Ever since the 1st Edition BBB, Shadowrun has had to possibility to have a force-grown clone kept on ice as a source of replacement organs. Also since that day, those wimps have not had developed brains, elegantly dodging meta questions of clone armies and in-character ethical outrage.

But what if neither cloning nor force-growing are required? Is there anything canonical about "just" maturing an embryo the standard nine months in a vat, so that Mrs. upper exec can raise a good new citizen without all the loss of productivity from a pregnancy?

I don't know of any mentions but it would suprise me if there were any. Considering the setting, I doubt there'd be research into this because it's not a profitable venue. Given the gap between rich and poor, it's that much cheaper to just hire a surrogate, dodging the research cost and the ethical questions in the process.

If you think they are needed/desirable for your game, then sure. It's certainly reasonable they exist or that they don't, so go ahead.

Obviously, but I was wondering whether there is something canonical on it. The closest thing I found would be the "Escaped Clone" quality, but IMO it sounds more like force-grown wimps accidentally becoming sapient from time to time.


@Beaumis: Hire some flea-ridden person to carry the next generation of The Company's children? That's crazy talk
(Also, my point is that the research into life support and vat-growing stuff should already be mostly there, it's just a question of putting 2 and 2 together)

It's amazing what a little pesticide and a lot soap and water will do. Especially when combined with 24 hour video surveillance and a biomonitor to keep them from making any further poor life choices. It's a highly cost effective approach, and when properly handled often results in a very effective approach to recruit loyal employees.

In fluff terms, probably available (that is I can see it being a plot point in fiction). In game? No way and here's why. Cultured bioware is grown from cloned tissue. That makes a situation where you could (in theory) grow a body with the bioware already in it as it develops. Great for a plot device for a corporate sponsored mystic adept who wants to secretly grow an army of biozombies. Can of worms for the game.

I've personally run a characetr who was a clone of a corporate head, topped up with bioware and other assorted goodies, skillwire'd up, then freed by the "Clone liberation army" who break into research labs and turn teh clones loose/destroy the unready. I've always assumed that an exo-womb existed, simply because, well, clones. You already have vatjobs, so the vats themselves are established, and clones are a thing. It's a minor hop, skip, and a jump from there.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rf0I5tjfXbg/SLGe...Picture%2B7.png

Hank! Dean! What are you DOING in there?!

Actually, they've been in the game ever since ShadowTech, the book that introduced the Blank clones. They've also been used in fluff a lot - it's essentially what the Vats are so many bioware, replacement limbs and organs come out of.

As for abuse of the idea: There's a quality for that, at least in SR4. It's not such a good deal. Plus, it still costs essence, the cost is only lessened. Between this, Type O, and Biocompatibility, you can bioware a character an awful lot though.

First Edition BBB, p. 145: DW platinum contracts include a "donor counterpart", ready three months after signing.



Since force-growing does not work if the subject shall have a working brain, you'd wait ~16 years them to mature, while the "preinstalled" bioware is growing more out of date. To make matters worse, the clones will have the same chance of being Awakened as anybody else, maybe slightly higher.



Anyway, lookie what I found in Augmentation, page 53:

Oh, so Sandmann's story has found it's way into American canon.

No idea it was canon, but my Grrl Scout hit teams just got a Hugh Jass boost.

In case you mean Schockwellen/Shockwaves, Proteus had a lot more stuff in that story. Like force-grown clones which could be rigged, something allegedly impossible due to the lack of neural development in the accelerated growth process.


Just letting an embryo grow in an artificial uterus is simple stuff in comparison and should not require any of Proteus' tech. If growing a clone in three months is commonly available since 2050, simply letting a regular fertilized egg grow for nine months without any acceleration (and accordingly, without the side effects) is nothing technologically exciting.

Well, that should be doable with a biodrone harness thing, it's even alluded to in the fluff. I doubt it's very practical, but Proteus certainly put the Evil Corporate Nazidom before the bottom line.


I wonder how much you could speed up the baby growth process though - not to get a viable adult clone in 4 months, but a viable baby in 6 or something. I think this hasn't ever been covered, but it should be widely popular in Shadowrun, given pregnancy there is equal to being thunder-hammered with 15 BP worth of mental illness ...

You ave no idea how much I want to run with some of that. There are ... ideas ...

You can build on the Teiko Ikemoto adventure, which has even more seriously freaky stuff.

