Hidden mode and firearms, What's the disadvantage Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In my book it is a waste of ammo. One shot, one kill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, Mine too. *shrug*

[Faelan]

Though I would use an original just the same. They are reliable and sturdy, with minimal ways to go wrong.

Exactly, unfortunately old faithful is hard to model in a game. I would carry one simply because the M1911 frame is the most comfortable pistol I have ever had the pleasure to hold or fire. If you need more punch get a .460 conversion kit and say hello to serious destruction.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Exactly, unfortunately old faithful is hard to model in a game. I would carry one simply because the M1911 frame is the most comfortable pistol I have ever had the pleasure to hold or fire. If you need more punch get a .460 conversion kit and say hello to serious destruction.

I agree... The only pistol more comfortable to me is my Ruger 22/45 Target Pistol. I love it.

[X-Kalibur]

While I love my 1911A1, I feel my USP .45 is much more comfortable and I have far better groupings with it. I've never had any failures with either in a couple hundred rounds but they've been in clean conditions with only maybe some minor dirt if I went to the desert.

[Faelan]

While I love my 1911A1, I feel my USP .45 is much more comfortable and I have far better groupings with it. I've never had any failures with either in a couple hundred rounds but they've been in clean conditions with only maybe some minor dirt if I went to the desert.

Yeah HK USP fires nice, but for me I had a problem getting my thumb to depress the magazine release without cocking the gun to the side and then having to realign everything. It is why I avoid most double stacks.

[Smash]

This hidden mode has got me thinking a little bit.

Maybe the solution (if your problem is that every 3rd security guard is actually a spider /sigh) is that decks should an upgrade path for Samurai? The worst deck is 49K, set the 4 stat to sleaze, up it to 5 with software, don't necessarily treat logic as a dump stat and hey presto you're now rolling 8-9 die on opposed rolls to avoid detection.

The deck can even be cyberware so you don't have to cart it around.

[Jaid]

9 dice isn't exactly what i would call impressive. i could see that being somewhat worthwhile if you manage to loot a crappy cyberdeck, since a 49k cyberdeck certainly isn't going to be sold for nearly that much unless you have a *very* impressive face in the group. (that said, i wouldn't say no to even a 15k windfall either).

but there's no way i'd blow 49k on a reduced chance of getting detected just so that i can get +2 dice on a firearms test.

[Slide_Eurhetemec]

9 dice isn't exactly what i would call impressive. i could see that being somewhat worthwhile if you manage to loot a crappy cyberdeck, since a 49k cyberdeck certainly isn't going to be sold for nearly that much unless you have a *very* impressive face in the group. (that said, i wouldn't say no to even a 15k windfall either).

but there's no way i'd blow 49k on a reduced chance of getting detected just so that i can get +2 dice on a firearms test.

Could you not slave other devices to it too? And wouldn't it also protect them from attack if/when they did get detected. Still, it is marginal, I agree.

[Xystophoroi]

Exactly, unfortunately old faithful is hard to model in a game. I would carry one simply because the M1911 frame is the most comfortable pistol I have ever had the pleasure to hold or fire. If you need more punch get a .460 conversion kit and say hello to serious destruction.

Might be nice to see an option to spend karma on a piece of equipment, not alot as equipment can be highly disposable, but maybe you could buy edge for a piece of quipment so when you use that item you could spend the point of edge to get the reroll failures/add edge+6-again and ignore limits etc. on any roll you make using that item.

Burn the edge to make sure you somehow get the item back again in the same way you'd burn edge to not die yourself etc.

Something to represent that - while it may not be technically the best - it's the best for you.

[Faelan]

Might be nice to see an option to spend karma on a piece of equipment, not alot as equipment can be highly disposable, but maybe you could buy edge for a piece of quipment so when you use that item you could spend the point of edge to get the reroll failures/add edge+6-again and ignore limits etc. on any roll you make using that item.

Burn the edge to make sure you somehow get the item back again in the same way you'd burn edge to not die yourself etc.

Something to represent that - while it may not be technically the best - it's the best for you.

I have done something similar in other games, and it works very well. Your lucky knife, really is your lucky knife.

[Sendaz]

Might be nice to see an option to spend karma on a piece of equipment, not alot as equipment can be highly disposable, but maybe you could buy edge for a piece of quipment so when you use that item you could spend the point of edge to get the reroll failures/add edge+6-again and ignore limits etc. on any roll you make using that item.

Burn the edge to make sure you somehow get the item back again in the same way you'd burn edge to not die yourself etc.

Something to represent that - while it may not be technically the best - it's the best for you.

I can sort of see this as it is not dissimilar to binding a device like ED did as a pattern item, however I would be careful as you mention buying edge for the piece of equipment.

Are they really buying in to make it their own special item or are they trying to score a few extra points of edge at a lower point cost.

IE rather than paying the difference for taking your Edge from 5 to 6 for general edge use, buying in 1 pt Edge for your 'favorite' gun may well be cheaper.

Which is not necessarily that unbalancing as it is sort of an Edge specialization, but also how does the item recover edge? When the player does? Every 8 hours? etc??

