Troll Combat Monster in SR5 Options

[RHat]

Of course, under SR5's recoil rules, your first bullet is causing recoil and thus consumes that free point.

[Jaid]

you get one free regardless of your strength. and you get 1 per 3 points of strength, rounded up. you also get recoil from guns. only one of those 3 groups of sources of recoil compensation are from your strength.

i'm not comparing every single possible source of RC. i'm simply comparing differences. the only difference in RC that his troll can access (apart from the ludicrous double tripod plan) is from strength. i don't need to know the exact values of RC, i merely need to know the difference between the two. he has two more than my character, at chargen (unless i only need one arm, in which case i can fit the RC and armour in right off the bat and still cost about the same as muscle replacement 2. personally, i have no idea why we're presuming this dual-wielding nonsense, i'd rather not have my dicepool chopped in half, but it's what he wanted to go with).

[Umidori]

Of course, under SR5's recoil rules, your first bullet is causing recoil and thus consumes that free point.

They could have just said that the first bullet fired from a gun during a recoil "streak" never suffers recoil, which makes sense because your aim can't physically be thrown off by the recoil of your first shot, because recoil occurs after a bullet leaves the barrel on its final trajectory.

Unfortunately, all I can think of is that they wrote this specifically so they can bring back High Powered Chambering and make it so you suffer 3 recoil on your very first shot, which if uncompensated means you lose 2 dice on your attack test, because fuck physics, amirite? It's the Spinal Tap of firearms - "This gun is so powerful that you can't aim it properly even before the recoil hits you and forces you to have to realign the barrel!"

~Umi

[Cain]

now then, back to cyberlimbs: i don't care about strength. i have no need of it, especially not in a single cyberlimb. so no, i'm not making strength 6 agility 6 cyberlimbs. i'm making a cyberlimb with strength 3, agility 6 via customization (which takes no capacity at all), which costs 30,000 nuyen. it then has options for agility enhancement (per our agreement, the most we can put into this limb now is 1), for 6,500 per point, which can exceed racial maximum. i don't need it to beat your dice pools from chargen, though i can pick it up at chargen if i want. so i can get a pair of strength 3 agility 6 cyberlimbs (that can be upgraded at a later date as funds become available).

You can't do that either; customization just brings the cyberlimb attributes to your meat levels. Since your human only has a Quickness of 3, he has to use Enhancements, which costs Capacity. Also, since Enhancements are capped at 3, the highest quickness you can get is a 6, one higher than the troll.

also, i don't have the slightest clue why you think you have a 7 point advantage on recoil compensation. my guy has (an) arm(s) with strength 3, worth 1 point of RC. your guy has strength 7, worth 3 RC. that is a difference of 2. even if we make the crazy assumption that it's 2 per gun, rather than just being 2 points of RC period, that would make it a difference of only 4. that's not a 7 dice advantage.

If you only have one cyberarm, when you calculate the pools for multi-attacking, you use the lower of the two. And since recoil depends on stance and foot positioning, you could make the argument that you need to use the meat strength when calculating recoil. But because your quickness also drops by 3, your attack pool (before splitting) also drops by three. Between the two, you're going to be rolling seven less dice. That's where you'll be needing Edge to catch up, and as we've established, needing Edge is not good.

and on a side note, the wired reflexes 2 would be the *first* thing to get dropped from the build in any event. 150k nuyen and 3 essence for what, + 2 reflex and + 2 initiative dice? oh hey look, jazz costs 75 nuyen a dose for almost the same benefit. not exactly ideal (especially with the insane and somewhat incomprehensible addiction rules in SR5), but 150,000 nuyen will buy an awful lot of jazz. or, more accurately, will buy you a lot of jazz and a whole bunch of other really useful stuff.

Drugs are bad, mmkay? Seriously, with your low body and willpower, you're going to be failing addiction tests left and right. Forget saving up for augmentations, you'll be spending all your earned nuyen getting your fix and paying for drug therapy.

What's more, you're also proving the point that humans can't do the same thing as trolls. You can't take the same build as I made, turn him human, and make him effective; you're saying that if you tried a radically different approach, you might be equal. That gets into competitive character building, which is a pointless argument. Fact is, I've shown that trolls can be good in areas other than brutes.

also, if your melee skill is purely defensive, i can match that. i have +1 die from agility (which i can upgrade to +2 later once i get a small amount of money), you have +1 die from reach. which equals out, until i spend a small amount of cash on it or you spend a massive amount of cash on it.

