With all these troll-topics we have at the moment, i wanted to throw in another one.

DO YOU ALSO THINK TROLLS ARE UNDERPOWERED?

IMHO the physical ratings are (especially if you compare them to the drawbacks) a joke. We are talking about an average height of 2,50 m, weight of something around 200kg. The next closest metatype would be the ork with 1,90m and about 100kg? Body difference between these both types is ONE? This is a joke.

Same goes for strength. The difference to the ork is only 2 point. That’s virtually nothing. I assume with an average strength of 5, a troll would even have difficulties to lift himself up from a chair. Even worse does it get, if you compare the troll to a dwarf: 1,20m and only 2 points in between? Ridiculous.

I know this problem exists since version 1, but that doesn´t make it better. Besides now that I play a troll, I have to support this race. ^^

Trolls were much more worth playing in SR3, that much is true at least.
And the SR lifting system means that no, even a fully maxed out strength troll can not pull himself up a rope.
And technically, because it's the same strength for his legs also, he can not stand on his own two legs either.

As of SR4, it was impossible for Trolls to actually reach their augmented Maximum in Body at least.

..so would be very expensive(yen, essence, charc.building points) to reach Augmented Max Str also..making them both good option for Impaired Attribute- quality..

Yeah, running the numbers in 4E, Trolls were either the least cost efficient for the BP, or the second least - I forget which.

And yes, I remember personally trying every trick I could think of to hit the Augmented Maximum for Body and failing repeatedly short of employing tricks like powerful sustained spells, which I don't really feel count. The closest I got was using the Attribute Boost Adept Power, but that's only a hair better than a sustained spell, really. Not to mention that there's very little point in hitting the Augmented Maximum in Body - it quicks becomes amazingly cost inefficient.

~Umi

Right, but in this case, you don´t have to be a troll anymore. Troll with impaired body/strenght is an ork. ^^

..Surge big Ork, add Celerity,Dermal Deposit, Elongeted limbs and natural Thermographic-vision..add horns if u want..

We have a player who refuses flat to play any non-trolls. Even his squishiest characters tend to have soak pools around the 30s. Having seen the amount of punishment his characters take I would not say that trolls are underpowered by any means but they do pay a high opportunity cost.

30 Dice to Soak? How the hell is he getting a hold of MilSpec armor, and how is he getting away with wearing it all the time?

Conversely, same question but with rather high force Armor spells.

~Umi

..Heavy Military armor (avail. 20F) (restricted gear-Quality) (18/16), Body 10, and Additional Dermal Deposit ( +disguise/camo spells..)..

I think Umidori meant, how he gets away wearing this armor without causing too much attention (read: SWAT commando).^^

..as my latest post + disguise/camo spells ( i believe there is a spells for that purprose..)

Aaaah, ok, now i get it. Sorry, headache since 3 days. I think i need the weekend.

i WAS going to ask how disguise and camo are supposed to help with soaking <.<;,

At least, i am not alone. Hoorray.^^

.. i just ninjaed both answers in same post??.. nice..

Enjoy it, it might never ever happen again. ^^

just fyi
Troll Height 2,50 Weight is 300 Kilos (average)
Ork Height 1,90 Weight 150+ Kilos
(and I refuse to play a Troll in SR5 with the priority System ! )

with a sidenotedance
Medicineman

Ah, ok. I am AFB but i referred to a weight list on the internet that still had a troll with the height of 2,8 and 225kg. I thought it cannot have changed that much. ^^

100% agree. I would never play a troll in SR5. In SR4 and with the karma-creation-system you get some nice results.

Its not that I won't play a Troll in SR5.
I refuse to make one with the F* Prio System.(you'rather see Stahlseele playing a Troll than me making one with Prio System !! )
I have an interesting concept for a Fomori Shaolin Priest (Astral Adept) but I'm waiting for a reasonable Char creation system (preferebly Karma or at least Building Points )

with a karmic Dance
Medicineman

Trolls in SR3 were up to 3m with Giants up to 3.5m and a Weight of 300 to 400 kilo
In SR4, they were shortened to 2 to 2.5m and 200 to 300 kilo

And i don't just play the Troll, i am the Troll.

Amen Brother. ^^ Jeah, i am also waiting for new SR5 source-books that negate all the bull**t they wrote in the core-book. ^^ I still think it was an april fools-joke.