Yeah, I'm really not sure what the deal is with that. She's still around, at least as of Dirty Tricks, with her new corporation, but her tech curve seems rather far beyond what's normal for Shadowrun. I don't think we'll start to see more like her being churned out anytime soon.

Vat-grown functional brains that do not die within a year are a relative novelty in SR, even by SR4.

Well, my Platoon Sergeant was born about 3.5 months early, so even a 5.5 month baby currently (well, technically about 30 years ago) can be strong enough to be a United States Marine, even with partially-formed lungs.

The fluff says that Stirrup Interfaces in wimps are not possible, because "vat-grown neural and limbic systems just don’t develop to the point required" (Augmentation, 142). So Proteus was more advanced than the commonly known SOTA -- or that piece of fluff was ignored, but advances in growing wimps would fit with Proteus' other research.

There is also a reference in the 4e Corporate Guide to female corp execs actually using wimps as surrogate wombs for their children, just to double down on the potential wtf factor.

Having children AND keeping your figure... what's not to like?

Using wimps as exo-wombs (well, more like axolotl tanks really) ... okay, that idea is conclusive.

Well, there's issues with clones possibly having neural issues or ill-formed brains, possibly even "DOlly the SHeep" early-aging issues. Buuuut, if teh reproductive systems are functional, then, well, you have an option.

I know MUCH further back, there was talk of test-tube babies being implanted into the poor, such as an Ork on the cleaning crew or a new member of teh secretarial pool, so that a child could be had without taking time out of an exec's busy day. Good opportunity for promotion on the surrogate's side (Well, if Human), a nice little extra cash bump, and the exec doesn't have to deal with all that, ugh, biology.

Well, the Dolly problem should be solved by SR, given that playable clones are a thing. But it probably doesn't need to be resolved for a wimp. So axolotl tanks are a thing, too. I need to keep that in mind for one of my disturbing runs.


Surrogate mother agencies for profitare a thing in the real world, as highlighted by the baby Gammy case. It only makes sense in the context of some SR corps - namely, the more ruthless, western-oriented or transhumanist - I can see that with Aztechnology, MCT, NeoNET, Evo, and Ares, not necessarily with the more spiritual corps like Shiawase, Wuxing, and Horizon, or archconservatives like Renraku and SK. Still, it fits into the setting, and if written properly, can be a nice, grisly addition to the game world.

Not really. This is a misconception based on the idea that wimps are the ONLY means of cloning available in shadowrun; which is false.
It is merely the fastest. More regular(as of today) cloning methods are capable of producing viable brains, people, and all the neurons that entails.

Growing a full body from cell samples takes eight weeks. Thats two months. That's shorter than an actual pregnancy. Shadowrun forced-growth stuff is freakishly fast when you actually look at HOW fast wimps are grown. (augmentation 127)

Then you go over to the cyborg section and notice, hey, wait, you can kid brains to make cyborg super soldiers who live their entire lives in VR - at the normal metabolic rate. (aug 162) You can bet there's gonna be some medical tricks to make em mature faster, but 'faster' and 'wimp fast' are two entirely different ballgames.
EIGHT WEEKS. (On a side note, you can grow a spinal cord in six, and that seems to be the limiting factor - organs and limbs are 3-4 weeks)

But wait! there's more.

If you have the right facilities, you can halve all the growth times.

Four weeks to make a flesh sac. No wonder it doesn't have a brain.

We were explicitly talking about

...at least rigged in a limited fashion. That is what Proteus' board of directors consisted of (in 2063), therefore they were clearly ahead of the tech curve...which was kinda the whole point of Proteus

You seemed to miss the point, though - there's clearly a proven middle ground of neurologically enabled(and thus riggable) speed-grown clones, somewhere between wimps and actual people.

Its not so much ahead of the tech curve, as someone asking "well how much do we need to slow this down to make it work?"

Neither hermit nor me denied that middle way exists. We were simply talking about a completely different scenario, which was very much supposed to be a "freakish biotech experiments" thing...

