Dumpshock... What happened? Options

[Moirdryd]

I'm posting this as something of a nostalgic look at the mid 3rd Edition time when I first joined DS, also as a response to a few themes in topics I've both participated in and others I've read.

I recall there be several lengthy discussions and even arguments abd flame wars back in the day, but it seemed predominantly when someone posted...
"What do you think of X rule?"
"I'm having problems with Y"
"Z character concept; need advice"
The responses would be varied, you'd get a number of bits of advice, several opinions and some suggestions to help (along with side conversations). Now it seems increasingly that two or three bits of advice get given and then it turns in to an argument about how any one of them are in fact "Wrong" and some are more "Wrong" than others with the truth being that they're not wrong at all. Any of them. Is just different uses.

We also seemed to be happy to provide game examples along with the suggestions, showing how things had worked out with one group or another and giving some insight into in play usage. Now it seems likes it's Math Hammer or RAW vs RAI and how both are Wrong. Any examples are almost automatically derided instead of provoking further examples from the tables (which gave us such a rich pool of wisdom to draw from in SR3).

When did this happen? And how? The main Shadowrun forums are usually far more helpful to people and include more options and points of view (as well as discussions of how to implement one or the other as well as a few about which works 'better' for a given conceptualisation). There are a few threads on here that manage to have debate and argument without it being "I'm right, your wrong" but they feel fewer and further between.

Or is this just me? Am I seeing something that others don't feel is a thing?

[DrZaius]

I agree.

I think it comes down to moderation. Right or wrong, the Mods on DS give the posters a freer hand. You can call that censorship of the official boards, or enablement of trolls here. Either way, the result is that this community has grown more and more caustic over the years. I don't really enter into threads on DS expecting to be pleased I started arguing over something. For the most part, I end up regretting I waded in. I imagine others have similar feelings. As more and more people have regrets about wasting their time arguing, they frequent the board less. I have no idea on traffic numbers here, but I can't imagine they've gone up that much over the years. So what remains are the same people who post a ton, complain a lot, and generally have free time to craft a long argument about why their point is correct, and you are a communist.

As to what to do about it- I just ignore it, for the most part. I very rarely weigh in anymore, and keep most of my posts to "Welcome to the Shadows". I have interest in the game and the hobby, and appreciate that freelancers have the ability and desire to post here, but I stopped looking for constructive discussions around the time of the Great Awakening.

-DrZ

[Cain]

Part of that is the fallout from the Edition wars. 4e really divided the community, like no other edition before. Several members left and founded their own forums, most of which are dead: Bulldrek, AnimalBall, and SR3R, off the top of my head. Those all drew people away from Dumpshock.

Another thing is politics. Dumpshock, originally known as the Deep Resonance, is the oldest Shadowrun forum out there. The old ShadowRN mailing list gave rise to this board, and for a long time, freelancers and game designers came here to see how the fans were doing. When the edition wars came to a head, CGL implemented the Shadowrun forums to try and steal traffic from Dumpshock. Now, freelancers and developers were encouraged to hang out there, instead of here.

So, since a lot of the yes men traffic went to those forums, the ones who stayed here were the rebels and old timers. With fewer dissenting voices, the complaining became more pronounced. Some people tried coexisting on both, but I found the party line ideology of the official forums to be too much. Others felt the negativity on Dumpshock was too much, and left for the official forums.

So, you have to consider the board culture. Here, you'll find the dissenting voices-- people who don't like the way the game is going. However, this also means you'll find people who are better at finding and demonstrating serious system flaws. Over there, they expect you to sing the CGL chorus; there's less dissent and negativity, but also less serious examination of the game's flaws.

[Critias]

We're not "encouraged" to hang out anywhere, except by the population of the various forums that are our options.

[Bull]

Actually, Bulldrek wasn't a 4th edition related thing at all. In fact, the majority of Bulldrek's existence was through 3rd edition. By the time 4th ed came out, it had largely run it's course (mostly due to the main members all having gotten older and either matured or just gotten busy with their lives). Bulldrek (and later AnimalBall) were mostly a response to us ditching the Off Topic board (Which was my sub-forum, and hence "Bulldrek") here back in like '99.