The item certainly should not automatically get an edge back if the player gets edge back for an action not related to the function of that particular piece of equipment, but could for actions related to it's function.
(Pulling off a daring trick shot with your special pistol to save a hostage while exposing yourself in the process springs to mind)

Granted you do risk that spent karma because if that item is lost/stolen/destroyed, you are out that investment.

[hermit]

Maybe the solution (if your problem is that every 3rd security guard is actually a spider /sigh) is that decks should an upgrade path for Samurai? The worst deck is 49K, set the 4 stat to sleaze, up it to 5 with software, don't necessarily treat logic as a dump stat and hey presto you're now rolling 8-9 die on opposed rolls to avoid detection.

The deck can even be cyberware so you don't have to cart it around.

Sure, being a decker is a way out of the box the rules wrote themselves into - one of the few viable ones. However, it is also very expensive, especially for beginner characters, and will drag them down massively in their core competency. And, if every non-magical character is forced to become a decker just to be somewhat able to defend themselves against matrix attacks, the decker, again, becomes more or less futile. Not that, as Jaid wrote, 9 dice will get you very far when you have to refend against some 5 successes.

Plus, you do not need every third guard to be a decker. You only need one or two deckers on site, who alpha the group decker's deck and then go to town on the mundanes' de facto unprotected wares.

Which is not necessarily that unbalancing as it is sort of an Edge specialization, but also how does the item recover edge? When the player does? Every 8 hours? etc??

When it's hooked up to the matrix for the newest update (because hackability is awesome). To stay with the spirit of the rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

[Jaid]

Could you not slave other devices to it too? And wouldn't it also protect them from attack if/when they did get detected. Still, it is marginal, I agree.

well, that particular deck you could slave a grand total of 3 devices to it.

and it would still all be detectable far too easily for comfort.

[Faelan]

I can sort of see this as it is not dissimilar to binding a device like ED did as a pattern item, however I would be careful as you mention buying edge for the piece of equipment.

Are they really buying in to make it their own special item or are they trying to score a few extra points of edge at a lower point cost.

IE rather than paying the difference for taking your Edge from 5 to 6 for general edge use, buying in 1 pt Edge for your 'favorite' gun may well be cheaper.

Which is not necessarily that unbalancing as it is sort of an Edge specialization, but also how does the item recover edge? When the player does? Every 8 hours? etc??

The item certainly should not automatically get an edge back if the player gets edge back for an action not related to the function of that particular piece of equipment, but could for actions related to it's function.
(Pulling off a daring trick shot with your special pistol to save a hostage while exposing yourself in the process springs to mind)

Granted you do risk that spent karma because if that item is lost/stolen/destroyed, you are out that investment.

The Cheaper Edge issue is solved by having the GM decide when it can be bought, and increased along with deciding when it can be replenished.

[Xystophoroi]

I can sort of see this as it is not dissimilar to binding a device like ED did as a pattern item, however I would be careful as you mention buying edge for the piece of equipment.

Are they really buying in to make it their own special item or are they trying to score a few extra points of edge at a lower point cost.

IE rather than paying the difference for taking your Edge from 5 to 6 for general edge use, buying in 1 pt Edge for your 'favorite' gun may well be cheaper.

Which is not necessarily that unbalancing as it is sort of an Edge specialization, but also how does the item recover edge? When the player does? Every 8 hours? etc??

The item certainly should not automatically get an edge back if the player gets edge back for an action not related to the function of that particular piece of equipment, but could for actions related to it's function.
(Pulling off a daring trick shot with your special pistol to save a hostage while exposing yourself in the process springs to mind)

Granted you do risk that spent karma because if that item is lost/stolen/destroyed, you are out that investment.

Probably have

1. 'training time' with the item to be allowed to buy the Edge - i.e.: an off the shelf pistol is not your old reliable, not until it's been through hell and back with you
2. buy edge 1 rather than edge 6 would be cheaper yes, but the payout is worse as spending edge then only nets you +1 dice rather than +6 (the other uses of edge notwithstanding)
3. recharge...when you do something badass with the item (and don't spend your natural edge on it maybe?), recharge once per day/week or once per run as an arbitrary timer?

It's just an idea at this point, I can see the concerns though.

[Chimera]

I am ok with the concept of having your weapon be in hidden mode if its wireless and there not being a true rules drawback beyond the role-play aspect; I'm really alright with that. The issue that I have is that the example that the 5E book uses on p.228 is misleading.

I'll give you that most neer-do-wells (read criminals and gangers) don't always have a logic score above 2, but in this case I would think that the ork would have had his gun in hidden mode when he jumped the decker in question; which means the decker would have had to 1. see if there are hidden icons, and 2. perceive and identify the hidden icon BEFORE he starts throwing data spikes. Any GM (or player) who's skimmed over the matrix rules would come to the conclusion it doesn't make sense not to have guns in hidden mode (I came to that conclusion, and I originally started the thread to see if there was something I missed).

As someone who has taken way to many college courses and read far too many game system rulebooks, I will say that those sort of rules example stories are quite helpful in learning and applying the game mechanics. I just wish they had included that in the example, because otherwise bricking devices would seem even easier to do (fewer tests before you actually start doing matrix damage).

