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> Attacking Vehicles
qis
post Sep 17 2014, 07:31 AM
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Hi,

out of curiosity (and as a preparation for a fute run) I tried to simulate an attack on a Rigger. The result was quite shocking. Could you guys help me identify the mistakes?

Rigger
Driving his GMC Bulldog with hot sim on a high road and failing to spot the attacker until she is right behind him.
  • 6 REA
  • 5 INT
  • 16 BOD
  • 12 Armor
  • 3 Handling + 2 Control Rig = 5 Limit

Attacker
Adept on a motorcycle calmly deploys his Ultimax Rain Forest Carabine (from Gun H(e)aven 3) loaded with explosive rounds.
  • 4 STR
  • 6 AGI
  • 5 Automatics
  • 5 Improved Ability: Automatics (Could be substituted with Cyberware + Weapon Mods)
  • 14P Damage + 16P Explosive Rounds
  • -4 AP
  • 7 Accuracy
  • (1) RC

After deploying the weapon, the RC modifier is 1 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 1 (STR/3) and would negate a semi automatic burst modifier. Of course he'd have to make Pilot Ground Craft tests.

Opposed Test
For the sake of simplicity I ignored the surprise rolls (need to read up on those). Attacker has higher initiative.
  • Adept calls a semi automatic burst.
  • Rigger calls for Evasive Driving (Full Defense).
  • Adept rolls 6 AGI + 5 Automatics + 5 Improved Ability [LIMIT 7] = 16 Dice (6 Hits)
  • Rigger rolls 6 REA + 5 INT + 1 Hot Sim + 5 INT from Full Defense [LIMIT 5] = 17 Dice (5 Hits)

Now the rigger has to defend against 14P + 16P + 1 Net Hit = 31 Damage.
  • Rigger rolls 16 BOD + 12 Armor = 28 Dice

Let's say that the rigger is lucky and rolls 12 hits. His vehicle has 16 condition monitor boxes and would instantly die.

Shouldn't the fight be… I don't know… longer?
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Silverback
post Sep 17 2014, 11:44 AM
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Hoi,

I think you misread something about the explosive ammo. You only get +1 DV (and -1AP) from the ammunition. With the Semi-Auto-Burst you get an addition +2DV.
So the power is (14+1(Explosive Ammo)+2 (SM Burst)+1 (net hit) =18)P. The AP quality is (-4 -1 =-5).

Thus, the Rigger rolls 16 BOD + 7 Armor (12-5) = 23 dice.

And the vehicle has 12 + BOD/2 (= 20) boxes on its condition monitor (p.199 Core Book). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hope that helps,
Silverback

P.S.: Nice avatar (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Edit #2: condition monitor boxes corrected
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ltwutze
post Sep 17 2014, 11:50 AM
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Multiple things:

The Adept would take some penalties. First, he would always take -2 for firing from a moving vehicle. I wouldn't apply visibility modifiers, but if they are going fast enough, Wind should give -1 or -2 at GM's discretion. Also you could argue that either the shooting or the driving roll take -2 for being distracted, but I wouldn't count that in.
The semi-automatic Burst Recoil is compensated as you said, but you should note that it gives -2 for the riggers defense roll.

This would mean pools of 13 dice for the adpet and 15 for the rigger (16-2 (vehicle)-1(wind) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) 17-2 (SA Burst)). This will roughly equal 4.3 hits for the adpet and 5 for the rigger. For the sake of the argument, the adept still gets 6 hits, so one net hits remains for damage rolls.

When looking at damage, you had the harshest mistake in your thought: The damage of explosive rounds increases the weapon damge by one and the AP by -1, it does not give +16 physical damage. I think you mistook the explosive grenades and rounds.

This means, the Rain Forest Carbine (which already is a very powerful weapon and argued to be broken) would do 15P AP-5 Damage.

Although irrelevant in this case, whenever a vehicle gets shot, you compare the pre-soak damage with its Armor. If the damage would be converted into stun because it is lower than the armor, the vehicle doesn't take any damage at all. In this case 7 Armor (12 reduced by 5 for the AP) against 15 will clearly be physical damage.

The adepts 16 damage (15P + 1 net hit) will be rolled against with 23 soak dice ( 16 body + 12 armor - 4 AP from the weapon and - 1 AP from the ammunition)

It is recommended to not let a vehicle roll, but to buy hits 4:1. This means 5 hits if you buy soak hits, 7.6 hits on the average roll. I'll stick with the 5 hits for now, but you can always rule the players are allowed to roll instead of buying ( I assume you are the GM).

The 16 damage get soaked down to 11 and will be applied to the vehicles condition monitor. This monitor is not 16, but 20 boxes, as vehicles use 12+ half Body (rounded up) for their monitor.
11 of those 20 boxes would be filled, resulting in -3 to all further vehicle tests until it is repaired.



As you see, attacks on vehicles are a little less harsh than you thought, but still devastating. The adept can easily fire another burst at the vehicle and is likely to break it even more, if not completely. This gets a lot less likely if you use other weapons or ammunition, the combination of the RFC and explosive ammo is one of the most easily available source of high damage.

