cutter07
May 5 2004, 02:10 AM
Looking for a basic mage build I can tweak for my first caster in awhile. Looking for someone who can handle well in a firefight but not a pure hellbringer. I not lazy, just not real good for mage tweaking. Any help would be nice, thanks
A Clockwork Lime
May 5 2004, 02:20 AM
Here's a simple baseline to work off of. Have fun.
Dunno why you didn't just use one of the archetypes, though.
Priorities: Magic A, Attributes B, Resources C, Skills D, Race E
Attributes: Bod 3, Qui 4, Str 2, Cha 6, Int 6, Wil 6
Active Skills: Aura Reading 6, Conjuring 6, Etiquette 3 (Street 5), Pistols 3 (Colt Manhunter 5), Sorcery 6, Stealth 4
Knowledge Skills: Magical Background 6; 24 points to season to flavor
Spells: Heal 6!*, Improved Invisibility 4*, Increase Reflexes 3D6 1, Stunbolt 6*. 15 more points to season to flavor
* indicates fetish-limited spells (Drain)
! indicates Exclusive spells (Cost)Bonded Foci: Sustaining Focus 1 (Increase Reflexes 3D6)
Weapons: Colt Manhunter with Concealed Holster, 2 Spare Clips, Personalized Grip, and 50 Rounds of Ammo (choose whatever type you prefer)
Armor: Vashon Island Actioneer Line, Form-Fitting Body Armor (Full Body)
Other Equipment: Conjuring Library 6, Conjuring Materials (20), Fetishes, Pocket Secretary, Ford Americar, Low Lifestyle (1 month), DocWagon Contract: Basic (1 year)
Eyeless Blond
May 5 2004, 02:47 AM
Shouldn't Imp. Invis be 5 or 3? It would make the drain much easer at 3, and the drain is the same at 5.
TinkerGnome
May 5 2004, 02:50 AM
I'm not done fiddling with this, but here's a basic outline for a mage/semi-decker:
Priorities: Magic A, Resources B, Attributes C, Race D, Skills E
Race: Dwarf
Attributes Body 3, Quickness 4, Strength 3, Charisma 6, Intelligence 6, Willpower 6
Active Skills: Conjuring 6, Sorcery 6, Computer 6, Stealth 4, Etiquette (street) 2/4), Aura Reading 2
Knowledge Skills: Magic Background 6, Talismongering 6, System familiarities, etc.
Spells: Increased Reflexes +3 1, Improved Invisibility 5, Stealth 3, Stunbolt 6, Levitate 5, Heal (exclusive) 3, Fashion (exclusive) 3
Bonded Foci: Sustaining Foci: F1 (increased reflexes), F1 Improved Invisibility
Gear: 2 foci, Conjuring Library 6 on OMC, MPCP-6 cyberdeck (stock), Summoning materials & refined materials for talismongering into more
Cyberware (all alpha): Datajack, Chipjack, CED 2, Skillwires R3
Skillchips: virtually everything at rating 3 (27 MP)
A Clockwork Lime
May 5 2004, 03:00 AM
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ May 4 2004, 08:47 PM) |
Shouldn't Imp. Invis be 5 or 3? It would make the drain much easer at 3, and the drain is the same at 5. |
Behold the power of Fetish limitations. Resistance TN of Force 4 spell, effective Drain of a Force 3 spell.
Eyeless Blond
May 5 2004, 03:22 AM
Oh, is *that* how it works? I thought it reduced the Drain directly. My bad.
Dashifen
May 5 2004, 03:24 AM
ACL, another question: I didn't think you could limit a spell with both exclusive and fetish limitations. Does your heal spell above work because one is limited for cost and the other for drain? And, when you say cost, I assume you mean the cost for learning a spell?
A Clockwork Lime
May 5 2004, 03:37 AM
Yeah, I used to make that mistake, too, Blond.
You got it, Dashifen. You can only have a single limitations per aspect of the spell and you can't use the same limitation twice, but otherwise you're free to use both. For instance, you can have an Exclusive limitation on the cost and a Fetish limitation on the drain, but you can't have a Fetish for both the cost and the drain or both a Fetish and Exclusive on the drain.
And yes, the Spell Points/Karma cost for the spell is what's reduced.
booklord
May 5 2004, 04:00 AM
Both those mages are perfect examples of why the Increased reflexes spell is broken.
TinkerGnome
May 5 2004, 04:02 AM
QUOTE (booklord) |
Both those mages are perfect examples of why the Increased reflexes spell is broken. |
Yep. Though the only reason I'd sustain a force 1 improved invisibility is to avoid technological sensors and cameras (though it's just as broken in its own way, since a good mage could be impossible for most people to see at force 1... just get more successes than most people can roll dice).
A Clockwork Lime
May 5 2004, 04:08 AM
QUOTE (booklord @ May 4 2004, 10:00 PM) |
Both those mages are perfect examples of why the Increased reflexes spell is broken. |
Yeah. Reaction 5 is so munchy. Surprise Tests will be lost on a regular basis and Quick Draw tests will fail on far more often than they would with even Wired Reflexes 1. Average reaction will be 19; a whole two actions per Turn, all due to an easily-disrupted spell and focus (should an opponent wish to do so).
Damn munchkins.
Jason Farlander
May 5 2004, 04:11 AM
Increased reflexes (Houserule version)
Drain: +1(D)
TN ®
Effect: Every two successes on the sorcery test provide +1d6 to the Target's Initiative, with a maximum bonus equal to half the force of the spell (round down).
