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BlackJaw
I think I have a decent handle on the 5th edition matrix rules, but I've got a few questions, particularly with sprites. I suspect a lot of these don't have an official answer right now.

At the moment, the matrix can be thought of as a massive "grid space" full of device icons that roughly correspond to the location of devices in the real world. There are other icons as well: file icons appear in/on the device icons, but can not exist in the grid alone, host icons are massive and typically floating in the sky, although some (like the host for each local Stuffer Shack) appear lower to the horizon corresponding to their real world counter part's location. There are also Persona icons for active matrix users, agents, and sprites, which zip around interacting with icons and coming and going out of host systems.

Device icons are tied to the location of the device they represent, but persona icons can move around. Most persona icons replace the device they are based on, so a decker or agent running on a cyberdeck replaces the deck device icon with their persona. Living Personas and sprites do not have a device, so they are pure persona or nothing. Living Personas do still have a physical location, while sprites do not.

You can detect non-silent running icons for devices within 100 meters of your physical location. The rules are explicitly device icons, and it's measured from your physical location, not where you persona has zipped off to.

Unlike astral projecting characters, there is no movement speed for Personas. If you succeed on the matrix perception test to locate an icon beyond 100 meters, or automatically locate a host, you just sort of zip straight to it (or maybe pull it to you), but you don't get to see or interact with any of the other local device icons that may be near that icon because it's more than 100 meters away from you physical body... unless of course you spot them or already had them spotted, as you can always see/find icons you already have spotted, especially those you have marked or are the owner of.

Question 1: If you located the commlink icon for the target you intended to extract, you wouldn't be able to look around at the local grid space to see icons for his body guards or security on his building (unless you already had them spotted,) although you could attempt to look for such things with a matrix perception test?

Question 2a: A decker decides to attack a rival's persona. They aren't within 100 meters of each other. The decker makes a matrix perception test to locate & spot his rival (lets say in gridspace, not a host) and throws a dataspike at him. A successful attack action alerts the target on a success, but do not point point or describe the attacker. Even though our attacking decker isn't running silent, the victim of the attack doesn't know who attacked him or where it came from?
Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?
Question 2c: Two deckers sitting at oposite ends of a bar decide to have a matrix duel. Although they are within 100 meters of each other, unless they had previously spotted the other's persona icon, they can't automatically see each other in grid space because persona icons replace device icons, and the 100 meter rule only applies to device icons?

Question 3: Sprites have no physical location, so therefore they can't automatically detect icons within 100 meters ever?

Question 4: Sprites also are their own persona with their own marks/etc so they don't automatically share spotting information with their owner?

Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example?

Question 7: A registered sprite can be orders to use a sprite power on an icon, and this counts as 1 task which lasts until it's instructions are changed. Sprites don't sleep, and registered sprites don't accrue an OS score simply for existing, so the sprite will continue it's task indefinitely? I mean, eventually the device icon might go offline, the sprite might be attacked and destroyed, and even asking the sprite to change between hidden and public mode would be a "change," but in theory, it could go for a LONG time.

Question 8: Icons are things on the grid, not nodes you can be inside (like they were in 4th edition) so if you ordered a sprite to maintain a power on a device, it would always be next to the device icon in grid space, but because they have no physical counterpart, this doesn't make it possible to spot them within 100 meters, and because they have no device, you can't spot them with signal scanner at all. In short, they are only possible to spot if you specifically go look for a specific one with a matrix perception test, or if they are in a host system with you?

Question 9: Sprites lack a physical form so they can't ever use the direct connection exploit to help gain entrance to a host system?

Question 10: Device icons in a WAN are located inside a host, and are not accesible from outside the host, so for a Sprite to interact with one at all, it would need to enter the host normally (getting a mark on it one way or another) or if it's registered, fade back into the resonance, have you (the technomancer) enter the host, and then recall it from the background resonance... or of course be compiled in the host in the first place.

Question 12: Tracking or having GOD descend on a sprite gives away the location of the technomancer that compiled it. Because sprites don't run programs, the Stealth cyberprogram can't prevent this. Does a Technomancer with the Echo of the Stealth program gain some protection from this, or does that only apply to track/convergence on him and not his sprites?

Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.

Question 13: The programs running on a device you use to generate your persona are still visible on your persona (with a matrix perception test), otherwise how could they be targeted for a the Crash program action?

EDITED HERE

Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?
Question 14b: Assuming the answer to 14a is "no where in the rules is it banned," couldn't they also therefore use a Trode-Net & fiber optic cable to get a DNI direct link to a device they are trying to hack?
Lobo0705
I'll answer the questions to the best of my ability - YMMV on the quality of answers wink.gif

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
I think I have a decent handle on the 5th edition matrix rules, but I've got a few questions, particularly with sprites. I suspect a lot of these don't have an official answer right now.

At the moment, the matrix can be thought of as a massive "grid space" full of device icons that roughly correspond to the location of devices in the real world. There are other icons as well: file icons appear in/on the device icons, but can not exist in the grid alone, host icons are massive and typically floating in the sky, although some (like the host for each local Stuffer Shack) appear lower to the horizon corresponding to their real world counter part's location. There are also Persona icons for active matrix users, agents, and sprites, which zip around interacting with icons and coming and going out of host systems.

Device icons are tied to the location of the device they represent, but persona icons can move around. Most persona icons replace the device they are based on, so a decker or agent running on a cyberdeck replaces the deck device icon with their persona. Living Personas and sprites do not have a device, so they are pure persona or nothing. Living Personas do still have a physical location, while sprites do not.


I agree with everything you said so far.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
You can detect non-silent running icons for devices within 100 meters of your physical location. The rules are explicitly device icons, and it's measured from your physical location, not where you persona has zipped off to.

Unlike astral projecting characters, there is no movement speed for Personas. If you succeed on the matrix perception test to locate an icon beyond 100 meters, or automatically locate a host, you just sort of zip straight to it (or maybe pull it to you), but you don't get to see or interact with any of the other local device icons that may be near that icon because it's more than 100 meters away from you physical body... unless of course you spot them or already had them spotted, as you can always see/find icons you already have spotted, especially those you have marked or are the owner of.


