More Matrtix Questions Options

[BlackJaw]

I think I have a decent handle on the 5th edition matrix rules, but I've got a few questions, particularly with sprites. I suspect a lot of these don't have an official answer right now.

At the moment, the matrix can be thought of as a massive "grid space" full of device icons that roughly correspond to the location of devices in the real world. There are other icons as well: file icons appear in/on the device icons, but can not exist in the grid alone, host icons are massive and typically floating in the sky, although some (like the host for each local Stuffer Shack) appear lower to the horizon corresponding to their real world counter part's location. There are also Persona icons for active matrix users, agents, and sprites, which zip around interacting with icons and coming and going out of host systems.

Device icons are tied to the location of the device they represent, but persona icons can move around. Most persona icons replace the device they are based on, so a decker or agent running on a cyberdeck replaces the deck device icon with their persona. Living Personas and sprites do not have a device, so they are pure persona or nothing. Living Personas do still have a physical location, while sprites do not.

You can detect non-silent running icons for devices within 100 meters of your physical location. The rules are explicitly device icons, and it's measured from your physical location, not where you persona has zipped off to.

Unlike astral projecting characters, there is no movement speed for Personas. If you succeed on the matrix perception test to locate an icon beyond 100 meters, or automatically locate a host, you just sort of zip straight to it (or maybe pull it to you), but you don't get to see or interact with any of the other local device icons that may be near that icon because it's more than 100 meters away from you physical body... unless of course you spot them or already had them spotted, as you can always see/find icons you already have spotted, especially those you have marked or are the owner of.

Question 1: If you located the commlink icon for the target you intended to extract, you wouldn't be able to look around at the local grid space to see icons for his body guards or security on his building (unless you already had them spotted,) although you could attempt to look for such things with a matrix perception test?

Question 2a: A decker decides to attack a rival's persona. They aren't within 100 meters of each other. The decker makes a matrix perception test to locate & spot his rival (lets say in gridspace, not a host) and throws a dataspike at him. A successful attack action alerts the target on a success, but do not point point or describe the attacker. Even though our attacking decker isn't running silent, the victim of the attack doesn't know who attacked him or where it came from?
Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?
Question 2c: Two deckers sitting at oposite ends of a bar decide to have a matrix duel. Although they are within 100 meters of each other, unless they had previously spotted the other's persona icon, they can't automatically see each other in grid space because persona icons replace device icons, and the 100 meter rule only applies to device icons?

Question 3: Sprites have no physical location, so therefore they can't automatically detect icons within 100 meters ever?

Question 4: Sprites also are their own persona with their own marks/etc so they don't automatically share spotting information with their owner?

Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example?

Question 7: A registered sprite can be orders to use a sprite power on an icon, and this counts as 1 task which lasts until it's instructions are changed. Sprites don't sleep, and registered sprites don't accrue an OS score simply for existing, so the sprite will continue it's task indefinitely? I mean, eventually the device icon might go offline, the sprite might be attacked and destroyed, and even asking the sprite to change between hidden and public mode would be a "change," but in theory, it could go for a LONG time.

Question 8: Icons are things on the grid, not nodes you can be inside (like they were in 4th edition) so if you ordered a sprite to maintain a power on a device, it would always be next to the device icon in grid space, but because they have no physical counterpart, this doesn't make it possible to spot them within 100 meters, and because they have no device, you can't spot them with signal scanner at all. In short, they are only possible to spot if you specifically go look for a specific one with a matrix perception test, or if they are in a host system with you?

Question 9: Sprites lack a physical form so they can't ever use the direct connection exploit to help gain entrance to a host system?

Question 10: Device icons in a WAN are located inside a host, and are not accesible from outside the host, so for a Sprite to interact with one at all, it would need to enter the host normally (getting a mark on it one way or another) or if it's registered, fade back into the resonance, have you (the technomancer) enter the host, and then recall it from the background resonance... or of course be compiled in the host in the first place.

Question 12: Tracking or having GOD descend on a sprite gives away the location of the technomancer that compiled it. Because sprites don't run programs, the Stealth cyberprogram can't prevent this. Does a Technomancer with the Echo of the Stealth program gain some protection from this, or does that only apply to track/convergence on him and not his sprites?

Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.

Question 13: The programs running on a device you use to generate your persona are still visible on your persona (with a matrix perception test), otherwise how could they be targeted for a the Crash program action?

EDITED HERE

Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?
Question 14b: Assuming the answer to 14a is "no where in the rules is it banned," couldn't they also therefore use a Trode-Net & fiber optic cable to get a DNI direct link to a device they are trying to hack?

[Lobo0705]

I'll answer the questions to the best of my ability - YMMV on the quality of answers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think I have a decent handle on the 5th edition matrix rules, but I've got a few questions, particularly with sprites. I suspect a lot of these don't have an official answer right now.

At the moment, the matrix can be thought of as a massive "grid space" full of device icons that roughly correspond to the location of devices in the real world. There are other icons as well: file icons appear in/on the device icons, but can not exist in the grid alone, host icons are massive and typically floating in the sky, although some (like the host for each local Stuffer Shack) appear lower to the horizon corresponding to their real world counter part's location. There are also Persona icons for active matrix users, agents, and sprites, which zip around interacting with icons and coming and going out of host systems.

Device icons are tied to the location of the device they represent, but persona icons can move around. Most persona icons replace the device they are based on, so a decker or agent running on a cyberdeck replaces the deck device icon with their persona. Living Personas and sprites do not have a device, so they are pure persona or nothing. Living Personas do still have a physical location, while sprites do not.

I agree with everything you said so far.

You can detect non-silent running icons for devices within 100 meters of your physical location. The rules are explicitly device icons, and it's measured from your physical location, not where you persona has zipped off to.

Unlike astral projecting characters, there is no movement speed for Personas. If you succeed on the matrix perception test to locate an icon beyond 100 meters, or automatically locate a host, you just sort of zip straight to it (or maybe pull it to you), but you don't get to see or interact with any of the other local device icons that may be near that icon because it's more than 100 meters away from you physical body... unless of course you spot them or already had them spotted, as you can always see/find icons you already have spotted, especially those you have marked or are the owner of.

A minor quibble, in that you automatically detect non-silent running icons, and not that you can detect them.

With the second point, I believe that your persona is always in one spot. You don't actually move anywhere in the matrix (as far as I can tell) - unless you go into a Host - and even then, you don't actually go anywhere, you are just shifting perception to see the items in that Host. If, for instance, I want to find the icon for my friend's commlink 1km away, and I make a Matrix Perception test, I can now see that icon. It doesn't change my current perception - I don't see objects within 100 meters of his commlink's icon now, I still see all the icons that are within 100 meters of me.

Question 1: If you located the commlink icon for the target you intended to extract, you wouldn't be able to look around at the local grid space to see icons for his body guards or security on his building (unless you already had them spotted,) although you could attempt to look for such things with a matrix perception test?

Assuming it is more than 100 meters from you, you would not spot the bodyguards or security icons, unless you made Matrix Perception tests - and you would need to define your Matrix Perception tests - i.e. "Find all commlinks within 100meters of this device" - at which point you are going to get random commlinks equal to the number of hits. If you knew what type of commlink they were using, you could say "Find all Meta Links within 100 meters of that device" (Note the distance could be anything - 1 meter, 50 meters, etc.)

Question 2a: A decker decides to attack a rival's persona. They aren't within 100 meters of each other. The decker makes a matrix perception test to locate & spot his rival (lets say in gridspace, not a host) and throws a dataspike at him. A successful attack action alerts the target on a success, but do not point point or describe the attacker. Even though our attacking decker isn't running silent, the victim of the attack doesn't know who attacked him or where it came from?

The exact sentence is:

"If you succeed with an Attack action, your target
becomes aware that it is under attack by another icon,
but it doesn’t automatically spot you. It will most likely
actively search for you on its next action, although it
will almost always alert its owner to the attack and (if
it’s a host) launch IC, depending on the owner’s preferences
and the gamemaster’s judgment."

The way I interpret it, (and I could be wrong) is that if there is a reason for it NOT to automatically spot you - i.e. you are over 100 meters (even if you are not running silent) or if you are within 100 meters and ARE running silent, the successful attack does not mean it doesn't have to make a Matrix Perception to see you. If you are within 100 meters and not running silent, I believe not only person who was attacked would see you. If not, then he would have to make a Matrix Perception test "Find the icon that just attacked me."

Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?

It says that the Marks are specific to you, so only you can put Marks on a target (i.e. someone else cannot mark a target for you) but it isn't an Astral Signature - you can't use it to trace it back like that. The way it would work would be, you use Brute Force to mark a target, they could make a Matrix Perception to "Find the target that just attacked me."

Question 2c: Two deckers sitting at oposite ends of a bar decide to have a matrix duel. Although they are within 100 meters of each other, unless they had previously spotted the other's persona icon, they can't automatically see each other in grid space because persona icons replace device icons, and the 100 meter rule only applies to device icons?

I disagree. You are still using a device to access the Matrix.

Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example?

Yes, it makes Matrix Perception tests the same way a decker would.

Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.

The way the rules are written, that is correct.

Question 13: The programs running on a device you use to generate your persona are still visible on your persona (with a matrix perception test), otherwise how could they be targeted for a the Crash program action?

They are something you can see with a Matrix Perception test that says "Find the programs that Persona is running."

Question 3: Sprites have no physical location, so therefore they can't automatically detect icons within 100 meters ever?

Question 4: Sprites also are their own persona with their own marks/etc so they don't automatically share spotting information with their owner?

Question 7: A registered sprite can be orders to use a sprite power on an icon, and this counts as 1 task which lasts until it's instructions are changed. Sprites don't sleep, and registered sprites don't accrue an OS score simply for existing, so the sprite will continue it's task indefinitely? I mean, eventually the device icon might go offline, the sprite might be attacked and destroyed, and even asking the sprite to change between hidden and public mode would be a "change," but in theory, it could go for a LONG time.

Question 8: Icons are things on the grid, not nodes you can be inside (like they were in 4th edition) so if you ordered a sprite to maintain a power on a device, it would always be next to the device icon in grid space, but because they have no physical counterpart, this doesn't make it possible to spot them within 100 meters, and because they have no device, you can't spot them with signal scanner at all. In short, they are only possible to spot if you specifically go look for a specific one with a matrix perception test, or if they are in a host system with you?

Question 9: Sprites lack a physical form so they can't ever use the direct connection exploit to help gain entrance to a host system?

Question 10: Device icons in a WAN are located inside a host, and are not accesible from outside the host, so for a Sprite to interact with one at all, it would need to enter the host normally (getting a mark on it one way or another) or if it's registered, fade back into the resonance, have you (the technomancer) enter the host, and then recall it from the background resonance... or of course be compiled in the host in the first place.

Question 12: Tracking or having GOD descend on a sprite gives away the location of the technomancer that compiled it. Because sprites don't run programs, the Stealth cyberprogram can't prevent this. Does a Technomancer with the Echo of the Stealth program gain some protection from this, or does that only apply to track/convergence on him and not his sprites?

Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?
Question 14b: Assuming the answer to 14a is "no where in the rules is it banned," couldn't they also therefore use a Trode-Net & fiber optic cable to get a DNI direct link to a device they are trying to hack?

I will defer this to someone else, as I have no interest in Technomancers - they do not exist in my games (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DeathStrobe]

Question 1: If you located the commlink icon for the target you intended to extract, you wouldn't be able to look around at the local grid space to see icons for his body guards or security on his building (unless you already had them spotted,) although you could attempt to look for such things with a matrix perception test?

I'd say you can. You'll have to make a Matrix Perception test to find out what the icon is, but there is no reason that you can't look at the icon right next to your target to find out exactly what it is. You just don't get a free pass at it, since there is noise that is making the icon slightly difficult to make out.

Question 2a: A decker decides to attack a rival's persona. They aren't within 100 meters of each other. The decker makes a matrix perception test to locate & spot his rival (lets say in gridspace, not a host) and throws a dataspike at him. A successful attack action alerts the target on a success, but do not point point or describe the attacker. Even though our attacking decker isn't running silent, the victim of the attack doesn't know who attacked him or where it came from?
This is a grey part of the rules. The victim should probably notice the icon that had just attacked him, if the attacker isn't running silent. But by RAW, the victim might not know, and would probably need to make a Matrix Perception test to find the attacker (looking for the icon that just attacked him).

Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?
If he's not running silent, it doesn't seem like a smart idea to brute force. Why not sleaze? Then the victim would never know he was marked in the first place?

But I don't like that idea, because it requires a test to see the mark, and a test to spot the icon. Or maybe Matrix Perception just gives you a bunch of hits that you can distribute however you like. I guess I'd be okay if you could spend your hits on doing both things at once. That makes sense, right?

Question 2c: Two deckers sitting at oposite ends of a bar decide to have a matrix duel. Although they are within 100 meters of each other, unless they had previously spotted the other's persona icon, they can't automatically see each other in grid space because persona icons replace device icons, and the 100 meter rule only applies to device icons?
No...the 100 meter applies to persona's as well. Expect for sprites because they're magical and can't be effected by noise.

Question 3: Sprites have no physical location, so therefore they can't automatically detect icons within 100 meters ever?
Or the opposite is true, and they can see all icons regardless of distance. I go with that they're magical and don't suffer noise from distance and can spot anything.

Question 4: Sprites also are their own persona with their own marks/etc so they don't automatically share spotting information with their owner?
They should be able to share spotting data, since the TM and sprite share a mental link. But it doesn't mean that a TM gets to automatically see a stealthed icon just because their sprite spots it.

Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example?
Yes to the first part. No to the second; drones can't run agents.

Question 7: A registered sprite can be orders to use a sprite power on an icon, and this counts as 1 task which lasts until it's instructions are changed. Sprites don't sleep, and registered sprites don't accrue an OS score simply for existing, so the sprite will continue it's task indefinitely? I mean, eventually the device icon might go offline, the sprite might be attacked and destroyed, and even asking the sprite to change between hidden and public mode would be a "change," but in theory, it could go for a LONG time.
Assuming that the sprite isn't doing anything illegal, yes. Other wise, it'll start building up OS, and will sooner or later get hit with convergence.


Question 8: Icons are things on the grid, not nodes you can be inside (like they were in 4th edition) so if you ordered a sprite to maintain a power on a device, it would always be next to the device icon in grid space, but because they have no physical counterpart, this doesn't make it possible to spot them within 100 meters, and because they have no device, you can't spot them with signal scanner at all. In short, they are only possible to spot if you specifically go look for a specific one with a matrix perception test, or if they are in a host system with you?
I don't think a sprite needs to stay with a device to continue to affect it with a sprite power.

Though it would make sense that you need to do a Matrix perception test to see a sprite, not because its hard to see it, but because you'll have no idea what its icon is other wise.

Question 9: Sprites lack a physical form so they can't ever use the direct connection exploit to help gain entrance to a host system?
They should be able to use a data tap to "hardline" in to a device, like a TM would.

Question 10: Device icons in a WAN are located inside a host, and are not accesible from outside the host, so for a Sprite to interact with one at all, it would need to enter the host normally (getting a mark on it one way or another) or if it's registered, fade back into the resonance, have you (the technomancer) enter the host, and then recall it from the background resonance... or of course be compiled in the host in the first place.
Yes.

Question 11: Tracking or having GOD descend on a sprite gives away the location of the technomancer that compiled it. Because sprites don't run programs, the Stealth cyberprogram can't prevent this. Does a Technomancer with the Echo of the Stealth program gain some protection from this, or does that only apply to track/convergence on him and not his sprites?
I'd say a TM with the sneak echo is immune to the trace from convergence on a sprite, if only because echoes are really expensive.

Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.
Maybe! You might need to do a Matrix Search instead. Rules are unclear.

Question 13: The programs running on a device you use to generate your persona are still visible on your persona (with a matrix perception test), otherwise how could they be targeted for a the Crash program action?
Yes. Programs will look like accessories on the persona. Like a sword or flashlight. If you are crashing a program, you're targeting something like that on the persona.

Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?
Where the hell did you hear that? That's dumb. There is no reason they can't use cyberware to be a rigger or get -1 noise. That'd be dumb if they have to hurt their resonance and get nothing out of it.

Question 14b: Assuming the answer to 14a is "no where in the rules is it banned," couldn't they also therefore use a Trode-Net & fiber optic cable to get a DNI direct link to a device they are trying to hack?
Yes.