TinkerGnome
May 5 2004, 04:33 AM
Fix it how you like, but 5+4d6 initiative is still a lot worse than the 11+3d6 initiative that a relatively average starting sammie gets. A physical adept also easily gets 9+3d6, which is on par with the mage's. The difference is that the mage has to recast his spell frequently and suffer 3D drain. Not to mention the point of karma it takes any time the focus gets destroyed (which can be pretty often). Not to mention the hell that alarm wards can cause for someone with active foci.
Houseruled versions tend to make mages very, very slow because no one can actually achieve +3d6 with them. I prefer it the way it is, really. I also prefer pretty commonplace wards in my games, so it balances out.
cutter07
May 5 2004, 04:56 AM
QUOTE |
Yeah. Reaction 5 is so munchy. Surprise Tests will be lost on a regular basis and Quick Draw tests will fail on far more often than they would with even Wired Reflexes 1. Average reaction will be 19; a whole two actions per Turn, all due to an easily-disrupted spell and focus (should an opponent wish to do so).
Damn munchkins. |
Wow you take sarcasim to a whole new high.
All great start people thanks. Now I need to go read the 3rd edition spells more. Been a long time since Hellfire in 1st editions,..
RedmondLarry
May 5 2004, 06:02 AM
QUOTE (cutter07) |
looking for basic mage build, book builds suck |
Why do you think book builds suck? I may have my own reasons for thinking that. I want to hear what yours are.
Glyph
May 5 2004, 07:01 AM
Here's one I did using only the Basic Rulebook. This is an ork wage mage who got tired of the glass ceiling and decided to take off on his own. Although he is a face type with a good range of spells and contacts, he can still be effective in combat when he needs to. He can command up to 5 elementals at once (and they can be very effective in combat), and if he needs to really pump up a combat spell, he can have an elemental use Aid Sorcery, use one of his Expendable Combat Foci, and empty out his Spell Pool - 23 dice, which is not bad. Plus, his Sustaining Focus gives him a decent initiative.
Here is the breakdown:
A: Magic (Hermetic Mage)
B: Resources
C: Attributes
D: Race (Ork)
E: Skills
Ork Hermetic Mage
Attributes -
Body: 4
Quickness: 4
Strength: 3
Charisma: 5
Intelligence: 5
Willpower: 6
Essence: 6
Magic: 6
Reaction: 4
Initiative: 4 + 1d6 (4d6)
Combat Pool: 7
Spell Pool: 5
Astral Combat Pool: 8
Karma Pool: 1
Active Skills -
Computer: 1
Conjuring: 6
Etiquette: 5
Negotiation: 5
Sorcery: 6
Stealth: 4
Knowledge Skills -
(Languages)
English/Magespeak: 4/6 Read/Write: 2/-
Japanese: 4 Read/Write: 2
(Other Skills)
Corporate Politics: 4
Magical Background: 5
Magical Groups: 4
Parapsychology: 5
Spell Design: 5
Spells - (Note: Purchased 4 extra Spell Points)
Manabolt: 6
Stunball: 6
Mindlink: 1
Heal: 6
Healthy Glow: 1
Increase Reflexes +3: 1
Trid Entertainment (Exclusive): 1(3)
Influence: 6
Bonded Magical Foci -
Sustaining Focus: 1 (Increase Reflexes +3)
Contacts -
Academic Mage (Level 1)
Entertainment Mage (Level 1)
Fixer (Level 2)
Fuchi Decker (Level 1)
NewsNet Snoop (Level 2)
Seattle City Official (Level 2)
Talismonger (Level 2)
Yamatetsu Suit (Level 1)
Lifestyles: 1 High (1 Month) and 1 Low (1 Month).
Credstick Balance: 3d6 x 100 Nuyen.
Gear -
DocWagon Contract: Gold.
Fake ID: Fake Gold Credstick (Rating: 6).
Magic: Conjuring: 6 and Sorcery: 6 Libraries with Data Display (200 Mp), 3 Force: 6 Expendable Combat Foci, Elemental Conjuring Materials (Force: 6 x 10).
Armor/Clothing: Secure Long Coat, Ordinary Clothing (x 7), Fine Clothing (x 2), Tres Chic Clothing (x 2).
Other Gear: Duffel Bag (of 100 Nuyen cost), Medkit, Wrist Phone with Flip-up Screen, Pager, 2 Antidote: 6 Slap Patches, Music Player with Quad Speakers and 12 Music Disks, Telecom (10 Mp) with Disposable Printer.
Cain
May 5 2004, 07:28 AM
QUOTE |
Yeah. Reaction 5 is so munchy. Surprise Tests will be lost on a regular basis and Quick Draw tests will fail on far more often than they would with even Wired Reflexes 1. Average reaction will be 19; a whole two actions per Turn, all due to an easily-disrupted spell and focus (should an opponent wish to do so). |
Well, I wouldn't call it broken or munchy; but it is overpowered in relation to other comparable spells or reflex boosts. 15000 nuyen and one karma for the equivalent of boosted 2. It's not horrid, but it is a bit much.
A Clockwork Lime
May 5 2004, 07:32 AM
It's nice, I won't lie there. But considering some of the other pains magician have to deal with (and while they have a bunch of potential, they can be a burden to play), that's a really minor gain in their favor. Especially since most of them can't afford both the magic and the implants to keep up with the Jones' in the number-of-actions-per-turn scene.
