 looking for a basic mage build, book builds suck, want a semi munchy one |
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 May 5 2004, 01:17 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583  |
My own house ruled increase Reflexes spell was finalized after a discussion on this board. I'm actually quite more lenient than some in that discussion. Drain:+1(D) TN:6 Effect:Every success on the sorcery test provides +1d6 to the Target's Initiative, with a maximum bonus equal to the force of the spell.
If there is one area of shadowrun, I absolutely abhor it is the surprise test. It makes the advantage that Street Samurai get in Initiative look minor. The way the rules read a street samurai could walk into an ambush and by sheer number of dice rolled completely surprise everyone of the ambushers. My current houserule for this is simple. Roll the surprise test as normal. If a character fails to get any successes then the character is surprised and can't do anything that combat turn. Otherwise the character is not surprised.
In addition I have a separate rule designed to limit character's from achieving power spell effects using Force 1 spells. This would be particularly affective in stopping the Improved Invisibility from simply overloading the spell with sucesses so your normal intelligence guy couldn't resist. HOUSE RULE: On maximum successes for a spell. No spell after being cast can have more than net success ( after factoring spell defense and the target's resistance roll ) then the Force of the spell. Example #1: A sleep bolt at Force 1 is cast at a rent-a-cop security guard. The mage scores 10 successes. However a nearby mage senses the spell and uses spell defense to protect the guard but only gets 5 successes. The guard with his WP of 2 scores 2 successes. That leaves the spell with 3 successes, but because the spell is only Force 1 that is reduced to 1 success. In the case of Improved Invisibility that means that at Force 1 the spell could only have 1 success. |
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May 5 2004, 01:22 PM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
Hey, I've made very good mundane characters with no cyber! Very much in the face/detective area with lots of contacts and social skills, but they're insane and sometimes indespensible when doing legwork or trying to figure out a mystery. Plus, sometimes it's fun to roleplay the "normal guy" who can't blow up cars with a thought and gesture or the guy who sweats hydrolic fluid...
The Abstruse One |
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May 5 2004, 02:27 PM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
<jaw hits the floor> Now that's a munchy spell. |
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May 5 2004, 03:09 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Less Munchy then the Increased Reflexes +3 spell currently out there. I wanted to take the edge off. Not make it incredibly expensive. Did I miss anything? I didn't have the spell in front of me and typed it from memory. This of course cannot be combined with any other form of iniative dice enhancement. Note once you get to about 4 or 5 dice of initiave enhancement you become a danger to everyone around you friend or foe. At 6 or above you are entering "Beavis on coffee territory". In many ways Increased Reflexes is a highly dangerous spell since you get the reflexes but not the reaction to back it up. |
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May 5 2004, 03:15 PM
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#30
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
To each their own.
Basically all you did was increase the cost of getting +3D6 dice by 30,000 nuyen and 2 Spell Points (thus also making the spell and the focus safer and less likely to be disrupted), while simultaneously allowing a munchkin-type player (who's the only one you should have been concerned about to begin with) to easily get a +6D6 boost which is far and above anything anyone else in the game can get. |
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May 5 2004, 03:32 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Like I said I merely wanted to take the edge off. As for getting +6d6 initiative.....
That would require 6 successes with a target number of 6. ( Not easy ) Also high reflexes and a low reaction is a recipe for disaster. There's a reason why cyber-sams get their reflexes and reaction raised at the same time. It has to do with accidental shootings. Also increasing the force makes it harder for the magician to hide the focus through masking. |
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May 5 2004, 03:37 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
It doesn't have to be easy. Once bonded, a sustaining focus can be activated and deactivated with little problem. With a Drain Code of only +4D and a decent Willpower (6), it would only take a few days or weeks if really unlucky to get enough successes to do it on one of your tests through multiple castings... and since it's something you can do during your downtime while bored out of your skull, it's not an issue.
And, voila, you also simultaneously made it that much harder to disrupt. A Force 6 spell in a Force 6 Sustaining Focus is a bitch to shutdown, especially if it's on the magician's person and he has spell defense (or worse, Shielding) going on full. So now not only do you have a magician who can potentially even make even Wired 3 look like child's play, but it's extremely improbable to get rid of it, too, if it poses a problem. And if you find a mere +3D6 to be a problem, you're definitely going to find +6D6 one. |
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May 5 2004, 03:59 PM
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#33
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
HOUSE RULE: On maximum successes for a spell.
