do t have them but in a small supply, so to factors play in.
3)Over heating. Read Picadors post, any GM worth th name will play that up
4)Conspicuous. You stand out worse than a naked albino troll carrying a flaming signpost. Those can be explained. You? Not so much
5)Targeted. Let's just say Geek te Mage first becomes moot when there is a person wearin the equivalent of a dragon on them for armour. Expect every sniper shot, vehicle weapon, grenade to be used agaisnt you and their tactics done to delay you and work you down one box at a time.
6)upkeep. A major downside is that anytime the character upgrades their physical stats the armour has to be refitted. Which can b either hella expensive or hella time consuming.

Now let's look at the upside:
1)moderate to High armour rating (same as sec armour for light, and up from their)
2)hardened

I can answer number 2: According to Vice the Triads do a rather nice line of knock-off milspec.
also number 5: Once you reach medium with helmet level grenades are harmless against you, and how many security companies/street gangs keep AV missiles/Assault cannons on hand at all times? Even sniper weapons are going to be more a nuisance than a threat much of the time.
Ixal
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Mar 13 2014, 11:38 PM) *
Once you reach medium with helmet level grenades are harmless against you, and how many security companies/street gangs keep AV missiles/Assault cannons on hand at all times?


They do not need to have them with them all times, but I am pretty sure everyone who is powerful enough to become the target of someone as armed as this has access to really big guns which will be requested as soon as the milspec armor is spotted. So it buys you a few minutes at the cost of having to deal with really though opposition later on.
binarywraith
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 13 2014, 09:30 AM) *
It depends on whether you know anyone with the "Fashion" spell or its SR5 equivalent.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if I bring the best stuff as a player, the GM can't bring it; else I hit him upside the head with my books and I have the most books".


That's the thing. The GM doesn't need better books. He controls the laws of probability in your character's universe. wink.gif
Drace
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Mar 13 2014, 05:38 PM) *
I can answer number 2: According to Vice the Triads do a rather nice line of knock-off milspec.
also number 5: Once you reach medium with helmet level grenades are harmless against you, and how many security companies/street gangs keep AV missiles/Assault cannons on hand at all times? Even sniper weapons are going to be more a nuisance than a threat much of the time.


True about the Triads. But guess what? For the most part (though there are many exceptions irl) knock off are shittier versions by far. What makes anyone think that a criminal organization, as organized and funded as he triads are, would have more access to mil spec gear than major militaries?

As well, if your playing a game where you have mil spec players going up agaisnt gangers and sec companies something may be wrong with the game. Until KE/Corp HTR gets there (unless we are talking about it happening in Redmond barrens) in several minutes and uses Ex and APDS in their machine guns, assault cannons and heavy weaponry I deal with the problem. And they will be wearing milspec too. Cause HTR are the big guns, the elites and the storm troopers of the corporate militaries. Probably with drone and magical backup if the threat requires it.

Now for campaigns that are in iut of the way areas an are pink Mohawk, I could see those being great, the GM would just hav to set the bar high in opfor to make a challenge there. (Keep that in mind any Lock and Load players reading his smile.gif )

Aswell as frequently mentioned, corpsec is much much underpowered than the average shadowrunner team. Their job in those situations is to delay whole HTR arrives while relaying possibly crucial info.

As for gangs, several adventures from back in th day hav gangs using mmgs and rocket launchers. If a shadowrunner can gt it so can a well injected ganger. Hell truth in television, those things are raided all the time by law enforcement usually to the question of "what the f*** is this doing here?! )
Smash
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Mar 13 2014, 09:40 PM) *
I think the new called shot rules in the book may lean towards a balancing factor, also Direct Combat Spells don't care what armour you are wearing. There are also the Ambush auto fire optional rules too. Plus I imagine AV rounds would also spoil someone in Milspec armour's day.


But direct combat spells have been deemed useless by plenty of forum members and thus can not be employed in either a tactical or strategic manner to deal with this scenario.

Mages must use regular weapons in all scenarios and therefore this type of armour breaks the game........... apparently.
Smash
Also, the logistics of this kind of armour would make it unpaletable for runners at the expense of it would outweigh the benefits. No doubt Run&Gun will have optional rules for armour degredation that I think will be more or less mandatory to implement if this level of gear is used.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Smash @ Mar 14 2014, 07:19 AM) *
But direct combat spells have been deemed useless by plenty of forum members and thus can not be employed in either a tactical or strategic manner to deal with this scenario.