An average of two or three if you have obscenely high Attributes isn't really that bad, especially since it is a fragile and tentative boost to begin with. Characters with Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Accelerators rarely have to worry about having their boosts stripped from them or setting off alarms right in the middle of a job, but magicians with a Sustaining Focus certainly do. Financially, it's about on par with Boosted Reflexes 2, too; the equivalence of about 40,000 nuyen (25,000 for the spell point and 15,000 for the focus).
Don't get me wrong, I understand why people don't much care for it, but I hardly think it's munchy or even broken. About the only character type that doesn't have a convenient reflex boost in some fashion is the aspected Conjurer. Everyone else pretty much has a "must have" reflex boost easily within their means. Cyber-types and/or other high Resources characters snag cyberware, adepts grab the adept power, sorcerers grab the spell and focus, riggers grab the VCR, and deckers get the Response Increase. Aspected conjurers are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head who have to go outside their focus to get any type of boost.
Lilt
May 5 2004, 08:36 AM
[disclaimer] The following character has been tweaked. Perhaps too much.
I advise that if you are opposed to munchkinning, do not look inside this spoiler tag.[/disclaimer]
[ Spoiler ]
First-off: Some ideas I'm basing this character on:
Initiation gives you +1 magic attribute and gives you access to nifty powers like Centering. It should cost you around 12 spell points.
If you want your mage to center, it's best to think about it at chargen as buying skills up-to 6 costs a lot of karma.
If you are initiating at chargen, you can buy a familiar spirit that must cost at-least 9 karma
9 karma can get you a force 2 ally/familiar spirit with a few bells & whistles
Force 2 ally spiriyscan act as force 2 power foci, but 9 karma is less than it costs to bond a force 2 power focus (plus you don't need to pay the cash for the focus
Ally spirits are sumpremely versatile. They can provide spell defense, fight as well as you can in astral combat, and help save a lot of time/money if you are a mage and give them talismongering.
Talismongering makes a mage *far* cheaper. Depending on what your GM lets you get away with, elemental costs can drop as low as 60
per point of force (Compare that to the 1k
per force cost for elemental conjuring materials)
If you have bonus dice (from centering, power foci, or whatever) then casting improved invisibility 1 well eough that almost nobody can see you is a sinch. Slap it in a sustaining focus if you can.
Force 1 Increase Reflexes +3 is the drek. Slap it in a sustaining focus if you can.
Willpower is the drek. If you're using edges and flaws then Bonus Attribute Point (Willpower) is great.
Home ground is also great for mages.
The Trauma Damper is insanely good for mages, and well worth a geas on a magic point by the errated M&M rules.
Let's look at what we've got so far:
A: Magic (Full Mage/Shaman)
B: Resources
C: Attributes
D: Race (Dwarf)
E: Skills
Attributes (24 pts)
B 2 +1 3
Q 3 +0 3
S 1 +2 3
C 6 +0 6
I 6 +0 6
W 6 +1 7 (8 if you get bonus attribute point (willpower))
E 6
M 7(6) (Gesture Geas)
R 4
I +1d6(+4d6)
Pools:
Comb@: 8
Spell: 6 (7 if you take the bonus willpower)
Astral Comb@: 9 (10 if you take the bonus willpower)
Astral Pool: 1 (For being a grade 1 initiate)
Skills (27 pts)
Sorcery 6
Conjuring 6
Centering 6 (linked to a knowledge skill)
Stealth 3
Ettiquette 3
Some Melee/Ranged combat skill 3
Knowledge & Language Skills (30 pts + 9 pts languages)
Talismongering 6 (only really important if you're a mage)
+Whatever
Spell points (25) +12 bought with resources
3 Join Magical Group
9 Initiate with Familiar Ordeal (centering metamagic)
9 Familiar: Force 2 (5 pts), Talismongering 6 (3 pts), Alternate Form (1 pt)
1 Improved Invisibility 1
1 Bond Focus
1 Increase Reflexes +3 1
1 Bond Focus
6 Generic Combat Spell
6 pts for another powerful spell
It shouldn't take long to fill-in the gaps in you spell layout in the game. You can go on rating 1-2 astral quests to speed the process up too
Resources: 400k
300k Spell Points
40k Trauma Damper
15k F1 Sustaining Focus
15k F1 Sustaining Focus
30k for whatever else you want.
He may have to cut back on the spell points if you want him to be a mage.
Well: He's designed, tweaked, twinked, 7W!NKD, and munchkinned. All he needs now is a background.
It might not be exactly what you wanted, but there may be some ideas there you could use.
simonw2000
May 5 2004, 08:40 AM
Take specialisations: Sorcery/Spellcasting 5/7, Conjuring/specialisation of your choice 5/7 and Enchanting/Artificing 5/7. What do you think of that?
Lilt
May 5 2004, 08:53 AM
Usually makes use all of the various specialisations available to them. It's cheaper in the long run just to buy the skill at 6 and buy the specialisation later, especially if you're a dwarf with a willpower higher than 6.
It may be worthwhile for alchemy though. It's actually cheaper to buy the specialisations (of which there are only two) up separately than to buy the base skill up. If you make sure you have a good base rating (4-5) then you can reach very high specialisations quite cheaply.
lacemaker
May 5 2004, 09:55 AM
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
It's nice, I won't lie there. But considering some of the other pains magician have to deal with (and while they have a bunch of potential, they can be a burden to play), that's a really minor gain in their favor. Especially since most of them can't afford both the magic and the implants to keep up with the Jones' in the number-of-actions-per-turn scene.