Sorry but You're wrong
Trolls in SR3 were tall (2,80-300 Meters but skinny 150 Kilos 200 Max which was ridiculously ....sparse (?)


2,50 Meters with a way more reasonable 300 Kilos


Sometimes in the Forums too
(Sorry cnr )

with a big Grin Dance
Medicineman

..Adept.. (magic 6)+(lvl 2 init)
..paying Body to 10 ( max natural)
5x Improved Physical Attribute (a' 1,5 pp) ( costing 7,5 pp)
= Troll w/ Body 15..

the problem with trolls in SR5:

- they have large attribute bonuses, which suggests they should not be very inexpensive. particularly in combination with how expensive attributes in general are in SR5 priority chargen compared to how much you get from, say, skills, or magic (but not special, because technomancers kinda suck)

- on the flip side, of those large attribute bonuses, one is an attribute which very few builds require at an even remotely high level, and the other is more than you would typically put into a build that isn't explicitly designed to soak damage.

the net result: trolls are overpriced, *unless* you're building a very strong very tough melee troll, in which case they cost about as much as they should for the benefits they offer. for anyone who wasn't planning on very high values, you'd have been better off with an ork. for anyone who wasn't planning on more than 6 in either, you'd have been better off with just about any other race.

And even that build is fairly limited in games that aren't combat-heavy.

And even in combat heavy games, melee is very limited with magic and guns on the field.
And even then most GMs will scream bloody murder about maxed out body and strength and close combat damage and soak and find ways to nerf these on the fly because:"OMG! OP! POWERGAMER!"

My second question still stands - how does he get away with keeping all those spells active?

He should light up on the Astral like a frelling Christmas tree, drawing the very curious attention of anyone who cares to look. And the minute he has to pass through a ward his mage is going to hate him.


Yeah, except that requires Initiating twice. :eyeroll:

Anyone can max an attribute if given enough time to build up Karma. The trick is to hit your Augmented Maximum at chargen.

~Umi

this is 5th edition so soak pools are a bit higher:
Body 8 +1 natural +12 AJ +2 helmet is already a healthy 23. Add a riot shield (+6) and you're already rolling 29 dice. Yes, he does tend to play high strength high body.

When you start adding 'ware his soak pools get fricking ridiculous.

Feel the power of my double post!

That is what happens when you post with wireless OFF

But how else am I supposed to protect myself from Deckers?!?

I quake at its Glory.

Go Throwback or Go Home!!!

Did that get changed in the German book? Because my copy says 2.8 m and 225 kg on average. Which made them REALLY skinny (IIRC it was PG who crusaded against that).

But whether 2.8 or 3 meters, it really made them incompatible with human dwellings and pretty much everything else. I think 2.5 m is a good middle way, badass tall but not constantly knuckle-walking...

Anyway, why do trolls suck? A couple of points I can think of
1.) Priority gen is shit and needs to die a fiery death
2.) Karma gen/advancement punishes the increase of naturally high stats. Relatively simple solution: Positive modifiers don't add to the stats directly, but are treated as a bonus to the natural 1-6.
3.) Being that large and strong should bring its benefits outside of higher melee damage, but only few of those get implemented. Strenght-based RC is a step in the right direction, but how about troll pistols where the XL grip isn't just padding, but filled with an accordingly long clip? Or spurs whose stats account for the fact that a troll arm can hold slightly bigger blades?

PS: 4.) With the upped damage in 5th, relying on Body for soaking hits has become even worse

naaaah
Stahlseele just added his Ego to the Stats

HokaHey
Medicineman

Trolls in SR1 were inefficient, but so were all the metatypes. You needed Priority A to be anything other than a human, and you were saddled with an allergy, with no way to avoid it. SR2 technically wasn't any better, unless you used the More Metahumans optional rule, in which case trolls rocked: they cost exactly the same as the other metaraces, but got bigger benefits.

SR3 was the first time the developers realized that not all the metatypes were created equal, and charged more for elves and trolls than the rest. Even then, trolls were crazy powerful: I had a troll street sam that was pretty much invulnerable. He had a habit of charging machine gun nests, without getting hurt. He stepped in front of an assault cannon to protect his teammate, and took no damage. He ran around with a claymore strapped to his chest, and once detonated a grenade on his belt to chunky salsa someone else. Hell, the only time he was ever wounded from a mundane source was when a sniper tried to take him out. And even with surprise, the troll only took one box of damage.

