Hidden mode and firearms, What's the disadvantage Options

[Chimera]

I had a question regarding hidden mode and firearms, specifically those you might have smart-linked. As has been discussed through other threads, any device can go into hidden mode, the penalty being a -2 to matrix actions. The advantage is that a hacker must make a perception test to detect the hidden node. The 5E book gives an example (p.228) of a situation involving a smartgun and a decker; with the decker noticing the gun, tossing a Data Spike, and bricking the weapon.

My question is..what is the disadvantage in running hidden for smartguns? One of the staples for this new edition (if not one of the taglines) is that "Everything has a price". What disadvantage is there in using a smartgun thats in hidden mode? Do you lose its +2 bonus (I don't see anything referencing anything like that). Or is there no real disadvantage and the Ork in the example given was a hilariously ill-prepared noob for not having his gun in hidden mode. I suppose this question could be expanded to other devices as well.

[Jack VII]

There isn't a mechanical penalty since a smartgun doesn't make matrix actions. With that said, if you get stopped and searched by the cops and you have weapons operating in hidden mode without a license (I guess concealed carry would cover wireless mode as well), there could be problems. It's more of an RP than mechanical penalty.

[Jaid]

hidden mode is only hard to detect at all if it is slaved to something with a stealth rating.

even if it is attached to something with a stealth rating, they can still detect that *something* is there... they just can't point to you specifically or tell that it's a gun. depending on where you are, that can be a rather significant disadvantage. on a crowded city street with 200 people and maybe a handful of them are running stuff hidden (for the sake of argument, a teenager with a second commlink that runs silent and stores their pron stash or something like that), then local law enforcement is unlikely to even check for or care about hidden icons in general. in a high security corporate facility, the odds of checking for wireless devices and responding to the presence of hidden icons with a more in-depth check is considerably greater, and if you've been detected, then running hidden doesn't prevent anything, it just slows them down a little.

[Chimera]

I would agree with these observations. I could also see that having a weapon in hidden mode could raise uncomfortable questions from inquiring law-enforcement in a traffic stop, though I think the very fact that I have a gun in the glove box would raise eyebrows first.

Refining my question a bit more, why would you ever NOT have your weapons in hidden mode? Because at this point I don't see any disadvantage from an active combat perspective. Would others agree with this observation?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would agree with these observations. I could also see that having a weapon in hidden mode could raise uncomfortable questions from inquiring law-enforcement in a traffic stop, though I think the very fact that I have a gun in the glove box would raise eyebrows first.

Refining my question a bit more, why would you ever NOT have your weapons in hidden mode? Because at this point I don't see any disadvantage from an active combat perspective. Would others agree with this observation?

Why would you run with it ACTIVE at all? Hidden or not.

[hermit]

Because without wireless, a smartlink is only worth having if you have a very high firearms pool. So the question is more 'why would you want to have a smartlink at all?'

[Lobo0705]

deleted

[hermit]

Classy, Lobo.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because without wireless, a smartlink is only worth having if you have a very high firearms pool. So the question is more 'why would you want to have a smartlink at all?'

See, I wouldn't... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
One more security hole that you have to plug or protect. I seek to Minimize my security holes, not provide something for the opposition to locate me by. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And if it is not implanted, it is no better than a Laser Sight anyways. Me, I prefer Red-Dot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Classy, Lobo.

Damn, Missed it... How classy was it?

[BlackJaw]

I would agree with these observations. I could also see that having a weapon in hidden mode could raise uncomfortable questions from inquiring law-enforcement in a traffic stop, though I think the very fact that I have a gun in the glove box would raise eyebrows first.

Refining my question a bit more, why would you ever NOT have your weapons in hidden mode? Because at this point I don't see any disadvantage from an active combat perspective. Would others agree with this observation?

Because it's a very easy unopposed matrix perception test to detect the presence of hidden icons within 100m, although that just gives you the number within 100m, not where or what they are. As pointed out, on the street, there is no way for the cops to know you have hidden icon is unless they can make a second matrix perception roll to find the icon, which is resisted with logic + sleaze (if you have any.) These doesn't mean they won't use it as a reason to stop and accost you if you look out of place. In a higher security setting, like a corp facility past closing, if the Spider notices there are hidden icons, he'll have an easier time locating the icon, and hidden icons at all are a security concern.

The ease of detecting the presence of hidden icons is a major concern with the 5th edition wireless rules, and a contributing reason to why many people think it's foolish to have any wireless devices active on a corp facility (or similar) run.

[hermit]

Damn, Missed it... How classy was it?

I'll give it a 6/10.

