looking for a basic mage build, book builds suck, want a semi munchy one Options

[cutter07]

Looking for a basic mage build I can tweak for my first caster in awhile. Looking for someone who can handle well in a firefight but not a pure hellbringer. I not lazy, just not real good for mage tweaking. Any help would be nice, thanks

[A Clockwork Lime]

Here's a simple baseline to work off of. Have fun. :) Dunno why you didn't just use one of the archetypes, though. :)

Priorities: Magic A, Attributes B, Resources C, Skills D, Race E

Attributes: Bod 3, Qui 4, Str 2, Cha 6, Int 6, Wil 6

Active Skills: Aura Reading 6, Conjuring 6, Etiquette 3 (Street 5), Pistols 3 (Colt Manhunter 5), Sorcery 6, Stealth 4

Knowledge Skills: Magical Background 6; 24 points to season to flavor

Spells: Heal 6!*, Improved Invisibility 4*, Increase Reflexes 3D6 1, Stunbolt 6*. 15 more points to season to flavor
* indicates fetish-limited spells (Drain)
! indicates Exclusive spells (Cost)

Bonded Foci: Sustaining Focus 1 (Increase Reflexes 3D6)

Weapons: Colt Manhunter with Concealed Holster, 2 Spare Clips, Personalized Grip, and 50 Rounds of Ammo (choose whatever type you prefer)

Armor: Vashon Island Actioneer Line, Form-Fitting Body Armor (Full Body)

Other Equipment: Conjuring Library 6, Conjuring Materials (20), Fetishes, Pocket Secretary, Ford Americar, Low Lifestyle (1 month), DocWagon Contract: Basic (1 year)

[Eyeless Blond]

Shouldn't Imp. Invis be 5 or 3? It would make the drain much easer at 3, and the drain is the same at 5.

[TinkerGnome]

I'm not done fiddling with this, but here's a basic outline for a mage/semi-decker:

Priorities: Magic A, Resources B, Attributes C, Race D, Skills E

Race: Dwarf

Attributes Body 3, Quickness 4, Strength 3, Charisma 6, Intelligence 6, Willpower 6

Active Skills: Conjuring 6, Sorcery 6, Computer 6, Stealth 4, Etiquette (street) 2/4), Aura Reading 2

Knowledge Skills: Magic Background 6, Talismongering 6, System familiarities, etc.

Spells: Increased Reflexes +3 1, Improved Invisibility 5, Stealth 3, Stunbolt 6, Levitate 5, Heal (exclusive) 3, Fashion (exclusive) 3

Bonded Foci: Sustaining Foci: F1 (increased reflexes), F1 Improved Invisibility

Gear: 2 foci, Conjuring Library 6 on OMC, MPCP-6 cyberdeck (stock), Summoning materials & refined materials for talismongering into more

Cyberware (all alpha): Datajack, Chipjack, CED 2, Skillwires R3

Skillchips: virtually everything at rating 3 (27 MP)

[A Clockwork Lime]

[Eyeless Blond]

Oh, is *that* how it works? I thought it reduced the Drain directly. My bad.

[Dashifen]

ACL, another question: I didn't think you could limit a spell with both exclusive and fetish limitations. Does your heal spell above work because one is limited for cost and the other for drain? And, when you say cost, I assume you mean the cost for learning a spell?

[A Clockwork Lime]

Yeah, I used to make that mistake, too, Blond.

You got it, Dashifen. You can only have a single limitations per aspect of the spell and you can't use the same limitation twice, but otherwise you're free to use both. For instance, you can have an Exclusive limitation on the cost and a Fetish limitation on the drain, but you can't have a Fetish for both the cost and the drain or both a Fetish and Exclusive on the drain.

And yes, the Spell Points/Karma cost for the spell is what's reduced.

[booklord]

Both those mages are perfect examples of why the Increased reflexes spell is broken.

[TinkerGnome]

[A Clockwork Lime]

[Jason Farlander]

Increased reflexes (Houserule version)

Drain: +1(D)
TN ®
Effect: Every two successes on the sorcery test provide +1d6 to the Target's Initiative, with a maximum bonus equal to half the force of the spell (round down).