A minor quibble, in that you automatically detect non-silent running icons, and not that you can detect them.

With the second point, I believe that your persona is always in one spot. You don't actually move anywhere in the matrix (as far as I can tell) - unless you go into a Host - and even then, you don't actually go anywhere, you are just shifting perception to see the items in that Host. If, for instance, I want to find the icon for my friend's commlink 1km away, and I make a Matrix Perception test, I can now see that icon. It doesn't change my current perception - I don't see objects within 100 meters of his commlink's icon now, I still see all the icons that are within 100 meters of me.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
Question 1: If you located the commlink icon for the target you intended to extract, you wouldn't be able to look around at the local grid space to see icons for his body guards or security on his building (unless you already had them spotted,) although you could attempt to look for such things with a matrix perception test?


Assuming it is more than 100 meters from you, you would not spot the bodyguards or security icons, unless you made Matrix Perception tests - and you would need to define your Matrix Perception tests - i.e. "Find all commlinks within 100meters of this device" - at which point you are going to get random commlinks equal to the number of hits. If you knew what type of commlink they were using, you could say "Find all Meta Links within 100 meters of that device" (Note the distance could be anything - 1 meter, 50 meters, etc.)

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
Question 2a: A decker decides to attack a rival's persona. They aren't within 100 meters of each other. The decker makes a matrix perception test to locate & spot his rival (lets say in gridspace, not a host) and throws a dataspike at him. A successful attack action alerts the target on a success, but do not point point or describe the attacker. Even though our attacking decker isn't running silent, the victim of the attack doesn't know who attacked him or where it came from?


The exact sentence is:

"If you succeed with an Attack action, your target
becomes aware that it is under attack by another icon,
but it doesn’t automatically spot you. It will most likely
actively search for you on its next action, although it
will almost always alert its owner to the attack and (if
it’s a host) launch IC, depending on the owner’s preferences
and the gamemaster’s judgment."

The way I interpret it, (and I could be wrong) is that if there is a reason for it NOT to automatically spot you - i.e. you are over 100 meters (even if you are not running silent) or if you are within 100 meters and ARE running silent, the successful attack does not mean it doesn't have to make a Matrix Perception to see you. If you are within 100 meters and not running silent, I believe not only person who was attacked would see you. If not, then he would have to make a Matrix Perception test "Find the icon that just attacked me."



QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?


It says that the Marks are specific to you, so only you can put Marks on a target (i.e. someone else cannot mark a target for you) but it isn't an Astral Signature - you can't use it to trace it back like that. The way it would work would be, you use Brute Force to mark a target, they could make a Matrix Perception to "Find the target that just attacked me."



QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
Question 2c: Two deckers sitting at oposite ends of a bar decide to have a matrix duel. Although they are within 100 meters of each other, unless they had previously spotted the other's persona icon, they can't automatically see each other in grid space because persona icons replace device icons, and the 100 meter rule only applies to device icons?


I disagree. You are still using a device to access the Matrix.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example?


Yes, it makes Matrix Perception tests the same way a decker would.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.


The way the rules are written, that is correct.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
Question 13: The programs running on a device you use to generate your persona are still visible on your persona (with a matrix perception test), otherwise how could they be targeted for a the Crash program action?

They are something you can see with a Matrix Perception test that says "Find the programs that Persona is running."

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 01:03 PM) *
Question 3: Sprites have no physical location, so therefore they can't automatically detect icons within 100 meters ever?

Question 4: Sprites also are their own persona with their own marks/etc so they don't automatically share spotting information with their owner?

Question 7: A registered sprite can be orders to use a sprite power on an icon, and this counts as 1 task which lasts until it's instructions are changed. Sprites don't sleep, and registered sprites don't accrue an OS score simply for existing, so the sprite will continue it's task indefinitely? I mean, eventually the device icon might go offline, the sprite might be attacked and destroyed, and even asking the sprite to change between hidden and public mode would be a "change," but in theory, it could go for a LONG time.

Question 8: Icons are things on the grid, not nodes you can be inside (like they were in 4th edition) so if you ordered a sprite to maintain a power on a device, it would always be next to the device icon in grid space, but because they have no physical counterpart, this doesn't make it possible to spot them within 100 meters, and because they have no device, you can't spot them with signal scanner at all. In short, they are only possible to spot if you specifically go look for a specific one with a matrix perception test, or if they are in a host system with you?

Question 9: Sprites lack a physical form so they can't ever use the direct connection exploit to help gain entrance to a host system?

Question 10: Device icons in a WAN are located inside a host, and are not accesible from outside the host, so for a Sprite to interact with one at all, it would need to enter the host normally (getting a mark on it one way or another) or if it's registered, fade back into the resonance, have you (the technomancer) enter the host, and then recall it from the background resonance... or of course be compiled in the host in the first place.

Question 12: Tracking or having GOD descend on a sprite gives away the location of the technomancer that compiled it. Because sprites don't run programs, the Stealth cyberprogram can't prevent this. Does a Technomancer with the Echo of the Stealth program gain some protection from this, or does that only apply to track/convergence on him and not his sprites?

Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?
Question 14b: Assuming the answer to 14a is "no where in the rules is it banned," couldn't they also therefore use a Trode-Net & fiber optic cable to get a DNI direct link to a device they are trying to hack?


I will defer this to someone else, as I have no interest in Technomancers - they do not exist in my games smile.gif
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 24 2014, 11:03 AM) *
Question 1: If you located the commlink icon for the target you intended to extract, you wouldn't be able to look around at the local grid space to see icons for his body guards or security on his building (unless you already had them spotted,) although you could attempt to look for such things with a matrix perception test?

I'd say you can. You'll have to make a Matrix Perception test to find out what the icon is, but there is no reason that you can't look at the icon right next to your target to find out exactly what it is. You just don't get a free pass at it, since there is noise that is making the icon slightly difficult to make out.