I have +2 from Reach. +1 from being a troll, +2 from a telescoping staff; your stun baton has 1, so I net +2. Rather or not you can actually have a good chance of hitting me depends on how many skill points you shoved into a melee skill, but I do have an advantage.

Anyway, you're not proving your point. Your human isn't better at everything, he's roughly equal at most things, and weaker at some things. Overall, the troll is doing very well in comparison, which disproves your point that trolls are inferior. Since the troll is mostly equal, and at an against-type build, your asseritons is proven false.

[RHat]

You can't do that either; customization just brings the cyberlimb attributes to your meat levels. Since your human only has a Quickness of 3, he has to use Enhancements, which costs Capacity. Also, since Enhancements are capped at 3, the highest quickness you can get is a 6, one higher than the troll.

Not how the cyberlimb rules work - you can customize up to your natural maximum, regardless of your natural attribute.

[Umidori]

Not how the cyberlimb rules work - you can customize up to your natural maximum, regardless of your natural attribute.

This is correct, and also how it was in 4E as well.

~Umi

[Jaid]

ok, first off, why are you fixating on multi-attacking? you like missing or something? sure, in absolutely perfect conditions, because you're using full-auto bursts, you'll mow down mooks. in absolutely perfect conditions. range is not short? lose some dice. lighting isn't perfect? lose some dice. forced to shut down your wireless? lose some dice. you've taken some damage? lose some dice.

multi-attacking is very occasionally the best idea. it is not, by any means, always the best idea.

secondly, if for some reason you're fixating on multi-attacking, you don't need multiple weapons. i can multi-attack with a single gun. i split my dice pool in half, just like you. technically, both targets lose the full amount of dodge, just like happens with two.

except that with one gun, i don't need ambidexterity, and i don't need two cyberlimbs.

as to your arguments about needing full body for those things, first off, you could make that argument for EVERYTHING. the very fact that they wrote those rules means they don't intend for everything that involves any other part of your body to use mixed stats. an explicit example is leading an attack with a cyberlimb. now, even more so than with shooting, melee combat requires your full body. if you are just standing there and only moving one arm or one leg, you are going to fail miserably. if i can use the stats for my cyberarm when i'm using my arm for boxing, i can use the stats on my cyberarm when i'm lining up a shot, because while it does use other parts of my body, it is primarily the cyberarm doing the work.

next up, I DIDN'T SAY I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE WIRED 2. what i said is that >>>>>>IF<<<<<<<< i drop anything, it will be the wired reflexes. but i don't really have to, because my costs are nearly identical to yours. if i go with one cyberlimb, which is the reasonable way of doing it, since we're focused on a suboptimal means of using a suboptimal attack method, my cyberlimb can practically start at full upgrade potential (especially if i get it used, and drop the availability levels). a custom cyberlimb with 6 customized agility, 1 agility enhancement, 3 armour, and a gyromount costs 51,500 nuyen (i won't have the last slot filled, but then again, the only reason to care at all is *if* i need more recoil compensation, and i've already got more than you). of course, i can't start with 3 armour unless i get it used, which i may as well do. i can get both my cyberlimb and my wired reflexes used, in fact, while you can only get either your wired reflexes or your muscle replacement used (getting both will kill you). so i could tack on even *more* stuff, if i wanted to. instead, i'll settle for have more spare money to spend on useful stuff.

thirdly, if your plan for melee is to just turtle, then i suppose you're fine. we're not talking about a pit fight of my character vs yours, though. we're talking about making viable characters. if someone melees my character, i can have 1 point less in my dicepool (unless i decide to spend one extra point in my melee skill over you), and several extra dice on offence. so sure, your character can sit there and wait and hope that someone rescues him from melee, if that's your exclusive focus. mine actually has a much better chance of winning combat, which is frankly at least as important.

i have better attack dicepools. i have better hacking dicepools (even if only in some areas). i match your soak. i match your physical condition monitor. i have more extra areas of skill. i have 4 extra points of edge. i don't need to be ten times better (though calculating just what 10 times better looks like would be difficult at best), i just need to be clearly better. and if i am clearly better, it raises the question of why i would ever build a troll, when i can have better base dicepools in core focus areas, better dicepools in secondary focus areas, and 4 extra points of edge for emergencies.