[TinkerGnome]

Fix it how you like, but 5+4d6 initiative is still a lot worse than the 11+3d6 initiative that a relatively average starting sammie gets. A physical adept also easily gets 9+3d6, which is on par with the mage's. The difference is that the mage has to recast his spell frequently and suffer 3D drain. Not to mention the point of karma it takes any time the focus gets destroyed (which can be pretty often). Not to mention the hell that alarm wards can cause for someone with active foci.

Houseruled versions tend to make mages very, very slow because no one can actually achieve +3d6 with them. I prefer it the way it is, really. I also prefer pretty commonplace wards in my games, so it balances out.

[cutter07]

[RedmondLarry]

[Glyph]

Here's one I did using only the Basic Rulebook. This is an ork wage mage who got tired of the glass ceiling and decided to take off on his own. Although he is a face type with a good range of spells and contacts, he can still be effective in combat when he needs to. He can command up to 5 elementals at once (and they can be very effective in combat), and if he needs to really pump up a combat spell, he can have an elemental use Aid Sorcery, use one of his Expendable Combat Foci, and empty out his Spell Pool - 23 dice, which is not bad. Plus, his Sustaining Focus gives him a decent initiative.


Here is the breakdown:
A: Magic (Hermetic Mage)
B: Resources
C: Attributes
D: Race (Ork)
E: Skills

Ork Hermetic Mage
Attributes -
Body: 4
Quickness: 4
Strength: 3
Charisma: 5
Intelligence: 5
Willpower: 6
Essence: 6
Magic: 6
Reaction: 4

Initiative: 4 + 1d6 (4d6)
Combat Pool: 7
Spell Pool: 5
Astral Combat Pool: 8
Karma Pool: 1

Active Skills -
Computer: 1
Conjuring: 6
Etiquette: 5
Negotiation: 5
Sorcery: 6
Stealth: 4

Knowledge Skills -
(Languages)
English/Magespeak: 4/6 Read/Write: 2/-
Japanese: 4 Read/Write: 2
(Other Skills)
Corporate Politics: 4
Magical Background: 5
Magical Groups: 4
Parapsychology: 5
Spell Design: 5

Spells - (Note: Purchased 4 extra Spell Points)
Manabolt: 6
Stunball: 6
Mindlink: 1
Heal: 6
Healthy Glow: 1
Increase Reflexes +3: 1
Trid Entertainment (Exclusive): 1(3)
Influence: 6

Bonded Magical Foci -
Sustaining Focus: 1 (Increase Reflexes +3)

Contacts -
Academic Mage (Level 1)
Entertainment Mage (Level 1)
Fixer (Level 2)
Fuchi Decker (Level 1)
NewsNet Snoop (Level 2)
Seattle City Official (Level 2)
Talismonger (Level 2)
Yamatetsu Suit (Level 1)

Lifestyles: 1 High (1 Month) and 1 Low (1 Month).
Credstick Balance: 3d6 x 100 Nuyen.

Gear -
DocWagon Contract: Gold.
Fake ID: Fake Gold Credstick (Rating: 6).
Magic: Conjuring: 6 and Sorcery: 6 Libraries with Data Display (200 Mp), 3 Force: 6 Expendable Combat Foci, Elemental Conjuring Materials (Force: 6 x 10).
Armor/Clothing: Secure Long Coat, Ordinary Clothing (x 7), Fine Clothing (x 2), Tres Chic Clothing (x 2).
Other Gear: Duffel Bag (of 100 Nuyen cost), Medkit, Wrist Phone with Flip-up Screen, Pager, 2 Antidote: 6 Slap Patches, Music Player with Quad Speakers and 12 Music Disks, Telecom (10 Mp) with Disposable Printer.

[Cain]

[A Clockwork Lime]

It's nice, I won't lie there. But considering some of the other pains magician have to deal with (and while they have a bunch of potential, they can be a burden to play), that's a really minor gain in their favor. Especially since most of them can't afford both the magic and the implants to keep up with the Jones' in the number-of-actions-per-turn scene.

