Astral Hazing - final statement Options

[Machiavelli]

Hi Folks,

i wonder if there has ever been a final solution of how it works. We already had the topic and acc. to the RAW it only influences awakened if they are IN the field of BC. But the part "This astral haze affects all attempts to cast magic on, at, or in the vicinity of the character" (Runners Companion, page 116) confused me a lot. It implements, that it also hinders magic, if you try to influence something within the field from the outside. Unfortunetely it is not further specified and also the explanation in Arsenal about Cyborgs and Cyberzombies uses the same words.

So maybe a dev mentioned some clarification in an unofficial or official errata, or in a other dicussion?

Please give me a short overview what is canon right at the moment.

Thank you.

[Neraph]

If you are inside casting at all, it affects you.

If you are outside, targeting something inside, it affects you.

If you are outside, targeting something outside, and BC is between you, it does not affect you.

Any other questions?

[Shortstraw]

If you are outside, targeting something outside, and BC is between you, it does not affect you.

What if you are using a flamethrower spell at force 4 or less and it is reduced to 0 by the field does it still come out the other side?

[psychophipps]

What if you are using a flamethrower spell at force 4 or less and it is reduced to 0 by the field does it still come out the other side?

Depends. You could say "Yes" and still scare the beejeezus out of your players with it, or you can say "no" if you want to have the astral hazing be an obvious effect.

[Bigity]

If you are inside casting at all, it affects you.

If you are outside, targeting something inside, it affects you.

If you are outside, targeting something outside, and BC is between you, it does not affect you.

Any other questions?

This seems odd. Haven't spells always been described as traveling through astral space directly to the target - thus, passing through the BC? What if this BC was enough to reduce Force to zero, would the spell continue out through the other side and bounce back to full strength?

[Neraph]

The game doesn't care about traversing BC at all. It cares about affects being cast inside of it, whether that means the caster is inside or the effect will be inside.

If you want a fluff example, however:

Indirect Combat spells create a real effect through magic. The fire from the Flamethrower is real fire, and real fire is not affected by Hazing. All other magic deals with the manafield at the target point of the spell, so you're not dealing with any mana from the BC anyways.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Per the rules, Combat spells are unaffected by BGC.

EDIT: Or what Neraph said - Confounded Ninja.

[Bigity]

The game doesn't care about traversing BC at all. It cares about affects being cast inside of it, whether that means the caster is inside or the effect will be inside.

If you want a fluff example, however:

Indirect Combat spells create a real effect through magic. The fire from the Flamethrower is real fire, and real fire is not affected by Hazing. All other magic deals with the manafield at the target point of the spell, so you're not dealing with any mana from the BC anyways.

Which makes you wonder how a spell can be intercepted by astral combat. The fact you can 'get in the way of' a spell with a held action seems to imply the spell must pass between the caster and the target.

[Mantis]

Which makes you wonder how a spell can be intercepted by astral combat. The fact you can 'get in the way of' a spell with a held action seems to imply the spell must pass between the caster and the target.

Where is that rule? I don't recall seeing that in 4th edition, though I do recall being able to pull off such shenanigans in previous editions.

[Bigity]

May not exist in 4th.

[Glyph]

"This astral haze affects all attempts to cast magic on, at, or in the vicinity of the character" is the key, because the previous rules dealt with background counts that were within areas rather than centered on an individual. Casting a spell at a cyberzombie is the same as casting a spell at someone within an area with a background count. The only difference is that with astral hazing, sometimes you can zap the person right next to the one with astral hazing without suffering the effects of background count.

Spells do not fizzle in a background count, but the mage still suffers the usual dual-whammy for using spells in a background count - Magic is reduced, and spell Force is increased for Drain purposes, both at the rating of the background count. A mage with magic: 5 casting a Force: 5 manabolt at a changeling with astral hazing would be -4 dice for the spellcasting roll, and would resist Drain as if it were a Force: 9 spell. It is unclear what happens if this would result in a spell being higher Force than the mage could normally overcast. I would assume that the spell would still go off, since the spell Force is only increased for the purposes of determining Drain. It's a GM call.

Pre-exising spells and foci would not be affected unless the mage entered the range of the astral hazing, likewise adepts and spirits. Most changeling PCs with this ability tend to be fractional-Essence street samurai, so you are usually okay unless you touch them. I am unsure how to deal with physical effects such as critical strike - the adept could lose that power, or have it reduced, but it would be right at the point of impact, which might be too late for the astral hazing to really affect it. This would be another GM call.

[Machiavelli]

Is that your houserule or an official solution for the bad description?

[Draco18s]

Magic is reduced, and spell Force is increased for Drain purposes

It is unclear what happens if this would result in a spell being higher Force than the mage could normally overcast. I would assume that the spell would still go off, since the spell Force is only increased for the purposes of determining Drain. It's a GM call.

It's not a GM call, you just typed out the rule in exact words that are very clear cut. I have underlined them.

[Neraph]

May not exist in 4th.

Does not.

