What makes a 'combat character'? Options

[RHat]

Well, judging combat capacity is different than judging the likelihood of them starting a fight. So, attitude matters a lot.

Right, but the metric involved in my definition of a combat character, the definition which I see as being more useful, is the former, and not the latter.

[Cain]

Right, but the metric involved in my definition of a combat character, the definition which I see as being more useful, is the former, and not the latter.

Not really. If you don't want to start a fight, you open with the character least likely to start a fight. Their combat dice pools don't really matter; your best face might be a social adept with really excellent combat ability. That doesn't mean he's a combat character; he's a face who just excels at fighting.

If you do want to start a fight, that still doesn't mean you need to open with your best combatant. In fact, if you want to draw them out, sending in your most offensive character is the best move, regardless of their relative dice pools. (If the sniper has the best combat pool, you don't send him in, you hold him back and send in a sacrificial lamb as a distraction.)

[RHat]

Not really. If you don't want to start a fight, you open with the character least likely to start a fight. Their combat dice pools don't really matter; your best face might be a social adept with really excellent combat ability. That doesn't mean he's a combat character; he's a face who just excels at fighting.

If you do want to start a fight, that still doesn't mean you need to open with your best combatant. In fact, if you want to draw them out, sending in your most offensive character is the best move, regardless of their relative dice pools. (If the sniper has the best combat pool, you don't send him in, you hold him back and send in a sacrificial lamb as a distraction.)

Except that you only care about things in terms of combat characters in terms of IF the fight happens. That face with excellent combat ability IS a combat character because he's very, very useful when the fighting starts.

[FuelDrop]

What about characters who have good offense but lack initiative boosters or durability (either through upgrades or natural toughness)? Skill at shooting things is not the only metric of combat effectiveness.

[toturi]

Often if we are talking about a combat character, I will assume that we are talking about a combat effective character whether or not the character primary purpose is combat.

[Glyph]

I think a term as general as "combat character" is too general to nail down. I prefer adding a few descriptive words to it. For example, I would consider things such as combat mages, street samurai, and martial arts adepts to be combat-focused characters, while I would consider the face with pistols: 6 and muscle toner: 4 to be a combat-effective character.

To be honest, though, I would agree more with FuelDrop if I had to pick one or the other. I would look at how much of the character's resources were devoted to combat ability, and whether the character would be likely to resort to combat first or after other tactics have failed. Effectiveness is a poor measure of a combat character, in my opinion, because you can have a character mainly focused on combat who is still not that good at it (look at some of the archetypes), or a sneaky/face/techie type who can unleash all kinds of mayhem if a fight breaks out. The hapless security guard that the runners mow down might be pathetic, but I would still consider him a "combat character."

[Cain]

Except that you only care about things in terms of combat characters in terms of IF the fight happens. That face with excellent combat ability IS a combat character because he's very, very useful when the fighting starts.

Not necessarily; in this case his specialty is social, so he's a face.

Combat effectiveness depends on your table. Some people think 10-12 dice in combat skills are fine. Others here have pools of over 20 on a regular basis. So, a character-effective character at your table might ot be at mine, However, the personality stays the same.

To go back to the Firefly example: Shepherd Book only gets into one firefight during the whole series. However, during that fight, he shoots with enough accuracy to kneecap multiple enemies, some of whom are moving and/or behind cover. So, we can see that he has a lot of combat ability. Would you classify him as a combat character?

[kzt]

If I can routinely summon a F9 spirit I'm combat effective. (More accurately my nearly invulnerable spirits are combat effective - but it amounts to the same thing.) Even if I spent all my other points on flower arranging, play guitar and parachuting.

[RHat]

Not necessarily; in this case his specialty is social, so he's a face.

Combat effectiveness depends on your table. Some people think 10-12 dice in combat skills are fine. Others here have pools of over 20 on a regular basis. So, a character-effective character at your table might ot be at mine, However, the personality stays the same.

And he is ALSO a combat character, in addition to what his specialty actually is.. But yes, standards of effectiveness in all areas of the game vary from table to table.

[toturi]

Combat effectiveness depends on your table. Some people think 10-12 dice in combat skills are fine. Others here have pools of over 20 on a regular basis. So, a character-effective character at your table might ot be at mine, However, the personality stays the same.

Opposition is GM dependent and combat DPs suffer from being opposed. But more dice is more dice, the bigger the DP, the more likely the character to be combat effective in more tables.

[Cain]

And he is ALSO a combat character, in addition to what his specialty actually is.. But yes, standards of effectiveness in all areas of the game vary from table to table.

