Immunity to Normal Weapons, Hardened Armour rule clarification Options

[Mystweaver]

I've played for years in SR3 and recently moved to SR4 which I am for the first time GMing.

I just want to clarify the Hardened Armour rules and how it applies normally and to find out if people apply it differently to spirits.

I get that a Spirit has twice its force as Hardened Armour.

I think the following scenarios are correct. Could someone please confirm.

Spirit Force 5
Gets hit with an assault rifle burst that starts at 6P vB-1
With zero net successes, the damage is 8P vs 9 Hardened Armour - Don't Roll Damage Bounces
With one net success, the damage is 9P vs 9 Hardened Armour - Don't Roll Damage Bounces
With two or more successes the damage is 10P or more vs 9 Hardened armour - Roll damage resistance test for spirit.

Same thing for a vehicle.

If said above assault rifle had AV ammo in it a single shot from the assault rifle starts at 6P vB-5 and as such the spirit will always roll damage resistance (as its hardened armour is reduced to 5).

So that's how I see it as RAW... but I'm I right?

Another example:
Spirit Force 8
Same assault rifle with regular rounds - full auto does 15P vB-1. With one next success - the spirit is in trouble?
(Likewise full auto against what I considered to be decent powered spirits (force 4-6) obliterates them.

[bannockburn]

With zero net successes, the damage is 8P vs 9 Hardened Armour - Don't Roll Damage Bounces

Nope, not quite. 0 Net hits = no roll necessary, hardened armour or not.

With one net success, the damage is 9P vs 9 Hardened Armour - Don't Roll Damage Bounces

Assuming a narrow burst, that's correct.

With two or more successes the damage is 10P or more vs 9 Hardened armour - Roll damage resistance test for spirit.

Same thing for a vehicle.

Right. With Body+Armour.

If said above assault rifle had AV ammo in it a single shot from the assault rifle starts at 6P vB-5 and as such the spirit will always roll damage resistance (as its hardened armour is reduced to 5).

So that's how I see it as RAW... but I'm I right?

Sure, that's how it works.

Spirit Force 8
Same assault rifle with regular rounds - full auto does 15P vB-1. With one next success - the spirit is in trouble?
(Likewise full auto against what I considered to be decent powered spirits (force 4-6) obliterates them.

Yes. FA bursts kill most spirits dead, but do remember that they'll still have a pretty decent dice pool for resisting the damage.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except that Burst Damage is not added prior to the Hardened Armor vs. Damage Comparison.
If the base Damage (+/- AP) + Net hits does not exceed Hardened Armor, then there is no damage at all. Burst Fire Damage is added AFTER the comparison (and only if the comparison damage exceeds Hardened Armor). If an Assault Rifle Round won't bypass the armor, 10 of them still won't bypass the armor.

[Glyph]

Immunity to normal weapons also gives half the immunity rating (round up) in automatic successes. Which is a bit overkill, in my opinion...

[pbangarth]

I think that's in SR5, Glyph.

[Glyph]

Sorry, didn't look closely enough, thought it was an SR5 tag.

[Draco18s]

Same thing for a vehicle.

Not quite. Vehicles are simply immune to stun. It's not the same thing, but mechanically works out to the same thing. If for some reason stun would matter to a vehicle (for example, a rigger is rigging it) then you would have to roll.

[Mystweaver]

Except that Burst Damage is not added prior to the Hardened Armor vs. Damage Comparison.
If the base Damage (+/- AP) + Net hits does not exceed Hardened Armor, then there is no damage at all. Burst Fire Damage is added AFTER the comparison (and only if the comparison damage exceeds Hardened Armor). If an Assault Rifle Round won't bypass the armor, 10 of them still won't bypass the armor.

Doesn't that mean also though that a light pistol - with enough skill can get through tank armour? (yeah so you would need a ton of hits but still).

I'm glad you pointed out that the burst fire/full auto damage does not come into play in the calculation. Not sure it is backed up anywhere though.

All it states in SR4A under hardened armour is: "If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test"

Not sure if I like the idea of AV rounds working against spirits. (Why would a spirits armour care about the material/shape of a bullet - its not about physics)

Is there any fluff anywhere that might back up the use of some sort of specialist dual natured round (maybe it has a core that is made from a dual natured plant, or even mineral/gemstone/metal (like orichalcum))?

Edit: Actually the Orcihalcum idea is a good one... being so hideously expensive I'm thinking if the characters do want some - we would be talking at least 100yen per bullet (actual Orichalcum content is very minimal - like a spek of it in the core of the round). Also being dual natured, it would pose a problem if the characters are walking around with the stuff and go through astral barriers... could be quite amusing.

[bannockburn]

Except that Burst Damage is not added prior to the Hardened Armor vs. Damage Comparison.
If the base Damage (+/- AP) + Net hits does not exceed Hardened Armor, then there is no damage at all. Burst Fire Damage is added AFTER the comparison (and only if the comparison damage exceeds Hardened Armor). If an Assault Rifle Round won't bypass the armor, 10 of them still won't bypass the armor.

Good point. I forgot about that.

I'm glad you pointed out that the burst fire/full auto damage does not come into play in the calculation. Not sure it is backed up anywhere though.

You'll find that one on p. 153, Core Rulebook, under Narrow Bursts:

Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.

[Mystweaver]

Thanks for the contribution (I've just found and read other posts about this - they go into insane detail and opinionated RAW).

I'm happy with the above.

I'm going to allow AV to remain awesome - even vs spirits (adding another type of round = more made up rubbish to remember and I can't be arsed).

Burst & Full auto does not effect the calculation - net hits do.

This means the Pistol adept in the party has as good a chance as the Assault rifle Cybermonkey at taking down Spirits.

