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Mystweaver
I've played for years in SR3 and recently moved to SR4 which I am for the first time GMing.

I just want to clarify the Hardened Armour rules and how it applies normally and to find out if people apply it differently to spirits.

I get that a Spirit has twice its force as Hardened Armour.

I think the following scenarios are correct. Could someone please confirm.

Spirit Force 5
Gets hit with an assault rifle burst that starts at 6P vB-1
With zero net successes, the damage is 8P vs 9 Hardened Armour - Don't Roll Damage Bounces
With one net success, the damage is 9P vs 9 Hardened Armour - Don't Roll Damage Bounces
With two or more successes the damage is 10P or more vs 9 Hardened armour - Roll damage resistance test for spirit.

Same thing for a vehicle.

If said above assault rifle had AV ammo in it a single shot from the assault rifle starts at 6P vB-5 and as such the spirit will always roll damage resistance (as its hardened armour is reduced to 5).

So that's how I see it as RAW... but I'm I right?

Another example:
Spirit Force 8
Same assault rifle with regular rounds - full auto does 15P vB-1. With one next success - the spirit is in trouble?
(Likewise full auto against what I considered to be decent powered spirits (force 4-6) obliterates them.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Mystweaver @ Aug 25 2014, 10:30 PM) *
With zero net successes, the damage is 8P vs 9 Hardened Armour - Don't Roll Damage Bounces

Nope, not quite. 0 Net hits = no roll necessary, hardened armour or not.

QUOTE
With one net success, the damage is 9P vs 9 Hardened Armour - Don't Roll Damage Bounces

Assuming a narrow burst, that's correct.

QUOTE
With two or more successes the damage is 10P or more vs 9 Hardened armour - Roll damage resistance test for spirit.

Same thing for a vehicle.

Right. With Body+Armour.

QUOTE
If said above assault rifle had AV ammo in it a single shot from the assault rifle starts at 6P vB-5 and as such the spirit will always roll damage resistance (as its hardened armour is reduced to 5).

So that's how I see it as RAW... but I'm I right?

Sure, that's how it works.

QUOTE
Spirit Force 8
Same assault rifle with regular rounds - full auto does 15P vB-1. With one next success - the spirit is in trouble?
(Likewise full auto against what I considered to be decent powered spirits (force 4-6) obliterates them.

Yes. FA bursts kill most spirits dead, but do remember that they'll still have a pretty decent dice pool for resisting the damage.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Except that Burst Damage is not added prior to the Hardened Armor vs. Damage Comparison.
If the base Damage (+/- AP) + Net hits does not exceed Hardened Armor, then there is no damage at all. Burst Fire Damage is added AFTER the comparison (and only if the comparison damage exceeds Hardened Armor). If an Assault Rifle Round won't bypass the armor, 10 of them still won't bypass the armor.
Glyph
Immunity to normal weapons also gives half the immunity rating (round up) in automatic successes. Which is a bit overkill, in my opinion...
pbangarth
I think that's in SR5, Glyph.
Glyph
Sorry, didn't look closely enough, thought it was an SR5 tag.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Mystweaver @ Aug 25 2014, 04:30 PM) *
Same thing for a vehicle.


Not quite. Vehicles are simply immune to stun. It's not the same thing, but mechanically works out to the same thing. If for some reason stun would matter to a vehicle (for example, a rigger is rigging it) then you would have to roll.
Mystweaver
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 26 2014, 02:05 AM) *
Except that Burst Damage is not added prior to the Hardened Armor vs. Damage Comparison.
If the base Damage (+/- AP) + Net hits does not exceed Hardened Armor, then there is no damage at all. Burst Fire Damage is added AFTER the comparison (and only if the comparison damage exceeds Hardened Armor). If an Assault Rifle Round won't bypass the armor, 10 of them still won't bypass the armor.


Doesn't that mean also though that a light pistol - with enough skill can get through tank armour? (yeah so you would need a ton of hits but still).

I'm glad you pointed out that the burst fire/full auto damage does not come into play in the calculation. Not sure it is backed up anywhere though.

All it states in SR4A under hardened armour is: "If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; donít even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test"

Not sure if I like the idea of AV rounds working against spirits. (Why would a spirits armour care about the material/shape of a bullet - its not about physics)

Is there any fluff anywhere that might back up the use of some sort of specialist dual natured round (maybe it has a core that is made from a dual natured plant, or even mineral/gemstone/metal (like orichalcum))?