Mages must use regualar weapons in all scenarios and therefore this type of armour breaks the game........... apparently.

Well I don't play a mage. My mistake, I'll just go on being completely redundant. I forgot this is magicrun.
Smash
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Mar 14 2014, 10:24 AM) *
Well I don't play a mage. My mistake, I'll just go on being completely redundant. I forgot this is magicrun.


It's a bit of a WoW mentality that gives players the impression that their given archetype should be useful in all scenarios.

I don't think we can really blame the system when 'Manabolt' has been deemed useless and overpowered at the same time.

This is also another one of those scenarios when the writers have put something into the game for versimilitude(?) but is not really meant to be used in a Shadowrun context. I would think that any sane Shadowrunner that had to go up against some elite/heavy special forces unit would just pass on that job and suggest that the Johnson gets his corp to deploy their own big guns or get government backing, etc.
Sendaz
how well does one swim in this sort of armor? Can not imagine too well.. lure them on a pier and drop it into the bay or into a pit and fill with plascrete. nyahnyah.gif

Didn't there used to be a hardening foam grenade?
Umidori
QUOTE (MrGlee @ Mar 13 2014, 04:41 AM) *
Currently though, getting Milspec armor is gonna be hard. I expect it is gonna have to be custom fitted, it is reasonably pricey(seems to be around 1-2 runs with all the cash going towards the armor, though even with that it might be a little undercosted), and high enough availability that it at least won't be easy to get till around five sessions in. Now, if Restricted Gear ever gets turned into a 5e quality, yeah, that is gonna be a problem. Right now, I feel it is less so.

Yeah, no.

Heavy Milspec + Helmet = nuyen.gif 35,000.

That's absurdly cheap compared to the costs of things like cyberware and cyberdecks, which are everywhere. Corporations supposedly use Skillwires systems all the time to avoid having to train their personnel, but 5E prices them at 20,000 per point of rating. Corporations supposedly hire Hackers and Riggers to protect their compounds, but a rock-bottom-price utter piece of trash cyberdeck costs just under 50,000.

Let me rephrase that - the best armor in the game is only 70% the cost of the worst cyberdeck in the game.

The pricing on Milspec is just insane. I seriously hope the numbers in the preview are just placeholders.

~Umi
MrGlee
also, I have hope more gear is introduced for dealing with Milspec armor in the book, seeing as we have only seen parts of it currently. We might get more ammo for dealing with it, or more grenades and such. We got time, and if there are absolutely no tools for dealing with Milspec when in Run & Gun, then there might be some balance issues(though I still don't think so), and we might be worrying for nothing.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Smash @ Mar 13 2014, 04:19 PM) *
But direct combat spells have been deemed useless by plenty of forum members and thus can not be employed in either a tactical or strategic manner to deal with this scenario.

Mages must use regular weapons in all scenarios and therefore this type of armour breaks the game........... apparently.


Considering that Direct combat spells are resisted by two stats AND only inflict damage based upon Net hits... Yeah, not so good. *shrug*
Hell... My mage in SR4A uses a gun instead of relying upon combat Spells... No Drain, after all. He can fire all day and twice on Sunday's even. *shrug* smile.gif cool.gif
psychophipps
Anything custom made holds a premium. Each suit has to individually fitted and it's not just the armor you're buying. You need to maintain it and that takes spare parts, specially tools and machines, and expertise.
Smash
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 14 2014, 10:47 AM) *
Yeah, no.

Heavy Milspec + Helmet = nuyen.gif 35,000.

That's absurdly cheap compared to the costs of things like cyberware and cyberdecks, which are everywhere. Corporations supposedly use Skillwires systems all the time to avoid having to train their personnel, but 5E prices them at 20,000 per point of rating. Corporations supposedly hire Hackers and Riggers to protect their compounds, but a rock-bottom-price utter piece of trash cyberdeck costs just under 50,000.

Let me rephrase that - the best armor in the game is only 70% the cost of the worst cyberdeck in the game.

The pricing on Milspec is just insane. I seriously hope the numbers in the preview are just placeholders.

~Umi


Good point. I was comparing it to the armoured jacket which is what $1000 or something like that?

So you're right, this cost needs to increase or armour needs to degrade. Replacing your lined coat after every 2nd fire-fight isn't that big a deal, but your 35k milspec? That certainly is a big deal.

One other minor point is that $35k is a lot harder to come by after character generation than during, but that's generally pretty specific to individual campaigns.
RHat
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Mar 13 2014, 05:24 PM) *
Well I don't play a mage. My mistake, I'll just go on being completely redundant. I forgot this is magicrun.