Really? To use Book again, he's more-or-less a pacifist with significant combat skills. Would you really consider him a combat character?

Opposition is GM dependent and combat DPs suffer from being opposed. But more dice is more dice, the bigger the DP, the more likely the character to be combat effective in more tables.

True, but it seems odd that what TJ would consider to be a combat character might be considered noncombat at yours. Especially if it were to be played the same way, by the same player. That's why behavior is a better deciding factor.

[Angelone]

Just because someone is combat effective it doesn't make them combat focused. It's the mindset, to keep with the Firefly theme, Book and River while effective in combat aren't combat characters. Just because someone can fight it doesn't make them a fighter, just because the Decker or Face can shoot it doesn't make them less of a Decker or Face. People are seeing combat skills and not focusing on the big picture and not looking at the rest of the character.

Edit- Clarity

[toturi]

I think for myself it comes down to a simple question. Does this character contribute significantly during combat?

Yes? Combat character.
No? Non-combat character.

I think that this takes into account both intent and character DPs.

[Cain]

I think for myself it comes down to a simple question. Does this character contribute significantly during combat?

Yes? Combat character.
No? Non-combat character.

I think that this takes into account both intent and character DPs.

I kind-of agree, but what about the character mentioned upthread, who likes to jump into fights, but isn't especially good at it?

[Sendaz]

I kind-of agree, but what about the character mentioned upthread, who likes to jump into fights, but isn't especially good at it?

That's called Bait or Skeet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[mister__joshua]

If I can routinely summon a F9 spirit I'm combat effective. (More accurately my nearly invulnerable spirits are combat effective - but it amounts to the same thing.) Even if I spent all my other points on flower arranging, play guitar and parachuting.

That sounds like character FuelDrop might actually make....

[toturi]

I kind-of agree, but what about the character mentioned upthread, who likes to jump into fights, but isn't especially good at it?

I am not sure. Because we are talking about contribution in combat.

He sure doesn't seem to contribute anything in the offense department, I am not sure about the guy's defensive capabilities. Or if he has any other abilities in non-direct combat applications.

I had a scout/perception character - his firearms DPs were 11 (hurray for smartlink!) and IIRC about the same for dodging, but the main thing was he would call out the targets, so that the team weren't caught unawares by any enemy.

[Shortstraw]

Also where does combat character end and combat monster begin?

[FuelDrop]

That sounds like character FuelDrop might actually make....

Actually, those points were going into Baking (cookies).
Grrl Scout.

[Cain]

Also where does combat character end and combat monster begin?

Combat effective: Based on dice pool relative to your table.

Combat character: someone who relies primarily on combat to solve situations. See: Jayne

Combat monster: a character who's fantastic at combat and useless at anything else. See: River.

A combat monster doesn't need to be a combat character. In fact, if you min/max wrong, you might be able to fight all the time. But when you do, it's an ouchie.

[kzt]

Combat monsters can do other things, but they are really, really good at fighting. Having 22 dice with your machine pistol doesn't mean you can't be good at hacking alarm systems too, but you are not going to be very good at a lot of things.

[Angelone]

Combat effective: Based on dice pool relative to your table.

Combat character: someone who relies primarily on combat to solve situations. See: Jayne

Combat monster: a character who's fantastic at combat and useless at anything else. See: River.

A combat monster doesn't need to be a combat character. In fact, if you min/max wrong, you might be able to fight all the time. But when you do, it's an ouchie.

I agree with these definitions.

Combat monsters can do other things, but they are really, really good at fighting. Having 22 dice with your machine pistol doesn't mean you can't be good at hacking alarm systems too, but you are not going to be very good at a lot of things.

That would be combat effective depending on your table.

[Cain]

Combat monsters can do other things, but they are really, really good at fighting. Having 22 dice with your machine pistol doesn't mean you can't be good at hacking alarm systems too, but you are not going to be very good at a lot of things.

Angelone already got this one. Depending on your table, 22 dice might be a combat god, or it might be average. That's why I used a term that was independent of dice pools: A combat monster is a one trick pony, and that trick is fighting.

[Happy Trees]

A one-trick pony can still gallop fairly well.

[Dolanar]

I will muddy the waters a bit more. I have a sniper who, personality wise, would find a brawl in the bar an annoyance & not worth the effort of drawing a weapon unless his life was threatened. However, I consider him a combat/stealth character because he defines himself as a killer & would probably trade his whole team is for a nice 5mil nuyen pricetag.