Edit: Actually the Orcihalcum idea is a good one... being so hideously expensive I'm thinking if the characters do want some - we would be talking at least 100yen per bullet (actual Orichalcum content is very minimal - like a spek of it in the core of the round). Also being dual natured, it would pose a problem if the characters are walking around with the stuff and go through astral barriers... could be quite amusing.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 26 2014, 03:05 AM) *
Except that Burst Damage is not added prior to the Hardened Armor vs. Damage Comparison.
If the base Damage (+/- AP) + Net hits does not exceed Hardened Armor, then there is no damage at all. Burst Fire Damage is added AFTER the comparison (and only if the comparison damage exceeds Hardened Armor). If an Assault Rifle Round won't bypass the armor, 10 of them still won't bypass the armor.

Good point. I forgot about that.

QUOTE (Mystweaver)
I'm glad you pointed out that the burst fire/full auto damage does not come into play in the calculation. Not sure it is backed up anywhere though.


You'll find that one on p. 153, Core Rulebook, under Narrow Bursts:
QUOTE
Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.
Mystweaver
Thanks for the contribution (I've just found and read other posts about this - they go into insane detail and opinionated RAW).

I'm happy with the above.

I'm going to allow AV to remain awesome - even vs spirits (adding another type of round = more made up rubbish to remember and I can't be arsed).

Burst & Full auto does not effect the calculation - net hits do.

This means the Pistol adept in the party has as good a chance as the Assault rifle Cybermonkey at taking down Spirits.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Mystweaver @ Aug 26 2014, 11:22 AM) *
This means the Pistol adept in the party has as good a chance as the Assault rifle Cybermonkey at taking down Spirits.

Not exactly.
Overcoming the defenses is maybe even easier with the pistol (DV 6, AP -2, for the Warhawk, e.g.), but the additional narrow burst damage after overcoming it helps out greatly.
My tip: Be sparse with spirits of F6+, if there isn't a mage or someone with a weapon focus in the party. And even then, remember that spirits also throw a good number of dice in attack and defense.
Furthermore, think in advance about how you want to handle tasers and SnS ammo. These are weirdly very good against spirits, by RAW.
Mystweaver
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Aug 26 2014, 10:26 AM) *
Furthermore, think in advance about how you want to handle tasers and SnS ammo. These are weirdly very good against spirits, by RAW.


How so (why does electricity from tasers work - its still a normal weapon)? What is SnS ammo?
bannockburn
QUOTE (Mystweaver @ Aug 26 2014, 12:14 PM) *
How so (why does electricity from tasers work - its still a normal weapon)? What is SnS ammo?

SnS = Stick 'n' Shock. Basically taser ammunition.

Both work as normal weapons, and don't ignore the hardened armour.
However, as they're electric, they halve the armour, making it way easier to actually damage the spirit.
Mystweaver
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Aug 26 2014, 11:17 AM) *
SnS = Stick 'n' Shock. Basically taser ammunition.

Both work as normal weapons, and don't ignore the hardened armour.
However, as they're electric, they halve the armour, making it way easier to actually damage the spirit.


Doesn't acid also halve armour? So a capsule round with acid in might also work?
bannockburn
Probably, but harder to get than both (with a rating 6 acid), and more expensive.
Rad
To my mind, having Stick-n-Shock be so effective against spirits does make a certain kind of sense--you're using elemental energy against them rather than the mass of a bullet and raw inertia. I can see that having more of a disruptive effect than pure physical force.

Ironically, a flamethrower would also be effective because of the halved DV. Gives kill it with fire a whole new meaning.
Mystweaver
QUOTE (Rad @ Aug 27 2014, 08:42 AM) *
To my mind, having Stick-n-Shock be so effective against spirits does make a certain kind of sense--you're using elemental energy against them rather than the mass of a bullet and raw inertia. I can see that having more of a disruptive effect than pure physical force.

Ironically, a flamethrower would also be effective because of the halved DV. Gives kill it with fire a whole new meaning.


What about lasers then?

Or a Fichetti Pain Inducer (Microwaves - 8S vs I/2)
pbangarth
With all the elemental effects, you have to apply a little handwavium. A materialized spirit is not actually made of any material, it just behaves as if it were. For example, gravity really doesn't affect them. People allow elemental attacks to affect spirits at least in part to have something to counteract what some believe is too much 'invulnerability'. What the heck, it's reasonable enough.