No spell after being cast can have more than net success ( after factoring spell defense and the target's resistance roll ) then the Force of the spell. heh, I hope you're not counting the spells that only give you one point for every two successes, like Analyze Device or Increase Attribute. :) Not that I think many/most of those spells are in any way fair, but this house rule makes them even more useless. |
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May 5 2004, 04:00 PM
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#34
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
Lime, I think you're missing something. Yes, a sustaining focus can easily be activated. All the owner has to do is recast the spell. The owner really won't want to turn off the focus to go through the ward at the entrance and then recast the proposed Force 6 Incr. Reflexes spell on the other side. Not when a Force 6 spell has a 7D drain code! My 2 cents worth: don't put a +6D6 initiative spell into the game. |
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May 5 2004, 04:12 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
True, true, but it doesn't take much to mask a Force 6 sustaining focus, either. At grade 1 he just has to roll a single six on 2D6 to mask it, and it goes up by +2 dice for every grade thereafter. At that point he can just make a normal synchronization test to get through a ward, which is a similar test.
So if he can synchronize with a Force 6 ward to begin with, he can easily hide his Force 6 focus, too. And just as a side note, his Force 6 spell, as written above, only has a Drain Code of 4D... 3D with a fetish limitation. Using nothing but Willpower 6, that's easily, what, four successes, or a Moderate drain. Add Spell Pool 2-4 to it (assuming a Trauma Damper since we're concerned about munchkins here) and it's completely ignored. |
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May 5 2004, 04:19 PM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Now consider the consequences of that spell as a tattoo...
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May 5 2004, 09:40 PM
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#37
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
And now you know why I've never tried houseruling this spell...
Look, I think the spell is overpowered. Not horrible, not munchkin, but it's an awful lot of bang for your buck. And it's harder to restrict than other overpowered items, like Great Dragon ATGMs. My best contemplation is that we require two successes per extra die, with a max number of successes equal to the force. So, a force-6 spell can only add 3 dice. I also heavily restrict the spell formula. If someone's paying for 3 dice with a force-6 focus, I don't have as much of a problem with it. Oh, and I apply the cyber-initiative-penalty. But even that has issues. Some idiot is going to try to create a force-10 variant of this. Which I can deal with in game; but there's still issues. Mages tend to roll over nonmages; initiative is one of the ways in which this is balanced. I haven't really found any method I find to be a satisfactory replacement. |
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May 6 2004, 01:02 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,836 |
Or maybe the mage can use the 15k from his first paycheck to supercharge his character. That's certainly what my players always try when using priorities. More generally, my concern is rooted in a belief, which I appear to share with Cain, that mages gain a great deal of influence over all aspect of the game for their four priorities, certainly more than any reasonable number of skill or attribute points can compensate for. While I agree that a non-magical, non-cybered character can be very interesting to play, if we're talking about power then we are comparing the magical route to the cyber route - and it is my belief that, in order to represent any kind of balanced choice cyber has to offer more than just a few bonus attribute points in order to offset spirits, astral projection, enchanting, ritual magic and spellcasting. The rules and published archetypes appear to acknowledge that a reflex boost isn't just part of a suite of generic attribute boosters, because they price it, in terms of essence and nuyen cost, far above the top levels of other boosts, and yet it remains extremely popular, and indeed nearly ubiquitous. So a choice to base your character around cyber practically means a choice to base your character around reflex boosts and a bunch of other stuff. Characters are asked to, and do, permanently focus their "edge" on being faster than the average guy. This ought to mean something. Now, what about mages? I'll repeat that this is to some extent predicated on a belief that they get a lot for their four priorities, and that the costs aren't that great. Not being able to use cyber is not a disadvantage - it is an aspect of the choice to go with magic rather than cyber. And with the new geas rules even that choice is pretty non binding. Not being able to use stim patches isn't much of an issue either - it is an aspect of the drain rules. Most mundane characters in my game go half a dozen runs without ever using one, the reason mages are banned is becuase they have a special reason to want them. This too is an aspect of the magic rules. A mage is not, as in most other systems, banned from using the same heavy weapons