Tomb of Horrors, Evil DM endorsed in text? Options

[Wounded Ronin]

Look, it's the classic module, Tomb of Horrors: http://staff.washington.edu/freitz/S1.pdf

It's a classic module but the premise is sort of bizarre. Can you imagine anyone constructing such an elaborate structure just to mess with adventurers, but then hiding it away so well that no one can find it? And then with such elaborate construction and craftsmanship there's no plans, maps, or records you can find of the Tomb ahead of time. The original premise doesn't even make sense.

Anyway, though, what really jumped out at me was an apparent endorsement of DM-sadism, which I thought is universally frowned upon:

Magic Archway: When the party examines this arch give them ILLUSTRATION #5. and inform them that the stones glow in these colors whenever any person comes within 3' of the portal: lower left, OLIVE; keystone, RUSSET; lower right, CITRON. No matter which stones are pressed in what order, the archway remains clouded and veiled with a haze which nothing can enable the onlookers to see through. All living matter which goes through the arch will be teleported to 3 , while non-living matter is teleported simultaneously to 33 , i.e. characters stepping through will appear at the start totally nude, while everything else with them will go to the crypt of the demi-lich (Cruel but most entertaining for the DM . . .)

I guess in 1978 that was more acceptable.

EDIT: It also occurs to me that there's not really a good reason for adventurers to go into the ToH even if they can. There's no confirmation of superior valuables or what have you in there. There's also no intel, a fearsome reputation, and a big investment to get to the ToH in the first place. Why not just go looting somewhere else where you know there is treasure to be found?

EDIT 2: There's also some logic here that, were I a DM running this campaign, I wouldn't fully understand.

Archway of Glowing Orange: As already stated, the skeleton on the floor of the chapel room is outstretched and pointing to the arch. (Show your players GRAPHIC#5, and explain that none of the stones of the arch glow, but that the entranceway is filled with luminous orange vapors of an exciting hue.) These vivid orange mists cannot be penetrated with any sort of vision or magic. The skeleton, of course, misleads the party, for any character passing through the portal will enter a 10' x 10' room where their sex and alignment are reversed by a terrible curse. (Although restoration of alignment and sex to original is difficult, the curse once reversed will not alter paladin-hood, ranger status, etc.) Re-entering the archway will restore original alignment, but 1-6 hit points of damage will be sustained in so doing. Going back a 3 rd time will reverse sex again, but the individual will be teleported as arch 10A does.
Only wish or alter reality spell will restore both alignment and sex. However, if alignment is restored by entering the orange portal, a remove curse spell will then restore original sex. Prior to alignment restoration, no spells other than those stated will affect the cursed character.

So, what happens if a Ranger or Paladin become Chaotic Evil, but then do not have the means to change back? What character class are they? Do they temporarily lose certain abilities but if so which ones?

If they can lose class abilities or whatever by behaving evilly, why should they gain them back when alignment is restored, if they were subject to losing them in the first place over something not caused by free will?

I mean, either they should not lose them because it's not their fault (and then you suddenly get an evil Paladin running around), or they should lose them regardless of free will. But having it both ways seems illogical.

I notice it assumes that the player will want to change their character back as well. I could see a situation where a player is tired of playing his high level Lawful Good character he's been running for a long time, and decides to keep the character as a Chaotic Evil female, which is like getting a new character without having to start over at level 1.

EDIT 3: OK, I just read through it. There's no treasure in that tomb that is remotely worth it, other than arguably the 100,000 EXP you get for destroying the demi-lich via certain highly arbitrary and random proscribed means.

[pbangarth]

The answer to your questions is on the front cover. Gary Gygax wrote it.

I had occasion to play in a session at Gencon years ago in which he was the DM. My impression was that he was a sadistic, evil, troll of a GM who delighted in the misery of his players.

Could have just been the module, though, and that he was playing according to instructions. But he sure looked like he was enjoying sticking it to the players.

And he LOVED traps.

[Tiralee]

Ah Ronin - The Tomb of Horrors isn't for fun, it's for boasting about.
From memory, it was a showcase of "how to kill your players" in arena/tournament, using these beefed-up player sheets, in 1979.

So, you turn up, have a beer or 3, meet some people, buy an official Monster manual (Rather then the smudged photostat copy you'd managed to finangle) and some figurines and then sit down to the most ball-burstingly painful adventure you'd never heard of otherwise. You hear the screams from the other players, and the low laughs as people make their way deeper into the tomb, many finding out just what's at the end of that corridor.

It's not meant to be awesome or deep - it's nerd-bragging rights (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Tir

[X-Kalibur]

Ah Ronin - The Tomb of Horrors isn't for fun, it's for boasting about.
From memory, it was a showcase of "how to kill your players" in arena/tournament, using these beefed-up player sheets, in 1979.

So, you turn up, have a beer or 3, meet some people, buy an official Monster manual (Rather then the smudged photostat copy you'd managed to finangle) and some figurines and then sit down to the most ball-burstingly painful adventure you'd never heard of otherwise. You hear the screams from the other players, and the low laughs as people make their way deeper into the tomb, many finding out just what's at the end of that corridor.

It's not meant to be awesome or deep - it's nerd-bragging rights (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Tir

Undermountain also comes to mind.

[pbangarth]

It's not meant to be awesome or deep - it's nerd-bragging rights (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I killed Lolth by throwing kegs of holy water at her! *fist pump*

[Wounded Ronin]

The answer to your questions is on the front cover. Gary Gygax wrote it.

