Astral Hazing - final statement Options

[psychophipps]

So basically, y'all are trying to take "something that fucks everyone" and turn it into "awesome for you, but still fucks everyone else"?

[Stahlseele]

So basically, y'all are trying to take "something that fucks everyone" and turn it into "awesome for you, but still fucks everyone else"?

you say that as if that's a bad thing to do . .

[Draco18s]

So basically, y'all are trying to take "something that fucks everyone" and turn it into "awesome for you, but still fucks everyone else"?

That's the pro argument, yes.

[psychophipps]

Just checking. I had a feeling with all the semantic wankery and "Well, it doesn't say I can't..." horseshit being tossed around, it was someone trying to take a full-on negative trait and use it as a rape stick for everyone else because, well...fuck them.

[Sendaz]

To be fair, they are not trying to say they get the goodies for free, they are trying to establish a chain of circumstances/requirements/expenditures that would alter the situation.

The main arguing, outside of those about game balance, is whether the suggested steps would provide the effect they are desiring.

[psychophipps]

If "the effect they are desiring" is to remove the Astral Hazing, then I would say that is potentially possible. Pay off the negative trait with twice as much karma and they'd be good with good roleplaying and some serious long-term legwork. If they want to mage-screw everyone else and still be able to cast their own magic, have fun trying to convince a mage group into helping you initiate with an active magic of maybe one or two and screwing their magic every time you're around them.

Of course, anything is possible with the right leverage (aka we'll help, but we're going to make sure that you're our bitch until your "debt is paid in full")...

[Glyph]

While there may be nothing against it in the RAW, I have a problem picturing a character improving his Magic rating, and even initiating, while at a point where his own astral hazing gives him an effective Magic of zero. How do you improve something you can't even use?

[Neraph]

A Person is NOT an Area. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Deja Vu...

Persons take up physical space. They, by exact definition, have volume and surface area. So yes, by virtue of physical laws, people are and have area.

So basically, y'all are trying to take "something that fucks everyone" and turn it into "awesome for you, but still fucks everyone else"?

Not if the GM is clever. Flexible Aspect, for example. Yeah, you're a Chaos Mage, but that Hermetic can still gain the benefits, as the two traditions are similar. Or yeah, you're Black Magic, but that Christian mage can use it also.

If "the effect they are desiring" is to remove the Astral Hazing, then I would say that is potentially possible. Pay off the negative trait with twice as much karma and they'd be good with good roleplaying and some serious long-term legwork. If they want to mage-screw everyone else and still be able to cast their own magic, have fun trying to convince a mage group into helping you initiate with an active magic of maybe one or two and screwing their magic every time you're around them.

Of course, anything is possible with the right leverage (aka we'll help, but we're going to make sure that you're our bitch until your "debt is paid in full")...

You don't need a group to do it.

[Draco18s]

You don't need a group to do it.

You are aware of the dice pools and thresholds involved, right?

[Machiavelli]

There are no dice pools needed if you don´t want to save karma through an ordeal.

[Neraph]

You are aware of the dice pools and thresholds involved, right?

Uhh... You mean 4 successes needed and a pool of (Current) Magic + Ritual Spellcasting? A number of successful times in a row equal to the BC you are trying to Aspect? Yes. You are aware that you can spend Edge on this, right?

EDIT: Also, the cost for Initiating in a group does not pay for itself until the third and above Initiation, as it costs 5 karma to join the group in the first place. The first two Initiations are virtually indistinguishable because of that (I think the group saves you 1 karma total on the second Initiation, after the cost of joining is factored).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Uhh... You mean 4 successes needed and a pool of (Current) Magic + Ritual Spellcasting? A number of successful times in a row equal to the BC you are trying to Aspect? Yes. You are aware that you can spend Edge on this, right?

EDIT: Also, the cost for Initiating in a group does not pay for itself until the third and above Initiation, as it costs 5 karma to join the group in the first place. The first two Initiations are virtually indistinguishable because of that (I think the group saves you 1 karma total on the second Initiation, after the cost of joining is factored).

You join a Group for the Long Run...