[Smash]

Question 1: If you located the commlink icon for the target you intended to extract, you wouldn't be able to look around at the local grid space to see icons for his body guards or security on his building (unless you already had them spotted,) although you could attempt to look for such things with a matrix perception test?

I don't believe you can based on those parameters alone. I think if the comlink can provide you with information about the other icons around it then I guess you could. That would totally be up to the GM and whether they believe that this sort of information would be available. I would think that if you hacked a Deck that was providing overwatch for a groups gear then this would be possible.

Question 2a: A decker decides to attack a rival's persona. They aren't within 100 meters of each other. The decker makes a matrix perception test to locate & spot his rival (lets say in gridspace, not a host) and throws a dataspike at him. A successful attack action alerts the target on a success, but do not point point or describe the attacker. Even though our attacking decker isn't running silent, the victim of the attack doesn't know who attacked him or where it came from?

The grid differentiates those within and outside 100m. Within seems to imply that you don't need to know specific information regarding icons, where as outside of 100m you do. I suspect that your deck would be able to pinpoint the icon within 100m that attacked it in the same fantastical way it knows the location of icons generally (some kind of fantastic triangulation that relies on one point rather than 3-4)

Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?

Seems reasonable as long as they spot the mark initially.

Question 2c: Two deckers sitting at oposite ends of a bar decide to have a matrix duel. Although they are within 100 meters of each other, unless they had previously spotted the other's persona icon, they can't automatically see each other in grid space because persona icons replace device icons, and the 100 meter rule only applies to device icons?

The 100m rule applies to everything besides hosts (and that one is debatable).

Question 3: Sprites have no physical location, so therefore they can't automatically detect icons within 100 meters ever?

Question 4: Sprites also are their own persona with their own marks/etc so they don't automatically share spotting information with their owner?

i'll leave sprites alone because i have chosen not to familiarise myself with technomancers as of yet.

Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example??

Yes and yes. As long as they don't require attack or sleaze to perform any of their actions.

Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.

As far as I'm aware the only thing that is exempt from the 100m rules are hosts. It would be helpful if you could point out a section of the book that specifies that it only applies to devices.

Question 13: The programs running on a device you use to generate your persona are still visible on your persona (with a matrix perception test), otherwise how could they be targeted for a the Crash program action?

Indeed. Net hits can reveal all these kinds of information.

Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?

I haven't seem the exclusion anywhere. Perhaps it stems from the fact that you lose resonance to do it and so it's not desirable.

Question 14b: Assuming the answer to 14a is "no where in the rules is it banned," couldn't they also therefore use a Trode-Net & fiber optic cable to get a DNI direct link to a device they are trying to hack?

I would assume that they could connect a comlink to a device and use it as a link, but again i have not read enough about them to be sure.

[RHat]

Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?
Where the hell did you hear that? That's dumb. There is no reason they can't use cyberware to be a rigger or get -1 noise. That'd be dumb if they have to hurt their resonance and get nothing out of it.

It's actually less than perfectly clear how they interact with those augmentations. What is clear, however, is that they can't ever benefit from a direct connection, because they can't hook a cable to their Living Persona.

[DeathStrobe]

It's actually less than perfectly clear how they interact with those augmentations. What is clear, however, is that they can't ever benefit from a direct connection, because they can't hook a cable to their Living Persona.

That's dumb, and cannot possibly be RAI, and I highly question if its RAW. Since a TM can use a deck, presumably without needing DNI, since being a TM gives you DNI. Why would there be an unnecessarily vague ruling that alternate forms of DNI would not be able to work with the Living Persona?

[RHat]

That's dumb, and cannot possibly be RAI, and I highly question if its RAW. Since a TM can use a deck, presumably without needing DNI, since being a TM gives you DNI. Why would there be an unnecessarily vague ruling that alternate forms of DNI would not be able to work with the Living Persona?

*shrug* Just know it's been argued about. I'd generally conclude it's wireless DNI; I do wonder why they don't just inherently have DNI though.

The direct connection thing, though, is pretty clear and a big damn problem.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*shrug* Just know it's been argued about. I'd generally conclude it's wireless DNI; I do wonder why they don't just inherently have DNI though.