An average of two or three if you have obscenely high Attributes isn't really that bad, especially since it is a fragile and tentative boost to begin with. Characters with Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Accelerators rarely have to worry about having their boosts stripped from them or setting off alarms right in the middle of a job, but magicians with a Sustaining Focus certainly do. Financially, it's about on par with Boosted Reflexes 2, too; the equivalence of about 40,000 nuyen (25,000 for the spell point and 15,000 for the focus).
Don't get me wrong, I understand why people don't much care for it, but I hardly think it's munchy or even broken. About the only character type that doesn't have a convenient reflex boost in some fashion is the aspected Conjurer. Everyone else pretty much has a "must have" reflex boost easily within their means. Cyber-types and/or other high Resources characters snag cyberware, adepts grab the adept power, sorcerers grab the spell and focus, riggers grab the VCR, and deckers get the Response Increase. Aspected conjurers are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head who have to go outside their focus to get any type of boost. |
The things is, reflex boosts are supposed to be one of the things that mundane characters get access to to make up for not having any of the magical goodies that mages get. If Sammy's are devoting half of their essence to a reflex boost at chargen, and basically cutting off any real form of progression in terms of their 'ware by doing that, then that should represent a major portion of their character concept - they're the fast guy. Just as the mage is the guy who can whistle up spirits, scout ahead in astral form and perform a crazy array of stuff with spells. If you're saying that a mage should be able to start as fast as a low-end sammy for minimal cost then you're eroding one of the key advantages that goes with being mundane.
And I don't buy the claim that mages have so many hassles and disadvatanges that their extreme versatility is cancelled out - I find well-played mages as very overpowered even when I use techniques to discourage reflex boosting spells.
Lilt
May 5 2004, 10:17 AM
QUOTE (lacemaker) |
The things is, reflex boosts are supposed to be one of the things that mundane characters get access to to make up for not having any of the magical goodies that mages get. |
Erm. Supposed to be? Do you have a page reference or anything to back that up at-all? Mundanes get 25-30 build-points for what they don't spend on being magical. Isn't that enough?
Mages spend 25-30bps (or priority A/B) to be magical. The reflex boost isn't exactly '2 spell points and 15k nuyen', it's 'must have spent A/B/30/25 priorities/BPs on being full mage/sorcerer then spend 2 spell points and 15k nuyen to get a reflex boost that is hard to sneak past wards and can be taken-out by almost any astral entity if it's not protected well enough'.
lacemaker
May 5 2004, 11:18 AM
Frankly no, it's not. The difference betwene a magic A/stats B mage and a stats A/tech B samurai doesn't have much to do with the extra stat points at all - they're handy, but they're not the kind of edge that makes a character really effective. The equaliser for a mundane is the fact that they've got 6 essence which they can blow on cyberwear - which is while you'll never see a mundane with 6 essence on any of the "design a character that rocks" threads here (note that I in no way intend to question the validity of such characters, they can be great to play and can be quite effective. But you're never going to design one if you're looking for power).
By going the cyberwear route instead of the magic route, the sammy gets access to some nice stuff, but they are expected, and habitually do, expend the largest portion of their cash and (permanently limited) essence on speed boosts. It is on this basis that I suggest that reflexs are at the core of the samurai's character conception - more than the eyes, razors, smartgun and muscle replacement/armour stuff. The rules require a cybered character to make enormous sacrifices in order to move faster, and they do it.
A mage's edge is all the stuff I listed before - they're not spending their four priorities in order to get access to discount reflex boosting, they're getting plenty of nice stuff without it. Reflex boosting allows sammy's to do something qualatatively different from mages, it's not astral space or summoning a spirit, but it's close to as useful, and artificially sustained reflex boosting magic makes that difference disappear - and yes I'm aware of the disadvantages, much as I am aware of metal detectors and cyberwear damage - it would be like providing an astral projection implant for 0.25 essence.
Anyway, it's late, I'll respond to your no doubt lengthy defence of awakened costs and benefits tomorrow.
BTW, please don't ask "where are you getting this from in the rulebook" again, obviously these are all statements of opinion, as any discussion about whether the existing rules are balanced inherently must be...
Lilt
May 5 2004, 12:00 PM
Firstly: A comparisson between a magic A/stats B mage and a stats A/tech B sammie isn't really accurate. The sammy just puts magic in as low a priority as he can. The mage needs at-least some resources to be effective (and be able to afford even the 15k sustaining focus).
The argument that reflexes are at the core of the samurai's character conception is exactly what I was refuting with my question of where it says that in a book. High initiative is powerful in the same way that any high attribute or skill can be powerful. Sammies spend a lot on them, that allows them to move quickly and shoot guns several times. The fact that a sammie can do that is no reason, however, to forbid a mage from using some of his power (which he has already spent a lot on) to boost his initiative.
Mages get a fair bit to play with, but they're also vulnerable to losing what they have. They can't even use stim patches without risking losing magic, for example. If mages take cyberware, even a datajack, then they lose magic. Mages also have to contend with drain for much of what they do.