Microwaves work on living things because they cause water in the body to boil. There is no water in a spirit, strictly speaking, even in a water spirit.(Hey, I didn't write the book.) But in places we are told that opposing elements work especially well against each other. Like fire against water.

So should microwave energy work?

Yeah, go ahead.
bannockburn
You'll have to take a look at the particular weapon or damage type.
Lasers have an AP of -half, so they halve the hardened armour as well and work fine.
For the pain inducer goes the same, but since it's treated as a toxic attack, other caveats may apply.

In some cases, as pbangarth already mentioned, it's a matter of deciding if it should work or not.
Bearclaw
So my teams non-phys ad melee specialist, with shock gloves, can actually fight a force 6 bug spirit and have a good chance of winning?
Because shock gloves do 5S, +1 net hit = 6 vs 6 points (12 / 2) of hardened armor.
I can't believe we forgot about the 1/2 armor for elemental attacks, including electric.
bannockburn
You'd need 2 net hits, since you have to do more damage than the armour rating. Other than that, yes, that's a pretty good chance. Still not a cakewalk, because that bug spirit is rolling a good number of dice for both defense and damage resistance, but a better chance than trying to do it with bare hands or even a normal weapon.
SpellBinder
Some GMs might rule [microwave] lasers ineffective against Fire Elementals due to their Immunity To Fire (and conversely extra effective against Water Elementals due to their allergy), while no spirits are immune to electricity.

And if you're brazen enough to go hand to hand with a spirit, don't forget that anyone can do an Attack Of Will (Willpower + [Banishment], damage is Charisma + Net Hits), which completely bypasses Immunity To Normal Weapons.
Bearclaw
What about the called shot DV modifier?
If I'm using a Superwarhawk (6p AP2) and I'm facing a force 6 spirit, if I do the -4 dice for +4 DV, does that +4 count in calculation to see if I did damage? Seems like it would, as hits count.
But that would give that Super Warhawk a 10p + AP2, and nail a force 6 with even 1 net hit. Which would be pretty awesome.
And a great excuse to have the gunslinger character I've always wanted.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Aug 27 2014, 12:09 PM) *
What about the called shot DV modifier?
If I'm using a Superwarhawk (6p AP2) and I'm facing a force 6 spirit, if I do the -4 dice for +4 DV, does that +4 count in calculation to see if I did damage? Seems like it would, as hits count.
But that would give that Super Warhawk a 10p + AP2, and nail a force 6 with even 1 net hit. Which would be pretty awesome.
And a great excuse to have the gunslinger character I've always wanted.

A reasonable idea. One could question the idea though, pointing out that spirits don't really have brains or heart or any other such vulnerable target. (Despite maybe having the appearance of something like a person.) What would your Called Shot target on a thing that is one mass of uniform ectoplasm?
rythymhack
I think it should be allowable. However, I would add a big "IF" to it. If you have a knowledge skill that may include spirits (say Magical Threats) roll to see if you remember where the most concentrated "mass" of ectoplasm tends to be in that type of spirit. If you succeed make the called shot. The die modifier can include the possible innacuracies of "tend to be"as well as the difficulty of the shot.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Rad @ Aug 27 2014, 03:42 AM) *
To my mind, having Stick-n-Shock be so effective against spirits does make a certain kind of sense--you're using elemental energy against them rather than the mass of a bullet and raw inertia. I can see that having more of a disruptive effect than pure physical force.

I still don't like the idea of low amperage stun effects having any affect on spirits.

High amp electrical effects, sure. Meaning stuff that inflicts physical damage.

But the low amperage shock works by causing neuromuscular dysfuction, not by inflicting actual damage. And spirits don't have muscles.


-k
Sendaz
It's the same argument one can make about electricity vs drones/vehicles.

Drones I can see getting potentially damaged and they can take secondary effects like shorting out.

Vehicles though, unless you are running some heavy amperage, it really should not even an issue. Granted most vehicles will have sufficient armor to most likely soak it, but still it can happen.

But it does allow some lower level attacks the ability to damage those sort of things that tend to grind most everything underfoot/wheel.
Cain
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Aug 27 2014, 07:59 AM) *
So my teams non-phys ad melee specialist, with shock gloves, can actually fight a force 6 bug spirit and have a good chance of winning?
Because shock gloves do 5S, +1 net hit = 6 vs 6 points (12 / 2) of hardened armor.
I can't believe we forgot about the 1/2 armor for elemental attacks, including electric.


