Behold the power of Fetish limitations. Resistance TN of Force 4 spell, effective Drain of a Force 3 spell.

Yep. Though the only reason I'd sustain a force 1 improved invisibility is to avoid technological sensors and cameras (though it's just as broken in its own way, since a good mage could be impossible for most people to see at force 1... just get more successes than most people can roll dice).

Yeah. Reaction 5 is so munchy. Surprise Tests will be lost on a regular basis and Quick Draw tests will fail on far more often than they would with even Wired Reflexes 1. Average reaction will be 19; a whole two actions per Turn, all due to an easily-disrupted spell and focus (should an opponent wish to do so).

Damn munchkins.

Wow you take sarcasim to a whole new high.

All great start people thanks. Now I need to go read the 3rd edition spells more. Been a long time since Hellfire in 1st editions,..

Why do you think book builds suck? I may have my own reasons for thinking that. I want to hear what yours are.

Well, I wouldn't call it broken or munchy; but it is overpowered in relation to other comparable spells or reflex boosts. 15000 nuyen and one karma for the equivalent of boosted 2. It's not horrid, but it is a bit much.

The things is, reflex boosts are supposed to be one of the things that mundane characters get access to to make up for not having any of the magical goodies that mages get. If Sammy's are devoting half of their essence to a reflex boost at chargen, and basically cutting off any real form of progression in terms of their 'ware by doing that, then that should represent a major portion of their character concept - they're the fast guy. Just as the mage is the guy who can whistle up spirits, scout ahead in astral form and perform a crazy array of stuff with spells. If you're saying that a mage should be able to start as fast as a low-end sammy for minimal cost then you're eroding one of the key advantages that goes with being mundane.

And I don't buy the claim that mages have so many hassles and disadvatanges that their extreme versatility is cancelled out - I find well-played mages as very overpowered even when I use techniques to discourage reflex boosting spells.

Erm. Supposed to be? Do you have a page reference or anything to back that up at-all? Mundanes get 25-30 build-points for what they don't spend on being magical. Isn't that enough?

Mages spend 25-30bps (or priority A/B) to be magical. The reflex boost isn't exactly '2 spell points and 15k nuyen', it's 'must have spent A/B/30/25 priorities/BPs on being full mage/sorcerer then spend 2 spell points and 15k nuyen to get a reflex boost that is hard to sneak past wards and can be taken-out by almost any astral entity if it's not protected well enough'.

My own house ruled increase Reflexes spell was finalized after a discussion on this board. I'm actually quite more lenient than some in that discussion.

Drain:+1(D)
TN:6
Effect:Every success on the sorcery test provides +1d6 to the Target's Initiative, with a maximum bonus equal to the force of the spell.

If there is one area of shadowrun, I absolutely abhor it is the surprise test. It makes the advantage that Street Samurai get in Initiative look minor. The way the rules read a street samurai could walk into an ambush and by sheer number of dice rolled completely surprise everyone of the ambushers. My current houserule for this is simple. Roll the surprise test as normal. If a character fails to get any successes then the character is surprised and can't do anything that combat turn. Otherwise the character is not surprised.

In addition I have a separate rule designed to limit character's from achieving power spell effects using Force 1 spells. This would be particularly affective in stopping the Improved Invisibility from simply overloading the spell with sucesses so your normal intelligence guy couldn't resist.

HOUSE RULE: On maximum successes for a spell.
No spell after being cast can have more than net success ( after factoring spell defense and the target's resistance roll ) then the Force of the spell.

Example #1: A sleep bolt at Force 1 is cast at a rent-a-cop security guard. The mage scores 10 successes. However a nearby mage senses the spell and uses spell defense to protect the guard but only gets 5 successes. The guard with his WP of 2 scores 2 successes. That leaves the spell with 3 successes, but because the spell is only Force 1 that is reduced to 1 success.

In the case of Improved Invisibility that means that at Force 1 the spell could only have 1 success.