Question 2a: A decker decides to attack a rival's persona. They aren't within 100 meters of each other. The decker makes a matrix perception test to locate & spot his rival (lets say in gridspace, not a host) and throws a dataspike at him. A successful attack action alerts the target on a success, but do not point point or describe the attacker. Even though our attacking decker isn't running silent, the victim of the attack doesn't know who attacked him or where it came from?
This is a grey part of the rules. The victim should probably notice the icon that had just attacked him, if the attacker isn't running silent. But by RAW, the victim might not know, and would probably need to make a Matrix Perception test to find the attacker (looking for the icon that just attacked him).

Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?
If he's not running silent, it doesn't seem like a smart idea to brute force. Why not sleaze? Then the victim would never know he was marked in the first place?

But I don't like that idea, because it requires a test to see the mark, and a test to spot the icon. Or maybe Matrix Perception just gives you a bunch of hits that you can distribute however you like. I guess I'd be okay if you could spend your hits on doing both things at once. That makes sense, right?

Question 2c: Two deckers sitting at oposite ends of a bar decide to have a matrix duel. Although they are within 100 meters of each other, unless they had previously spotted the other's persona icon, they can't automatically see each other in grid space because persona icons replace device icons, and the 100 meter rule only applies to device icons?
No...the 100 meter applies to persona's as well. Expect for sprites because they're magical and can't be effected by noise.

Question 3: Sprites have no physical location, so therefore they can't automatically detect icons within 100 meters ever?
Or the opposite is true, and they can see all icons regardless of distance. I go with that they're magical and don't suffer noise from distance and can spot anything.

Question 4: Sprites also are their own persona with their own marks/etc so they don't automatically share spotting information with their owner?
They should be able to share spotting data, since the TM and sprite share a mental link. But it doesn't mean that a TM gets to automatically see a stealthed icon just because their sprite spots it.

Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example?
Yes to the first part. No to the second; drones can't run agents.

Question 7: A registered sprite can be orders to use a sprite power on an icon, and this counts as 1 task which lasts until it's instructions are changed. Sprites don't sleep, and registered sprites don't accrue an OS score simply for existing, so the sprite will continue it's task indefinitely? I mean, eventually the device icon might go offline, the sprite might be attacked and destroyed, and even asking the sprite to change between hidden and public mode would be a "change," but in theory, it could go for a LONG time.
Assuming that the sprite isn't doing anything illegal, yes. Other wise, it'll start building up OS, and will sooner or later get hit with convergence.


Question 8: Icons are things on the grid, not nodes you can be inside (like they were in 4th edition) so if you ordered a sprite to maintain a power on a device, it would always be next to the device icon in grid space, but because they have no physical counterpart, this doesn't make it possible to spot them within 100 meters, and because they have no device, you can't spot them with signal scanner at all. In short, they are only possible to spot if you specifically go look for a specific one with a matrix perception test, or if they are in a host system with you?
I don't think a sprite needs to stay with a device to continue to affect it with a sprite power.

Though it would make sense that you need to do a Matrix perception test to see a sprite, not because its hard to see it, but because you'll have no idea what its icon is other wise.

Question 9: Sprites lack a physical form so they can't ever use the direct connection exploit to help gain entrance to a host system?
They should be able to use a data tap to "hardline" in to a device, like a TM would.

Question 10: Device icons in a WAN are located inside a host, and are not accesible from outside the host, so for a Sprite to interact with one at all, it would need to enter the host normally (getting a mark on it one way or another) or if it's registered, fade back into the resonance, have you (the technomancer) enter the host, and then recall it from the background resonance... or of course be compiled in the host in the first place.
Yes.

Question 11: Tracking or having GOD descend on a sprite gives away the location of the technomancer that compiled it. Because sprites don't run programs, the Stealth cyberprogram can't prevent this. Does a Technomancer with the Echo of the Stealth program gain some protection from this, or does that only apply to track/convergence on him and not his sprites?
I'd say a TM with the sneak echo is immune to the trace from convergence on a sprite, if only because echoes are really expensive.

Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.
Maybe! You might need to do a Matrix Search instead. Rules are unclear.

Question 13: The programs running on a device you use to generate your persona are still visible on your persona (with a matrix perception test), otherwise how could they be targeted for a the Crash program action?
Yes. Programs will look like accessories on the persona. Like a sword or flashlight. If you are crashing a program, you're targeting something like that on the persona.

Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?
Where the hell did you hear that? That's dumb. There is no reason they can't use cyberware to be a rigger or get -1 noise. That'd be dumb if they have to hurt their resonance and get nothing out of it.

Question 14b: Assuming the answer to 14a is "no where in the rules is it banned," couldn't they also therefore use a Trode-Net & fiber optic cable to get a DNI direct link to a device they are trying to hack?
Yes.
Smash
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 1: If you located the commlink icon for the target you intended to extract, you wouldn't be able to look around at the local grid space to see icons for his body guards or security on his building (unless you already had them spotted,) although you could attempt to look for such things with a matrix perception test?


I don't believe you can based on those parameters alone. I think if the comlink can provide you with information about the other icons around it then I guess you could. That would totally be up to the GM and whether they believe that this sort of information would be available. I would think that if you hacked a Deck that was providing overwatch for a groups gear then this would be possible.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 2a: A decker decides to attack a rival's persona. They aren't within 100 meters of each other. The decker makes a matrix perception test to locate & spot his rival (lets say in gridspace, not a host) and throws a dataspike at him. A successful attack action alerts the target on a success, but do not point point or describe the attacker. Even though our attacking decker isn't running silent, the victim of the attack doesn't know who attacked him or where it came from?


The grid differentiates those within and outside 100m. Within seems to imply that you don't need to know specific information regarding icons, where as outside of 100m you do. I suspect that your deck would be able to pinpoint the icon within 100m that attacked it in the same fantastical way it knows the location of icons generally (some kind of fantastic triangulation that relies on one point rather than 3-4)

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?