[Jaid]

the default assumption in SR5 is that people are dumb as rocks when it comes to the matrix, unless they're a hacker. everyone else is too stupid to even attempt to comprehend the implications of turning wireless on for everything, and are dumb enough to believe in a world where they have a huge agency entirely devoted to punishing hackers for hacking, but where hacking doesn't ever happen anyways.

[Xystophoroi]

the default assumption in SR5 is that people are dumb as rocks when it comes to the matrix, unless they're a hacker. everyone else is too stupid to even attempt to comprehend the implications of turning wireless on for everything, and are dumb enough to believe in a world where they have a huge agency entirely devoted to punishing hackers for hacking, but where hacking doesn't ever happen anyways.

Except the Missions first adventure the opposition generally have the 'Wireless Off' note.

So...Missions have wireless off at least so the guards there have some basic sense.

[Jaid]

missions is almost like an entirely different setting. they have to not be stupid there, because the missions team actually has to sell a product that functions on it's own. hence, missions not only had errata (sorry, "FAQ") first, but their errata is also correcting some of the actual problems in the game instead of being largely inconsequential.

[Smash]

I am ok with the concept of having your weapon be in hidden mode if its wireless and there not being a true rules drawback beyond the role-play aspect; I'm really alright with that. The issue that I have is that the example that the 5E book uses on p.228 is misleading.

I'll give you that most neer-do-wells (read criminals and gangers) don't always have a logic score above 2, but in this case I would think that the ork would have had his gun in hidden mode when he jumped the decker in question; which means the decker would have had to 1. see if there are hidden icons, and 2. perceive and identify the hidden icon BEFORE he starts throwing data spikes. Any GM (or player) who's skimmed over the matrix rules would come to the conclusion it doesn't make sense not to have guns in hidden mode (I came to that conclusion, and I originally started the thread to see if there was something I missed).

As someone who has taken way to many college courses and read far too many game system rulebooks, I will say that those sort of rules example stories are quite helpful in learning and applying the game mechanics. I just wish they had included that in the example, because otherwise bricking devices would seem even easier to do (fewer tests before you actually start doing matrix damage).

Not that it's applicable 100% of the time but I'd imagine it's illegal to have guns in hidden mode.

[psychophipps]

Not that it's applicable 100% of the time but I'd imagine it's illegal to have guns in hidden mode.

I have a very hard time imagining that gun owners would be any sort of supportive of even the idea of mandatory wi-fi beacons being on their firearms. To be frank, the professional firearms carriers would be even more so, what with under cover police officers, plainclothes security, and the like. Imagine the killing (literally) hackers could make by trolling around town and randomly photographing people with firearm pings along with pictures and a bit of digging in public social media sites.

[SpellBinder]

Great deterrent if you detect that a random homeowner has several firearm icons in their home. However, since a bricked firearm is useless...

[Xystophoroi]

I guess it depends on how frequently you think people are doing Matrix Perception tests for hidden icons and then spending time working out which ones are which and where they are (then potentially dealing with the Wrapper program).

Stop and search at security points? Sure, could be troublesome (esp. if you're using a Wrapper) but just walking around?

[Smash]

I have a very hard time imagining that gun owners would be any sort of supportive of even the idea of mandatory wi-fi beacons being on their firearms.

That's the great thing about Dystopia: What you want doesn't matter. If the powers that be say you need to have it on, you need to have it on.

To be frank, the professional firearms carriers would be even more so, what with under cover police officers, plainclothes security, and the like.

Of course under-cover police wouldn't need them on, but your average schmucks would and everyone else who doesn't have it on is fine until the gun gets found on them..... even if they have a license on them.

Imagine the killing (literally) hackers could make by trolling around town and randomly photographing people with firearm pings along with pictures and a bit of digging in public social media sites.

I don't follow. In general you will be walking around with your gun, your license and your SIN all broadcasting. What money is there to be made? If you're suggesting that hackers can use the wireless on function to gain access to someone's PAN, then yeah....... they're supposed to have a point afterall.

[Slide_Eurhetemec]

I have a very hard time imagining that gun owners would be any sort of supportive of even the idea of mandatory wi-fi beacons being on their firearms. To be frank, the professional firearms carriers would be even more so, what with under cover police officers, plainclothes security, and the like. Imagine the killing (literally) hackers could make by trolling around town and randomly photographing people with firearm pings along with pictures and a bit of digging in public social media sites.

I agree. Shadowrun is about a vastly more violent world where people carrying and using firearms is far more common (than even the present-day US). This is made pretty clear in numerous sourcebooks (even if some are overblown - some of the 2E ones claim 70%+ of adults carry guns in most cities - I'd only buy that was true for Seattle, myself, and that's only because literally every single person in Seattle is a shadowrunner, right down to the guy who runs the Stuffer Shack and your local dog-walker), so there's no way it's illegal to turn on hidden mode, especially as it won't stop the cops shutting down your weapons - at worst it would slow them down slightly (because your legal weapons are connected directly to your SIN by their licenses).