(and as has been said about cyberlimbs, custom cyberlimbs become unusable when they exceed your natural racial maximum, not when they exceed your natural attributes. it's quite clear when they become unusable, and it isn't based on your natural attributes).

[Cain]

Jaid, you're getting awfully heated, you might want to consider what you're trying to do.

i have better attack dicepools. i have better hacking dicepools (even if only in some areas). i match your soak. i match your physical condition monitor. i have more extra areas of skill. i have 4 extra points of edge. i don't need to be ten times better (though calculating just what 10 times better looks like would be difficult at best), i just need to be clearly better. and if i am clearly better, it raises the question of why i would ever build a troll, when i can have better base dicepools in core focus areas, better dicepools in secondary focus areas, and 4 extra points of edge for emergencies.

You don't have a better attack: you have +1 dice to roll, but -1 on recoil, which is actually a wash. Your primary hacking rolls are the same, and the secondary aren't that much better, (they could be, but you haven't actually statted his skills, so we can't compare. You *aren't* clearly better in anything except Edge; and even then, Edge is apparently not the answer if you're behind by seven dice on an attack.

All you've done so far is rant that cyberlimbs are better, but you haven't actually tried to compare it to an identical troll build. You're saying you can build a character better than I can-- which may be true, but that doesn't prove that *humans* are better, just that you're not willing to make one.

thirdly, if your plan for melee is to just turtle, then i suppose you're fine. we're not talking about a pit fight of my character vs yours, though. we're talking about making viable characters.

Melee happens so rarely in Shadowrun, it's not a major concern. Unless your character is melee-focused, it won't happen often. When it does happen, you do need to be prepared: since I'm not planning on hurting people, I can afford to focus on defense. That's actually a *more* viable character, since making a melee-focused build is generally less viable than a shooter.

So, despite your protests, your human isn't ahead on attack pools. He's behind on soak, and if he goes full-auto, he's behind there as well-- far enough behind that he'll need to spend edge to keep up. Your claim that humans are always superior is falling flat.

[Jaid]

the one-handed version has better dicepools. the two-handed version (which only even exists because you arbitrarily decided that you need two guns blazing full auto to be viable) has better dicepools except for the completely pointless and arbitrary restriction that you have to go in full-auto with two guns for no reason to be viable. if he just, you know, doesn't arbitrarily restrict himself to one specific combat action (using full bursts with two guns on everything), he does just fine too. of course, as i've already pointed out, i have no compelling reason to use two limbs in the first place, it's just to point out that if we absolutely must for no good reason use that one specific combat action you've focused on, i can make a build for that too.

the burden of proof that trolls work just fine is not on me. it's on you. you want to show that your troll has advantages worth the cost of being a troll, well then you show it. my position is that human is better. it's my job to show a human combat decker that is better at his job than your troll combat decker is at his job. all i need to do is put 1 point each into those secondary hacking skills, and i've done my job. except that in addition to my 8 floating skill points, i've got 5 group points to your 2, so i'll make it easy: those skills you have two points in? i have 5. and still have 8 points (beyond your 4) to spend on whatever else i want.

and while melee doesn't necessarily happen often, if you're going to be prepared, you need to be prepared to do more than just flail away ineffectively and hope you don't die. being able to defend is good. being able to defend and actually having a plan to remove your need to defend yourself is better. your troll can sit there and be hard to hit. i'm sure that's very helpful. but unless your plan is to drag the fight out for 10 minutes and wait for your opponent to get tired (and hope that he never gets a single lucky roll in that time), your plan doesn't have an end condition. you're not much of a combat decker if your plan for combat is to wait for someone else to rescue you.

so, do tell: while you're sitting there with your two-handed weapon fending off your opponent, thus preventing you from being able to use your dual-wielded ares alphas (the only weapon with which you have an offensive dice pool worth much of anything), what is your plan to get rid of the guy who's forced you into melee?

[Cain]

the burden of proof that trolls work just fine is not on me. it's on you. you want to show that your troll has advantages worth the cost of being a troll, well then you show it. my position is that human is better. it's my job to show a human combat decker that is better at his job than your troll combat decker is at his job. all i need to do is put 1 point each into those secondary hacking skills, and i've done my job. except that in addition to my 8 floating skill points, i've got 5 group points to your 2, so i'll make it easy: those skills you have two points in? i have 5. and still have 8 points (beyond your 4) to spend on whatever else i want.