The direct connection thing, though, is pretty clear and a big damn problem.

Which is why, as a Technomancer, you get a Datajack installed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Happy Trees]

Which is why, as a Technomancer, you get a Datajack installed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Or immerse and get the touch interface ability.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or immerse and get the touch interface ability.

Yep, that too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Is that still available in SR5? Must have missed it in the list.

[Jaid]

Yep, that too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Is that still available in SR5? Must have missed it in the list.

nope. not yet, anyways.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

nope. not yet, anyways.

Did not think so... We will see what we get in the Expansion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[BlackJaw]

Ok, so some clarifications:

Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?

If he's not running silent, it doesn't seem like a smart idea to brute force. Why not sleaze? Then the victim would never know he was marked in the first place?

But I don't like that idea, because it requires a test to see the mark, and a test to spot the icon. Or maybe Matrix Perception just gives you a bunch of hits that you can distribute however you like. I guess I'd be okay if you could spend your hits on doing both things at once. That makes sense, right?

It's probably not a smart idea, but I'm just trying to understand the rules, so sometimes that means asking odd questions.
Also, there seems to be some confusion here about the marks. Marks can not be tracked, but they can be recognized. If you've seen the persona of someone, you can recognize their marks. Page 220: "Usually, you can only recognize a mark if you have already seen the persona responsible for the mark, or if you’re familiar with his or her marking style."
My thought here was that the character got hit by a Brute Force attack (so they are aware they were attacked), looks at (matrix perception) the mark that got slapped on them, recognizes it as someone they had seen before (an assumption for the sake of argument), and then can specifically look for the persona.

However, a lot people pointed out that "looking for the icon that just attacked me" would be a viable, and much faster, way to locate the persona, and if they aren't running Silent, it shouldn't be to hard.

Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.

As far as I'm aware the only thing that is exempt from the 100m rules are hosts. It would be helpful if you could point out a section of the book that specifies that it only applies to devices.

Page 235, emphasis mine: "You can automatically spot the icons of devices that are not running silent within 100 meters of your physical location. "

Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example?

Yes to the first part. No to the second; drones can't run agents.

Drones have program slots that explicitly allowed to run Cyberprograms and Autosofts. Page 269, emphasis mine: "A drone has a number of slots to use for autosofts and cyberprograms equal to half its Device Rating, rounded up."

Question 9: Sprites lack a physical form so they can't ever use the direct connection exploit to help gain entrance to a host system?

They should be able to use a data tap to "hardline" in to a device, like a TM would.

Page 440, emphasis mine: "Data Tap: You use this hacking tool by attaching it to a data cable. Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can use it via universal data connector. Any device directly connected to the data tap also has a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct Connections, p. 232) and vice versa. " How exactly is the bodiless sprite hooking into the Universal Data Connector? The wireless function on the Data Tap doesn't help either: It's just a self destruct.

[Jack VII]

Drones have program slots that explicitly allowed to run Cyberprograms and Autosofts. Page 269, emphasis mine: "A drone has a number of slots to use for autosofts and cyberprograms equal to half its Device Rating, rounded up."

Just note that agents would be a bit odd running on a drone as agents specifically take their Matrix Attributes from the devices on which they are running. Since drones do not have Attack or Sleaze ratings, neither do any agents running on them.

With that said, it seems like they could do what you're suggesting (Matrix Perception checks). While the beginning text specifies "deck" the rest of the text frequently references "devices" rather than specifying decks.

[BlackJaw]

Just note that agents would be a bit odd running on a drone as agents specifically take their Matrix Attributes from the devices on which they are running. Since drones do not have Attack or Sleaze ratings, neither do any agents running on them.

