I had a question regarding hidden mode and firearms, specifically those you might have smart-linked. As has been discussed through other threads, any device can go into hidden mode, the penalty being a -2 to matrix actions. The advantage is that a hacker must make a perception test to detect the hidden node. The 5E book gives an example (p.228) of a situation involving a smartgun and a decker; with the decker noticing the gun, tossing a Data Spike, and bricking the weapon.

My question is..what is the disadvantage in running hidden for smartguns? One of the staples for this new edition (if not one of the taglines) is that "Everything has a price". What disadvantage is there in using a smartgun thats in hidden mode? Do you lose its +2 bonus (I don't see anything referencing anything like that). Or is there no real disadvantage and the Ork in the example given was a hilariously ill-prepared noob for not having his gun in hidden mode. I suppose this question could be expanded to other devices as well.

There isn't a mechanical penalty since a smartgun doesn't make matrix actions. With that said, if you get stopped and searched by the cops and you have weapons operating in hidden mode without a license (I guess concealed carry would cover wireless mode as well), there could be problems. It's more of an RP than mechanical penalty.

hidden mode is only hard to detect at all if it is slaved to something with a stealth rating.

even if it is attached to something with a stealth rating, they can still detect that *something* is there... they just can't point to you specifically or tell that it's a gun. depending on where you are, that can be a rather significant disadvantage. on a crowded city street with 200 people and maybe a handful of them are running stuff hidden (for the sake of argument, a teenager with a second commlink that runs silent and stores their pron stash or something like that), then local law enforcement is unlikely to even check for or care about hidden icons in general. in a high security corporate facility, the odds of checking for wireless devices and responding to the presence of hidden icons with a more in-depth check is considerably greater, and if you've been detected, then running hidden doesn't prevent anything, it just slows them down a little.

I would agree with these observations. I could also see that having a weapon in hidden mode could raise uncomfortable questions from inquiring law-enforcement in a traffic stop, though I think the very fact that I have a gun in the glove box would raise eyebrows first.

Refining my question a bit more, why would you ever NOT have your weapons in hidden mode? Because at this point I don't see any disadvantage from an active combat perspective. Would others agree with this observation?

Why would you run with it ACTIVE at all? Hidden or not.

Because without wireless, a smartlink is only worth having if you have a very high firearms pool. So the question is more 'why would you want to have a smartlink at all?'

deleted

Classy, Lobo.

See, I wouldn't...
One more security hole that you have to plug or protect. I seek to Minimize my security holes, not provide something for the opposition to locate me by. *shrug*

And if it is not implanted, it is no better than a Laser Sight anyways. Me, I prefer Red-Dot.

Damn, Missed it... How classy was it?

Because it's a very easy unopposed matrix perception test to detect the presence of hidden icons within 100m, although that just gives you the number within 100m, not where or what they are. As pointed out, on the street, there is no way for the cops to know you have hidden icon is unless they can make a second matrix perception roll to find the icon, which is resisted with logic + sleaze (if you have any.) These doesn't mean they won't use it as a reason to stop and accost you if you look out of place. In a higher security setting, like a corp facility past closing, if the Spider notices there are hidden icons, he'll have an easier time locating the icon, and hidden icons at all are a security concern.

The ease of detecting the presence of hidden icons is a major concern with the 5th edition wireless rules, and a contributing reason to why many people think it's foolish to have any wireless devices active on a corp facility (or similar) run.

I'll give it a 6/10.

These arguments I understand and agree with. If you are going into a high matrix security zone, you have that Risk-Reward concept. "Do I risk being having an icon detected for the benefit of a +2 bonus." Most would say no, and I would say in most situations I would concur. I'll take the two less dice to avoid having Red Samurai all up in my mix like friggin' Betty Crocker.

