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> Trolls underpowered?
Machiavelli
post Apr 24 2014, 09:42 AM
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With all these troll-topics we have at the moment, i wanted to throw in another one.

DO YOU ALSO THINK TROLLS ARE UNDERPOWERED?

IMHO the physical ratings are (especially if you compare them to the drawbacks) a joke. We are talking about an average height of 2,50 m, weight of something around 200kg. The next closest metatype would be the ork with 1,90m and about 100kg? Body difference between these both types is ONE? This is a joke.

Same goes for strength. The difference to the ork is only 2 point. That’s virtually nothing. I assume with an average strength of 5, a troll would even have difficulties to lift himself up from a chair. Even worse does it get, if you compare the troll to a dwarf: 1,20m and only 2 points in between? Ridiculous.

I know this problem exists since version 1, but that doesnīt make it better. Besides now that I play a troll, I have to support this race. ^^
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Stahlseele
post Apr 24 2014, 10:49 AM
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Trolls were much more worth playing in SR3, that much is true at least.
And the SR lifting system means that no, even a fully maxed out strength troll can not pull himself up a rope.
And technically, because it's the same strength for his legs also, he can not stand on his own two legs either.

As of SR4, it was impossible for Trolls to actually reach their augmented Maximum in Body at least.
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Stingray
post Apr 24 2014, 11:06 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 24 2014, 01:49 PM) *
Trolls were much more worth playing in SR3, that much is true at least.
And the SR lifting system means that no, even a fully maxed out strength troll can not pull himself up a rope.
And technically, because it's the same strength for his legs also, he can not stand on his own two legs either.

As of SR4, it was impossible for Trolls to actually reach their augmented Maximum in Body at least.

..so would be very expensive(yen, essence, charc.building points) to reach Augmented Max Str also..making them both good option for Impaired Attribute- quality..
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Umidori
post Apr 24 2014, 11:34 AM
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Yeah, running the numbers in 4E, Trolls were either the least cost efficient for the BP, or the second least - I forget which.

And yes, I remember personally trying every trick I could think of to hit the Augmented Maximum for Body and failing repeatedly short of employing tricks like powerful sustained spells, which I don't really feel count. The closest I got was using the Attribute Boost Adept Power, but that's only a hair better than a sustained spell, really. Not to mention that there's very little point in hitting the Augmented Maximum in Body - it quicks becomes amazingly cost inefficient.

~Umi
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Machiavelli
post Apr 24 2014, 11:36 AM
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Right, but in this case, you donīt have to be a troll anymore. Troll with impaired body/strenght is an ork. ^^
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Stingray
post Apr 24 2014, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 24 2014, 02:36 PM) *
Right, but in this case, you donīt have to be a troll anymore. Troll with impaired body/strenght is an ork. ^^

..Surge big Ork, add Celerity,Dermal Deposit, Elongeted limbs and natural Thermographic-vision..add horns if u want.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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FuelDrop
post Apr 24 2014, 12:30 PM
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We have a player who refuses flat to play any non-trolls. Even his squishiest characters tend to have soak pools around the 30s. Having seen the amount of punishment his characters take I would not say that trolls are underpowered by any means but they do pay a high opportunity cost.
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Umidori
post Apr 24 2014, 12:41 PM
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30 Dice to Soak? How the hell is he getting a hold of MilSpec armor, and how is he getting away with wearing it all the time?

Conversely, same question but with rather high force Armor spells.

~Umi
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Stingray
post Apr 24 2014, 12:55 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Apr 24 2014, 03:41 PM) *
30 Dice to Soak? How the hell is he getting a hold of MilSpec armor, and how is he getting away with wearing it all the time?

Conversely, same question but with rather high force Armor spells.

~Umi

..Heavy Military armor (avail. 20F) (restricted gear-Quality) (18/16), Body 10, and Additional Dermal Deposit ( +disguise/camo spells..).. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
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Machiavelli
post Apr 24 2014, 01:39 PM
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I think Umidori meant, how he gets away wearing this armor without causing too much attention (read: SWAT commando).^^
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Stingray
post Apr 24 2014, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 24 2014, 04:39 PM) *
I think Umidori meant, how he gets away wearing this armor without causing too much attention (read: SWAT commando).^^