Very often mages need spell pool (often most/all of it) to cast spells effectively (and survive the drain), so the high reflexes mage probably won't be as effective as the sammie unless they limit themselves to low drain (hence low damage) spells. The sammie with an Ares Predator, Smartlink, and skill 6 can still deal deadly wounds twice per initiative pass.
booklord
May 5 2004, 01:17 PM
QUOTE |
Increased reflexes (Houserule version)
Drain: +1(D) TN ® Effect: Every two successes on the sorcery test provide +1d6 to the Target's Initiative, with a maximum bonus equal to half the force of the spell (round down).
|
My own house ruled increase Reflexes spell was finalized after a discussion on this board. I'm actually quite more lenient than some in that discussion.
Drain:+1(D)
TN:6
Effect:Every success on the sorcery test provides +1d6 to the Target's Initiative, with a maximum bonus equal to the force of the spell.
QUOTE |
Yeah. Reaction 5 is so munchy. Surprise Tests will be lost on a regular basis and Quick Draw tests will fail on far more often than they would with even Wired Reflexes 1. Average reaction will be 19; a whole two actions per Turn, all due to an easily-disrupted spell and focus (should an opponent wish to do so). |
If there is one area of shadowrun, I absolutely abhor it is the surprise test. It makes the advantage that Street Samurai get in Initiative look minor. The way the rules read a street samurai could walk into an ambush and by sheer number of dice rolled completely surprise everyone of the ambushers. My current houserule for this is simple. Roll the surprise test as normal. If a character fails to get any successes then the character is surprised and can't do anything that combat turn. Otherwise the character is not surprised.
QUOTE |
Yep. Though the only reason I'd sustain a force 1 improved invisibility is to avoid technological sensors and cameras (though it's just as broken in its own way, since a good mage could be impossible for most people to see at force 1... just get more successes than most people can roll dice). |
In addition I have a separate rule designed to limit character's from achieving power spell effects using Force 1 spells. This would be particularly affective in stopping the Improved Invisibility from simply overloading the spell with sucesses so your normal intelligence guy couldn't resist.
HOUSE RULE: On maximum successes for a spell.
No spell after being cast can have more than net success ( after factoring spell defense and the target's resistance roll ) then the Force of the spell.
Example #1: A sleep bolt at Force 1 is cast at a rent-a-cop security guard. The mage scores 10 successes. However a nearby mage senses the spell and uses spell defense to protect the guard but only gets 5 successes. The guard with his WP of 2 scores 2 successes. That leaves the spell with 3 successes, but because the spell is only Force 1 that is reduced to 1 success.
In the case of Improved Invisibility that means that at Force 1 the spell could only have 1 success.
Abstruse
May 5 2004, 01:22 PM
Hey, I've made very good mundane characters with no cyber! Very much in the face/detective area with lots of contacts and social skills, but they're insane and sometimes indespensible when doing legwork or trying to figure out a mystery. Plus, sometimes it's fun to roleplay the "normal guy" who can't blow up cars with a thought and gesture or the guy who sweats hydrolic fluid...
The Abstruse One
A Clockwork Lime
May 5 2004, 02:27 PM
QUOTE |
Drain:+1(D) TN:6 Effect:Every success on the sorcery test provides +1d6 to the Target's Initiative, with a maximum bonus equal to the force of the spell. |
<jaw hits the floor>
Now that's a munchy spell.
booklord
May 5 2004, 03:09 PM
QUOTE |
Drain:+1(D) TN:6 Effect:Every success on the sorcery test provides +1d6 to the Target's Initiative, with a maximum bonus equal to the force of the spell.
<jaw hits the floor>
Now that's a munchy spell. |
Less Munchy then the Increased Reflexes +3 spell currently out there. I wanted to take the edge off. Not make it incredibly expensive.
Did I miss anything? I didn't have the spell in front of me and typed it from memory.
This of course cannot be combined with any other form of iniative dice enhancement. Note once you get to about 4 or 5 dice of initiave enhancement you become a danger to everyone around you friend or foe. At 6 or above you are entering "Beavis on coffee territory". In many ways Increased Reflexes is a highly dangerous spell since you get the reflexes but not the reaction to back it up.
A Clockwork Lime
May 5 2004, 03:15 PM
To each their own.
Basically all you did was increase the cost of getting +3D6 dice by 30,000 nuyen and 2 Spell Points (thus also making the spell and the focus safer and less likely to be disrupted), while simultaneously allowing a munchkin-type player (who's the only one you should have been concerned about to begin with) to easily get a +6D6 boost which is far and above anything anyone else in the game can get.
booklord
May 5 2004, 03:32 PM
Like I said I merely wanted to take the edge off. As for getting +6d6 initiative.....
That would require 6 successes with a target number of 6. ( Not easy ) Also high reflexes and a low reaction is a recipe for disaster. There's a reason why cyber-sams get their reflexes and reaction raised at the same time. It has to do with accidental shootings.
Also increasing the force makes it harder for the magician to hide the focus through masking.
A Clockwork Lime
May 5 2004, 03:37 PM
It doesn't have to be easy. Once bonded, a sustaining focus can be activated and deactivated with little problem. With a Drain Code of only +4D and a decent Willpower (6), it would only take a few days or weeks if really unlucky to get enough successes to do it on one of your tests through multiple castings... and since it's something you can do during your downtime while bored out of your skull, it's not an issue.
And, voila, you also simultaneously made it that much harder to disrupt. A Force 6 spell in a Force 6 Sustaining Focus is a bitch to shutdown, especially if it's on the magician's person and he has spell defense (or worse, Shielding) going on full.