<jaw hits the floor>

Now that's a munchy spell.

Less Munchy then the Increased Reflexes +3 spell currently out there. I wanted to take the edge off. Not make it incredibly expensive.

Did I miss anything? I didn't have the spell in front of me and typed it from memory.

This of course cannot be combined with any other form of iniative dice enhancement. Note once you get to about 4 or 5 dice of initiave enhancement you become a danger to everyone around you friend or foe. At 6 or above you are entering "Beavis on coffee territory". In many ways Increased Reflexes is a highly dangerous spell since you get the reflexes but not the reaction to back it up.

Lime, I think you're missing something. Yes, a sustaining focus can easily be activated. All the owner has to do is recast the spell.

The owner really won't want to turn off the focus to go through the ward at the entrance and then recast the proposed Force 6 Incr. Reflexes spell on the other side. Not when a Force 6 spell has a 7D drain code!

My 2 cents worth: don't put a +6D6 initiative spell into the game.

Or maybe the mage can use the 15k from his first paycheck to supercharge his character. That's certainly what my players always try when using priorities.

More generally, my concern is rooted in a belief, which I appear to share with Cain, that mages gain a great deal of influence over all aspect of the game for their four priorities, certainly more than any reasonable number of skill or attribute points can compensate for.

While I agree that a non-magical, non-cybered character can be very interesting to play, if we're talking about power then we are comparing the magical route to the cyber route - and it is my belief that, in order to represent any kind of balanced choice cyber has to offer more than just a few bonus attribute points in order to offset spirits, astral projection, enchanting, ritual magic and spellcasting.

The rules and published archetypes appear to acknowledge that a reflex boost isn't just part of a suite of generic attribute boosters, because they price it, in terms of essence and nuyen cost, far above the top levels of other boosts, and yet it remains extremely popular, and indeed nearly ubiquitous. So a choice to base your character around cyber practically means a choice to base your character around reflex boosts and a bunch of other stuff. Characters are asked to, and do, permanently focus their "edge" on being faster than the average guy. This ought to mean something.

Now, what about mages? I'll repeat that this is to some extent predicated on a belief that they get a lot for their four priorities, and that the costs aren't that great. Not being able to use cyber is not a disadvantage - it is an aspect of the choice to go with magic rather than cyber. And with the new geas rules even that choice is pretty non binding. Not being able to use stim patches isn't much of an issue either - it is an aspect of the drain rules. Most mundane characters in my game go half a dozen runs without ever using one, the reason mages are banned is becuase they have a special reason to want them. This too is an aspect of the magic rules. A mage is not, as in most other systems, banned from using the same heavy weapons and heavy armor that other characters use, except where those weapons or portections have a cyber aspect. Finally, combat pool plays much the same role as spell pool, and a mage can use all their combat pool to dodge incoming attacks. And even a low drain spell packs more punch than the type of hardware a sammy will normally have on their person.
The key thing a sammy can do that a mage can not (or should not) be able to, the key qualatative difference in how they play, as opposed to extra power for their unarmed attacks, improved laser sights and some extra armor, is to act earlier and more often than the mage. A force one reflex boost is a dirt cheap trick that makes that difference dissappear - and the fact that anyone designing a tweaked mage thinks it is such a no brainer, including yourself, just underlines how underpriced it is. This basically turns a normally kitted out sammy into the guy with a few extra attribute points and who doesn't have to carry a knife or goggles because he got them implanted, and that doesn't come close to making cyber a viable alternative edge.

It is your belief, but I think most of us agree that cyber gives far more than just a few attribute points. Smartlinks are a good start, so too are skillwires, senseware, cyberweapons, Enhanced Artwinkulation, Mnemonic Enhancers, trauma dampers, Tailored Pheramones, Cerebral Boosters, the Synaptic Accelerator/Boosted reflexes combo, Trauma dampeners, Platet factories, and Nanoware biomonitors.
Also: If the increased reflexes is so powerful when considered with the other abilities, then why do you consider it so much worse than any of the other abilities? Why don't you declare mannabolt broken because it can be used to kill people? Or why don't I declare firearms to be broken because they don't require people to make drain tests? Your argument seems to be based purely on your oppinion of how things should work rather than facts.