Um... I believe Insect Spirits don't get INW, at least not Flesh Forms. That usually comes with Materialization, not Inhabitation. So you could beat them with normal swords.


QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Aug 27 2014, 09:09 AM) *
What about the called shot DV modifier?
If I'm using a Superwarhawk (6p AP2) and I'm facing a force 6 spirit, if I do the -4 dice for +4 DV, does that +4 count in calculation to see if I did damage? Seems like it would, as hits count.
But that would give that Super Warhawk a 10p + AP2, and nail a force 6 with even 1 net hit. Which would be pretty awesome.
And a great excuse to have the gunslinger character I've always wanted.

The called shot to bypass armor is SR4.5 is highly broken.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2014, 02:16 AM) *
The called shot to bypass armor is SR4.5 is highly broken.


His example did not use the Called Shot to Bypass Armor... It used the Called Shot to Increase Damage. Two very different animals indeed. smile.gif
bannockburn
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2014, 11:16 AM) *
Um... I believe Insect Spirits don't get INW, at least not Flesh Forms. That usually comes with Materialization, not Inhabitation. So you could beat them with normal swords.


Again: (Edit: Remembered the wrong thread, sorry)
QUOTE (Street Magic, p. 100 (Sidebar Inhabitation Merges))
A fleshform spirit is a dual-natured creature (p. 287, SR4), has Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 288, SR4), any of the vesselís natural and augmented abilities, and also gains the powers of Realistic Form (p. 102) and Aura Masking p. 98).
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2014, 03:16 AM) *
Um... I believe Insect Spirits don't get INW, at least not Flesh Forms. That usually comes with Materialization, not Inhabitation. So you could beat them with normal swords.
Street Magic, page 100, ITNW is explicitly listed for Flesh Forms.

Added: Ninja'd
Cain
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Sep 1 2014, 09:29 AM) *
Street Magic, page 100, ITNW is explicitly listed for Flesh Forms.

Added: Ninja'd

Oops. Read the wrong page. It's not listed in their stat block, my mistake.
SpellBinder
Yeah, easy to miss. But don't forget that you can still use an Attack Of Will on a Flesh Form, though I don't know of many street sams that'll have a high Charisma. Still, being able to bypass ITNW may be worth the reduced damage, let alone the reduced chance to just hit the fraggin' target.
Rad
QUOTE (Mystweaver @ Aug 27 2014, 01:17 AM) *
What about lasers then?

Or a Fichetti Pain Inducer (Microwaves - 8S vs I/2)


Lasers are super effective against spirits. I have fond memories of my cyberpsychosis-having, combat-chem addicted, ex-yakuza street sam carving his way through a swarm of minor horrors wielding a customized katana that had an underbarrel Ares Redline rigged to fire automatically when the blade made contact.

QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 31 2014, 02:11 PM) *
I still don't like the idea of low amperage stun effects having any affect on spirits.

High amp electrical effects, sure. Meaning stuff that inflicts physical damage.

But the low amperage shock works by causing neuromuscular dysfuction, not by inflicting actual damage. And spirits don't have muscles.


-k


It's not about raw power, it's about disrupting energy patterns. It makes sense to me that the same charge that temporarily scrambles a target's neuromuscular system can also scramble whatever energy impulses a spirit uses to maintain it's form.

QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2014, 01:16 AM) *
The called shot to bypass armor is SR4.5 is highly broken.


Especially when combined with a long shot test. rotfl.gif
Bearclaw
I had a thought.
The difference between by-passing ITNW and overcoming it is the soak.
Using that Ruger Superwarhawk +apds to have 12 points worth of armor penetration is nice except that a force 6 spirit is going to roll 18 dice to soak, right?
Body of 6 (or more) and armor = force x2 = 12.
18 dice of soak is a lot.
An attack of will or killing hands, on the other hand, only has to deal with a damage soak pool of 6. That's less.
Draco18s
That's a nice theory....

Except....

AP reduces the soak pool.
Bearclaw
Right. There is that. Cutting 18 down to 12 is a good thing.
pbangarth
Also take note that if a being has ItNW of 12 and is hit with an attack that has AP -4, it now effectively has ItNW 8. Much more likely to get around that.
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