Same issue running an Agent on a RCC, but agents can be useful for more than hacking (Attack & Sleaze):

• An agent set to make constant matrix perception rolls is far better than a Signal Scanner because it has a range of 100 meters instead of 20, and it can look for the number of hidden icons where signal scanners only attempt to spot icons that come within 20m. It can also be set to examine icons it finds, which may reveal they are being altered by a Wrapper program, something else a Signal Scanner can't do. In short, an agent can know it isn't seeing icons, or that the icon it is seeing have an illegal look, where a signal scanner either sees them or doesn't, and at shorter range. It's also a lot more expensive, and as an active persona on the gridspace it can be attacked by a hacker in a way that a signal scanner on WAN can't without first cracking into the host. The signal scanner (in a WAN) is also sharing it's spotting information with the Host system, while the agent is it's own persona, and at best can alert the Spider on duty if it finds something, but the Spider will still have to come look on his own.
• Agents can be set to be in Full Matrix Defense 24/7, essentially applying their rating (as their Willpower) to all matrix defense rolls for the drone (or other device) it's running on. This includes the defense roll to resist being spotted while running silent. It's like having a defense only sleaze ratting and a boost to it's firewall all in one program slot, although this trick doesn't work on cyberdecks while the decker is using them because the decker get his own persona, and similarly it doesn't work on drones or vehicles while the rigger is jumped into them because the vehicle icon is replaced by the rigger's persona.
• Agents can be used for Matrix Searches, effectively getting their rating x2 as a dicepool. It may not be as good a real person with training and decent logic, but you can order the agent to do the search with a simple message while doing other things.
• Wacky Abuse of the Rules: An agent running on a drone (or other device) generates a persona from that device. As a persona, it may enter a host. This removes the device icon from the standard grid view of the matrix, making it harder to locate and hack. This feels abusive/silly to me, and probably wasn't intended.

[Jack VII]

Same issue running an Agent on a RCC, but agents can be useful for more than hacking (Attack & Sleaze):[list]

[*]Agents can be set to be in Full Matrix Defense 24/7, essentially applying their rating (as their Willpower) to all matrix defense rolls for the drone (or other device) it's running on. This includes the defense roll to resist being spotted while running silent. It's like having a defense only sleaze ratting and a boost to it's firewall all in one program slot, although this trick doesn't work on cyberdecks while the decker is using them because the decker get his own persona, and similarly it doesn't work on drones or vehicles while the rigger is jumped into them because the vehicle icon is replaced by the rigger's persona.

If you're talking about Full Matrix Defense, that only works if you are the owner, which the agent is not.

As a general comment, I also didn't say they weren't useful, just that running an agent in a drone (or really any other device that doesn't have an Attack or Sleaze attribute) just limits their utility somewhat.

[BlackJaw]

If you're talking about Full Matrix Defense, that only works if you are the owner, which the agent is not.

I disagree.
Matrix Defense isn't about owners so much as about who rolls the dice, which is typically the owner, but in this case, the agent rolls for itself.
Page 240: "Whenever you make a defense test against a Matrix Action, add your Willpower to the dice pool (or add it again if it’s already in there)."
The agent is run on a drone. It generates a persona that replaces the device icon (the drone's device icon) but it's matrix condition monitor is the device's matrix condition monitor (the drone's) and it's matrix attributes are those of the drone too. The agent has it's own attributes and skills and rolls for itself. The agent is set to always take Full Matrix Defense for it's first action. An enemy decker attacks the agent/drone. It's defending itself (it's own persona) so it gets the bonus dice.

[Jack VII]

I disagree.
Matrix Defense isn't about owners so much as about who rolls the dice, which is typically the owner, but in this case, the agent rolls for itself.
Page 240: "Whenever you make a defense test against a Matrix Action, add your Willpower to the dice pool (or add it again if it’s already in there)."
The agent is run on a drone. It generates a persona that replaces the device icon (the drone's device icon) but it's matrix condition monitor is the device's matrix condition monitor (the drone's) and it's matrix attributes are those of the drone too. The agent has it's own attributes and skills and rolls for itself. The agent is set to always take Full Matrix Defense for it's first action. An enemy decker attacks the agent/drone. It's defending itself (it's own persona) so it gets the bonus dice.

The Full Matrix Defense action indicates:

Marks Required: Owner

I don't think an agent can be an owner of anything, even itself.

ETA: Looking at it further, I think an agent (by RAW) can be an owner. The only requirement for ownership is a persona (which is odd for someone who, say, doesn't have a commlink). So theoretically, one could transfer ownership from yourself to an agent or IC, for instance. I'm not exactly sure how that would work and I don't think it's intended, but hey, it's there.