"This astral haze affects all attempts to cast magic on, at, or in the vicinity of the character" is the key, because the previous rules dealt with background counts that were within areas rather than centered on an individual. Casting a spell at a cyberzombie is the same as casting a spell at someone within an area with a background count. The only difference is that with astral hazing, sometimes you can zap the person right next to the one with astral hazing without suffering the effects of background count.

Spells do not fizzle in a background count, but the mage still suffers the usual dual-whammy for using spells in a background count - Magic is reduced, and spell Force is increased for Drain purposes, both at the rating of the background count. A mage with magic: 5 casting a Force: 5 manabolt at a changeling with astral hazing would be -4 dice for the spellcasting roll, and would resist Drain as if it were a Force: 9 spell. It is unclear what happens if this would result in a spell being higher Force than the mage could normally overcast. I would assume that the spell would still go off, since the spell Force is only increased for the purposes of determining Drain. It's a GM call.

Pre-exising spells and foci would not be affected unless the mage entered the range of the astral hazing, likewise adepts and spirits. Most changeling PCs with this ability tend to be fractional-Essence street samurai, so you are usually okay unless you touch them. I am unsure how to deal with physical effects such as critical strike - the adept could lose that power, or have it reduced, but it would be right at the point of impact, which might be too late for the astral hazing to really affect it. This would be another GM call.

Actually, you don't lose dice for the Spellcasting Test - your Magic is affected. So in your example the mage would be at Magic 1, only able to Overcast to Force 2 spells, and the effective Force of a F2 spell is F6 for Drain Value.

As for the Adept: their Magic is reduced as well, reducing the Powers they have available. Whether the GM decides which are lost or the Player does will decide on the table and GM.

[Bigity]

Does not.

You can't attack spells in astral space anymore? Gah I'm glad I never played SR4/A. It takes away alot of my favorite moves.

[Glyph]

Actually, you don't lose dice for the Spellcasting Test - your Magic is affected. So in your example the mage would be at Magic 1, only able to Overcast to Force 2 spells, and the effective Force of a F2 spell is F6 for Drain Value.

Magic is part of the spellcasting test. A Magic reduced from 5 to 1 means 4 less dice to roll.

[Machiavelli]

Which is great. ^^ I asked Patrick Goodman for his view on the problem and whatever he tells me, will be our house-rule. If it is not positive enough, i will skip astral hazing once and for all.

[Draco18s]

If it is not positive enough, i will skip astral hazing once and for all.

You know Astral Hazing is a FLAW, right?

[Neraph]

Magic is part of the spellcasting test. A Magic reduced from 5 to 1 means 4 less dice to roll.

Right, but a Magic being reduced from a 5 to a 1 means it redefines the Force of spells able to be cast, in addition to reducing dice on the Test.

EDIT:
Street Magic, page 118, Backround Count and Magic, first paragraph, first sentence

Whether positive or negative, in game terms backround count reduces a character's Magic attribute by its absolute value.

Emphasis mine.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Any Magician/Mystic Adept/Adept I built in SR4A was built with the Expectation of a Rating 2 Background Count. Do it that way and you will never be surprised. Build the character to be able to function/survive in a Background count and you will never be useless. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Machiavelli]

You know Astral Hazing is a FLAW, right?

Depends from which side of the medal you look at it. Of course it is a flaw, because you hinder your teammates massively, you destroy wards wherever you roam and i also don´t think that it stays undetected if you pass one (this would be arguable). If you are awakened, you massively hinder yourself...all this speaks for a flaw. But on the other side, you are quite good protected from spells (arguable), you are definitely protected from spirits and if you have the balls, you are the close-combat-horror for every awakened oponent. So I would say, i pay the price and take the best out of it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Depends from which side of the medal you look at it. Of course it is a flaw, because you hinder your teammates massively, you destroy wards wherever you roam and i also don´t think that it stays undetected if you pass one (this would be arguable). If you are awakened, you massively hinder yourself...all this speaks for a flaw. But on the other side, you are quite good protected from spells (arguable), you are definitely protected from spirits and if you have the balls, you are the close-combat-horror for every awakened oponent. So I would say, i pay the price and take the best out of it.

And don't forget that you leave a path of astral corruption wherever you roam, and if you actually rest, you pollute the astral around you in an ever widening sphere. You are likely hunted, on the one hand to end your existence due to the astral pollution you leave behind, and on the other because you could potentially be a source of interesting research. AND, you are likely a beacon for every Twisted and Corrupt Spirit out there, many of whom might want to use you for their own ends. It is not a Flaw for the faint of heart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Depends from which side of the medal you look at it.

I look at it from the side of "It's listed under Negative Qualities."

[Machiavelli]

Ah, that is too easy. I look at it from the side "how can i get the highest benefit out of stuff that everybody else sees as a drawback". ^^ So the GM will grant me the flaw because he thinks i willingly f**ck myself (so that he doesn´t have to) and then he realizes that i actually f**ed him instead. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA....!!!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I look at it from the side of "It's listed under Negative Qualities."

There is NO DOUBT that Astral Hazing is a Negative Quality. But sometimes, even the darkest cloud has a silver lining. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It really is no Different than a Mage casting Mana Static (or Aspected Mana Static) and then using it against their enemies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)