As for "encouragement", there's no encouragement from CGL management to avoid Dumpshock or use the Official Forums. We have plenty of freelancers who don't go to either, and a bunch who go to both. If anything, I'd say it's the rather caustic opinions and attitudes of a very small (but vocal) segment of the Dumpshock posters that encourage us to stay away. I'm not certain why, since it's always fun to be belittled and berated for things that we have no control over, but, ya know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

You're right about the timing of Bulldrek and Animalball, I misremembered.

However, Dumpshock was, for a long time, the biggest Shadowrun site on the web. Heck, for a long time Shadowrun.com didn't actually link to a real site, it was just a placeholder. So, if you wanted information on Shadowrun, this was the place to go.

With the resurrection of the website and the new forums, many people here thought it was a grab. The dissenters here were being very vocal, I'll admit; but some of us thought the forums were a deliberate attempt to draw attention away from the system flaws, control the information about the game, and ignore the complaints. I don't spend much time on the official forums-- I concede that they're much stricter on who says what, but that's part of the problem some people predicted. It's a pleasant enough place, in the sense that singing "Everything is Awesome!" all day long is technically pleasant.

[sk8bcn]

If anything, I'd say it's the rather caustic opinions and attitudes of a very small (but vocal) segment of the Dumpshock posters that encourage us to stay away. I'm not certain why, since it's always fun to be belittled and berated for things that we have no control over, but, ya know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's exactely what I think and what's the negative point in Dumpshock. It's too negative to be honest. CLG sucks, that rule makes that game unplayable, I've never seen an editing so bad, and so on with an occasionnal "yeah, that was maybe ok".

What I love on DS is level of knowledge of the game (story and rulewise). What I don't like is the global negative attitude (grumpys?).

And to be honest, I would have taken a look on the official forum if it wasn't blocked ay by job.

[binarywraith]

As a counterpoint, what do you want to hear? We don't write the game, and get hostile reactions for pointing out errors in the published materials that even the freelancers who post here note were straight-up errors. CGL can't even be bothered to errata most of the obvious ones without months of both the fan community and the freelancers poking at them to do so.

It breeds a negative viewpoint when you love a thing and the people who have responsibility for producing, curating, and expanding it don't appear to care about it beyond getting sales numbers out of the next half-baked, unedited .pdf release.

[Cain]

As for "encouragement", there's no encouragement from CGL management to avoid Dumpshock or use the Official Forums. We have plenty of freelancers who don't go to either, and a bunch who go to both. If anything, I'd say it's the rather caustic opinions and attitudes of a very small (but vocal) segment of the Dumpshock posters that encourage us to stay away. I'm not certain why, since it's always fun to be belittled and berated for things that we have no control over, but, ya know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well, here's the thing. First of all, Dumpshock is where actual news about Shadowrun comes out. The freelancer scandal first broke here, the proofreaders got together and noticed a bunch of errors they'd fixed here, all sorts of things. The Coleman embezzlement thing came out here, too. After all the negative press CGL got from those, it felt like they were trying to pull attention away from their mistakes, and open an "advertorial" channel.

Second, Dumpshockers have gotten results. If you wanted to know where the weaknesses were in a given system of Shadowrun, you came here. Other line developers came here-- Mike Mulvihill came her on occasion, Tom Dowd used to have an account, and Peter Taylor aka Synner was a long time member here. He and I never saw eye to eye, but I do respect his passion for Shadowrun. Anyway, frequently the first place that would find holes in the system was Dumpshock, and smart developers learned to listen to our complaints and fix the problems we brought up.

There were a few beforehand, but 4e was the biggest pile of them. Teamwork test abuses were first mentioned here, and Synner listened and applied a fix. Same with the Agent Smith army. In fact, the errata document compiled here is more complete than the 5e one, and it looks like they may have referenced it when making their version. Even some of my pet peeves made it in: I was the first person to suggest a fixed dice pool cap, specifically at 20. Missions borrowed my rule, which made sense, since the Missions coordinator comes here frequently and probably read it many times in my tirades. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

For better or worse, Dumpshock is the place for rabid, die-hard Shadowrun fans. And as a vocal part of the fan base, Dumpshockers are worth listening to. If we can't find a hole in the system, neither can anyone else, which means you're as close to bulletproof as possible. That;s why Wizards encourages the charop forums, they like to see what tricks players can come up with, and fix them if they get out of control. The CGL forums feel too party line for this sort of thing, which may be why the bigger rules breakages come from here.