[Chimera]

These arguments I understand and agree with. If you are going into a high matrix security zone, you have that Risk-Reward concept. "Do I risk being having an icon detected for the benefit of a +2 bonus." Most would say no, and I would say in most situations I would concur. I'll take the two less dice to avoid having Red Samurai all up in my mix like friggin' Betty Crocker.

However, lets assume that the device, in this case a smartgun IS active because...reasons. If I'm running against a megacorp, and I have my active gun NOT hidden, its immediately visible to the security spider. If I'm running against a megacorp, and I have my active gun in Hidden Mode, then the GM has to make an additional roll against me to detect if there are hidden devices (easy) and what they are (a little less easy but probably simple unless its a glitch). Given that situation, why would a person ever has his gun be in NOT hidden mode? Is having an active, NON-hidden firearm all risk and no reward?

[Lobo0705]

These arguments I understand and agree with. If you are going into a high matrix security zone, you have that Risk-Reward concept. "Do I risk being having an icon detected for the benefit of a +2 bonus." Most would say no, and I would say in most situations I would concur. I'll take the two less dice to avoid having Red Samurai all up in my mix like friggin' Betty Crocker.

However, lets assume that the device, in this case a smartgun IS active because...reasons. If I'm running against a megacorp, and I have my active gun NOT hidden, its immediately visible to the security spider. If I'm running against a megacorp, and I have my active gun in Hidden Mode, then the GM has to make an additional roll against me to detect if there are hidden devices (easy) and what they are (a little less easy but probably simple unless its a glitch). Given that situation, why would a person ever has his gun be in NOT hidden mode? Is having an active, NON-hidden firearm all risk and no reward?

As far as the rules are written, if the item in question does not allow you to perform a "Matrix Action" - as defined on pages 237-243 - then it running silent has no detriment mechanically - so if you are sneaking in somewhere, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to NOT have it running silently.

[Jaid]

hmmm... just to make sure, i'm going to restate the question as i think you're asking it, and answer that question, and you can let me know if i got it right.

do you perhaps mean "if you have already decided that you are going to have wireless enabled on your gun, is there any reason to not set it to hidden mode?"

in that case, it basically all comes down to whether you're trying to hide your gun by hiding it physically, or by having clearly visible licenses that say you're allowed to have the gun and give a good reason why. if the former, no there is no drawback. if the latter, well, displaying the gun physically should be accompanied with displaying the gun in the matrix, otherwise your matrix appearance is going to blow your cover.

apart from that, i can't think of any reason not to go wireless, *if* that's what you've decided to do.

[Curator]

there's always throwback items.

[FuelDrop]

If you could get something similar to an RCC and use that to give all your devices Wrapper programs that'd help a fair bit.

[BlackJaw]

If you could get something similar to an RCC and use that to give all your devices Wrapper programs that'd help a fair bit.

A $1000 bug drone does the job. It has 2 cyberprogram/autosoft slots.

[Umidori]

there's always throwback items.

Well, in 4E anyway. Gonna be awhile until 5E gets on board with all the goodies currently lacking.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, in 4E anyway. Gonna be awhile until 5E gets on board with all the goodies currently lacking.

~Umi

Throwback Items are a thing in SR5 already. They are merely items that do not have wireless capabilities.
Even has its own Entry in the Book.
Page 421, SR5, Throwbacks.

[Umidori]

Well I'll be!

Ah! I know what I was confusing it with. "Vintage" items.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well I'll be!

Ah! I know what I was confusing it with. "Vintage" items.

~Umi

I like me some Vintage Items. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Really? I never understood the appeal beyond character style and usage as "burner" weapons.

"Oh, I have a gun that's too old to use with modern electronics, does less damage, holds less ammo, and is in every way inferior to normal firearm options. At least it was super cheap?"

~Umi

[X-Kalibur]

Really? I never understood the appeal beyond character style and usage as "burner" weapons.

"Oh, I have a gun that's too old to use with modern electronics, does less damage, holds less ammo, and is in every way inferior to normal firearm options. At least it was super cheap?"

~Umi

Wasn't necessarily super cheap, either. But for someone with the right set-up, you could easily crank out some disposable firearms that would have very little to trace. Or you could just have a style fetish.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Really? I never understood the appeal beyond character style and usage as "burner" weapons.

"Oh, I have a gun that's too old to use with modern electronics, does less damage, holds less ammo, and is in every way inferior to normal firearm options. At least it was super cheap?"

~Umi

Yep, Really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Modern Electronics suck and are prone to breakage. Damage is about the same, it may or may not hold less ammo, and is really not all that inferior, all things compared. Of course, if you think that the neat, new gee-whiz gizmo guns are the best thing to ever come around, well, you will likely disagree with me. But I prefer a solid weapon, with little to nothing that can go wrong with it. And the Vintage ones cannot be bricked, so there is another plus, in my book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And sometimes, the old stuff is the best stuff.