I had occasion to play in a session at Gencon years ago in which he was the DM. My impression was that he was a sadistic, evil, troll of a GM who delighted in the misery of his players.

Could have just been the module, though, and that he was playing according to instructions. But he sure looked like he was enjoying sticking it to the players.

And he LOVED traps.

Wow. Well, his Slayer's Guide to the Undead was really something, with lots of monsters that could basically permanently eff up your character. Although it also had lots of interesting philosophical stuff on what is the nature of life, and given that what exactly is Energy Drain, and all this kind of thing. In some ways it was kind of troll-ish, but on the other hand, it was interesting. It would make for an interesting, if deadly and tragic, campaign if you used that stuff.

I never met the man. Thanks for sharing.

[Wounded Ronin]

Ah Ronin - The Tomb of Horrors isn't for fun, it's for boasting about.
From memory, it was a showcase of "how to kill your players" in arena/tournament, using these beefed-up player sheets, in 1979.

So, you turn up, have a beer or 3, meet some people, buy an official Monster manual (Rather then the smudged photostat copy you'd managed to finangle) and some figurines and then sit down to the most ball-burstingly painful adventure you'd never heard of otherwise. You hear the screams from the other players, and the low laughs as people make their way deeper into the tomb, many finding out just what's at the end of that corridor.

It's not meant to be awesome or deep - it's nerd-bragging rights (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Tir

Bragging rights would seem to be the only reason for a *character* to venture into this light-on-treasure fun house.

[Remnar]

Ahh, the Tomb of Horrors. Back when games were games and didn't pull punches or hold hands. Also when we wanted to punch our GM.

We ran it a time or two, didn't get far. Then again, back in those days I generally showed up to a session with backup characters as a rule, so I never got too sad when my PC's died an adventurer's death.

[Shortstraw]

I killed Lolth by throwing kegs of holy water at her! *fist pump*

So there I was facing off alone against Tiamat and her 7 sisters with only a table leg for a weapon...

[Tiralee]

"So, as a surprise attack, I piss on the Balrog's head..."

(Not mine, but an epic way to TPK via Halfling Thief, 1st edition:)


-Tir!

[Wounded Ronin]

I kind of wonder why at the end of the day the Demi-Lich even had to be there.

Gygax may as well have been like, "Sorry guys but the Demi Lich has moved on and there's nothing left of him. You guys endured all that crap but the guy is actually residing in another dimension now and doesn't care about the stupid tomb he left behind on Mystyra."

[pbangarth]

To be fair, G.G. did write some good stuff on using role playing to broaden the mind, read historical things, step outside the box of normal life. The theoretical material was interesting.


So was the way he eventually killed your PC. "Ooooh. I never died like that before!"

[hyzmarca]

I kind of wonder why at the end of the day the Demi-Lich even had to be there.

Gygax may as well have been like, "Sorry guys but the Demi Lich has moved on and there's nothing left of him. You guys endured all that crap but the guy is actually residing in another dimension now and doesn't care about the stupid tomb he left behind on Mystyra."

1) It was on Greyhawk. Mystara was created for BEMI. Greyhawk was Gygax's personal playground.

Anyway, I have heard that Gygax created Tomb of Horrors specifically because his players complained that his dungeons had become too easy. It was basically "they want a challenge, I'll give them a challenge." It was made specifically to murderize high level characters played by Gygax's friends and family.

That being said, it isn't perfect at doing so. Gygax overlooked a number of solutions, such as Sir Robilar's. He simply hired a bunch of low-level Orc Mercenaries and had them clear out the dungeon for him. They died in job lots, but that just meant fewer mercenaries that he'd have to pay.

[Wounded Ronin]

1) It was on Greyhawk. Mystara was created for BEMI. Greyhawk was Gygax's personal playground.

Anyway, I have heard that Gygax created Tomb of Horrors specifically because his players complained that his dungeons had become too easy. It was basically "they want a challenge, I'll give them a challenge." It was made specifically to murderize high level characters played by Gygax's friends and family.

That being said, it isn't perfect at doing so. Gygax overlooked a number of solutions, such as Sir Rolibar's. He simply hired a bunch of low-level Orc Mercenaries and had them clear out the dungeon for him. They died in job lots, but that just meant fewer mercenaries that he'd have to pay.

Aha, I looked this up.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.ph...l=1#post2868042

Okay, the city's name is pronounced DYE-vers.

The Tomb of Horrors was inspired by material sent to me by Alan Lucien, and I believe I have credited him in this regard, but it has been so many years I can not recall where and how. Anyway...

The place was designed to test the mettle of the best players, stretch their ability to the maximum. That it did, while nor a few PCs belonging to very capable players bit the proverbial dust. Those players with real cran came back and kept trying until their PCs suceeded or else the DM grew weary of running the module. As I have mentioned, in my group only Rob Kuntz managed to get to the end of the advbenture, Robilar losing all of his orc flunkies at the onset, in the initial passage. When he found the tomb of the demi-lich Robilar scooped all the magical treasures he could into his bag of holding and ran off leaving the demi-lich hanginf, as it were. Tenser retreated from the perilous place, as did Terik.

Of course Mordenkainen never entered the place, but had he, the wily wizard would surely have come with his most potent associates, and brought plenty of powerful magic along. As with most other dedicated players, I too am averse to losing my favirite and long-luved PC.

Cheers,
Gary