[Bertramn]

There generally are not a lot of posts here from what I can see,
was that different in the past?

I kind of see the relation between Dumpshock and Shadowrun.com in a similar way,
as the relation between a tech-enthusiast-gearhead-forum, and Apple.com, if the latter had a forum.

[Stahlseele]

Oh yes, in the SR3 time still you could have trouble finding a started topic because it had vanished from the first page of the board come next day . .
And yes, the only people better at finding holes in the SR rules system and fluff than the people of dumpshock are not here anymore.

[Medicineman]

And yes, the only people better at finding holes in the SR rules system and fluff than the people of dumpshock are not here anymore.

but they aren't in the Gaming Den either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


He who dances in many a Forum
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

Oh yes they are.
There are not many that can keep up with thinking things through to the logical extreme like Frank and i don't think there is anybody out there at all that knows the fluff/universe as good as Bobby.
These two are the biggest losses the SR writing ever had.
One made working rules and one made working fluff.
The other freelancers were good people, but these two working in concert could have done so much more.

[Medicineman]

but they're so full of bitter Hatred for CGL (or somebody at CGL) that I doubt that they could ever again produce something good for Shadowrun.
Their hatred tainted their Minds (ImO) so they're not able to objectively criticise any Work that's been done lately.
they don't only find Holes in SR5 Rules ImO they see holes that aren't there at all.
and thus they're not qualified (IMO) to judge any of the Work of CGL
What does Taylor Swift sing ? :
Haters gonna hate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWlot6h_JM
0: 44
(But it's a fun Video to watch anyway)

Me, I'm gonna Dance
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, Bobby and Frank pretty much said they would not work on SR anymore ever. At least not as long as CGL with the current people are in control.
And no, they also find existing holes and think things through to the logical extreme such as if you can have a DNI without needing to drill holes, then you can have a DNI from further away if you amp up the power and aim it at the right places . .

[Moirdryd]

In response to BinaryWraith:
I'd love to see more of what we used to have. Alternative viewpoints being considered valid instead of Argument fodder (okay,they'd still be argument fodder) but more discussion on How To instead of How It's Wrong. Yeah CGL seems to be stumbling more than a little with the SR line (which given how solid the Battletech stuff still is is a real kicker, I love both universes), but I saw several people posit House Rules, Logical Fixes and an array of other things when SR5 first hit but they seemed to get swept away quickly in the negativity wave. Instead of people both seeing a flaw and offering an alternative, we just have "This is WRONG!" with no fix and almost any adjustment or otherwise being shouted down. I think the only recent conversation that took place here that was anything like the way we used to treat things was the Force Summoning limit one.

I Like SR3, I didn't like SR4 (but I enjoyed some of the fiction), I like the possibilities of SR5 but I have put together several pages of my own fixes to things or adjustments to things and I'm adding more as I go back through things (like breaking down the UMS back into Tradition Focused Magic Systems). But I wonder how many people just don't post now because of negative backlash instead of constructive discourse?

[sk8bcn]

I find that there's some negative backlash too, and it's not that friendly sometimes.

However, I struggle at contributing on SR 4 or 5 threads personnaly, because I haven't move on those yet thuse, I can't help.

It doesn't help on activity, opinion or advising. It's a factor you have to take in account.


Say you wanna discuss a fix for rule X for SR5.

People playing SR3 or 4 don't have the will to help out, finding a solution. Well, but critize is easier. It makes it negative, I guess.

[hermit]

I saw several people posit House Rules, Logical Fixes and an array of other things when SR5 first hit but they seemed to get swept away quickly in the negativity wave.

More than a bit of negativity came from a few authors being colossally dickish about criticism of their writing. You know who I'm talking about.

[Bertramn]

By the way, am I imagining the divide after the edition wars to be as big as it is?
At the moment I do not perceive the current Shadowrun-community to be anywhere near as enthusiastically constructive as it was when I startet,
which was around the beginnings of fourth edition.
The people who got me into Shadowrun were third edition players though,
even though I did not know the rules back then.