However, lets assume that the device, in this case a smartgun IS active because...reasons. If I'm running against a megacorp, and I have my active gun NOT hidden, its immediately visible to the security spider. If I'm running against a megacorp, and I have my active gun in Hidden Mode, then the GM has to make an additional roll against me to detect if there are hidden devices (easy) and what they are (a little less easy but probably simple unless its a glitch). Given that situation, why would a person ever has his gun be in NOT hidden mode? Is having an active, NON-hidden firearm all risk and no reward?

As far as the rules are written, if the item in question does not allow you to perform a "Matrix Action" - as defined on pages 237-243 - then it running silent has no detriment mechanically - so if you are sneaking in somewhere, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to NOT have it running silently.

hmmm... just to make sure, i'm going to restate the question as i think you're asking it, and answer that question, and you can let me know if i got it right.

do you perhaps mean "if you have already decided that you are going to have wireless enabled on your gun, is there any reason to not set it to hidden mode?"

in that case, it basically all comes down to whether you're trying to hide your gun by hiding it physically, or by having clearly visible licenses that say you're allowed to have the gun and give a good reason why. if the former, no there is no drawback. if the latter, well, displaying the gun physically should be accompanied with displaying the gun in the matrix, otherwise your matrix appearance is going to blow your cover.

apart from that, i can't think of any reason not to go wireless, *if* that's what you've decided to do.

there's always throwback items.

If you could get something similar to an RCC and use that to give all your devices Wrapper programs that'd help a fair bit.

A $1000 bug drone does the job. It has 2 cyberprogram/autosoft slots.

Well, in 4E anyway. Gonna be awhile until 5E gets on board with all the goodies currently lacking.

~Umi

Throwback Items are a thing in SR5 already. They are merely items that do not have wireless capabilities.
Even has its own Entry in the Book.
Page 421, SR5, Throwbacks.

Well I'll be!

Ah! I know what I was confusing it with. "Vintage" items.

~Umi

I like me some Vintage Items.

Really? I never understood the appeal beyond character style and usage as "burner" weapons.

"Oh, I have a gun that's too old to use with modern electronics, does less damage, holds less ammo, and is in every way inferior to normal firearm options. At least it was super cheap?"

~Umi

Wasn't necessarily super cheap, either. But for someone with the right set-up, you could easily crank out some disposable firearms that would have very little to trace. Or you could just have a style fetish.

Yep, Really.
Modern Electronics suck and are prone to breakage. Damage is about the same, it may or may not hold less ammo, and is really not all that inferior, all things compared. Of course, if you think that the neat, new gee-whiz gizmo guns are the best thing to ever come around, well, you will likely disagree with me. But I prefer a solid weapon, with little to nothing that can go wrong with it. And the Vintage ones cannot be bricked, so there is another plus, in my book.

And sometimes, the old stuff is the best stuff.

And sometimes old stuff stands out.

Using an old M1911 should probably count as a Distinctive Style if the weapon gets noticed in any way. When asked if they remember anything unusual about your character, NPCs who actually saw your weapon (and lived to talk about it, of course) would likely comment on the fact that you use an antique for some reason.

Like I said, I could see using them as burners - but if you use one as your weapon of choice, that's a purely style-based decision, and having a unique style can sometimes be problematic.

That said, I'm the guy who toys around with building freaks like a T'skrang changeling who wields a pair of stylized swords - but at the same time, I realize he pretty much has to be a real lurker, never being seen, living in the relative obscurity of places like the Ork Underground and other areas that are somewhat "safe" for freaks that stand out.

~Umi

Yeah, I mourn for Freaks. My Spider Changeling apparently inspires people to kill him whenever he is seen in public. It is quite sad.

Hmmm...
You want a good vintage weapon? The M2 Browning Machine Gun was introduced in the 1930's and is still in service today. I'm willing to bet that it holds up damn well against anything Ares puts out. So yeah, Vintage isn't the same as crap.

Except that stat-wise, it'd probably have lower damage, AP, and definitely lower RC than an Ingram White Knight (based purely on how they've statted out Vintage weapons in the past), and if we're talking 5E then it's got a substantial penalty to Accuracy as well, compounded by the inability to compensate for that via a smartgun system.

