Exowombs, do they exist? Options

[Sengir]

Ever since the 1st Edition BBB, Shadowrun has had to possibility to have a force-grown clone kept on ice as a source of replacement organs. Also since that day, those wimps have not had developed brains, elegantly dodging meta questions of clone armies and in-character ethical outrage.

But what if neither cloning nor force-growing are required? Is there anything canonical about "just" maturing an embryo the standard nine months in a vat, so that Mrs. upper exec can raise a good new citizen without all the loss of productivity from a pregnancy?

[Beaumis]

I don't know of any mentions but it would suprise me if there were any. Considering the setting, I doubt there'd be research into this because it's not a profitable venue. Given the gap between rich and poor, it's that much cheaper to just hire a surrogate, dodging the research cost and the ethical questions in the process.

[kzt]

If you think they are needed/desirable for your game, then sure. It's certainly reasonable they exist or that they don't, so go ahead.

[Sengir]

If you think they are needed/desirable for your game, then sure.

Obviously, but I was wondering whether there is something canonical on it. The closest thing I found would be the "Escaped Clone" quality, but IMO it sounds more like force-grown wimps accidentally becoming sapient from time to time.


@Beaumis: Hire some flea-ridden person to carry the next generation of The Company's children? That's crazy talk
(Also, my point is that the research into life support and vat-growing stuff should already be mostly there, it's just a question of putting 2 and 2 together)

[kzt]

@Beaumis: Hire some flea-ridden person to carry the next generation of The Company's children? That's crazy talk

It's amazing what a little pesticide and a lot soap and water will do. Especially when combined with 24 hour video surveillance and a biomonitor to keep them from making any further poor life choices. It's a highly cost effective approach, and when properly handled often results in a very effective approach to recruit loyal employees.

[rythymhack]

In fluff terms, probably available (that is I can see it being a plot point in fiction). In game? No way and here's why. Cultured bioware is grown from cloned tissue. That makes a situation where you could (in theory) grow a body with the bioware already in it as it develops. Great for a plot device for a corporate sponsored mystic adept who wants to secretly grow an army of biozombies. Can of worms for the game.

[Wakshaani]

I've personally run a characetr who was a clone of a corporate head, topped up with bioware and other assorted goodies, skillwire'd up, then freed by the "Clone liberation army" who break into research labs and turn teh clones loose/destroy the unready. I've always assumed that an exo-womb existed, simply because, well, clones. You already have vatjobs, so the vats themselves are established, and clones are a thing. It's a minor hop, skip, and a jump from there.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rf0I5tjfXbg/SLGe...Picture%2B7.png

Hank! Dean! What are you DOING in there?!

[hermit]

In game? No way and here's why. Cultured bioware is grown from cloned tissue. That makes a situation where you could (in theory) grow a body with the bioware already in it as it develops. Great for a plot device for a corporate sponsored mystic adept who wants to secretly grow an army of biozombies. Can of worms for the game.

Actually, they've been in the game ever since ShadowTech, the book that introduced the Blank clones. They've also been used in fluff a lot - it's essentially what the Vats are so many bioware, replacement limbs and organs come out of.

As for abuse of the idea: There's a quality for that, at least in SR4. It's not such a good deal. Plus, it still costs essence, the cost is only lessened. Between this, Type O, and Biocompatibility, you can bioware a character an awful lot though.

[Sengir]

Actually, they've been in the game ever since ShadowTech, the book that introduced the Blank clones.

First Edition BBB, p. 145: DW platinum contracts include a "donor counterpart", ready three months after signing.

In fluff terms, probably available (that is I can see it being a plot point in fiction). In game? No way and here's why. Cultured bioware is grown from cloned tissue. That makes a situation where you could (in theory) grow a body with the bioware already in it as it develops. Great for a plot device for a corporate sponsored mystic adept who wants to secretly grow an army of biozombies. Can of worms for the game.

Since force-growing does not work if the subject shall have a working brain, you'd wait ~16 years them to mature, while the "preinstalled" bioware is growing more out of date. To make matters worse, the clones will have the same chance of being Awakened as anybody else, maybe slightly higher.



Anyway, lookie what I found in Augmentation, page 53:

One disturbing trend that has received little press so far are the corporate programs to raise entire generations of children that were created by in vitro fertilization and grown in an artificial womb, just as clones are. Proteus, for example, just graduated an entire class of genegineered metahumans whose only mother has been the corp. Creepy.
> Nephrine

[hermit]

Oh, so Sandmann's story has found it's way into American canon.

[psychophipps]

No idea it was canon, but my Grrl Scout hit teams just got a Hugh Jass boost.

[Sengir]

Oh, so Sandmann's story has found it's way into American canon.

In case you mean Schockwellen/Shockwaves, Proteus had a lot more stuff in that story. Like force-grown clones which could be rigged, something allegedly impossible due to the lack of neural development in the accelerated growth process.


Just letting an embryo grow in an artificial uterus is simple stuff in comparison and should not require any of Proteus' tech. If growing a clone in three months is commonly available since 2050, simply letting a regular fertilized egg grow for nine months without any acceleration (and accordingly, without the side effects) is nothing technologically exciting.

[hermit]

Like force-grown clones which could be rigged, something allegedly impossible due to the lack of neural development in the accelerated growth process.

Well, that should be doable with a biodrone harness thing, it's even alluded to in the fluff. I doubt it's very practical, but Proteus certainly put the Evil Corporate Nazidom before the bottom line.

Just letting an embryo grow in an artificial uterus is simple stuff in comparison and should not require any of Proteus' tech. If growing a clone in three months is commonly available since 2050, simply letting a regular fertilized egg grow for nine months without any acceleration (and accordingly, without the side effects) is nothing technologically exciting.