I was not around when the fourth edition of D&D hit,
but did their edition war hit anywhere near the divide in players percentage-wise?
I think D&D-Players moved on to Pathfinder instead of remaining in 3.5,
but I could be wrong about that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

By the way, am I imagining the divide after the edition wars to be as big as it is?
At the moment I do not perceive the current Shadowrun-community to be anywhere near as enthusiastically constructive as it was when I startet,
which was around the beginnings of fourth edition.
The people who got me into Shadowrun were third edition players though,
even though I did not know the rules back then.

I was not around when the fourth edition of D&D hit,
but did their edition war hit anywhere near the divide in players percentage-wise?
I think D&D-Players moved on to Pathfinder instead of remaining in 3.5,
but I could be wrong about that.

Not sure about the divide amongst Shadowrun players as a whole. I know that I far prefer SR4A over any other option. Our group is a bit divided. Our primary GM runs SR5, while the Backup GM runs SR4A. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for DnD, I stuck with 3.5 rather than go to another system. Gives me what I want, and I have most, if not all, of the books so I saw no need to buy into a completely new system, even if they were close. If we are playing Fantasy it is some variation of DnD 3.5. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sk8bcn]

I don't think it's that big.

Contrary to what is beeing said here, I'm absolutely certain that SR is still a big locomotive of RPG. SR5 sold well, side products (cards) are done, video games comes out.

I consider that SR3 irreductibles are like ADD irreductibles.

And, atm, there's too few SR5 products to push SR4-players on it.


On DS, there's many old-timers, and hard-core fans. It emphazises editions wars.

Say here: "SR3 was unplayable. SR4 is way superior." and you'll have an infinite argument about both systems.

Ask a non-fan, and he'd welcome 4th a lot -4th is easier- (PLEASE: do not argue about the systems, this is not my opinion about edition, but a thing I've checked when talking to a sample of non-die hard fans).

[Critias]

With the resurrection of the website and the new forums, many people here thought it was a grab. The dissenters here were being very vocal, I'll admit; but some of us thought the forums were a deliberate attempt to draw attention away from the system flaws, control the information about the game, and ignore the complaints.

The thing -- the thing about you that you just can't get, or won't admit to, or refuse to wrap your head around -- the thing is, Cain, that you think something is so, doesn't make it so. You just attributed entirely uncharitable motives to the devs/freelancers, and when corrected you didn't retract your comment, you doubled down on it. This, right here, is what I meant when I said it's the community of a forum that encourages (or rather, discourages) us from posting there.

That sums up your entire online persona right there. You think a thing is so, so you carve it in stone and you spread it like it's the ten fucking commandments. That's you. That's you, right there, in a nutshell. Once you make up your mind that something is true, there's no dissuading you, no disagreeing with you, and no shutting you up about it. Ever. About anything. I've never seen someone the same mixture of "pedantic" and "wrong a lot," in my entire life. Even -- especially! -- when you get called on saying something that isn't true, you just bull forward with it, like you just did. Two different freelancers/devs said you were incorrect about something, and what do you do? You just keep saying it, because it's what you thought.

Tell me...do you think that's a good character trait, or a really frustrating one?

I don't spend much time on the official forums-- I concede that they're much stricter on who says what, but that's part of the problem some people predicted. It's a pleasant enough place, in the sense that singing "Everything is Awesome!" all day long is technically pleasant.

You're right about one thing; you don't spend much time on the official forums.

[Sengir]

Human nature happened, we tend to be biased towards people (and anything else) who agree with us, so people naturally find a community where most people agree with their basic premises better. Not just more likeable, but also more factual, better informed...

Of course, there are some factors which accelerate such a natural process.

[Moirdryd]

Wow... Critias, cool down chummer.
I know Cain's often immobile standpoint can make for a frustrating time in debate (just look at the Corp SIN thread with mine and his back and forth) and I certainly don't see much Yes Man attitude on the official boards (there is some, but there's always some). In fact I find (as stated) the official board to be more welcoming of offering debate and alternate ways to present parts of the setting and/or game mechanics. But let's not go down this road, especially as it's one of the things that is generally agreed from the last few hours of posts that is less good about DS these days.

[Moirdryd]

Well Linked Sengir, Well Linked.