And on top of all that, people will look at it funny. (Although it is a machine gun - if people see it, they typically don't live very long. But if they do? Yeah, you're not just some random 'Runner who hit the company R&D department, you're specifically a 'Runner who uses antique weaponry - and that's easier to find.)

~Umi

Hate to tell you this, but the Browning would have a higher damage code than the White Knight (and higher than the MMG). It is a HEAVY Machine Gun, akin to the Stoner or RPK. The White Knight is a LIGHT machine gun, while the Browning is not. Next you are going to tell me that the M82 Barrett is not equal to the Barrett M121 (Separated by 80+ Years of Service). Sheer Lunacy.

I also have found that the average civilian would not know the difference between various versions of Weapons, antique or not. To the vast majority of them they are just "Guns" of one type or another. Hell, most cannot even describe it beyond the generic "Gun" descriptor. I have a Hunting rifle that is over 100 Years old, and it really does not look much different than the one I have from the 40's and the one I have from the 60's.

Likely it is a style thing to cater to the buyers' preconcieved notions on how a hunting rifle looks like. But really the more important thing is do they all have the same performance?

Yeah, pretty Much the same performance. I can hit out to 500+ Meters with any of them (only one of which actually has a Scope), with accuracy enough to kill what I am aiming at. They all have a slightly different loading system, but overall, they are all sturdy and accurate. And most people would not likely know what makes them different (other than the types of wood, maybe) if I took the scope off of the one that has one. They may not look like clones, but I can guarantee that most would not be able to tell you the Caliber or manufacturer from catching a glimpse of them when in use. Especially since one of them had the stock rebuilt due to damage over the years.

Yeah, same here. Once you have a weapon zeroed, it really don't matter until you are shooting over 500yds. Then it helps to have an accurized weapon with handloads, or if you are competing and shooting for the tightest group possible. Up to 500yds or so and I will hit what I am aiming at, with roughly a 6" group with ironsights (at the 500 mark much tighter as the range drops). Stretch that out a good distance with a good scope, hell with a scope the Barrett is very comfortable at the 1000yd range. It is why the Accuracy stat on a weapon is in my mind a complete game construct with no believable explanation. It is almost always the dummy behind the weapon screwing things up not the weapon itself.

Fine. Compare to the STONER then. Sorry I'm not familiar enough with every machine gun to instantly know how heavy of a round it fires and I didn't bother to look it up. /snark

My actual point about how the books have historically chosen to stat out Vintage weapons still stands. Glancing through Gun Heaven, it looks like I was slightly incorrect, most of them do have the same damage code and AP, but they tend to have slightly less RC, much less ammo, few to no standard modifications, and of course can't mount electronics like Smartguns.

Can you make do with a Colt M1911 rather than a Colt Government 2066? Sure, if you don't mind having half the ammo, missing out on the 1 RC and -1 anti-perception bonus of Electronic Firing, and losing dice from not having a smartgun. Can you use an M-16 almost as well as an Ares Alpha? Absolutely, if you're cool with losing the innate 2 RC, and dropping from 42 rounds per clip to a mere 30, and again missing out on the smartgun bonus.

They're still both serviceable weapons - but compared to their modern competitors, they're measurably inferior, both mechanically and "socially" with how NPCs will respond to your using an antique.

So like I've said twice now - you either use them as disposable "burner" weapons, or you use them purely for style and don't give a damn about their drawbacks so long as you look good.

~Umi

...if you're shooting at static targets...

Trained military marksmen have something like 99% accuracy against non-moving targets. Actual combat accuracy isn't half that.

~Umi

Out of 60 shots on a target range with moving pop up targets at ranges from 100yds-500yds, my average was 2 dropped shots, while my best was 1 dropped shot. Admittedly I was a competitive shooter, but even the toilet bowl shooters in my unit would get at least 40 on moving targets. Trying to suggest that the weapon is somehow responsible for accurate fire is really silly, it is always the shooter, the weapon is one factor that is not really a variable, and in no way limits the success or failure of a shot unless it is quite literally broken in some fashion. Lastly hitting moving targets is really not that big of a deal, it is a lot easier than you might think.