Seems reasonable as long as they spot the mark initially.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 2c: Two deckers sitting at oposite ends of a bar decide to have a matrix duel. Although they are within 100 meters of each other, unless they had previously spotted the other's persona icon, they can't automatically see each other in grid space because persona icons replace device icons, and the 100 meter rule only applies to device icons?


The 100m rule applies to everything besides hosts (and that one is debatable).

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 3: Sprites have no physical location, so therefore they can't automatically detect icons within 100 meters ever?

Question 4: Sprites also are their own persona with their own marks/etc so they don't automatically share spotting information with their owner?


i'll leave sprites alone because i have chosen not to familiarise myself with technomancers as of yet.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example??


Yes and yes. As long as they don't require attack or sleaze to perform any of their actions.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.


As far as I'm aware the only thing that is exempt from the 100m rules are hosts. It would be helpful if you could point out a section of the book that specifies that it only applies to devices.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 13: The programs running on a device you use to generate your persona are still visible on your persona (with a matrix perception test), otherwise how could they be targeted for a the Crash program action?


Indeed. Net hits can reveal all these kinds of information.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?


I haven't seem the exclusion anywhere. Perhaps it stems from the fact that you lose resonance to do it and so it's not desirable.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:03 AM) *
Question 14b: Assuming the answer to 14a is "no where in the rules is it banned," couldn't they also therefore use a Trode-Net & fiber optic cable to get a DNI direct link to a device they are trying to hack?


I would assume that they could connect a comlink to a device and use it as a link, but again i have not read enough about them to be sure.
RHat
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Mar 24 2014, 07:51 PM) *
Question 14a: It's been said that technomancers can't gain the benefits of a VCR or Datajack because they use a living persona, but is that actually spelled out in the rules? As long as they are generating their "Living" Persona from their brain, and not a device like a Cyberdeck, Commlink, or RCC, shouldn't they be able to make use of implants they paid essence for?
Where the hell did you hear that? That's dumb. There is no reason they can't use cyberware to be a rigger or get -1 noise. That'd be dumb if they have to hurt their resonance and get nothing out of it.


It's actually less than perfectly clear how they interact with those augmentations. What is clear, however, is that they can't ever benefit from a direct connection, because they can't hook a cable to their Living Persona.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 24 2014, 07:44 PM) *
It's actually less than perfectly clear how they interact with those augmentations. What is clear, however, is that they can't ever benefit from a direct connection, because they can't hook a cable to their Living Persona.

That's dumb, and cannot possibly be RAI, and I highly question if its RAW. Since a TM can use a deck, presumably without needing DNI, since being a TM gives you DNI. Why would there be an unnecessarily vague ruling that alternate forms of DNI would not be able to work with the Living Persona?
RHat
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Mar 24 2014, 08:52 PM) *
That's dumb, and cannot possibly be RAI, and I highly question if its RAW. Since a TM can use a deck, presumably without needing DNI, since being a TM gives you DNI. Why would there be an unnecessarily vague ruling that alternate forms of DNI would not be able to work with the Living Persona?


*shrug* Just know it's been argued about. I'd generally conclude it's wireless DNI; I do wonder why they don't just inherently have DNI though.

The direct connection thing, though, is pretty clear and a big damn problem.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 24 2014, 08:54 PM) *
*shrug* Just know it's been argued about. I'd generally conclude it's wireless DNI; I do wonder why they don't just inherently have DNI though.

The direct connection thing, though, is pretty clear and a big damn problem.


Which is why, as a Technomancer, you get a Datajack installed. smile.gif
Happy Trees
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 08:31 AM) *
Which is why, as a Technomancer, you get a Datajack installed. smile.gif

Or immerse and get the touch interface ability.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Happy Trees @ Mar 25 2014, 07:36 AM) *
Or immerse and get the touch interface ability.


Yep, that too. smile.gif
Is that still available in SR5? Must have missed it in the list.
Jaid
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 09:00 AM) *
Yep, that too. smile.gif
Is that still available in SR5? Must have missed it in the list.

nope. not yet, anyways.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 25 2014, 08:28 AM) *
nope. not yet, anyways.


Did not think so... We will see what we get in the Expansion. eek.gif wobble.gif
BlackJaw
Ok, so some clarifications:

QUOTE
QUOTE
Question 2b: If our attacking decker had tried to mark his victim with brute force instead (maybe to get more punch of the dataspikes), the victim could look at the mark placed on him, and if he recognized it, could then theoretically make a matrix perception test to locate/spot his assailant and then fight back?

If he's not running silent, it doesn't seem like a smart idea to brute force. Why not sleaze? Then the victim would never know he was marked in the first place?

But I don't like that idea, because it requires a test to see the mark, and a test to spot the icon. Or maybe Matrix Perception just gives you a bunch of hits that you can distribute however you like. I guess I'd be okay if you could spend your hits on doing both things at once. That makes sense, right?

It's probably not a smart idea, but I'm just trying to understand the rules, so sometimes that means asking odd questions.
Also, there seems to be some confusion here about the marks. Marks can not be tracked, but they can be recognized. If you've seen the persona of someone, you can recognize their marks. Page 220: "Usually, you can only recognize a mark if you have already seen the persona responsible for the mark, or if you’re familiar with his or her marking style."
My thought here was that the character got hit by a Brute Force attack (so they are aware they were attacked), looks at (matrix perception) the mark that got slapped on them, recognizes it as someone they had seen before (an assumption for the sake of argument), and then can specifically look for the persona.

However, a lot people pointed out that "looking for the icon that just attacked me" would be a viable, and much faster, way to locate the persona, and if they aren't running Silent, it shouldn't be to hard.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Question 12: You can automatically spot all the device icons within 100 meters of your physical space, but it's limited to device icons, so you can automatically see the commlink of the guy sitting on the bus three rows ahead of you, but you can't see his file icons unless you make a matrix perception test to look for them, because they aren't devices.