Actually, I've put together more of a character. Sure, it's not the greatest, but most things are accounted for. Your constantly throwing "maybes" and "what ifs" into the mix, which shows you're not certain enough to commit to your build. And besides, I've already maxed the cors abilities. Your character might have more gravy during downtime, but in actual hacking, they're damn near equal. And in combat, the troll is better: better soak, equivalent attack, and better recoil compensation for when he needs to hit things.

so, do tell: while you're sitting there with your two-handed weapon fending off your opponent, thus preventing you from being able to use your dual-wielded ares alphas (the only weapon with which you have an offensive dice pool worth much of anything), what is your plan to get rid of the guy who's forced you into melee?

First of all, it's rare to be forced into melee; there's a reason why soldiers train mostly with guns and not so much in melee combat. If someone tries to close for melee, in Shadowrun the best response is to shoot him. Unless he's a very specialized adept, he'll probably die in the process.

Also, although I looked very closely, I can't see any rule that actually says you have to use a staff with two hands. And even if I missed it, there are rules that allow trolls to use such weapons one-handed. Troll size is an advantage here, I can use a two-handed weapon with one hand. The other, of course, has an assault rifle pointed at your gut. A full auto burst at point-blank range will mess up anyone's day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Melee happens so rarely in Shadowrun, it's not a major concern. Unless your character is melee-focused, it won't happen often. When it does happen, you do need to be prepared: since I'm not planning on hurting people, I can afford to focus on defense. That's actually a *more* viable character, since making a melee-focused build is generally less viable than a shooter.

This I disagree with... We see melee all the time. Yes, we have far more Ranged combat, but it NEVER stays there. Come around a corner, opponents are in close proximity, and there you have melee. It happens far more often than my Characters would like it to happen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Jaid]

i'm using the same baselines as you, except where otherwise mentioned. but hey, you want more specifics? sure. i'm not interested in your pointless use of dual weapons. i'm going to use one weapon, which is just as effective and also cheaper. so you've got 50,000 nuyen worth of muscle replacement? i've got 38,625 nuyen of used cyberarm with agility 7, a cyber gyro mount, and 3 points of armour, plus another 11,000 nuyen worth of whatever i feel like.

my dicepool for shooting is 2 better from agility than yours, and i have one more point of recoil compensation. that is not equivalent.

my hacker has more dice on things like disarming data bombs. given how potent data bombs are, that's pretty important. my hacker is better at eavesdropping on conversations. situationally, that could be the entire reason you're hacking someone in the first place, as well as other miscellaneous tasks (which i've listed before) since i've got my secondary skill group at 5 as compared to your 2. that is not equal, that is better.

my dicepool for soaking damage is the same as yours. i have 2 less body (lost 4 points from race, put 2 from priority back in), and don't get troll natural armour... but i do get 3 armour from my cyberarm. hey look, it's somewhere that you're actually equivalent.

my melee weapon has 2 fewer reach than yours, and you seem to be presuming you spent 2 skill points on your melee skill (one for skill, one for specialization). with my 8 spare points, i can allocate 2 to this, although you've already spent an awful lot of time denigrating how valuable it is. but sure, for the sake of argument, i'm now down to 6 skill points more than you. on a side note, i believe you intended to put one skill point into a social skill as well... was it etiquette, or con? or did you want to do both, and leave your perception at 2? whichever of those 3 you're not spending a point on, i'll spend a point on. i'm down to 5 extra now. i'll put one in sneak as well, which means i'm matching your dice pool in another fairly important skill. i still have 4 left, and for the sake of argument i'll throw those into specializations for con(fast talk), perception(visual), sneak(urban), and i can't remember... did you specialize automatics? if not, i'll throw my last skill point into that. if you did (and i've therefore already matched it, per my statement of matching your build except where otherwise specified), then i guess i'll put a point into throwing. grenade use seems like a pretty good choice for our theoretical combat decker. i'm better in secondary areas of focus than you are now. and possibly just gained another 2 dice with my automatics skill, making me +4 compared to you.

so, have i missed fleshing out anything that you've fleshed out?

and are you going to actually look at the changes i've made to the character to improve it before you declare that your dice pools are magically equal or superior?