Weapons are responsible for accurate fire, at least in part. Precision rifles wouldn't be a thing if any longarm of a certain barrel length was equally accurate. It's even more noticeable with smaller firearms - a cheaply made knockoff pistol from China doesn't have the same precision as a SIG Sauer at anything past point blank range, for example. Then there are things like recoil - a heavier weapon doesn't move off target as badly and requires less adjustment for burst or sustained fire. Then there are things like variances in ammunition quality, rifling twist rate, the effects of heat, cleanliness of the weapon, all sorts of things.

Does skill make up a larger proportion of your ability to hit something than your weapon's inherent precision does? Absolutely. But the weapon is still a factor - quite obviously so.

SR tries to model inherent weapon accuracy through abstraction. It doesn't make accuracy the end-all and be-all of a weapon, but it does make a difference. Is it a perfect representation? No, definitely not. Does it work well enough and add meaningful factors to your choice of weapon selection? It does indeed.

Are "Vintage" weapons in SR5 likely to be statistically slightly less good than their more expensive modern counterparts? Of course, for obvious reasons of game balance and world atmosphere: it's the future, after all - the hot new Predator V is supposed to be better an old M1911 you dug out of a WWII surplus crate. Can you still kill drekheads dead with the antique? Yeah, just slightly less well than the new hotness - you get what you pay for, after all.

~Umi

i doubt people would look at you *that* weirdly for owning a 1911...

i would be surprised if in the 2070s it wasn't still a popular gun to own for people who like guns (which has a significant overlap with people who are capable of keeping themselves alive in many parts of the 6th world).

i mean, security corporations won't issue it to their employees or anything, but for people who buy their own, i wouldn't be surprised if it's a popular one to own and use when at firing ranges and such. it's been in use for over 100 years now, after all... and the average person won't own a smartgun (or at least, not the full system) anyways.

Owning a 1911 in 2011? Not that weird.

Owning a 1911 in 2075? That's like using a Colt Walker Model 1847 in 2011.

~Umi

Half the Ammo? Hell, I use a Hammerli 620s for the majority of my characters. Never really needed more than 6 shots with a Pistol. *shrug*
Anyone needing 12, 15, 19 or 30 shots in the grip must not be all that professional, in my opinion. *shrug*

Hell, IRL I hunt with a Ruger Single-Action .45 Long Colt on occasion.

Owning a Baretta 92 (or any number of other guns at 100+ years of their production) in 2091? That should not weird at all by your argument a post above. And yet you are complaining about guns that have only had a life cycle of 10-15 years in Shadowrun. 100 years of reliability just means that they have worked all the bugs out of the design.

It's easy enough to see why it shouldn't be an issue. I just can't believe that people think that spiders don't have better things to do all day than to walk perimeters doing constant matrix perception. Why bother, you have security guards walking around using their eyeballs to see if people are somewhere they shouldn't be. Not only that but their is probably rarely going to be a time when such a matrix action isn't going to come back positive anyway. Staff all have lives and no doubt some of them my just have their comlinks on silent to avoid advertising traffic, etc.

The only time that these types of matrix actions should occur is when the team has been spotted and someone (who should be a rarity anyway) wants to detect and start messing with their stuff.

So in your book Burst Fire or Full Auto fire is "Unprofessional", huh? Talk about your snobbish elitism. Do you just automatically double tap teammates who show up to a run with shotguns, out of pity?

As for hunting, you aren't exactly trusting your life to that old clunker, now are ya? Not a lotta deer running around in squads decked out in full body armor and sporting SMGs, neh?

Anyway, you wanna play Revolver Ocelot on a run, that's your call. Doesn't mean that's the only way to run things, nor that there's no value in having a bigger clip. Vintage guns are an option - not the option.