..as my latest post + disguise/camo spells ( i believe there is a spells for that purprose..)
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Machiavelli
post Apr 24 2014, 01:46 PM
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Aaaah, ok, now i get it. Sorry, headache since 3 days. I think i need the weekend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Apr 24 2014, 01:53 PM
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i WAS going to ask how disguise and camo are supposed to help with soaking <.<;,
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Machiavelli
post Apr 24 2014, 02:04 PM
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At least, i am not alone. Hoorray.^^
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Stingray
post Apr 24 2014, 02:08 PM
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.. i just ninjaed both answers in same post??.. nice..
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Machiavelli
post Apr 24 2014, 02:12 PM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Enjoy it, it might never ever happen again. ^^
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Medicineman
post Apr 24 2014, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE
We are talking about an average height of 2,50 m, weight of something around 200kg. The next closest metatype would be the ork with 1,90m and about 100kg? Body difference between these both types is ONE? This is a joke.

just fyi
Troll Height 2,50 Weight is 300 Kilos (average)
Ork Height 1,90 Weight 150+ Kilos
(and I refuse to play a Troll in SR5 with the priority System ! )

with a sidenotedance
Medicineman
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Machiavelli
post Apr 24 2014, 02:16 PM
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Ah, ok. I am AFB but i referred to a weight list on the internet that still had a troll with the height of 2,8 and 225kg. I thought it cannot have changed that much. ^^

100% agree. I would never play a troll in SR5. In SR4 and with the karma-creation-system you get some nice results.
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Medicineman
post Apr 24 2014, 02:19 PM
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QUOTE
I would never play a troll in SR5.

Its not that I won't play a Troll in SR5.
I refuse to make one with the F* Prio System.(you'rather see Stahlseele playing a Troll than me making one with Prio System (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) !! )
I have an interesting concept for a Fomori Shaolin Priest (Astral Adept) but I'm waiting for a reasonable Char creation system (preferebly Karma or at least Building Points )

with a karmic Dance
Medicineman
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Stahlseele
post Apr 24 2014, 02:19 PM
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Trolls in SR3 were up to 3m with Giants up to 3.5m and a Weight of 300 to 400 kilo
In SR4, they were shortened to 2 to 2.5m and 200 to 300 kilo

And i don't just play the Troll, i am the Troll.
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Machiavelli
post Apr 24 2014, 02:23 PM
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Amen Brother. ^^ Jeah, i am also waiting for new SR5 source-books that negate all the bull**t they wrote in the core-book. ^^ I still think it was an april fools-joke.
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Medicineman
post Apr 24 2014, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE
Trolls in SR3 were up to 3m with Giants up to 3.5m and a Weight of 300 to 400 kilo

Sorry but You're wrong
Trolls in SR3 were tall (2,80-300 Meters but skinny 150 Kilos 200 Max which was ridiculously ....sparse (?)

QUOTE
In SR4, they were shortened to 2 to 2.5m and 200 to 300 kilo

2,50 Meters with a way more reasonable 300 Kilos

QUOTE
And i don't just play the Troll, i am the Troll.

Sometimes in the Forums too
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (Sorry cnr )

with a big Grin Dance
Medicineman
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Stingray
post Apr 24 2014, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Apr 24 2014, 02:34 PM) *
Yeah, running the numbers in 4E, Trolls were either the least cost efficient for the BP, or the second least - I forget which.

And yes, I remember personally trying every trick I could think of to hit the Augmented Maximum for Body and failing repeatedly short of employing tricks like powerful sustained spells, which I don't really feel count. The closest I got was using the Attribute Boost Adept Power, but that's only a hair better than a sustained spell, really. Not to mention that there's very little point in hitting the Augmented Maximum in Body - it quicks becomes amazingly cost inefficient.

~Umi

..Adept.. (magic 6)+(lvl 2 init)
..paying Body to 10 ( max natural)
5x Improved Physical Attribute (a' 1,5 pp) ( costing 7,5 pp)
= Troll w/ Body 15..
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Jaid
post Apr 24 2014, 07:08 PM
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the problem with trolls in SR5:

- they have large attribute bonuses, which suggests they should not be very inexpensive. particularly in combination with how expensive attributes in general are in SR5 priority chargen compared to how much you get from, say, skills, or magic (but not special, because technomancers kinda suck)

- on the flip side, of those large attribute bonuses, one is an attribute which very few builds require at an even remotely high level, and the other is more than you would typically put into a build that isn't explicitly designed to soak damage.

the net result: trolls are overpriced, *unless* you're building a very strong very tough melee troll, in which case they cost about as much as they should for the benefits they offer. for anyone who wasn't planning on very high values, you'd have been better off with an ork. for anyone who wasn't planning on more than 6 in either, you'd have been better off with just about any other race.
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Sponge
post Apr 24 2014, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 24 2014, 02:08 PM) *
*unless* you're building a very strong very tough melee troll, in which case they cost about as much as they should for the benefits they offer.


And even that build is fairly limited in games that aren't combat-heavy.

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