Actually, writing Cyborgs Unveiled, with the research into cyborgs and the means to get brains for them, got me thinking of stuff to do with Yuakut Shuffle.
I mean, Shadowrun has prenatal genetic optimization; and Russia in SR is a etatist state stuck in an economical hellhole after losing the Border Wars, the First Euro War, and then its most resource-rich provinces. Surely it has to have demographic problems (like it did in the RL 90ies).
Now, what's stopping the state from producing as many citizens as it needs, with the genetic optimizations it needs, when there are both artificial wombs and, if need be, surrogate mothers available? The adoption system for the children left right after birth is already in place, so some of the children produced that way can go there, and the rest of them can go to specialized orphanages that'd make whatever specialists needed out of them, preparing them for universities, Cadet Corps, or whatever else.
The genes for the project have to come from somewhere, though, and while a state can force its own citizens into donating genetic materials should they reach some notable achievements (like getting a PhD, or winning some sports competitions, etcetera), ideally it'd want genes from abroad as well. And this is where the runners come in.

Someone has to pay for this. If the state is broke, it cannot. Maybe Evo would provide, though, being both a russian corporation and very heavily into all things weird and Eclipse Phase. Actually, yes, that could work.


EVOculture Schools for the Gifted! Evo gives Russia privileged access to clone farms and genetic manipulations, works with the High Soviet (it was High Soviet again in SR, wasn't it?) to pick and design children according to Russia's needs, and gets a massive return payment in the future, when Russia is effectively their subsidiary, because their very existence as a people and system is tied to Evo's genecrafted children and whatever methods of control they secretly installed.


While I think prisoners and Evo citizens might supply the bulk, stealing DNA samples from exceptional individuals is a nice, crazy hook for a corp campaign.

A broke state is still a gigantic entity with massive resources. I don't think producing children is all that expensive - but you're right, an arrangement with EVO is even more sinister and dystopic. EVO could use a good injection of undercover vileness.
Yeah, I think I'm going to include this, at least as shadowtalk.

It's actually National Supreme Soviet (Soviet meaning Council, I presume, and having little to do with the usage a century prior - although in that case it actually meant the same, duh).

Prisoners? Why would you want to produce new citizens with broken genetics coming from the outcasts? On the contrary, you'd want the best and the brightest for your country's shining future! One vision! One purpose! You know the drill!

The good thing about that hook is that it allows for runs widely different in complexity. Getting gene data from a world-class sportsman can be as easy as some razorgirl seducing him; getting the same from a megacorp top manager would be a much more perilous undertaking. At the same time, the whole arrangement can give the runners contacts with the GRU, which means a ticket to the international intelligence-level runs.

Hmmm, I could've sworn I've already written the bulk of it in the Moscow chapter, a good few months ago. Must've been in my notes at work, then, and forgot to synchronize it? Oh ffs.

Well, with Evo and RUssia, you'd probably have a two-tier structure. The top is aimed at the ruling class and wealthy, where children can be genecrafted and perfected, producing a generation of improved humanity to be the next leaders. Then there's the secondary level, scouring the slums and barrens of RUssia, scooping up street trash and putting them through a battery of tests. Most wash out but were dregs *anyway*, so no big loss, but some gems shine through the rough handling and get molded into the corporate family, shaped and molded into loyal soldiers.

Too complex and expensive to run a gauntlet like that. A state works via regulatory means. Why hunt for the best genes, when you can simply make everyone with a PhD donate theirs at getting one? Same goes for soldiers: they can always get the genes off the ones getting an award; then again, there are always high-profile runners available (like the ones on UGB or MVD retainer), if you're looking for that streetwise set. Similarly, a state can afford playing the long game. Why indoctrinate the dregs of the society, with their negative experiences, when you can grow children in orphanages, fully controlling what they see and indoctrinating them from birth, essentially? When a man has nothing to compare his life against, he's sure to remain loyal - after all, that's how RL patriotism mostly works.

It's not like there are no ways to scour the barrens for potential talent, though. A conscription-based army is one such way; just like in RL people forged their papers to appear older and healthier to get into the army and receive guaranteed full board, clothing and even medicine, the SINless can get a SIN to get in.

Given Evo's outreach to metas, sapientnon-humans and all that, I'd say they are no big fans of conventional bioligism. So more genetic variety, less "his direct ancestor was X"

I don't really think it's contradictory. I mean, a rational-acting state would want beneficial characteristics in its new citizens first, no matter what metatype they come from.

Can you provide a real-world example of a "rational-acting state"? AFAIK it's all opportunities for graft or bizarre metaphysics (like the Nazis or the commies) that drive the actions of states.

The US with its tales of "sponsoring terrorism" and "concealing WMDs" used to get international support for its invasions? China after Chairman Mao? Japan after WWII? The list goes on.

And the idea of PhD genes, criminal genes, unemployed genes and so on (aka. bioligism) is the same as the idea behind various racial inferiorities, which EVO does not seem to be a big fan of.