So now not only do you have a magician who can potentially even make even Wired 3 look like child's play, but it's extremely improbable to get rid of it, too, if it poses a problem. And if you find a mere +3D6 to be a problem, you're definitely going to find +6D6 one.
Eyeless Blond
May 5 2004, 03:59 PM
HOUSE RULE: On maximum successes for a spell.
No spell after being cast can have more than net success ( after factoring spell defense and the target's resistance roll ) then the Force of the spell.
heh, I hope you're not counting the spells that only give you one point for every two successes, like Analyze Device or Increase Attribute.
Not that I think many/most of those spells are in any way fair, but this house rule makes them even more useless.
RedmondLarry
May 5 2004, 04:00 PM
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
Once bonded, a sustaining focus can be activated and deactivated with little problem. With a Drain Code of only +4D and a decent Willpower (6), it would only take a few days or weeks if really unlucky to get enough successes to do it on one of your tests through multiple castings... and since it's something you can do during your downtime while bored out of your skull, it's not an issue. |
Lime, I think you're missing something. Yes, a sustaining focus can easily be activated. All the owner has to do is recast the spell.
The owner really won't want to turn off the focus to go through the ward at the entrance and then recast the proposed Force 6 Incr. Reflexes spell on the other side. Not when a Force 6 spell has a 7D drain code!
My 2 cents worth: don't put a +6D6 initiative spell into the game.
A Clockwork Lime
May 5 2004, 04:12 PM
True, true, but it doesn't take much to mask a Force 6 sustaining focus, either. At grade 1 he just has to roll a single six on 2D6 to mask it, and it goes up by +2 dice for every grade thereafter. At that point he can just make a normal synchronization test to get through a ward, which is a similar test.
So if he can synchronize with a Force 6 ward to begin with, he can easily hide his Force 6 focus, too.
And just as a side note, his Force 6 spell, as written above, only has a Drain Code of 4D... 3D with a fetish limitation. Using nothing but Willpower 6, that's easily, what, four successes, or a Moderate drain. Add Spell Pool 2-4 to it (assuming a Trauma Damper since we're concerned about munchkins here) and it's completely ignored.
Herald of Verjigorm
May 5 2004, 04:19 PM
Now consider the consequences of that spell as a tattoo...
Cain
May 5 2004, 09:40 PM
And now you know why I've never tried houseruling this spell...
Look, I think the spell is overpowered. Not horrible, not munchkin, but it's an awful lot of bang for your buck. And it's harder to restrict than other overpowered items, like Great Dragon ATGMs.
My best contemplation is that we require two successes per extra die, with a max number of successes equal to the force. So, a force-6 spell can only add 3 dice. I also heavily restrict the spell formula. If someone's paying for 3 dice with a force-6 focus, I don't have as much of a problem with it. Oh, and I apply the cyber-initiative-penalty.
But even that has issues. Some idiot is going to try to create a force-10 variant of this. Which I can deal with in game; but there's still issues. Mages tend to roll over nonmages; initiative is one of the ways in which this is balanced. I haven't really found any method I find to be a satisfactory replacement.
lacemaker
May 6 2004, 01:02 AM
QUOTE (Lilt) |
Firstly: A comparisson between a magic A/stats B mage and a stats A/tech B sammie isn't really accurate. The sammy just puts magic in as low a priority as he can. The mage needs at-least some resources to be effective (and be able to afford even the 15k sustaining focus).
The argument that reflexes are at the core of the samurai's character conception is exactly what I was refuting with my question of where it says that in a book. High initiative is powerful in the same way that any high attribute or skill can be powerful. Sammies spend a lot on them, that allows them to move quickly and shoot guns several times. The fact that a sammie can do that is no reason, however, to forbid a mage from using some of his power (which he has already spent a lot on) to boost his initiative.
Mages get a fair bit to play with, but they're also vulnerable to losing what they have. They can't even use stim patches without risking losing magic, for example. If mages take cyberware, even a datajack, then they lose magic. Mages also have to contend with drain for much of what they do.
Very often mages need spell pool (often most/all of it) to cast spells effectively (and survive the drain), so the high reflexes mage probably won't be as effective as the sammie unless they limit themselves to low drain (hence low damage) spells. The sammie with an Ares Predator, Smartlink, and skill 6 can still deal deadly wounds twice per initiative pass. |
Or maybe the mage can use the 15k from his first paycheck to supercharge his character. That's certainly what my players always try when using priorities.
More generally, my concern is rooted in a belief, which I appear to share with Cain, that mages gain a great deal of influence over all aspect of the game for their four priorities, certainly more than any reasonable number of skill or attribute points can compensate for.
While I agree that a non-magical, non-cybered character can be very interesting to play, if we're talking about power then we are comparing the magical route to the cyber route - and it is my belief that, in order to represent any kind of balanced choice cyber has to offer more than just a few bonus attribute points in order to offset spirits, astral projection, enchanting, ritual magic and spellcasting.
The rules and published archetypes appear to acknowledge that a reflex boost isn't just part of a suite of generic attribute boosters, because they price it, in terms of essence and nuyen cost, far above the top levels of other boosts, and yet it remains extremely popular, and indeed nearly ubiquitous. So a choice to base your character around cyber practically means a choice to base your character around reflex boosts and a bunch of other stuff. Characters are asked to, and do, permanently focus their "edge" on being faster than the average guy. This ought to mean something.