[Draco18s]

Uhh... You mean 4 successes needed and a pool of (Current) Magic + Ritual Spellcasting? A number of successful times in a row equal to the BC you are trying to Aspect? Yes. You are aware that you can spend Edge on this, right?

Yeah. That.

Treat the geomantic ritual as if
she were casting a spell with a Force equal to twice the site’s
natural background count and with a threshold equal to twice
the site’s background count.
This ritual must successfully be completed once each lunar
month (28 days) for a number of months in a row equal
to the site’s background count for the aspecting to become
permanent.

Also known as 8 successes 4 times, casting a Force 8 spell (requires Magic 4, and overcasting).

[Shemhazai]

GEO-mancy. A person is neither a mana line nor a power site.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

GEO-mancy. A person is neither a mana line nor a power site.

Problem is: Some are arguing that Astral Hazing IS a Power Site. Just a mobile one centered upon a person.

[Stahlseele]

rather, a domain in his or her own right, correct?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

rather, a domain in his or her own right, correct?

Something like that I guess. But People cannot be Domains, Only locations can have that vaunted status, to my understanding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

Unfortunately, the quality specifically states "...the character becomes an aspected domain in her own right...". For shenanigans like this, I think it is easier to simply make a house rule to prohibit it, rather than go around and around arguing whether it is allowable by RAW or not.

[Stahlseele]

because if you can aspect a domain, then yes, you very much can aspect the BGC created by astral hazing, as it's a domain being created.

[Neraph]

Yeah. That.
Also known as 8 successes 4 times, casting a Force 8 spell (requires Magic 4, and overcasting).

Eh, I was pretty close.

GEO-mancy. A person is neither a mana line nor a power site.

The why is he producing Backround Count? Obviously he is a power site.

rather, a domain in his or her own right, correct?

If you want to paraphrase the actual rule then yes.

Unfortunately, the quality specifically states "...the character becomes an aspected domain in her own right...". For shenanigans like this, I think it is easier to simply make a house rule to prohibit it, rather than go around and around arguing whether it is allowable by RAW or not.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

because if you can aspect a domain, then yes, you very much can aspect the BGC created by astral hazing, as it's a domain being created.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Stahlseele]

wait . . if it says aspected domain right there in the actual rules text, then why are we arguing about this again? O.o
if it is always aspected, that means all you have to do is change towards what it is actually aspected to correct? o.O

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

wait . . if it says aspected domain right there in the actual rules text, then why are we arguing about this again? O.o
if it is always aspected, that means all you have to do is change towards what it is actually aspected to correct? o.O

It is Neutral (as in NO TRADITION AFFILIATION) like Astral Static - This is what makes it a Negative Quality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The argument is whether you can use the Geomancy Metamagic as given to Aspect the nature of the Person (since that is what you have to change). I would say no. I could get behind Filtering to minimize it with training, but turning it positive is counter to the Intent of the NQ (and I say is outside of the capabilities of Geomancy anyways), and does not fly at our table.

[Neraph]

It is Neutral (as in NO TRADITION AFFILIATION) like Astral Static - This is what makes it a Negative Quality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The argument is whether you can use the Geomancy Metamagic as given to Aspect the nature of the Person (since that is what you have to change). I would say no. I could get behind Filtering to minimize it with training, but turning it positive is counter to the Intent of the NQ (and I say is outside of the capabilities of Geomancy anyways), and does not fly at our table.

Emphasis mine.

No it isn't.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No it isn't.

You have yet to prove it conclusively, all you have is an opinion.
Emphasis Mine...




And you obviously missed the part in my post where what I wrote is my opinion. It is right before the part you emphasized. And you STILL fail to explain how a SITE is the same as a Person. One is a Location, and the other is NOT. Seems pretty cut and dried in my opinion. The Astral Hazing Character is not a Power SITE, he is a Power SOURCE. They are NOT Synonymous. *shrug*

[Draco18s]

I also love how my argument on the pesky little detail of Geomancy affecting the "ambient bgc" and Astral Hazing overwriting the "ambient conditions" "ergo A can't effect B" hasn't been refuted. Criticized, but not actually shown to be in error.