[Cain]

Nice job, now that you've committed I can point out that you didn't actually buy up any of the secondary decking skills. Assuming you kept the group points where I did, that means you're still identical in Matrix abilities. In *every* Matrix ability, I might add; while you might try and backpedal some, as it stands you don't have a single dice advantage anywhere for your human.

Second, even though you keep harping on the cyberarm, you're bending or ignoring a lot of rules to get it. You can't start with Armor 3 on a cyberlimb, it's above the availability. So, you're *behind* again on soaking.

Third, even though you denigrate two-weapon fire, it's actually better because the RC of both weapons stack. So, if I dual-wield akimbo assault rifles, I have more accuracy than you using a double-long-burst from the same weapon. However, your build can't take proper advantage of that fact. Before we figure in that, you're already about even: you have *one* more dice than the troll, but you also have less recoil comp, possibly a lot less. That results in a wash. Luckily, the comparison was for automatics specialists, who use a lot of dakka: in that case, the troll wins hands-down.

Finally: You're the one who was arguing that humans are clearly superior at everything. However, your best build (when the rules are applied) isn't even significantly better at most things, not even the core things. Overall, they're possibly equal. I don't mind equal, but equal disproves your point. If your human combat decker and my troll combat decker are about the same, then humans aren't better at everything. Heck, they're not even better at off-type things for trolls!

All I need to do is show you that the troll is pretty equivalent. And so far, I have; everything you've done only adds a die here or there, and is still behind in some key spots. You are not proving that humans are an overwhelmingly superior choice, you're proving that if you use some tricks you come out about equal.

[RHat]

Also, if you want to take dual-fire out of the equation, the troll could just as easily use a Ballistic or Riot shield, and gain a nice chunk of extra armour.

And I assume you're keeping the "one attack action per pass" limitation in mind, Cain?

Also, he's bending no rules aside from perhaps the armour issue. Cyberlimbs do work that way, and it's been made abundantly clear they're intended to work that way.

[Jack VII]

Second, even though you keep harping on the cyberarm, you're bending or ignoring a lot of rules to get it. You can't start with Armor 3 on a cyberlimb, it's above the availability. So, you're *behind* again on soaking.

It's based on the reading that cyberlimb armor can be taken at Used Grade in a Used limb, thereby reducing the Availability to a point where you can get it at chargen. That reading depends on whether "enhancements" falls under the not very descriptive "Add-Ons" category, since it isn't an accessory.

[Cain]

Also, if you want to take dual-fire out of the equation, the troll could just as easily use a Ballistic or Riot shield, and gain a nice chunk of extra armour.

And I assume you're keeping the "one attack action per pass" limitation in mind, Cain?

The armor stacking rules confuse me, so I left that idea out. I'm sure it could work, but I'd need to get into it more.

And yes: multi-attacking splits the dice pool, after modifiers. However, each gun's recoil modifier stacks, so f you're firing two long bursts, two different guns with their own RC is the way to go. However, his build can't do that, since multiattacking with separate limbs uses the lower of the stats.

I didn't calculate the numbers for him using only one gun, though. Assuming in both cases, we're using guns with 7 points of recoil comp, the troll has an additional 2 from strength and the human has 1. Since the first bullet is free, the troll can fire 18 rounds without penalty, meaning he has only -2 before splitting. The human can fire 9 rounds without penalty; but since we're talking dual long bursts, he's at *-11*.

We've already postulated that the troll has 15 dice, and the human has 16, before modifiers. After the split, the troll has 6 and 7, the human 2 and 3! Granted, the human has more Edge, but in this case he's going to need it! And even then, that only takes him up to 5 and 5, so the troll still comes out ahead.

[Jack VII]

I'm still kind of trying to figure out why the shit a hacker/TM would even try to fire two weapons at once. Is there some reason for this? It's a terrible idea.

ETA: I mean, don't get me wrong, it kind of makes sense in light of the title of the thread, but then I'm not sure why you would include any aspects of being a TM/Hacker if the goal is a combat monster.

[Cain]

It's based on the reading that cyberlimb armor can be taken at Used Grade in a Used limb, thereby reducing the Availability to a point where you can get it at chargen. That reading depends on whether "enhancements" falls under the not very descriptive "Add-Ons" category, since it isn't an accessory.

Not to mention that I recall there is a controversy over rather or not you can even take used cyber at chargen. The rules seem to contradict themselves, and I don't see anything in the errata about it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nice job, now that you've committed I can point out that you didn't actually buy up any of the secondary decking skills. Assuming you kept the group points where I did, that means you're still identical in Matrix abilities. In *every* Matrix ability, I might add; while you might try and backpedal some, as it stands you don't have a single dice advantage anywhere for your human.