Oh, come on - it's perfectly fair to point out that direct combat spells are the paper to the rock that is milspec armour.

Still, let's say you take the Crockett EBR and load it with APDS for 12P -7 AP. Against the Light Armour w/ Helmet, that's 12P against 11 Armour. 6 Autohits, still leaving 6+Net Hits to soak. Medium w/Helmet is against 14 Armour, for 7 autohits, leaving 5+Net Hits. Heavy w/Helmet is against 16 Armour, for 8 autohits, leaving 4+Net Hits.

That's a chargen available weapon and ammo, being used against armour that isn't remotely chargen available. Even if I give the guy in the armour a dodge pool of 12, putting him up against a character with Agility 6[8], Longarms 6 [Sniper Rifles +2], and a wireless implanted Smartlink firing Aimed Called Bursts leaves it at 15 dice against 10 with 2 bonus damage, for 9.67/8.67/7.67 to soak, with soak results (at Body 3) of 4.67/5.67/6.33. That's 5/3/1.33 damage boxes actually inflicted by a character fresh out of chargen against the strongest damn armour you can get.
psychophipps
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 13 2014, 09:20 PM) *
Oh, come on - it's perfectly fair to point out that direct combat spells are the paper to the rock that is milspec armour.

Still, let's say you take the Crockett EBR and load it with APDS for 12P -7 AP. Against the Light Armour w/ Helmet, that's 12P against 11 Armour. 6 Autohits, still leaving 6+Net Hits to soak. Medium w/Helmet is against 14 Armour, for 7 autohits, leaving 5+Net Hits. Heavy w/Helmet is against 16 Armour, for 8 autohits, leaving 4+Net Hits.

That's a chargen available weapon and ammo, being used against armour that isn't remotely chargen available. Even if I give the guy in the armour a dodge pool of 12, putting him up against a character with Agility 6[8], Longarms 6 [Sniper Rifles +2], and a wireless implanted Smartlink firing Aimed Called Bursts leaves it at 15 dice against 10 with 2 bonus damage, for 9.67/8.67/7.67 to soak, with soak results (at Body 3) of 4.67/5.67/6.33. That's 5/3/1.33 damage boxes actually inflicted by a character fresh out of chargen against the strongest damn armour you can get.


I can't help but notice that things have really ramped up in dice pools from 4th to 5th edition.

As for the Longarms skill, why waste your skill points? Just use an accurized M14-equivalent like the M21 and simply keep the autofire sear set and bolt in the receiver. You can pop that mil-spec and never have to even glance at any skill besides Automatics.
RHat
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 13 2014, 09:30 PM) *
I can't help but notice that things have really ramped up in dice pools from 4th to 5th edition.

As for the Longarms skill, why waste your skill points? Just use an accurized M14-equivalent like the M21 and simply keep the autofire sear set and bolt in the receiver. You can pop that mil-spec and never have to even glance at any skill besides Automatics.


3 reasons.

1: I'm specifically and exclusively giving the starting character only things actually printed, because it's critically important that this be based on the freaking rules and not just random gun-wankery.

2: Because the only Automatics weapon that could be better for this is basically universally acknowledged to be broken.

3: I'm 100% in favour of the idea that Longarms is the best skill for taking on very hardened opponents, thus giving combatants plenty of motivation to invest in it. As it stands, I would like to devalue Automatics, due to balance considerations.
Jaid
QUOTE (Smash @ Mar 13 2014, 10:40 PM) *
One other minor point is that $35k is a lot harder to come by after character generation than during, but that's generally pretty specific to individual campaigns.


that depends on how often you can get those bottom-of-the-barrel cyberdecks. apparently shadowruns pay next to nothing in SR5, so expect the runners to steal everything valuable that isn't integral to the structure they're in (they'll bring a crowbar for nails, and a micro-welder for stuff that is literally welded in place).

and if it's integral to the structure but also externally accessible, expect them to take it anyways on the way out.
Moirdryd
I did mention other possible ways around it Fueldrop, including what's alluded to in the notes for called shots. I really don't see the Magicrun thing people always go on about, it's always been Magicrun, until people fluff a Drain roll or hit some BC (or used to be get a Trauma patch used on them or some bad biotech).
psychophipps
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Mar 13 2014, 10:48 PM) *
I did mention other possible ways around it Fueldrop, including what's alluded to in the notes for called shots. I really don't see the Magicrun thing people always go on about, it's always been Magicrun, until people fluff a Drain roll or hit some BC (or used to be get a Trauma patch used on them or some bad biotech).