I wonder how much you could speed up the baby growth process though - not to get a viable adult clone in 4 months, but a viable baby in 6 or something. I think this hasn't ever been covered, but it should be widely popular in Shadowrun, given pregnancy there is equal to being thunder-hammered with 15 BP worth of mental illness ...

[Wakshaani]

Anyway, lookie what I found in Augmentation, page 53:

You ave no idea how much I want to run with some of that. There are ... ideas ...

[hermit]

You can build on the Teiko Ikemoto adventure, which has even more seriously freaky stuff.

[Wakshaani]

You can build on the Teiko Ikemoto adventure, which has even more seriously freaky stuff.

Yeah, I'm really not sure what the deal is with that. She's still around, at least as of Dirty Tricks, with her new corporation, but her tech curve seems rather far beyond what's normal for Shadowrun. I don't think we'll start to see more like her being churned out anytime soon.

[hermit]

Vat-grown functional brains that do not die within a year are a relative novelty in SR, even by SR4.

[Neraph]

I wonder how much you could speed up the baby growth process though - not to get a viable adult clone in 4 months, but a viable baby in 6 or something. I think this hasn't ever been covered, but it should be widely popular in Shadowrun, given pregnancy there is equal to being thunder-hammered with 15 BP worth of mental illness ...

Well, my Platoon Sergeant was born about 3.5 months early, so even a 5.5 month baby currently (well, technically about 30 years ago) can be strong enough to be a United States Marine, even with partially-formed lungs.

[Sengir]

Well, that should be doable with a biodrone harness thing, it's even alluded to in the fluff.

The fluff says that Stirrup Interfaces in wimps are not possible, because "vat-grown neural and limbic systems just don’t develop to the point required" (Augmentation, 142). So Proteus was more advanced than the commonly known SOTA -- or that piece of fluff was ignored, but advances in growing wimps would fit with Proteus' other research.

[TaiChara]

There is also a reference in the 4e Corporate Guide to female corp execs actually using wimps as surrogate wombs for their children, just to double down on the potential wtf factor.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There is also a reference in the 4e Corporate Guide to female corp execs actually using wimps as surrogate wombs for their children, just to double down on the potential wtf factor.

Having children AND keeping your figure... what's not to like?

[hermit]

Using wimps as exo-wombs (well, more like axolotl tanks really) ... okay, that idea is conclusive.

[Wakshaani]

There is also a reference in the 4e Corporate Guide to female corp execs actually using wimps as surrogate wombs for their children, just to double down on the potential wtf factor.

Well, there's issues with clones possibly having neural issues or ill-formed brains, possibly even "DOlly the SHeep" early-aging issues. Buuuut, if teh reproductive systems are functional, then, well, you have an option.

I know MUCH further back, there was talk of test-tube babies being implanted into the poor, such as an Ork on the cleaning crew or a new member of teh secretarial pool, so that a child could be had without taking time out of an exec's busy day. Good opportunity for promotion on the surrogate's side (Well, if Human), a nice little extra cash bump, and the exec doesn't have to deal with all that, ugh, biology.

[hermit]

Well, there's issues with clones possibly having neural issues or ill-formed brains, possibly even "DOlly the SHeep" early-aging issues. Buuuut, if teh reproductive systems are functional, then, well, you have an option.

Well, the Dolly problem should be solved by SR, given that playable clones are a thing. But it probably doesn't need to be resolved for a wimp. So axolotl tanks are a thing, too. I need to keep that in mind for one of my disturbing runs.

I know MUCH further back, there was talk of test-tube babies being implanted into the poor, such as an Ork on the cleaning crew or a new member of teh secretarial pool, so that a child could be had without taking time out of an exec's busy day. Good opportunity for promotion on the surrogate's side (Well, if Human), a nice little extra cash bump, and the exec doesn't have to deal with all that, ugh, biology.

Surrogate mother agencies for profitare a thing in the real world, as highlighted by the baby Gammy case. It only makes sense in the context of some SR corps - namely, the more ruthless, western-oriented or transhumanist - I can see that with Aztechnology, MCT, NeoNET, Evo, and Ares, not necessarily with the more spiritual corps like Shiawase, Wuxing, and Horizon, or archconservatives like Renraku and SK. Still, it fits into the setting, and if written properly, can be a nice, grisly addition to the game world.

[Udoshi]

Vat-grown functional brains that do not die within a year are a relative novelty in SR, even by SR4.

The fluff says that Stirrup Interfaces in wimps are not possible, because "vat-grown neural and limbic systems just don’t develop to the point required" (Augmentation, 142). So Proteus was more advanced than the commonly known SOTA -- or that piece of fluff was ignored, but advances in growing wimps would fit with Proteus' other research.

Not really. This is a misconception based on the idea that wimps are the ONLY means of cloning available in shadowrun; which is false.
It is merely the fastest. More regular(as of today) cloning methods are capable of producing viable brains, people, and all the neurons that entails.

Growing a full body from cell samples takes eight weeks. Thats two months. That's shorter than an actual pregnancy. Shadowrun forced-growth stuff is freakishly fast when you actually look at HOW fast wimps are grown. (augmentation 127)

Then you go over to the cyborg section and notice, hey, wait, you can kid brains to make cyborg super soldiers who live their entire lives in VR - at the normal metabolic rate. (aug 162) You can bet there's gonna be some medical tricks to make em mature faster, but 'faster' and 'wimp fast' are two entirely different ballgames.
EIGHT WEEKS. (On a side note, you can grow a spinal cord in six, and that seems to be the limiting factor - organs and limbs are 3-4 weeks)

But wait! there's more.

If you have the right facilities, you can halve all the growth times.

Four weeks to make a flesh sac. No wonder it doesn't have a brain.