I guess you missed the point where his Electronics Group is a Rating 5 vs. your Rating 2, yes?
So, Hacking Skills at Max (as you indicated) and Electronics at 5 make the human a better hacker, with no contest. The Extra Edge just adds icing to the Cake.
The better Social is also a plus... and even IF the Human equals out in combat, the fact is that the Human is a Better character all around in comparison to the Troll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

I'm still kind of trying to figure out why the shit a hacker/TM would even try to fire two weapons at once. Is there some reason for this? It's a terrible idea.

ETA: I mean, don't get me wrong, it kind of makes sense in light of the title of the thread, but then I'm not sure why you would include any aspects of being a TM/Hacker if the goal is a combat monster.

It actually increases your chances of hitting. Long bursts reduce the defense pool by -9; but splitting the dice pool, the troll only loses 8 dice. He actually comes out ahead on the first burst, and even on the second, since there's a cumulative -1 for defending multiple times.

Single shots, multi-attacking doesn't work out, but spray-and-pray can get very dangerous with dual akimbo dikoted weapons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Cain]

I guess you missed the point where his Electronics Group is a Rating 5 vs. your Rating 2, yes?
So, Hacking Skills at Max (as you indicated) and Electronics at 5 make the human a better hacker, with no contest. The Extra Edge just adds icing to the Cake.
The better Social is also a plus... and even IF the Human equals out in combat, the fact is that the Human is a Better character all around in comparison to the Troll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except earlier, he talked about raising those skills individually. He just proved he doesn't actually have the points for that, he has to backpedal.

He's also no better socially: he still has a Charisma of 1, the only difference is his build now has two social skills. That's not much of a gain, especially for a non-face.

I might not have mastered the SR5 rules yet (I've been focusing on adepts) but so far, he hasn't shown he can build a superior human, just an equivalent one. There is no indication that humans are vastly superior, either; just that they have some advantages. Which is fine, trolls have advantages too, and sometimes those advantages can show up in off-type roles.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except earlier, he talked about raising those skills individually. He just proved he doesn't actually have the points for that, he has to backpedal.

He's also no better socially: he still has a Charisma of 1, the only difference is his build now has two social skills. That's not much of a gain, especially for a non-face.

I might not have mastered the SR5 rules yet (I've been focusing on adepts) but so far, he hasn't shown he can build a superior human, just an equivalent one. There is no indication that humans are vastly superior, either; just that they have some advantages. Which is fine, trolls have advantages too, and sometimes those advantages can show up in off-type roles.

Equivalent PLUS Superior Edge IS Superior. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Let me see if I can reconstruct him on paper to compare to your 4 skill wonder. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

EDITED:

[ Spoiler ]

Here is what I came up with in 15 Minutes...

Resources A (450,000), Skills B (36/5), Attributes C (16), Race D (Human +3 Edge), Special E (None)

Body 2 (4), Agility 1 (3), Reaction 4, Strength 1 (3), Charisma 2, Intuition 5, Logic 6, Willpower 3, Edge 5 (I hate Dumpstating to 1's, but that was the premise, so...)
*Reaction has an Issue and Initiative is only 9+1d6 - May have to use combat drugs. But they are pretty cheap, so no worries.

Skills:
Electronics Group 5 (11 DP)
Hacking (Hack on Fly) 6+2 (14 DP, +2 Hot)
Electronic Warfare (Hide) 6+2 (14 DP, +2 Hot)
Automatics (AR wasn't it?) 6+2 (15DP, 17 DP with Smartlink)
Etiquette 2 (4 DP)
Con (Fast Talk) 1+2 (5 DP)
Cybercombat (Specialty of Choice) 4+2 (12 DP, +2 Hot)
Sneaking (Urban) 2+2 (7 DP)
Perception (Details - Could go Visual too) 2+2 (9 DP)

Skill Choices are always personal.
I chose a Better Electronic Warfare than you did (you did not even have it at all) in place of Cybercombat, and then added Cybercombat at a lower skill level, but have all 3 skills.
RC: 1+(Strength/3)+3 = RC 5 + Weapon Recoil Compensation.