Now, what about mages? I'll repeat that this is to some extent predicated on a belief that they get a lot for their four priorities, and that the costs aren't that great. Not being able to use cyber is not a disadvantage - it is an aspect of the choice to go with magic rather than cyber. And with the new geas rules even that choice is pretty non binding. Not being able to use stim patches isn't much of an issue either - it is an aspect of the drain rules. Most mundane characters in my game go half a dozen runs without ever using one, the reason mages are banned is becuase they have a special reason to want them. This too is an aspect of the magic rules. A mage is not, as in most other systems, banned from using the same heavy weapons and heavy armor that other characters use, except where those weapons or portections have a cyber aspect. Finally, combat pool plays much the same role as spell pool, and a mage can use all their combat pool to dodge incoming attacks. And even a low drain spell packs more punch than the type of hardware a sammy will normally have on their person.
The key thing a sammy can do that a mage can not (or should not) be able to, the key qualatative difference in how they play, as opposed to extra power for their unarmed attacks, improved laser sights and some extra armor, is to act earlier and more often than the mage. A force one reflex boost is a dirt cheap trick that makes that difference dissappear - and the fact that anyone designing a tweaked mage thinks it is such a no brainer, including yourself, just underlines how underpriced it is. This basically turns a normally kitted out sammy into the guy with a few extra attribute points and who doesn't have to carry a knife or goggles because he got them implanted, and that doesn't come close to making cyber a viable alternative edge.
Glyph
May 6 2004, 03:45 AM
I think the sustaining focus: 1/ Increased Reflexes + 3 combo gives a lot of bang for the buck - but so does a Smartlink. 2,500
for a -2 to Target Numbers? But both would take away a lot from the respective characters if they were to be tweaked to make them less useful or more difficult to acquire. Considering that the bonus is not that extreme, and that the technique has a lot of vulnerabilities, I don't think it is too unbalancing.
Lilt
May 6 2004, 10:52 AM
@lacemaker
It strikes me that in your games there have been far too few obstacles thrown at mages. By MitS many corp office buildings have a background count. Vision penalties dog mages attempting to cast spells, and astral spirits can beat the cr@p out of percieving mages.
QUOTE |
[I]t is my belief that, in order to represent any kind of balanced choice cyber has to offer more than just a few bonus attribute points in order to offset spirits, astral projection, enchanting, ritual magic and spellcasting. |
It is your belief, but I think most of us agree that cyber gives far more than just a few attribute points. Smartlinks are a good start, so too are skillwires, senseware, cyberweapons, Enhanced Artwinkulation, Mnemonic Enhancers, trauma dampers, Tailored Pheramones, Cerebral Boosters, the Synaptic Accelerator/Boosted reflexes combo, Trauma dampeners, Platet factories, and Nanoware biomonitors.
Also: If the increased reflexes is so powerful when considered with the other abilities, then why do you consider it so much worse than any of the other abilities? Why don't you declare mannabolt broken because it can be used to kill people? Or why don't I declare firearms to be broken because they don't require people to make drain tests? Your argument seems to be based purely on your oppinion of how things should work rather than facts.
Reflex boosts are quite expencive, yes. Compare it to something like muscle replacement though and it dosen't seem that bad. Low-end reflex boosts such-as Boosted 1 and Synaptic Accelerator 1 are affordable and give some good boosts. If someone's character concept is 'fast guy', which strikes me as a fairly poor character concept in the first place, then why dosen't he buy the dammn gear to do it in the first place? Synaptic 2 and Boosted 3 gets you moving fast. If you tack-on enhanced articulation, reaction enhancer 6, muscle toner 4, and a cerebral booster 2 than that sammie is dammn fast. Slap that on an elf with bonus attribute point quickness and you have something like 18+5D6 initiative.
I'd also refute your claim that low drain spells pack the same punch as gear that a sammy can carry on his person, but we've yet to determine exactly what a low drain spell is. If you'd like to do that then I'm pretty sure I could explain how sammies could carry gear on their persons to match or exceed the abilities of the spell.
I know that mages are not forbidden from using heavy weapons. That is part of, and is partially the beauty of, the shadowrun game and world. Classes are what D&D does, and if you actually wanted them then I'm sure you'd be discussing the merits of the haste spell on some D&D board right now.
As another interesting point: Did you know that any character, even a sammy can get +3d6 initiative using the increase reflexes +3 method? For only 16k a complete mundane can buy an expendable anchoring focus with Increase Reflexes +3 cast in it.
ondali
May 6 2004, 01:36 PM
as for punch:
last run the sammy was shooting adversaries left and right,
the mage was throwing fireballs left and right,
but the most damage was done with normal hand grenades and grenade launchers.
this was not even an indoor complex, just a couple of guards comming out of their buildings, so still standing close to a wall.
My take is such that when keeping in mind how much of a starting character's point are devoted to become a decent spell slinger, the problems of either sustaining the spell or keeping it in a sustaining focus, and the fact that they're still likely to be surprised, giving mages an easy route to +3D6 initative is not the end of the world.
But if mages are forced to go on 4 +1D6 in a group with high initative friends two things happen.
The first is combat become extremely boring for the player of the mage. In a 4 vs 4 situation, it might take ten minutes between the mages actions if the mage isn't projecting.
Second thing is, the player will often be rolling up a new character if the opposition uses the "geek the mage first" technique.
I can live with it because without it, playing a mage in combat is the furthest thing from fun.