[bannockburn]

This means the Pistol adept in the party has as good a chance as the Assault rifle Cybermonkey at taking down Spirits.

Not exactly.
Overcoming the defenses is maybe even easier with the pistol (DV 6, AP -2, for the Warhawk, e.g.), but the additional narrow burst damage after overcoming it helps out greatly.
My tip: Be sparse with spirits of F6+, if there isn't a mage or someone with a weapon focus in the party. And even then, remember that spirits also throw a good number of dice in attack and defense.
Furthermore, think in advance about how you want to handle tasers and SnS ammo. These are weirdly very good against spirits, by RAW.

[Mystweaver]

Furthermore, think in advance about how you want to handle tasers and SnS ammo. These are weirdly very good against spirits, by RAW.

How so (why does electricity from tasers work - its still a normal weapon)? What is SnS ammo?

[bannockburn]

How so (why does electricity from tasers work - its still a normal weapon)? What is SnS ammo?

SnS = Stick 'n' Shock. Basically taser ammunition.

Both work as normal weapons, and don't ignore the hardened armour.
However, as they're electric, they halve the armour, making it way easier to actually damage the spirit.

[Mystweaver]

SnS = Stick 'n' Shock. Basically taser ammunition.

Both work as normal weapons, and don't ignore the hardened armour.
However, as they're electric, they halve the armour, making it way easier to actually damage the spirit.

Doesn't acid also halve armour? So a capsule round with acid in might also work?

[bannockburn]

Probably, but harder to get than both (with a rating 6 acid), and more expensive.

[Rad]

To my mind, having Stick-n-Shock be so effective against spirits does make a certain kind of sense--you're using elemental energy against them rather than the mass of a bullet and raw inertia. I can see that having more of a disruptive effect than pure physical force.

Ironically, a flamethrower would also be effective because of the halved DV. Gives kill it with fire a whole new meaning.

[Mystweaver]

To my mind, having Stick-n-Shock be so effective against spirits does make a certain kind of sense--you're using elemental energy against them rather than the mass of a bullet and raw inertia. I can see that having more of a disruptive effect than pure physical force.

Ironically, a flamethrower would also be effective because of the halved DV. Gives kill it with fire a whole new meaning.

What about lasers then?

Or a Fichetti Pain Inducer (Microwaves - 8S vs I/2)

[pbangarth]

With all the elemental effects, you have to apply a little handwavium. A materialized spirit is not actually made of any material, it just behaves as if it were. For example, gravity really doesn't affect them. People allow elemental attacks to affect spirits at least in part to have something to counteract what some believe is too much 'invulnerability'. What the heck, it's reasonable enough.

Microwaves work on living things because they cause water in the body to boil. There is no water in a spirit, strictly speaking, even in a water spirit.(Hey, I didn't write the book.) But in places we are told that opposing elements work especially well against each other. Like fire against water.

So should microwave energy work?

Yeah, go ahead.

[bannockburn]

You'll have to take a look at the particular weapon or damage type.
Lasers have an AP of -half, so they halve the hardened armour as well and work fine.
For the pain inducer goes the same, but since it's treated as a toxic attack, other caveats may apply.

In some cases, as pbangarth already mentioned, it's a matter of deciding if it should work or not.

[Bearclaw]

So my teams non-phys ad melee specialist, with shock gloves, can actually fight a force 6 bug spirit and have a good chance of winning?
Because shock gloves do 5S, +1 net hit = 6 vs 6 points (12 / 2) of hardened armor.
I can't believe we forgot about the 1/2 armor for elemental attacks, including electric.

[bannockburn]

You'd need 2 net hits, since you have to do more damage than the armour rating. Other than that, yes, that's a pretty good chance. Still not a cakewalk, because that bug spirit is rolling a good number of dice for both defense and damage resistance, but a better chance than trying to do it with bare hands or even a normal weapon.

[SpellBinder]

Some GMs might rule [microwave] lasers ineffective against Fire Elementals due to their Immunity To Fire (and conversely extra effective against Water Elementals due to their allergy), while no spirits are immune to electricity.

And if you're brazen enough to go hand to hand with a spirit, don't forget that anyone can do an Attack Of Will (Willpower + [Banishment], damage is Charisma + Net Hits), which completely bypasses Immunity To Normal Weapons.

[Bearclaw]

What about the called shot DV modifier?
If I'm using a Superwarhawk (6p AP2) and I'm facing a force 6 spirit, if I do the -4 dice for +4 DV, does that +4 count in calculation to see if I did damage? Seems like it would, as hits count.
But that would give that Super Warhawk a 10p + AP2, and nail a force 6 with even 1 net hit. Which would be pretty awesome.
And a great excuse to have the gunslinger character I've always wanted.

[pbangarth]

What about the called shot DV modifier?
If I'm using a Superwarhawk (6p AP2) and I'm facing a force 6 spirit, if I do the -4 dice for +4 DV, does that +4 count in calculation to see if I did damage? Seems like it would, as hits count.
But that would give that Super Warhawk a 10p + AP2, and nail a force 6 with even 1 net hit. Which would be pretty awesome.
And a great excuse to have the gunslinger character I've always wanted.

A reasonable idea. One could question the idea though, pointing out that spirits don't really have brains or heart or any other such vulnerable target. (Despite maybe having the appearance of something like a person.) What would your Called Shot target on a thing that is one mass of uniform ectoplasm?

[rythymhack]

I think it should be allowable. However, I would add a big "IF" to it. If you have a knowledge skill that may include spirits (say Magical Threats) roll to see if you remember where the most concentrated "mass" of ectoplasm tends to be in that type of spirit. If you succeed make the called shot. The die modifier can include the possible innacuracies of "tend to be"as well as the difficulty of the shot.