As far as I'm aware the only thing that is exempt from the 100m rules are hosts. It would be helpful if you could point out a section of the book that specifies that it only applies to devices.

Page 235, emphasis mine: "You can automatically spot the icons of devices that are not running silent within 100 meters of your physical location. "

QUOTE
QUOTE
Question 6: Agents are software run on a device (such as a Deck, RCC, Drone, or Vehicle) and therefore have a physical location and can spot icons within 100 meters? An agent program on a drone could wander a building scanning for hidden icons, for example?

Yes to the first part. No to the second; drones can't run agents.

Drones have program slots that explicitly allowed to run Cyberprograms and Autosofts. Page 269, emphasis mine: "A drone has a number of slots to use for autosofts and cyberprograms equal to half its Device Rating, rounded up."

QUOTE
QUOTE
Question 9: Sprites lack a physical form so they can't ever use the direct connection exploit to help gain entrance to a host system?

They should be able to use a data tap to "hardline" in to a device, like a TM would.

Page 440, emphasis mine: "Data Tap: You use this hacking tool by attaching it to a data cable. Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can use it via universal data connector. Any device directly connected to the data tap also has a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct Connections, p. 232) and vice versa. " How exactly is the bodiless sprite hooking into the Universal Data Connector? The wireless function on the Data Tap doesn't help either: It's just a self destruct.
Jack VII
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 08:53 AM) *
Drones have program slots that explicitly allowed to run Cyberprograms and Autosofts. Page 269, emphasis mine: "A drone has a number of slots to use for autosofts and cyberprograms equal to half its Device Rating, rounded up."

Just note that agents would be a bit odd running on a drone as agents specifically take their Matrix Attributes from the devices on which they are running. Since drones do not have Attack or Sleaze ratings, neither do any agents running on them.

With that said, it seems like they could do what you're suggesting (Matrix Perception checks). While the beginning text specifies "deck" the rest of the text frequently references "devices" rather than specifying decks.
BlackJaw
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Mar 25 2014, 10:02 AM) *
Just note that agents would be a bit odd running on a drone as agents specifically take their Matrix Attributes from the devices on which they are running. Since drones do not have Attack or Sleaze ratings, neither do any agents running on them.

Same issue running an Agent on a RCC, but agents can be useful for more than hacking (Attack & Sleaze):
  • An agent set to make constant matrix perception rolls is far better than a Signal Scanner because it has a range of 100 meters instead of 20, and it can look for the number of hidden icons where signal scanners only attempt to spot icons that come within 20m. It can also be set to examine icons it finds, which may reveal they are being altered by a Wrapper program, something else a Signal Scanner can't do. In short, an agent can know it isn't seeing icons, or that the icon it is seeing have an illegal look, where a signal scanner either sees them or doesn't, and at shorter range. It's also a lot more expensive, and as an active persona on the gridspace it can be attacked by a hacker in a way that a signal scanner on WAN can't without first cracking into the host. The signal scanner (in a WAN) is also sharing it's spotting information with the Host system, while the agent is it's own persona, and at best can alert the Spider on duty if it finds something, but the Spider will still have to come look on his own.
  • Agents can be set to be in Full Matrix Defense 24/7, essentially applying their rating (as their Willpower) to all matrix defense rolls for the drone (or other device) it's running on. This includes the defense roll to resist being spotted while running silent. It's like having a defense only sleaze ratting and a boost to it's firewall all in one program slot, although this trick doesn't work on cyberdecks while the decker is using them because the decker get his own persona, and similarly it doesn't work on drones or vehicles while the rigger is jumped into them because the vehicle icon is replaced by the rigger's persona.
  • Agents can be used for Matrix Searches, effectively getting their rating x2 as a dicepool. It may not be as good a real person with training and decent logic, but you can order the agent to do the search with a simple message while doing other things.
  • Wacky Abuse of the Rules: An agent running on a drone (or other device) generates a persona from that device. As a persona, it may enter a host. This removes the device icon from the standard grid view of the matrix, making it harder to locate and hack. This feels abusive/silly to me, and probably wasn't intended.


Jack VII
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 10:21 AM) *
Same issue running an Agent on a RCC, but agents can be useful for more than hacking (Attack & Sleaze):[list]

[*]Agents can be set to be in Full Matrix Defense 24/7, essentially applying their rating (as their Willpower) to all matrix defense rolls for the drone (or other device) it's running on. This includes the defense roll to resist being spotted while running silent. It's like having a defense only sleaze ratting and a boost to it's firewall all in one program slot, although this trick doesn't work on cyberdecks while the decker is using them because the decker get his own persona, and similarly it doesn't work on drones or vehicles while the rigger is jumped into them because the vehicle icon is replaced by the rigger's persona.

If you're talking about Full Matrix Defense, that only works if you are the owner, which the agent is not.

As a general comment, I also didn't say they weren't useful, just that running an agent in a drone (or really any other device that doesn't have an Attack or Sleaze attribute) just limits their utility somewhat.
BlackJaw
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Mar 25 2014, 10:44 AM) *
If you're talking about Full Matrix Defense, that only works if you are the owner, which the agent is not.
I disagree.
Matrix Defense isn't about owners so much as about who rolls the dice, which is typically the owner, but in this case, the agent rolls for itself.
Page 240: "Whenever you make a defense test against a Matrix Action, add your Willpower to the dice pool (or add it again if it’s already in there)."
The agent is run on a drone. It generates a persona that replaces the device icon (the drone's device icon) but it's matrix condition monitor is the device's matrix condition monitor (the drone's) and it's matrix attributes are those of the drone too. The agent has it's own attributes and skills and rolls for itself. The agent is set to always take Full Matrix Defense for it's first action. An enemy decker attacks the agent/drone. It's defending itself (it's own persona) so it gets the bonus dice.
Jack VII
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 10:17 AM) *
I disagree.
Matrix Defense isn't about owners so much as about who rolls the dice, which is typically the owner, but in this case, the agent rolls for itself.
Page 240: "Whenever you make a defense test against a Matrix Action, add your Willpower to the dice pool (or add it again if it’s already in there)."
The agent is run on a drone. It generates a persona that replaces the device icon (the drone's device icon) but it's matrix condition monitor is the device's matrix condition monitor (the drone's) and it's matrix attributes are those of the drone too. The agent has it's own attributes and skills and rolls for itself. The agent is set to always take Full Matrix Defense for it's first action. An enemy decker attacks the agent/drone. It's defending itself (it's own persona) so it gets the bonus dice.