Reflex boosts are quite expencive, yes. Compare it to something like muscle replacement though and it dosen't seem that bad. Low-end reflex boosts such-as Boosted 1 and Synaptic Accelerator 1 are affordable and give some good boosts. If someone's character concept is 'fast guy', which strikes me as a fairly poor character concept in the first place, then why dosen't he buy the dammn gear to do it in the first place? Synaptic 2 and Boosted 3 gets you moving fast. If you tack-on enhanced articulation, reaction enhancer 6, muscle toner 4, and a cerebral booster 2 than that sammie is dammn fast. Slap that on an elf with bonus attribute point quickness and you have something like 18+5D6 initiative.

I'd also refute your claim that low drain spells pack the same punch as gear that a sammy can carry on his person, but we've yet to determine exactly what a low drain spell is. If you'd like to do that then I'm pretty sure I could explain how sammies could carry gear on their persons to match or exceed the abilities of the spell.

I know that mages are not forbidden from using heavy weapons. That is part of, and is partially the beauty of, the shadowrun game and world. Classes are what D&D does, and if you actually wanted them then I'm sure you'd be discussing the merits of the haste spell on some D&D board right now.

As another interesting point: Did you know that any character, even a sammy can get +3d6 initiative using the increase reflexes +3 method? For only 16k a complete mundane can buy an expendable anchoring focus with Increase Reflexes +3 cast in it.

Perhaps. You can, however, control this just as easily as the GD ATGM you mentioned. First, the TN to learn that spell is 20 - not exactly something to sneeze at. Additionally, it requires a rating 10 sorcery library or shamanic lodge - again, not anything I've found to be particularly common among shadowrunners, and, as gear, things that are easy to control access to. If the inherent difficulty in learning the spell isnt sufficient for you, simply state that there are no force 10 spells on the market.

That idiot who still wants the spell *could* attempt to design it himself, but doing so would require a spell design skill of 10 as well as the rating 10 library or lodge. If youre getting to the point in a game where characters have skill values of 10+, I dont really see how your concern about game balance applies.

For the entirety of every game I've run or participated in, the two successes per die/max successes = force version of the spell works beautifully, and is certainly more balanced against mundane characters than the current incarnation of the spell.

Erm... Those rules are for designing the spell, not learning it which would still take a F*2 test using sorcery.

Erm...

I was addressing the post above mine, specifically:

Emphasis mine. Replace that word with design and I'll be perfectly happy

You know . . .
I can see some seriously twisted bioware experiment that took matter from a projecting-capable mage, and implanted it into someone else . . . maybe an adept who already had perception, or something ...

That would probably screw game balance, but ... at the same time . . . if not, it still sounds cool as a onetime plot hook, or something.

Probably the Azzies that would do it . . .

I don't recall seeing anything in Canon relating the number of initiative dice to the Reaction [calculated] attribute, reflecting in any way, shape, or form on accidental aggressive acts.

The only thing related to that that I've seen is the Wired Reflexes' notable flaw of causing you to be jumpy, hence the need for a reaction trigger. Most people interpret this to mean that the Wired character is apt to snap-shot the kindergartener that says "Boo" if his reflexes are On.

I don't believe it indicates anywhere that other sources of reflex enhancement (Boosted, Adept power, magical spell) cause similar jumpiness. In fact, because it doesn't say so, I interpret this to mean that they do NOT. I would imagine that the mage's spell affects him in much the same way as the adept's power. (Tho I haven't read the magic chapter in a while, so I couldbe wrong on the spell effect.)

- gtk