An average of two or three if you have obscenely high Attributes isn't really that bad, especially since it is a fragile and tentative boost to begin with. Characters with Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Accelerators rarely have to worry about having their boosts stripped from them or setting off alarms right in the middle of a job, but magicians with a Sustaining Focus certainly do. Financially, it's about on par with Boosted Reflexes 2, too; the equivalence of about 40,000 nuyen (25,000 for the spell point and 15,000 for the focus).

Don't get me wrong, I understand why people don't much care for it, but I hardly think it's munchy or even broken. About the only character type that doesn't have a convenient reflex boost in some fashion is the aspected Conjurer. Everyone else pretty much has a "must have" reflex boost easily within their means. Cyber-types and/or other high Resources characters snag cyberware, adepts grab the adept power, sorcerers grab the spell and focus, riggers grab the VCR, and deckers get the Response Increase. Aspected conjurers are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head who have to go outside their focus to get any type of boost.

[Lilt]

[disclaimer] The following character has been tweaked. Perhaps too much.

I advise that if you are opposed to munchkinning, do not look inside this spoiler tag.[/disclaimer]

[ Spoiler ]

First-off: Some ideas I'm basing this character on:

Initiation gives you +1 magic attribute and gives you access to nifty powers like Centering. It should cost you around 12 spell points.

If you want your mage to center, it's best to think about it at chargen as buying skills up-to 6 costs a lot of karma.

If you are initiating at chargen, you can buy a familiar spirit that must cost at-least 9 karma

9 karma can get you a force 2 ally/familiar spirit with a few bells & whistles

Force 2 ally spiriyscan act as force 2 power foci, but 9 karma is less than it costs to bond a force 2 power focus (plus you don't need to pay the cash for the focus

Ally spirits are sumpremely versatile. They can provide spell defense, fight as well as you can in astral combat, and help save a lot of time/money if you are a mage and give them talismongering.

Talismongering makes a mage *far* cheaper. Depending on what your GM lets you get away with, elemental costs can drop as low as 60 :nuyen: per point of force (Compare that to the 1k :nuyen: per force cost for elemental conjuring materials)

If you have bonus dice (from centering, power foci, or whatever) then casting improved invisibility 1 well eough that almost nobody can see you is a sinch. Slap it in a sustaining focus if you can.

Force 1 Increase Reflexes +3 is the drek. Slap it in a sustaining focus if you can.

Willpower is the drek. If you're using edges and flaws then Bonus Attribute Point (Willpower) is great.

Home ground is also great for mages.

The Trauma Damper is insanely good for mages, and well worth a geas on a magic point by the errated M&M rules.

Let's look at what we've got so far:
A: Magic (Full Mage/Shaman)
B: Resources
C: Attributes
D: Race (Dwarf)
E: Skills

Attributes (24 pts)
B 2 +1 3
Q 3 +0 3
S 1 +2 3
C 6 +0 6
I 6 +0 6
W 6 +1 7 (8 if you get bonus attribute point (willpower))

E 6
M 7(6) (Gesture Geas)
R 4
I +1d6(+4d6)

Pools:
Comb@: 8
Spell: 6 (7 if you take the bonus willpower)
Astral Comb@: 9 (10 if you take the bonus willpower)
Astral Pool: 1 (For being a grade 1 initiate)

Skills (27 pts)
Sorcery 6
Conjuring 6
Centering 6 (linked to a knowledge skill)
Stealth 3
Ettiquette 3
Some Melee/Ranged combat skill 3

Knowledge & Language Skills (30 pts + 9 pts languages)
Talismongering 6 (only really important if you're a mage)
+Whatever

Spell points (25) +12 bought with resources
3 Join Magical Group
9 Initiate with Familiar Ordeal (centering metamagic)
9 Familiar: Force 2 (5 pts), Talismongering 6 (3 pts), Alternate Form (1 pt)
1 Improved Invisibility 1
1 Bond Focus
1 Increase Reflexes +3 1
1 Bond Focus
6 Generic Combat Spell
6 pts for another powerful spell
It shouldn't take long to fill-in the gaps in you spell layout in the game. You can go on rating 1-2 astral quests to speed the process up too

Resources: 400k
300k Spell Points
40k Trauma Damper
15k F1 Sustaining Focus
15k F1 Sustaining Focus
30k for whatever else you want.
He may have to cut back on the spell points if you want him to be a mage.