My character Rickson used to carry Rating 6 Stim Patches for precisely this reason. It's amazing how talkative magic-types suddenly get when you start taking chunks of their world away with a small bit of adhesive, plastic, and chemicals. No worries about them coming to get him later, of course. He just smoked them in the grape when he was done threatening them with how...ordinary...the rest of their lives would be if he didn't get the info he needed.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Moirdyd @ Mar 14 2014, 11:48 AM) *
I did mention other possible ways around it Fueldrop, including what's alluded to in the notes for called shots. I really don't see the Magicrun thing people always go on about, it's always been Magicrun, until people fluff a Drain roll or hit some BC (or used to be get a Trauma patch used on them or some bad biotech).

Oh I agree that there are ways around it. Direct spells are great, high force elemental spells are passable, and some heavy weapons are effective. However, a street sam (whose primary job is threat elimination) is probably not going to have access to direct spells and is not assured to be much good with heavy weapons.
Sniper rifles with APDS are pretty much the only option for such a character to get through the defenses with any degree of reliability, a situation which is not good because if 1 pc has this armour then anything that challenges them will outright kill other characters, sometimes merely by standing nearby.

Aka it's a game breaker if 1 character gets some but not the others.
Smash
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Mar 14 2014, 03:39 PM) *
Oh I agree that there are ways around it. Direct spells are great, high force elemental spells are passable, and some heavy weapons are effective. However, a street sam (whose primary job is threat elimination) is probably not going to have access to direct spells and is not assured to be much good with heavy weapons.
Sniper rifles with APDS are pretty much the only option for such a character to get through the defenses with any degree of reliability, a situation which is not good because if 1 pc has this armour then anything that challenges them will outright kill other characters, sometimes merely by standing nearby.

Aka it's a game breaker if 1 character gets some but not the others.


Agreed, but is there a reason why only one character would want it? does it hinder my character's ability to cast spells for instsance? (I really don't know, nor can I access my book atm).
RHat
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Mar 13 2014, 10:39 PM) *
Oh I agree that there are ways around it. Direct spells are great, high force elemental spells are passable, and some heavy weapons are effective. However, a street sam (whose primary job is threat elimination) is probably not going to have access to direct spells and is not assured to be much good with heavy weapons.
Sniper rifles with APDS are pretty much the only option for such a character to get through the defenses with any degree of reliability, a situation which is not good because if 1 pc has this armour then anything that challenges them will outright kill other characters, sometimes merely by standing nearby.

Aka it's a game breaker if 1 character gets some but not the others.


There's a solution, though - the designated marksman. If only one player has this, then the entire opposition doesn't need to be kitted out to take him down; 1 sufficiently hard to take down, relatively-low-priority enemy whose job in the fight would quite reasonably be to take this guy out as fast as possible... And it's not so much sniper rifles as "Sniper Rifles" - the game category, which includes things that would notionally be hunting rifles and such (which makes GH3's reintroduction of the Sport Rifle a headscratcher). Hell, the Remington 950 is only 0.67 damage behind the EBR on this; and the EBR is more of a battle rifle (and probable choice for DMR, really) than a sniper rifle.
RHat
QUOTE (Smash @ Mar 13 2014, 11:39 PM) *
Agreed, but is there a reason why only one character would want it? does it hinder my character's ability to cast spells for instsance? (I really don't know, nor can I access my book atm).


Other than "I'd rather go for this deck/this augmentation/this vehicle/this focus", no.

...

And now I'm imagining a group where the only person who has this is a decker/rigger/technomancer who only has it so they can go ragdoll semi-safely in a fight.
Umidori
35k for 23 Hardened Armor for a VR Rigger or a projecting Mage is one hell of a deal.

~Umi
FuelDrop
Well what else does the technomancer have to spend money on?
Umidori
Bribing their teammates to not turn them in for a bounty? Techies make great corporate lab rats...

Hence why they buy the Milspec - keeps the Sammie happy. nyahnyah.gif

~Umi
RHat
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Mar 14 2014, 12:45 AM) *
Well what else does the technomancer have to spend money on?


Burn plans? The answer USED to be drones...
Sendaz
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 14 2014, 02:02 AM) *
Other than "I'd rather go for this deck/this augmentation/this vehicle/this focus", no.

...

And now I'm imagining a group where the only person who has this is a decker/rigger/technomancer who only has it so they can go ragdoll semi-safely in a fight.