In SR4.5, trolls could be effective, but in much more limited circumstances. I haven't played with SR5 so much, but it appears they can be just as good as humans in traditionally human roles: they can dump Body and Strength, and still be tougher than most humans. That gives them a little room to play with archetypes that traditionally can't afford much Body. In other words, they can make good generalists. Unfortunately, I dislike generalists in Shadowrun.

It's a shame to hear all of this - trolls are probably my favorite types in Shadowrun, next to humans.

But this is why point buy builds suck butt: there's always going to be "this is inefficient next to XYZ."

And somehow Priority isn't inefficient?

In any game system which employs numerical representations of non-quantitative concepts, you're always going to have the problem of trying to balance those numbers. Priority has the same problem as Karma or BP generation, in that there is typically always more than one option for achieving a certain number, and one of those ways is going to be more efficient than another depending on what you're doing.

Just off the top of my head, with the 5E Priority system, if you want to increase the rating of a skill (or even just add a specialization), there is one range of values at which it is more efficient to pay for that increase with your allocated Skill points, and a different range of values where it more efficient to spend your starting Karma.

For example, let's say you have your Sneaking at 5, and you decide you want to use your final Skill Point and some Karma to both raise your Sneaking to 6, and to take Running 1. If you spend your final Skill Point on Running 1, you have to spend 12 Karma to raise Sneaking to 6. But if you instead spend your final Skill Point on raising Sneaking to 6, then it only costs you 2 Karma to buy Running 1. The end result is exactly the same, but you save 10 Karma by switching around how you buy up the skills.

This sort of problem is why Karma Gen and BP generation appeal to many folks. In both these systems, raising your Sneaking from 5 to 6 is always going to cost the exact same amount of Karma or BP, regardless of anything else. There are exceptions, of course - like the extra BP costs of maxing out an Attribute, for example - but in general, Karma and BP generation is "fair" with how it prices things. You get exactly what you "pay for", essentially.

In contrast, Priority Gen as it currently stands in 5E is not fair. Certain choices have costs that are not proportional to the benefits received, and simple things like changing the order in which you select two otherwise identical choices can produce vastly differing costs.

~Umi

Heck, I must in the wrong forum. That's a MMORPG thread, isn't it?

no, an MMORPG would be patched out of such nonsense very soon.

Jeah....just like every other RPG would already have got an errata or a proper preproduction before the new rule-set is published. Only ar SR it doesn´t work. THE CURSE....FEAR IT. ^^

Sorry, miscommunication thanks to the early hour I was posting.

I'm not a fan of anything like this, honestly, priority or BP or anything. I'd rather see a more narrative based system like FATE or Dungeon World where the focus is more on the narrative and mechanics and building a character, not having the biggest dice pool in the room and worrying about efficiency or usefulness in the group.

I understand why people like those things, but this thread kind of shows why I feel the way that I do.

Double, sorry, posting from phone.

FATE is a pretty awesome system.
I have current conversions for DnD Style Fantasy and World of Darkness in the works for FATE. And currently Playing a Fantasy Fate (with another WOD Style FATE Game on Hiatus)... Tons of Fun.

as long as it's not such an abominiation as the CBT MW RPG Life-Path-System <.<

Well, it's a bit over-zealous in Dumpshock. Like, for exemple, your own reaction. "Such nonsense" goes way too far.


However, each step into the right direction is good to take. Even if it's hard to really tell if something has to be done at all. I mean, it's not an MMORPG and every character hasn't to be optimized at all costs anyways.

Are you talking about the SAGA / card system, the system they started using for Soveirgn Stone, or Cortex+? I love me some Cortex.

No, i am talking about the classic battletech MechWarrior RPG Life-Path System.
You start out with a certain ammount of points, then you have to chose life path modules and pay for these modules.
And then after you have done that you need to buy attributes back up to positive ammounts if they were lowered into the negatives by the modules (which they involountarily will) and then depending on the module you have to buy them up even further to reach certain qualifications and then if you need more points to do that you need to accept drawbacks or more modules that can and WILL literally cost your character an arm, a leg, an eye, an ear or something like that . .

Works a bit differently now in MechWarrior 3. But the Life Paths are still present. I like them in MechWarrior 3, though.

Is that AToW?
Because that's what i had to make a character for.
And it took me, using an excel sheet, the better Part of a day!
And then there's things like needing to pay a metric shit ton of points for a machine that you need for your character . .
And then having paid the points actually as per the rules not neccessarely GETTING that machine either!