Well: He's designed, tweaked, twinked, 7W!NKD, and munchkinned. All he needs now is a background.

It might not be exactly what you wanted, but there may be some ideas there you could use.

[simonw2000]

Take specialisations: Sorcery/Spellcasting 5/7, Conjuring/specialisation of your choice 5/7 and Enchanting/Artificing 5/7. What do you think of that? :D

[Lilt]

Usually makes use all of the various specialisations available to them. It's cheaper in the long run just to buy the skill at 6 and buy the specialisation later, especially if you're a dwarf with a willpower higher than 6.

It may be worthwhile for alchemy though. It's actually cheaper to buy the specialisations (of which there are only two) up separately than to buy the base skill up. If you make sure you have a good base rating (4-5) then you can reach very high specialisations quite cheaply.

[lacemaker]

[Lilt]

[lacemaker]

Frankly no, it's not. The difference betwene a magic A/stats B mage and a stats A/tech B samurai doesn't have much to do with the extra stat points at all - they're handy, but they're not the kind of edge that makes a character really effective. The equaliser for a mundane is the fact that they've got 6 essence which they can blow on cyberwear - which is while you'll never see a mundane with 6 essence on any of the "design a character that rocks" threads here (note that I in no way intend to question the validity of such characters, they can be great to play and can be quite effective. But you're never going to design one if you're looking for power).

By going the cyberwear route instead of the magic route, the sammy gets access to some nice stuff, but they are expected, and habitually do, expend the largest portion of their cash and (permanently limited) essence on speed boosts. It is on this basis that I suggest that reflexs are at the core of the samurai's character conception - more than the eyes, razors, smartgun and muscle replacement/armour stuff. The rules require a cybered character to make enormous sacrifices in order to move faster, and they do it.

A mage's edge is all the stuff I listed before - they're not spending their four priorities in order to get access to discount reflex boosting, they're getting plenty of nice stuff without it. Reflex boosting allows sammy's to do something qualatatively different from mages, it's not astral space or summoning a spirit, but it's close to as useful, and artificially sustained reflex boosting magic makes that difference disappear - and yes I'm aware of the disadvantages, much as I am aware of metal detectors and cyberwear damage - it would be like providing an astral projection implant for 0.25 essence.

Anyway, it's late, I'll respond to your no doubt lengthy defence of awakened costs and benefits tomorrow.

BTW, please don't ask "where are you getting this from in the rulebook" again, obviously these are all statements of opinion, as any discussion about whether the existing rules are balanced inherently must be...

[Lilt]

Firstly: A comparisson between a magic A/stats B mage and a stats A/tech B sammie isn't really accurate. The sammy just puts magic in as low a priority as he can. The mage needs at-least some resources to be effective (and be able to afford even the 15k sustaining focus).

The argument that reflexes are at the core of the samurai's character conception is exactly what I was refuting with my question of where it says that in a book. High initiative is powerful in the same way that any high attribute or skill can be powerful. Sammies spend a lot on them, that allows them to move quickly and shoot guns several times. The fact that a sammie can do that is no reason, however, to forbid a mage from using some of his power (which he has already spent a lot on) to boost his initiative.

Mages get a fair bit to play with, but they're also vulnerable to losing what they have. They can't even use stim patches without risking losing magic, for example. If mages take cyberware, even a datajack, then they lose magic. Mages also have to contend with drain for much of what they do.

Very often mages need spell pool (often most/all of it) to cast spells effectively (and survive the drain), so the high reflexes mage probably won't be as effective as the sammie unless they limit themselves to low drain (hence low damage) spells. The sammie with an Ares Predator, Smartlink, and skill 6 can still deal deadly wounds twice per initiative pass.