The Full Matrix Defense action indicates:

Marks Required: Owner

I don't think an agent can be an owner of anything, even itself.

ETA: Looking at it further, I think an agent (by RAW) can be an owner. The only requirement for ownership is a persona (which is odd for someone who, say, doesn't have a commlink). So theoretically, one could transfer ownership from yourself to an agent or IC, for instance. I'm not exactly sure how that would work and I don't think it's intended, but hey, it's there.
BlackJaw
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Mar 25 2014, 11:32 AM) *
I would also argue that an agent's persona doesn't replace the device icon. If it did, how would a decker form a persona and have an agent form a persona from the same device, which is clearly intended?
The book nails these ones down already, as per Page 235, emphasis mine: "Some personas are agents, performing tasks on behalf of their owners. Agents running alone on a device replace the device icon the same way a living user does. If you’re running an agent along with your persona, it appears with its own separate persona, even though you’re using the same device."

EDIT: Looks like I'm responding to a section you edited out. I'm posting it anyway as a clarification for others of my thinking.

QUOTE (Jack VII @ Mar 25 2014, 11:32 AM) *
ETA: Looking at it further, I think an agent (by RAW) can be an owner. The only requirement for ownership is a persona (which is odd for someone who, say, doesn't have a commlink). So theoretically, one could transfer ownership from yourself to an agent or IC, for instance. I'm not exactly sure how that would work and I don't think it's intended, but hey, it's there.

Actually you may be on to something here. Page 237: "Note that you can’t change the owner of a persona or a host. So sorry, chummer—you can’t steal an entire Stuffer Shack with a quick hack."

Hmmm... so that means an agent can't take Full Matrix Defense on it's own behalf, but the owner of a the agent can take the action his agent's behalf.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 07:53 AM) *
Drones have program slots that explicitly allowed to run Cyberprograms and Autosofts. Page 269, emphasis mine: "A drone has a number of slots to use for autosofts and cyberprograms equal to half its Device Rating, rounded up."


Drones can't run agents. They can only run the lists of cyber programs found on p269.

QUOTE
Page 440, emphasis mine: "Data Tap: You use this hacking tool by attaching it to a data cable. Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can use it via universal data connector. Any device directly connected to the data tap also has a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct Connections, p. 232) and vice versa. " How exactly is the bodiless sprite hooking into the Universal Data Connector? The wireless function on the Data Tap doesn't help either: It's just a self destruct.

There is some ambiguity if a Data Tap can or cannot give direct connection. It would be dumb if it can't since the sample TM has them.
BlackJaw
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Mar 25 2014, 03:48 PM) *
Drones can't run agents. They can only run the lists of cyber programs found on p269.

From page 269, right before the list you mention: "Here’s a list of handy programs for the savvy rigger and their basic function"
Sounds more like a recommended list than a restriction to me.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Mar 25 2014, 03:48 PM) *
There is some ambiguity if a Data Tap can or cannot give direct connection. It would be dumb if it can't since the sample TM has them.
I'd certinaly prefer them to work as you describe.
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 07:31 AM) *
Which is why, as a Technomancer, you get a Datajack installed. smile.gif


Doesn't do the job. You cannot connect a cable to your Living Persona. And even if it did work, it would be in the "something's wrong" pile.
BlackJaw
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:09 PM) *
Doesn't do the job. You cannot connect a cable to your Living Persona. And even if it did work, it would be in the "something's wrong" pile.

So a Mage that buys fancy cyber eyes can use them to target spells because they are paid for with essence, but a Technomancer that gets a data jack or VCR can't use them? Where does it actually say that?

All I've found is the section on Personas, where you can't have more than one, but the datajack (or VCR) are devices you generate persona on. They are plugs into your brain. As are trodes for that matter. In a Technomancer's case, the brain is what generates the living persona. It would seem viable to me.
Smash
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Mar 26 2014, 07:48 AM) *
Drones can't run agents. They can only run the lists of cyber programs found on p269.


As agents are persona's they control devices in exactly the same way as you would. What is debateable is if they can 'Jump in' because they don't have a VCR, but given that they are entirely matrix entities this may not need to be a requirement.

At the very least they can sit in VR and remote drones from your deck.
RHat
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 04:22 PM) *
So a Mage that buys fancy cyber eyes can use them to target spells because they are paid for with essence, but a Technomancer that gets a data jack or VCR can't use them? Where does it actually say that?

All I've found is the section on Personas, where you can't have more than one, but the datajack (or VCR) are devices you generate persona on. They are plugs into your brain. As are trodes for that matter. In a Technomancer's case, the brain is what generates the living persona. It would seem viable to me.


It's actually been made abundantly clear, previously, that the Living Persona is NOT the brain. There may be some connection there, but it isn't the brain itself.

Note, of course, that it doesn't say anywhere that a datajack counts as plugging a cable into the Living Persona. There's a proper fix for this, of course - take the functionality of SR4's Skinlink Echo, and make it basic for technomancers.
RHat
QUOTE (Smash @ Mar 25 2014, 04:51 PM) *
As agents are persona's they control devices in exactly the same way as you would. What is debateable is if they can 'Jump in' because they don't have a VCR, but given that they are entirely matrix entities this may not need to be a requirement.

At the very least they can sit in VR and remote drones from your deck.


Does the text actually allow for Agents to use autosofts? Because they don't inherently have the skills for this.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 03:08 PM) *
From page 269, right before the list you mention: "Here’s a list of handy programs for the savvy rigger and their basic function"
Sounds more like a recommended list than a restriction to me.