[BlackJaw]

I would also argue that an agent's persona doesn't replace the device icon. If it did, how would a decker form a persona and have an agent form a persona from the same device, which is clearly intended?

The book nails these ones down already, as per Page 235, emphasis mine: "Some personas are agents, performing tasks on behalf of their owners. Agents running alone on a device replace the device icon the same way a living user does. If you’re running an agent along with your persona, it appears with its own separate persona, even though you’re using the same device."

EDIT: Looks like I'm responding to a section you edited out. I'm posting it anyway as a clarification for others of my thinking.

ETA: Looking at it further, I think an agent (by RAW) can be an owner. The only requirement for ownership is a persona (which is odd for someone who, say, doesn't have a commlink). So theoretically, one could transfer ownership from yourself to an agent or IC, for instance. I'm not exactly sure how that would work and I don't think it's intended, but hey, it's there.

Actually you may be on to something here. Page 237: "Note that you can’t change the owner of a persona or a host. So sorry, chummer—you can’t steal an entire Stuffer Shack with a quick hack."

Hmmm... so that means an agent can't take Full Matrix Defense on it's own behalf, but the owner of a the agent can take the action his agent's behalf.

[DeathStrobe]

Drones have program slots that explicitly allowed to run Cyberprograms and Autosofts. Page 269, emphasis mine: "A drone has a number of slots to use for autosofts and cyberprograms equal to half its Device Rating, rounded up."

Drones can't run agents. They can only run the lists of cyber programs found on p269.

Page 440, emphasis mine: "Data Tap: You use this hacking tool by attaching it to a data cable. Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can use it via universal data connector. Any device directly connected to the data tap also has a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct Connections, p. 232) and vice versa. " How exactly is the bodiless sprite hooking into the Universal Data Connector? The wireless function on the Data Tap doesn't help either: It's just a self destruct.

There is some ambiguity if a Data Tap can or cannot give direct connection. It would be dumb if it can't since the sample TM has them.

[BlackJaw]

Drones can't run agents. They can only run the lists of cyber programs found on p269.

From page 269, right before the list you mention: "Here’s a list of handy programs for the savvy rigger and their basic function"
Sounds more like a recommended list than a restriction to me.

There is some ambiguity if a Data Tap can or cannot give direct connection. It would be dumb if it can't since the sample TM has them.

I'd certinaly prefer them to work as you describe.

[RHat]

Which is why, as a Technomancer, you get a Datajack installed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Doesn't do the job. You cannot connect a cable to your Living Persona. And even if it did work, it would be in the "something's wrong" pile.

[BlackJaw]

Doesn't do the job. You cannot connect a cable to your Living Persona. And even if it did work, it would be in the "something's wrong" pile.

So a Mage that buys fancy cyber eyes can use them to target spells because they are paid for with essence, but a Technomancer that gets a data jack or VCR can't use them? Where does it actually say that?

All I've found is the section on Personas, where you can't have more than one, but the datajack (or VCR) are devices you generate persona on. They are plugs into your brain. As are trodes for that matter. In a Technomancer's case, the brain is what generates the living persona. It would seem viable to me.

[Smash]

Drones can't run agents. They can only run the lists of cyber programs found on p269.

As agents are persona's they control devices in exactly the same way as you would. What is debateable is if they can 'Jump in' because they don't have a VCR, but given that they are entirely matrix entities this may not need to be a requirement.

At the very least they can sit in VR and remote drones from your deck.

[RHat]

So a Mage that buys fancy cyber eyes can use them to target spells because they are paid for with essence, but a Technomancer that gets a data jack or VCR can't use them? Where does it actually say that?

All I've found is the section on Personas, where you can't have more than one, but the datajack (or VCR) are devices you generate persona on. They are plugs into your brain. As are trodes for that matter. In a Technomancer's case, the brain is what generates the living persona. It would seem viable to me.

It's actually been made abundantly clear, previously, that the Living Persona is NOT the brain. There may be some connection there, but it isn't the brain itself.

Note, of course, that it doesn't say anywhere that a datajack counts as plugging a cable into the Living Persona. There's a proper fix for this, of course - take the functionality of SR4's Skinlink Echo, and make it basic for technomancers.