and heavy armor that other characters use, except where those weapons or portections have a cyber aspect. Finally, combat pool plays much the same role as spell pool, and a mage can use all their combat pool to dodge incoming attacks. And even a low drain spell packs more punch than the type of hardware a sammy will normally have on their person. The key thing a sammy can do that a mage can not (or should not) be able to, the key qualatative difference in how they play, as opposed to extra power for their unarmed attacks, improved laser sights and some extra armor, is to act earlier and more often than the mage. A force one reflex boost is a dirt cheap trick that makes that difference dissappear - and the fact that anyone designing a tweaked mage thinks it is such a no brainer, including yourself, just underlines how underpriced it is. This basically turns a normally kitted out sammy into the guy with a few extra attribute points and who doesn't have to carry a knife or goggles because he got them implanted, and that doesn't come close to making cyber a viable alternative edge. |
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May 6 2004, 03:45 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I think the sustaining focus: 1/ Increased Reflexes + 3 combo gives a lot of bang for the buck - but so does a Smartlink. 2,500 :nuyen: for a -2 to Target Numbers? But both would take away a lot from the respective characters if they were to be tweaked to make them less useful or more difficult to acquire. Considering that the bonus is not that extreme, and that the technique has a lot of vulnerabilities, I don't think it is too unbalancing.
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May 6 2004, 10:52 AM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
@lacemaker It strikes me that in your games there have been far too few obstacles thrown at mages. By MitS many corp office buildings have a background count. Vision penalties dog mages attempting to cast spells, and astral spirits can beat the cr@p out of percieving mages.
It is your belief, but I think most of us agree that cyber gives far more than just a few attribute points. Smartlinks are a good start, so too are skillwires, senseware, cyberweapons, Enhanced Artwinkulation, Mnemonic Enhancers, trauma dampers, Tailored Pheramones, Cerebral Boosters, the Synaptic Accelerator/Boosted reflexes combo, Trauma dampeners, Platet factories, and Nanoware biomonitors. Also: If the increased reflexes is so powerful when considered with the other abilities, then why do you consider it so much worse than any of the other abilities? Why don't you declare mannabolt broken because it can be used to kill people? Or why don't I declare firearms to be broken because they don't require people to make drain tests? Your argument seems to be based purely on your oppinion of how things should work rather than facts. Reflex boosts are quite expencive, yes. Compare it to something like muscle replacement though and it dosen't seem that bad. Low-end reflex boosts such-as Boosted 1 and Synaptic Accelerator 1 are affordable and give some good boosts. If someone's character concept is 'fast guy', which strikes me as a fairly poor character concept in the first place, then why dosen't he buy the dammn gear to do it in the first place? Synaptic 2 and Boosted 3 gets you moving fast. If you tack-on enhanced articulation, reaction enhancer 6, muscle toner 4, and a cerebral booster 2 than that sammie is dammn fast. Slap that on an elf with bonus attribute point quickness and you have something like 18+5D6 initiative. I'd also refute your claim that low drain spells pack the same punch as gear that a sammy can carry on his person, but we've yet to determine exactly what a low drain spell is. If you'd like to do that then I'm pretty sure I could explain how sammies could carry gear on their persons to match or exceed the abilities of the spell. I know that mages are not forbidden from using heavy weapons. That is part of, and is partially the beauty of, the shadowrun game and world. Classes are what D&D does, and if you actually wanted them then I'm sure you'd be discussing the merits of the haste spell on some D&D board right now. As another interesting point: Did you know that any character, even a sammy can get +3d6 initiative using the increase reflexes +3 method? For only 16k a complete mundane can buy an expendable anchoring focus with Increase Reflexes +3 cast in it. |
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May 6 2004, 01:36 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 10-February 04 From: Hengelo Netherlands Member No.: 6,067 |
as for punch:
last run the sammy was shooting adversaries left and right, the mage was throwing fireballs left and right, but the most damage was done with normal hand grenades and grenade launchers. this was not even an indoor complex, just a couple of guards comming out of their buildings, so still standing close to a wall. |
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May 6 2004, 02:53 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
My take is such that when keeping in mind how much of a starting character's point are devoted to become a decent spell slinger, the problems of either sustaining the spell or keeping it in a sustaining focus, and the fact that they're still likely to be surprised, giving mages an easy route to +3D6 initative is not the end of the world.