Hell, if they spring for a power armor option and a bit of tweaking to give it more self mobility, you could have the mage/decker/techno inside a suit go rag doll projecting and the rigger running the suit with the body inside along with the group so it's not left behind. nyahnyah.gif

Note: I would recommend a direct cable link for this, don't want someone hijacking the suit too easily. wink.gif Then when they are back in body, a simple disconnect and go.
Drace
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Mar 14 2014, 12:39 AM) *
Oh I agree that there are ways around it. Direct spells are great, high force elemental spells are passable, and some heavy weapons are effective. However, a street sam (whose primary job is threat elimination) is probably not going to have access to direct spells and is not assured to be much good with heavy weapons.
Sniper rifles with APDS are pretty much the only option for such a character to get through the defenses with any degree of reliability, a situation which is not good because if 1 pc has this armour then anything that challenges them will outright kill other characters, sometimes merely by standing nearby.

Aka it's a game breaker if 1 character gets some but not the others.



The thing is, if there is something in te opfor that can go after a Sammie or character in hardened armour, they will. They wouldn't waste their time on the squishy characters, they would go for what they are equipped to take down. The hardened armour character.

And if only 1 character buys the hardened armour then you have to look at the team. Are they going to be sneaking? Nope not anymore unless the guy with HA is twiddling his thumbs in the van out back. Are they going into the woods? Nope unless the guy with HA doesn't come, cause that stuff will be breaking branches and forcing the character to be drinking fluids to stay alive, not to mention every animal in a mile will hear him. Will they be body guarding someone? Nope since the character with the Ha is too damn conspicuous, and probably too slow to dive into by of the bullet anyways.

By this point the character is only useful in a small select number of jobs; hunting big game (dragons etc) with a nearby base or vehicle (no camping in that crap), raids, destruction jobs, military work. And if that's e jobs the players wan to do then they would probably all be in the milspec gear too.
Umidori
QUOTE (Drace @ Mar 14 2014, 11:43 AM) *
Are they going to be sneaking? Nope not anymore unless the guy with HA is twiddling his thumbs in the van out back. Are they going into the woods? Nope unless the guy with HA doesn't come, cause that stuff will be breaking branches and forcing the character to be drinking fluids to stay alive, not to mention every animal in a mile will hear him. Will they be body guarding someone? Nope since the character with the Ha is too damn conspicuous, and probably too slow to dive into by of the bullet anyways.

You're only right about the bodyguard work, and there only partly.

Armor does not directly affect Infiltration, Survival, or anything else that doesn't involve social reactions. The only way that armor can influence your ability to move is if you become Encumbered by wearing more points of armor than you have the stats to manage. In SR4, you were limited to your Body x2 for normal armor and Body x3 for Milspec Armor before you started to take penalties to your Agility and Reaction stats. In SR5, the limitations are now based on your Strength x1, but this limitation only applies to "armor accessories". So anyone can wear any armor suit they want with zero impediment, and all they have to worry about is having Strength enough to for their helmet or shield if they take those along as well.

So in 4E? Yeah, if you have a Body of 3 and try to wear 16 Points of Milspec Armor, you're going to suffer -4 to both your Agility and Reaction, which will affect most everything you do. In 5E, you can have a Body and Strength of 1 and wear Heavy Milspec without a helmet with no problems. So if you want your min-maxed stealth assassin to have enough armor to shrug off most small arms fire just in case they DO get seen? 5E Milspec is a perfect.

The bodyguard point is valid, as are any points about socially acceptable attire. If you are seen at all while wearing Milspec, it's likely going to mean trouble, so you probably won't wear it during the Legwork phase, or while discretely protecting a client - but if you did wear it, you would still be fast enough to dive and take a bullet for them...

On the other hand, if you put on your Milspec at the Safehouse, ride to the mission site in the back of the team van, and then Infiltrate inside your target location to get to work, you shouldn't have any problems. If you get spotted in a corporate facility it'll already mean trouble if you have ANY visible weaponry or armor unless you're disguising somehow. So if you're not planning as impersonating on-site personnel, why not go full hog and take your Milspec with you?

~Umi
Ixal
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 15 2014, 12:25 AM) *
why not go full hog and take your Milspec with you?


As long as you don't mind that the response team will also go full hog with stuff that punches though Milspec armor.

It won't make a difference when infiltrating the super secret research facility in the middle of nowhere, but showing up that heavy armored in the office building on the outskirts of the city will provoke a harsher reaction than a more limited armament.
Umidori
Yes, because the HTR on call for a corp facility totally chooses their loadout based on what the Runners are wearing. Not like they'd just take their best gear out on a call to begin with, right?