If somebody wants to correct me, please go forth. I am not actually playing a 5th Ed round at the moment but just read the pdf again. Also, if somebody wants page references, I was too lazy, sorry, but it was all taken from either the combat chapter, the ammunition listing or the Gun Heaven 3 page for the RFC.
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Jack VII
post Sep 17 2014, 12:25 PM
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There was an errata released for Missions for the RFC. It does 11P, ACC: 5, AP: -2, RC: (1). It's a lot less broken now. Also, the (IMO) more rational reading of Improved Ability would state that your limit in Improved Ability ranks is equal to 1/2 of your skill, rounded up. So if you have a 5 Automatics, you could only take 3 ranks of Improved Ability (Automatics).

Also, for your Rigger's defense test in the firearms section, the Hot-Sim bonus may be +2 (there's confusion surrounding this, some would even suggest +3). I also don't think it would be a stretch to add your Control Rig bonus of +2 to your defense tests while jumped in, at least based on what the intent of the Control Rig seems to be.
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qis
post Sep 17 2014, 03:52 PM
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Thank you very much vor looking into it.

Where do I find the increased DV for e.g. SA burst? (Tried to find it on p.179 and p.180 with no success.)

For vehicle defense tests, would you say it is reasonable to let the rigger roll his soak dice when he is in cold/hot sim and use the 1/4 rule when in AR mode?

Explosive Rounds p.433: +1DV, -1AP
Must have misread that. ^_^

Improved Ability p.309: “… The maximum improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up).”
Jach II is obviously right, especially because it is a passive ability. Still, it should sound less ambigous.

Could you explain the rigger bonuses? Unless you were talking about your own house rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
  1. On p.266 it sais +1 for hot sim. I cannot find a +2 or +3 for that.
  2. On p.199 it sais -Control Rig for Vehicle Skill + REA [Handling] tests. Defense is a REA + INT [Handling] test (not sure about the limit).

Finally, where do I find this Gun H(e)aven 3 errata?
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bannockburn
post Sep 17 2014, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE
With the Semi-Auto-Burst you get an addition +2DV.

Nope. That was back in SR4. Bursts only reduce the defender's dice pool now.

QUOTE ( @ Sep 17 2014, 05:52 PM)
Where do I find the increased DV for e.g. SA burst? (Tried to find it on p.179 and p.180 with no success.)

In SR4A (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Jack VII
post Sep 17 2014, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (qis @ Sep 17 2014, 09:52 AM) *
[*]On p.266 it says +1 for hot sim. I cannot find a +2 or +3 for that.

The confusion comes from the paragraph above it. Specifically:
QUOTE (SR5 @ p. 266)
The control rig allows you to treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in; this includes Vehicle Control Tests, Gunnery Tests, and Sensor Tests.

When you go Hot-Sim VR, you get a +2 to all Matrix Actions. The following part you quoted seems to be intended as a re-statement of the rules so you don't have to flip all over the book, but the bonus listed is +1 rather than +2. So, you have three options: 1) The two paragraphs together are poorly written and the intention is that riggers only get a +1 dice pool when in Hot-Sim. 2) There is an error in the second paragraph and it should be +2, mirroring the Hot-Sim bonus for Matrix Actions in the Matrix Chapter. 3) You get both bonuses, the +1 is in addition to the +2 that is normally granted for Hot-Sim. I tend to go with Option 2.

QUOTE (qis @ Sep 17 2014, 09:52 AM) *
[*]On p.199 it says -Control Rig for Vehicle Skill + REA [Handling] tests. Defense is a REA + INT [Handling] test (not sure about the limit).

I'm not sure on the limit there either, but it seems like it should apply given that many other vehicle related actions are limited in that manner. Suffice to say, there are many complaints about what appears to be a really rushed Rigger/Vehicle chapter. With all that said, this one is admittedly veering into House Rules. The book frequently throws around the terms vehicle tests, vehicle skills, and vehicle actions, without really clearly defining what those mean (anything from just vehicle control tests, to vehicle control tests, gunnery, and sensor tests). In an attempt to make sense of the morass, my approach is that any test you make that has a limit imposed due to a vehicle or the equipment installed on it (weapons, sensors, et al), it's considered a vehicle test and the Control Rig/VR bonus applies.

QUOTE (qis @ Sep 17 2014, 09:52 AM) *
Finally, where do I find this Gun H(e)aven 3 errata?

The errata for the Rainforest is in the Missions FAQ. Bull produces the FAQ based on planned errata, so it's probably safe to say it's going to be accurate.
Link to the Link
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Silverback
post Sep 17 2014, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Sep 17 2014, 06:10 PM) *
Nope. That was back in SR4. Bursts only reduce the defender's dice pool now.


In SR4A (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Damn! I mixed up the editions. Again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Mea culpa.
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Tarantula
post Sep 19 2014, 10:13 PM
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In Run & Gun you have the More actions! section(119). You have the Aimed Burst which trades the -2 defender penalty for a +1DV for BF weapons. You also have Double-tap which is 2 shots from a SA weapon for +1DV. Lastly, there is the Brain Blaster which is for FA which grants +2 DV. All 3 of these are complex actions. Not quite as good as SR4, but it is something.
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