Gear - Total Cost: 440,125 Nuyen, 4.75 Essence)
Sony Cyberdeck (345,000 Nuyen)
Used Cyberarm (Str 3, Agi 7, Armor 3, Gyromount - 1.25 Essence, 38,625 Nuyen - Also adds one additional Health Box, so equal to your troll)
Used Muscle Replacement 2 (+2 Strength and Agility - 2.5 Essence, 37,500 Nuyen)
Aluminum Bone Lacing (+2 Body, (Strength +2)p Damage - 1 Essence, 18,000 Nuyen)

Armor Jacket (12 Armor, +3 Additional for Cyberarm)
Spend additional Nuyen for Programs, etc.

Not sure if I missed anything...
Workable Character - Now I have to compare with your alluded Build to see where he is better or worse.

Looks like Human Soaks 1 DP Better than the Troll... Human: Body 4+Armor+Cyberarmor 3 (Armor +7) vs. Troll: Body 5+Armor+Dermal Armor 1 (Armor+6).
Attack DP's look the same - 17 DP with Smartlink - Dual Wielding may give Troll Advantage, maybe not. I personally dislike Dual Wielding Myself. The Human has RC 5, while the Troll has an RC 3 prior to Weapon. It would appear Human has advantage, but the Troll might be able to effectively Dual Wield. Leave that as a Wash, since I think that the penalties would add up REAL fast for the Troll Dual wielding.

I think the Hacking abilities for the Human are significantly better overall, personally. Two skills are a wash, but the clear superiority of the additional Hacking skills goes to the Human.

Also, the additional other skills are equal to or better than the Trolls, and there is a slight edge in the number of those skills too (5 Skill vs. 4, which includes the Humans additional Hacking Skill).

I have to conclude the Human will be a better character overall with all that going for him as well as the superiopr Edge Attribute. Note, this also does not go into the purely personal choices that Qualities and Karma Expenditures create (which I have not utilized at all). I believe that your build actually used the Karma at final Creation (I seem to remember that at least).

[Jaid]

actually, i've said at least twice now that i spend my 3 extra group points on the same group. you not reading it doesn't make it not happen.

secondly, missions FAQ (which is the only errata that's come out in english that's worth a damned thing) allows used cyberware at chargen. i've mentioned used cyberware like 3-4 times now. if it bothers you, why is this the first time it's come up? are you even reading what i've been saying?

thirdly, there is no advantage for using two weapons to burst fire. i don't need to burst twice per round. and unless you're using both guns, you're not getting the recoil compensation from both guns. further, if we're both using the same gun, then i also have a cyberarm gyromount that is mounted on my arm, not the gun, and which holds the arm steady. 3 extra points of recoil comp there, which you aren't getting. which is beside the point; the vast vast vast majority of the time, you're going to be better off using a single 6 round burst every round, because you can do that in a simple action, use the remaining action to take aim (oh hello there higher limit and bonus die), and your recoil does not accumulate that way. anything beyond that, you're probably better off using suppressive fire which hits multiple targets, removes dice from your opponents (with no opposed roll to reduce the penalty), and doesn't suffer from recoil at all. you're still fixating on your crazy dual-wielding full-auto burst strategy, which i've specifically disavowed because it doesn't gain you anything except higher costs. i'm not making a dual long burst. i have one gun, which i make a single burst with, because dual full burst is a terrible idea, both in real life and in shadowrun. oh, and also, i have two more agility than you. not one. you have 5, i have 7.

plus of course there's the fact that your troll is apparently walking around everywhere with a pair of ares alphas that have tripods, which might just be slightly challenging to conceal. also, you need ambidexterity, which costs extra karma (albeit not a lot). i guess i can use that to buy etiquette and use the freed-up skill point for something else. maybe i'll specialize that throwing skill into grenades (assuming you specialized your automatics skill when i matched it - based on the fact that you seem to think we're within 1 die of each other, i'm presuming you did. either that or once again you just didn't bother reading what i'm doing with my character and are going to announce that i've somehow not stated that previously when i have).

[RHat]

I'm curious as to where the comparative Reaction and Intuition for these characters sits...

[Jaid]

I'm curious as to where the comparative Reaction and Intuition for these characters sits...

same. both of them have 3 in each as i recall. well, 3(5) for reaction, courtesy of wired 2. he hasn't mentioned reaction enhancers, and frankly i don't think either of us has the cash for them without downgrading our deck more than we want to.