But if mages are forced to go on 4 +1D6 in a group with high initative friends two things happen. The first is combat become extremely boring for the player of the mage. In a 4 vs 4 situation, it might take ten minutes between the mages actions if the mage isn't projecting. Second thing is, the player will often be rolling up a new character if the opposition uses the "geek the mage first" technique. I can live with it because without it, playing a mage in combat is the furthest thing from fun. |
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May 6 2004, 04:04 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Perhaps. You can, however, control this just as easily as the GD ATGM you mentioned. First, the TN to learn that spell is 20 - not exactly something to sneeze at. Additionally, it requires a rating 10 sorcery library or shamanic lodge - again, not anything I've found to be particularly common among shadowrunners, and, as gear, things that are easy to control access to. If the inherent difficulty in learning the spell isnt sufficient for you, simply state that there are no force 10 spells on the market. That idiot who still wants the spell *could* attempt to design it himself, but doing so would require a spell design skill of 10 as well as the rating 10 library or lodge. If youre getting to the point in a game where characters have skill values of 10+, I dont really see how your concern about game balance applies. For the entirety of every game I've run or participated in, the two successes per die/max successes = force version of the spell works beautifully, and is certainly more balanced against mundane characters than the current incarnation of the spell. |
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May 11 2004, 10:58 AM
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#44
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Actually, it is (2*F) + drain modifiers - magic attribute. So in this example, 20+3-6 (for starting mage) = TN17. By first learning (or Knowing) the spell at Force 1, they can increase the Forceof a spell and get a -2 modifier to the TN and divide the base time in half. Down to TN 15 for the example.
Also, using a library or lodge rated greater than spell design skill grants an extra die for every 2 point difference. And using the gear upgrade cost and time a shaman could raise the rating of his lodge about every day of downtime for very low cost. The last shaman had a rating 50 lodge and quit improving it so the GM wouldn't kill him. 50-10=40 20 extra dice to learn a F10 spell. Never tried learning a F10, but learned the F7 on first attempt every time. Universities and magic groups allow access for mages to use their libraries, the costs are listed, so they don't need to feel totally left out, plus they can get Aid Study help from elemental. |
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May 11 2004, 11:32 AM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Erm... Those rules are for designing the spell, not learning it which would still take a F*2 test using sorcery. |
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May 12 2004, 09:13 PM
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#46
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Erm... I was addressing the post above mine, specifically:
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May 13 2004, 08:33 AM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Yes, but you said:
Emphasis mine. Replace that word with design and I'll be perfectly happy :spin: |
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May 13 2004, 10:51 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,835 |
You know . . . I can see some seriously twisted bioware experiment that took matter from a projecting-capable mage, and implanted it into someone else . . . maybe an adept who already had perception, or something ... That would probably screw game balance, but ... at the same time . . . if not, it still sounds cool as a onetime plot hook, or something. Probably the Azzies that would do it . . . |
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May 13 2004, 10:59 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,835 |
I don't recall seeing anything in Canon relating the number of initiative dice to the Reaction [calculated] attribute, reflecting in any way, shape, or form on accidental aggressive acts. The only thing related to that that I've seen is the Wired Reflexes' notable flaw of causing you to be jumpy, hence the need for a reaction trigger. Most people interpret this to mean that the Wired character is apt to snap-shot the kindergartener that says "Boo" if his reflexes are On. I don't believe it indicates anywhere that other sources of reflex enhancement (Boosted, Adept power, magical spell) cause similar jumpiness. In fact, because it doesn't say so, I interpret this to mean that they do NOT. I would imagine that the mage's spell affects him in much the same way as the adept's power. (Tho I haven't read the magic chapter in a while, so I couldbe wrong on the spell effect.) - gtk |
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May 13 2004, 11:40 PM
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#50
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
It's not in the magic chapter; it's in Man and Machine. Pg. 45, under Effects of Increased Reflexes. Personally I'd have made it a Reaction test, but apparently it's Perception, which means that mages are generally better off than sammies, although they have a TN 8 instead of a TN 7.
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