You see, unlike apparently the current official writers, I'm not a big fan of just handing the readers The Truth, as it is. Nobody has a good reason to know all the dark secrets of the corps, much less spill the beans on the data havens.
This is why this goes into shadowtalk coming from a conspiracy theorist, and the readers can decide whether Evo is actually into this stuff, or it's all just deranged ramblings. You think this goes against their ideology and that's fine (and it's not like corps don't do anything that's going against their declared ideology), I think Evo desperately needs skeletons in its closet to ruin the whole "corp as a force for good" drek that's been floating all over the fourth edition.
Since I don't have to maintain continuity with this down the line, there isn't even a reason to collapse this quantum wave function ever.

The thing is, biologism isn't illegal or unethical. It's a non-science like phrenology, which only gets upheld when it serves to confirm the preconceived notions of somebody. Evo does not have these notions, and they have quite a good gasp of genetics. So why would they engage in that?

I'm all for giving corps plenty of skeletons, but make it something evil, not that Ares rifle which fell apart (whatever the name was).

The very notion of producing citizens by governmental order with the genetic optimizations ordered and whatever else changes the corp wants is evil enough. The way the genetic stock is gathered hardly changes much (and let's not even get into the discussion whether intellect is somehow not an inheritable trait, whether all Olympics-winning runners being from one region is a coincidence, and why does having at least one parent with a university degree correlate so much with the probability of getting one yourself).

Hmm, I'd say the truly evil part would be the indoctrination of the subjects, wherever they came from. With SR gene tech, you could give the children augmented muscles or Synaptic Boosters, but nothing that actually makes them do the bidding of their nefarious overlords.



Correct question would be: Does the academic degree of the biological parents make a difference if the upbringing changes? Because your parents obviously impart far more than just their genes

Actually, while I can't really remember anything that'd allow precisely genecrafting children to be servile, corporate brainwashing has always been around, and producing children by demand gives you at least nine months to play with PAB units, psychotropic programming, implanted triggers, and same such. So if they want to get the results, they have all the tools in order.
Also, as for me, the very notion of turning children into a traded commodity oversteps the vileness edge.

Uh-huh, and being from a particular region means your parents have the unique know-how on how to make you a world-class runner?
We can discuss genetic vs social factors in human development for a while, but, first, it's pretty obvious that the genes do play a significant role in determining your intellect, ability to focus attention etcetera, all other things even; and second, that discussion wouldn't really be appropriate for this forum, now would it. This is why I suggested not getting into it to begin with.

However, Fatum, it might be a touch unfair to open a can of worms and then say, "No, no. You can't touch that!"

Minding that so far Sengir's argument has essentially been "biologism is bullshit and everyone knows that", I somewhat doubt a productive discussion can result. :ь

If you can lock the children into a North Korean parallel world, who needs any of that fancy stuff


Intelligence is heritable, meaning a certain amount of the variance seen among people out there can be tacked to genetic factors. We were not talking about intelligence or the presence of certain gene markers, however. We were talking about the claim that what people did with their lives is a sign of their genetic lineage, which is a clear misappropriation of genetics.

A moderately intelligent academic's niche interest may suddenly become the Next Big Thing and earn him worldwide renown, without any exceptional genes. "Right time, right place" is very much factor in academics, too. Meanwhile, some kid with all the intelligence genes assembled grows terminally bored at school, starts skipping class with the wrong people, and embarks on the usual career of petty vandalism, drugs, drug crime...

You can never be too sure. An extra safeguard is always handy to have, especially for control freaks like governments and megacorps.

A human society is just an environment like any other, and mental traits are just genetic traits like any other. Given that high intellect (developed ability to find patterns, etc) is a favourable trait, it increases the chance of success in certain fields, all other factors even.
So you are much more likely to find people with genetic propensity for high intellect among successful academics, same as you're more likely to find people with genetic propensity for bravery among people awarded the highest decorations, etcetera. Yes, these are all statistical chances, not certainties, but why should someone set out to produce tens if not hundreds of thousands of new children ignore these chances?

And assuming that all non-genetic factors are even is just as unrealistic as assuming that all genetic factors are even.



Oh dear...

Non-genetic factors are never even in non-human-made environments and for creatures other than humans, either, but statistical survival of the fittest still works.

As if it's any more of an oversimplification than "genetic propensity for high intellect".