That is not RAI or RAW.

But lets just pretend that it is. A drone can run any cyber program. We now run Decryption and now the drone has a +1 to a drone's Matrix Attack attribute. Maybe we grab the Hammer cyber program too, and now our drone is able to do 3 Matrix damage, not great, but considering how GOD has locked down cyberdecks, why would they allow legally and nonrestricted drones the ability to subvert the Matrix for WAY cheaper then a cyberdeck?

The cheapest deck is 49500¥ Why would you buy the cheapest deck, when you could get the same functionality for WAY cheaper, 1000¥ using a drone?
BlackJaw
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 07:09 PM) *
It's actually been made abundantly clear, previously, that the Living Persona is NOT the brain. There may be some connection there, but it isn't the brain itself.
I admit that Technomancers didn't come up much in the 4th edition game I played in, so this actually surprises me a bit.

QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 07:09 PM) *
Note, of course, that it doesn't say anywhere that a datajack counts as plugging a cable into the Living Persona. There's a proper fix for this, of course - take the functionality of SR4's Skinlink Echo, and make it basic for technomancers.

I'd actually love it if they made the 4th edition "Skin Link" echo standard. It would give technomancers a bit more of an edge in the Techno vs Decker comparisons. Hacking a maglock without having to open it with lockpicking first would be a nice benefit.

I'm just hoping it shows up as an Echo.
BlackJaw
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Mar 25 2014, 07:16 PM) *
But lets just pretend that it is. A drone can run any cyber program. We now run Decryption and now the drone has a +1 to a drone's Matrix Attack attribute. Maybe we grab the Hammer cyber program too, and now our drone is able to do 3 Matrix damage, not great, but considering how GOD has locked down cyberdecks, why would they allow legally and nonrestricted drones the ability to subvert the Matrix for WAY cheaper then a cyberdeck?

The cheapest deck is 49500¥ Why would you buy the cheapest deck, when you could get the same functionality for WAY cheaper, 1000¥ using a drone?

A score of 0 and no score at all aren't the same thing. The Drone has no Attack or Sleaze at all. Running Decryption on a drone does nothing because there is no attack rating to enhance. It would be like handing a power focus to a mundane character. He can hold it, but he can never gain it's magic benefits because he has no magic to enhance.

An RCC or Drone is still limited by the lack of Attack and Sleaze, but they can benefit from a lot of cyberprograms, including those not on the list. Browse for example. The list is just some things that can be helpful for Rigging in particular. Things like Browse and Agents are more general programs.
BlackJaw
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 07:12 PM) *
Does the text actually allow for Agents to use autosofts? Because they don't inherently have the skills for this.

Not at all, as they lack the skills.

Thankfully, the drone still has a pilot rating. The Agent handles the matrix, the Pilot handles the real world. Anyone using matrix perception the Agent persona could see the autosofts active and a hacker could try to crash those if they wanted.

Mind you, I doubt the authors of 5th edition thought this out, but it seems to work ok.
RHat
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 06:25 PM) *
Not at all, as they lack the skills.

Thankfully, the drone still has a pilot rating. The Agent handles the matrix, the Pilot handles the real world. Anyone using matrix perception the Agent persona could see the autosofts active and a hacker could try to crash those if they wanted.

Mind you, I doubt the authors of 5th edition thought this out, but it seems to work ok.


I'm not seeing a purpose to that, though... What good is this expected to do you?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 03:09 PM) *
Doesn't do the job. You cannot connect a cable to your Living Persona. And even if it did work, it would be in the "something's wrong" pile.


You don't need to... you Implant a Datajack (thus gaining DNI), then connect the wire to a device using the wire provided by the Datajack. smile.gif

Edited - Corrected Wired from Wireless...
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:32 PM) *
You don't need to... you connect wirelessly to the device and use it to carry your signal down the wire provided by the Datajack. smile.gif


Which means you're not directly connected, and thus don't get to circumvent the protections of slaving or whatever Noise you're dealing with.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 25 2014, 05:17 PM) *
I admit that Technomancers didn't come up much in the 4th edition game I played in, so this actually surprises me a bit.


I'd actually love it if they made the 4th edition "Skin Link" echo standard. It would give technomancers a bit more of an edge in the Techno vs Decker comparisons. Hacking a maglock without having to open it with lockpicking first would be a nice benefit.

I'm just hoping it shows up as an Echo.


Ahhh... Lockpicking - Glad you brought that up.

You do not open locks with Lockpicking. Regardless of the vast number of quotes in the book to the contrary. Why, you may ask? Because in the Errata, Lockpicking has been removed as a Skill. It does not exist. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:34 PM) *
Which means you're not directly connected, and thus don't get to circumvent the protections of slaving or whatever Noise you're dealing with.


It provides DNI, through its implantation to the character, so therefore it IS directly connected to the Technomancer. It has no other choice. And once you have DNI, that direct connection to the hardware provided by the Datajack is good enough to bypass the Slaving and Noise issues you mentioned. smile.gif
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:43 PM) *
It provides DNI, through its implantation to the character, so therefore it IS directly connected to the Technomancer. It has no other choice. And once you have DNI, that direct connection to the hardware provided by the Datajack is good enough to bypass the Slaving and Noise issues you mentioned. smile.gif


DNI and direct connection are not related to each other. A direct connection is achieved by being wired only the whole way through; the moment wireless is an element of your connection, you are not directly connected.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:45 PM) *
DNI and direct connection are not related to each other. A direct connection is achieved by being wired only the whole way through; the moment wireless is an element of your connection, you are not directly connected.