~Umi

I would like to add that the actual sidearm listed in Gun Heaven is the Colt M1991, not 1911.

Fair point. I forgot that it was actually that they introduced an "updated" version.

~Umi

Look, it is pretty clear you don't get what I am saying or I am not explaining it well enough. An average production model firearm will provide a consistent base from which any skilled shooter will be able to hit ANYTHING they want to with great precision for the ranges that firearm will normally be utilized at. Accurizing a weapon or adding improved sighting instruments, comfy grips, etc. only provide a benefit when we are literally talking about the difference of hitting someone in the grape or picking out the specific tooth, or eye we want to hit.

Cheaply made knock off firearms will usually fail you in the reliability department before they make you miss, which is why one should always familiarize with a weapon. I might shit on the long range accuracy of an AK-47, but that is more a function of me using it to do something it really was not meant to do, than the machining or stamping in this case, of the weapon system. I perfectly understand what the Acc stat does, and hey it does increase the selection process, it makes different weapons meaningful choices, but it is a complete fabrication for the game with really no basis in reality or at best a very tenuous one.

The vintage weapons should be a second choice for most as you said, but the actual damage and armor penetration is not where they should be creating the difference, if they ever want the people who actually use firearms in real life to quit bitchin'

In my book it is a waste of ammo. One shot, one kill.

... which would leave not only your smartlink but the entire weapon up to being bricked, since your smattlink's extra dice depend on wireless activity, and act as a gateway to your electronic firing.


I really, really, really do not understand how any even semi-professional shadow operative will want to keep their wireless on. To me, wireless boni are for corpsec who implicitly trust their squad decker to watch their backs, not runners who are tossed together by shady employers to do dirty deeds that are highly illegal and who are sketchy characters and likely targets for law enforcement.


Like? hanging around in their host, scanning the system like all the ICs are already doing? The spider can make much more of a difference in the gird, keeping an eye on things there, than in the host, which can pretty well defend itself.


This can easily be reined in with restrictive and invasive workplace regulations the company issues. You know, like the mandatory drug tests some companies do, or how some companies demand staff pray at breaks whether they are into that or not. Not keeping your commlink on open is a violation and will get your hoop punished. It's been like that since SR4, anyway.

Wow... You comment on things that you admittedly have minimal experience with, and then call me elitist for saying something that goes counter to the Run and Kill methods of most. Interesting. No, My point was that arguments about Ammo count making a gun inferior to another gun are poorly thought out and have no real basis. In the Corps. I used both the Colt .45 M1911 and the Beretta 92. Hated the 92 (even though it had More ammo, was brand new, had gadgets, etc), because it was a POS. Brand new and a POS at that. Now, the .45 I used was manufactured in the early 40's and was rock solid, dead on accurate (even though you cannot adjust the sights, you can adjust your shooting to achieve some great groupings) and I had little worry about the round not just shooting through and through without leaving a trail of destruction behind. PISTOLS are not intended to be the go-to weapon for Burst and Automatic weapon fire. That should be obvious from their construction. You want something like that, you take an SMG, AR or BR. Hell, you should even leave the Machine Pistols at home because they are nothing more than a Hollywood Directors wet dream of how guns should work and be used in a tactical situation. AS for Shotguns... Love them... Best Home defense weapon ever. But I would not use one for Precision shooting at 500 meters either. The right tool for the right occasion. Pistols are for personal protection, not for spraying and praying willy-nilly. The latter is a sure sign of a lack of skill and professionalism.

It just amazes me the conceit of people when it comes to their weapons and the game. Especially when a good number of them have no earthly idea exactly what they are talking about. Hollywood gets it wrong 99% of the time, and the explosions are just too big.

As for Double-Tapping teammates... naah, I let their unprofessionalism put them into the hot water all on their own. I just make sure I am no where around when it happens.

Though I would use an original just the same. They are reliable and sturdy, with minimal ways to go wrong.