Jason Farlander
May 6 2004, 04:04 PM
QUOTE (Cain) |
But even that has issues. Some idiot is going to try to create a force-10 variant of this. Which I can deal with in game; but there's still issues. Mages tend to roll over nonmages; initiative is one of the ways in which this is balanced. I haven't really found any method I find to be a satisfactory replacement. |
Perhaps. You can, however, control this just as easily as the GD ATGM you mentioned. First, the TN to learn that spell is 20 - not exactly something to sneeze at. Additionally, it requires a rating 10 sorcery library or shamanic lodge - again, not anything I've found to be particularly common among shadowrunners, and, as gear, things that are easy to control access to. If the inherent difficulty in learning the spell isnt sufficient for you, simply state that there are no force 10 spells on the market.
That idiot who still wants the spell *could* attempt to design it himself, but doing so would require a spell design skill of 10 as well as the rating 10 library or lodge. If youre getting to the point in a game where characters have skill values of 10+, I dont really see how your concern about game balance applies.
For the entirety of every game I've run or participated in, the two successes per die/max successes = force version of the spell works beautifully, and is certainly more balanced against mundane characters than the current incarnation of the spell.
tisoz
May 11 2004, 10:58 AM
Actually, it is (2*F) + drain modifiers - magic attribute. So in this example, 20+3-6 (for starting mage) = TN17. By first learning (or Knowing) the spell at Force 1, they can increase the Forceof a spell and get a -2 modifier to the TN and divide the base time in half. Down to TN 15 for the example.
Also, using a library or lodge rated greater than spell design skill grants an extra die for every 2 point difference. And using the gear upgrade cost and time a shaman could raise the rating of his lodge about every day of downtime for very low cost. The last shaman had a rating 50 lodge and quit improving it so the GM wouldn't kill him. 50-10=40 20 extra dice to learn a F10 spell. Never tried learning a F10, but learned the F7 on first attempt every time.
Universities and magic groups allow access for mages to use their libraries, the costs are listed, so they don't need to feel totally left out, plus they can get Aid Study help from elemental.
Lilt
May 11 2004, 11:32 AM
QUOTE (tisoz) |
50-10=40 20 extra dice to learn a F10 spell. Never tried learning a F10, but learned the F7 on first attempt every time. |
Erm... Those rules are for designing the spell, not learning it which would still take a F*2 test using sorcery.
tisoz
May 12 2004, 09:13 PM
QUOTE (Lilt) |
QUOTE (tisoz) | 50-10=40 20 extra dice to learn a F10 spell. Never tried learning a F10, but learned the F7 on first attempt every time. |
Erm... Those rules are for designing the spell, not learning it which would still take a F*2 test using sorcery.
|
Erm...
I was addressing the post above mine, specifically:
QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
Perhaps. You can, however, control this just as easily as the GD ATGM you mentioned. <snip> it requires a rating 10 sorcery library or shamanic lodge - again, not anything I've found to be particularly common among shadowrunners, and, as gear, things that are easy to control access to. If the inherent difficulty in learning the spell isnt sufficient for you, simply state that there are no force 10 spells on the market.
That idiot who still wants the spell *could* attempt to design it himself, but doing so would require a spell design skill of 10 as well as the rating 10 library or lodge. If youre getting to the point in a game where characters have skill values of 10+, I dont really see how your concern about game balance applies. |
Lilt
May 13 2004, 08:33 AM
Yes, but you said:
QUOTE (tisoz) |
50-10=40 20 extra dice to learn a F10 spell. |
Emphasis mine. Replace that word with design and I'll be perfectly happy
gknoy
May 13 2004, 10:51 PM
QUOTE (lacemaker) |
... it would be like providing an astral projection implant for 0.25 essence. |
You know . . .
I can see some seriously twisted bioware experiment that took matter from a projecting-capable mage, and implanted it into someone else . . . maybe an adept who already had perception, or something ...
That would probably screw game balance, but ... at the same time . . . if not, it still sounds cool as a onetime plot hook, or something.
Probably the Azzies that would do it . . .
gknoy
May 13 2004, 10:59 PM
QUOTE (booklord) |
Also high reflexes and a low reaction is a recipe for disaster. There's a reason why cyber-sams get their reflexes and reaction raised at the same time. It has to do with accidental shootings. |
I don't recall seeing anything in Canon relating the number of initiative dice to the Reaction [calculated] attribute, reflecting in any way, shape, or form on accidental aggressive acts.
The only thing related to that that I've seen is the Wired Reflexes' notable flaw of causing you to be jumpy, hence the need for a reaction trigger. Most people interpret this to mean that the Wired character is apt to snap-shot the kindergartener that says "Boo" if his reflexes are On.
I don't believe it indicates anywhere that other sources of reflex enhancement (Boosted, Adept power, magical spell) cause similar jumpiness. In fact, because it doesn't say so, I interpret this to mean that they do NOT. I would imagine that the mage's spell affects him in much the same way as the adept's power. (Tho I haven't read the magic chapter in a while, so I couldbe wrong on the spell effect.)
- gtk
Eyeless Blond
May 13 2004, 11:40 PM
It's not in the magic chapter; it's in Man and Machine. Pg. 45, under Effects of Increased Reflexes. Personally I'd have made it a Reaction test, but apparently it's Perception, which means that mages are generally better off than sammies, although they have a TN 8 instead of a TN 7.