Except that I don't claim to be wireless (though I may have said it earlier - my apologies if so, I will correct that in an Edit). You have DNI through an Implanted Datajack (all it requires is to be implanted). Therefore, with a Datajack, the Technomancer has DNI and can use the Wire provided to gain a Direct Connection to a connected device.
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:50 PM) *
Except that I don't claim to be wireless (though I may have said it earlier - my apologies if so, I will correct that in an Edit). You have DNI through an Implanted Datajack (all it requires is to be implanted). Therefore, with a Datajack, the Technomancer has DNI and can use the Wire provided to gain a Direct Connection to a cojnnected device.


Except that they can't connect the wire to their Living Persona - which, I'll reiterate, isn't the same thing as their brain.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:52 PM) *
Except that they can't connect the wire to their Living Persona - which, I'll reiterate, isn't the same thing as their brain.

They do not have to... they have DNI through the Datajack. Which I will reiterate, is all that is required. *shrug*
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:52 PM) *
They do not have to... they have DNI through the Datajack. Which I will reiterate, is all that is required. *shrug*


But the DNI is not relevant to the question at all.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:53 PM) *
But the DNI is not relevant to the question at all.


The DNI is all that matters. smile.gif
So, what were we talking about anyways? Seems like we shot off on a tangent.
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:57 PM) *
The DNI is all that matters. smile.gif
So, what were we talking about anyways? Seems like we shot off on a tangent.


The tangent is about technomancers and direct connections. And the DNI doesn't matter for that AT ALL, because a DNI is not a part of how you determine if a connection is direct.

The general conversation is pretty broad.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:58 PM) *
We're talking about technomancers and direct connections. And the DNI doesn't matter for that AT ALL.


Ahh Yes... And it does if the Datajack provides Both DNI to the Technomancer and a Cable for Device Connections. smile.gif
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:59 PM) *
Ahh Yes... And it does if the Datajack provides Both DNI to the Technomancer and a Cable for Device Connections. smile.gif


And how, exactly, is it you think that works?
BlackJaw
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 07:31 PM) *
I'm not seeing a purpose to that, though... What good is this expected to do you?

As noted earlier in this thread, an agent is more versatile at matrix perception than a signal scanner (which has a range of 20 meters and either spots an icon or doesn't, with no ability to examine icons or detect the number of hidden icons). You can put an Agent program on a drone, and have the drone patrol (or scout for shadowruner teams) a facility while the Agent is looking for icons, counting hidden icons, examining icons, etc. A useful feature if you facility is larger than 100 meters and/or you spider isn't on site with his deck for the 100 meter rule. It also frees up the Spider for more human friendly tasks while the agent and drone make their automated rounds.

For a while there I thought it could also provide Full Matrix Defense for the drone, but it's been determined that the Agent is not the owner of the drone nor even the owner of itself, so it can't actually take the Full Matrix Defense action.
Moirdryd
While I want to agree with Ty (and probably would let it happen at my table, heck I may go for standard "skinlink" as an extra on my House Rules) I think RHat has the right of it. While the DataJack cable certainly provides a DNI to a Device it has no way of interacting with a Living Persona because a Living Persona cannot master or slave etc. For a Decker the Datajack connects to deck ad then you connect deck (or Jack if wirelessly deck connected) to the Device, thus you have DNI and access to that DNI link through your Persona.

The only RAW of doing it is using Matrix Actions to Control Device the Datajack (no rolls because it's yours) to bridge your Living Persona into the Device.... Of course if you're doing that just take a cheap commlink along and plug that in.
RHat
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Mar 25 2014, 07:22 PM) *
The only RAW of doing it is using Matrix Actions to Control Device the Datajack (no rolls because it's yours) to bridge your Living Persona into the Device.... Of course if you're doing that just take a cheap commlink along and plug that in.


I'm not quite sure how that's supposed to work... Care to elaborate?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Mar 25 2014, 07:22 PM) *
While I want to agree with Ty (and probably would let it happen at my table, heck I may go for standard "skinlink" as an extra on my House Rules) I think RHat has the right of it. While the DataJack cable certainly provides a DNI to a Device it has no way of interacting with a Living Persona because a Living Persona cannot master or slave etc. For a Decker the Datajack connects to deck ad then you connect deck (or Jack if wirelessly deck connected) to the Device, thus you have DNI and access to that DNI link through your Persona.

The only RAW of doing it is using Matrix Actions to Control Device the Datajack (no rolls because it's yours) to bridge your Living Persona into the Device.... Of course if you're doing that just take a cheap commlink along and plug that in.


And yet that Decker obtains DNI how? His mind is not a device. And DNI is a Neural Interface, says so right on the Package... Direct Neural Interface. Direct Connections are not DNI, they are Direct Connections. It is the DNI that matters here. Your living Persona is a construct of the Mind, that is why it is based upon your Mental Attributes.
Smash
QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Mar 26 2014, 11:25 AM) *
Not at all, as they lack the skills.

Thankfully, the drone still has a pilot rating. The Agent handles the matrix, the Pilot handles the real world. Anyone using matrix perception the Agent persona could see the autosofts active and a hacker could try to crash those if they wanted.

Mind you, I doubt the authors of 5th edition thought this out, but it seems to work ok.


This is why it's not an unreasonable assumption that you can replace a pilot with an agent, essentially becoming the pilot (the book does compare the 2). Of-course the RAW does not support this in any way, but this is how it worked in 4th Ed and having an upgrade path makes sense.
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 08:06 PM) *
And yet that Decker obtains DNI how? His mind is not a device. And DNI is a Neural Interface, says so right on the Package... Direct Neural Interface. Direct Connections are not DNI, they are Direct Connections. It is the DNI that matters here. Your living Persona is a construct of the Mind, that is why it is based upon your Mental Attributes.


Actually, as DNI can be wireless, and as you can have a direct connection without DNI, DNI is not an element of direct connections. Direct connections are formed by having a wired-only connection from your device to the device you're looking to hack. There is nothing in the rules to support what you're saying.

But, more broadly, if a technomnacer, as a non-ware-friendly character explicitly referenced in the text as generally staying away from augmentations, must take a datajack in order to have that basic functionality, something is Seriously Wrong. So even if it did work, there'd still be a serious problem.
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