"Sir, we just received word that the Westdale Research Facility has a security breach."
"How many and how well equipped?"
"At least four of them, deep in the secure testing wing, we're not sure how they got in but we've confirmed at least two are wielding heavy pistols and the group is not obviously armored."
"No armor, huh? Okay, just send in Derrek and his lightly equipped mooks - no need to mobilize the big guns, amirite? Ha ha haw!"
"But sir... what if they're wearing concealed armor? Or what if they have other weapons than just pistols? Or what if there are more than just four of them?
"Pssh! You worry too much, MacIntyre! Look, when you've been head of HTR as long as I have, you learn to respond with the minimum amount of force necessary for a given situation. It just makes sense!"

~Umi
Ixal
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 15 2014, 12:46 AM) *
Yes, because the HTR on call for a corp facility totally chooses their loadout based on what the Runners are wearing.


And of course every corp facility has a HTR with Anti-Milspec weapons on call and it will never happen that the dispatch decides that in face of the opposition a different team than the one assigned is required and contacts them instead/in addition...
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 15 2014, 07:46 AM) *
Yes, because the HTR on call for a corp facility totally chooses their loadout based on what the Runners are wearing. Not like they'd just take their best gear out on a call to begin with, right?

"Sir, we just received word that the Westdale Research Facility has a security breach."
"How many and how well equipped?"
"At least four of them, deep in the secure testing wing, we're not sure how they got in but we've confirmed at least two are wielding heavy pistols and the group is not obviously armored."
"No armor, huh? Okay, just send in Derrek and his lightly equipped mooks - no need to mobilize the big guns, amirite? Ha ha haw!"
"But sir... what if they're wearing concealed armor? Or what if they have other weapons than just pistols? Or what if there are more than just four of them?
"Pssh! You worry too much, MacIntyre! Look, when you've been head of HTR as long as I have, you learn to respond with the minimum amount of force necessary for a given situation. It just makes sense!"

~Umi


I think the problem is more like:

Reynolds: "Sir, SWAT reports ready but it looks like the terrorists have Milspec Armour!"
Lt Spoony: "Milspec? Holy shit! Right, we'll keep them pinned down, someone call in the Cyberpsycho squad."
Reynolds: "Sir, the Cyberpsychos? Are you sure?"
Lt Spoony: "I think so. We're simply not equipped to deal with this."
Reynolds: "Okay. Sir, I need you to move."
Lt Spoony: "Son of a B-"
Sendaz
I really don't see it as a problem because it will probably be more like:

Ryan: "Sir, reports have intruders on the east end of the complex and it looks like they have Milspec Armour!"
Cpt Spinney: "Milspec? Holy shit! Right, tell them to slow the intruders down as long as they can, we are on our way. Ryan get everyone from the west end and flank them."
Ryan: "Sir? Are you sure?"
Cpt Spinney: "I think so. We act fast enough we can pincer them between us ."
Reynolds: "Okay. Sir."

Several minutes later,

Cpt Spinney: GOD I hate that mil spec shite! All our firepower and those two bastards still got away.
Ryan: At least we drove them off sir. They didn't even get to the doors.
Cpt Spinney: Yeah, but would have looked better if we had a body or two to show fo--- *looking at the security screens* hey why is the door to the R&D department (west end) open?
*the pair watch in stunned disbelief as replay the security footage and watch several lightly geared figures slip away with the new prototype while gunshots can be heard in the far distance*

Ryan: Uh oh..
Cpt Spooney(soon to be Lt Spinney): "Son of a B-"
psychophipps
Cyberpsycho Squad? Mixing our food groups a bit, no?
FuelDrop
Both 'I need you to move' and Cyberpsycho squads were references to The Spoony Experiment (The SWAT 4 lets play and 'Shadowrun: The Code')

Yeah, the Cyberpsycho squad is from Cyberpunk 2020, but it's such a good idea that I can't get away from it. smile.gif
Umidori
So basically what other folks are saying is that wearing MilSpec increases the response time you have before a properly equipped HTR team shows up? nyahnyah.gif

If the ordinary HTR isn't equipped to handle MilSpec and they have to call in "the other guys", that's gonna take longer. So not only is MilSpec better at keeping you alive once the drek hits the fan, it also gives you more time to get in and out before that even happens! And it's cheap as balls? Sweet!

~Umi
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