Dumpshock... What happened? Options

[Glyph]

It's not complicated rules that bother me - it's when those rules are incomplete, vaguely worded, or contradictory. Unfortunately, despite improving some areas, SR5 suffers from those problems, less, I think, from poor writing than from poor editing.

[Cain]

Just to be fair, with a rating 6 cyber jack, you'll be able to jump 6.6 meters in to the air for a 2 meter tall person, which is almost enough to jump up to a 3rd story building. It requires about 9 successes, which is pretty nuts, but possible with a liberal use of edge. So come on, how awesome is that shit.

"Dan the decker? You made your check, so you jump just high enough to grasp a hold of the ledge and pull yourself onto the roof. You pause for a moment, grunting and sweating.

"Larry the leaper? Your cyberlegs mean you don't even need to roll for a simple check. Your hydraulic jacks kick in, and you go somersaulting into the air, cartwheeling over Dan, and sticking a perfect two-point landing on the roof."

That is awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[binarywraith]

Be even more awesome if they'd reprint my Kid Stealth legs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[binarywraith]

And sometimes, even those items aren't as useful as they could be. I'm tempted to give my players the jar of everlasting mayonnaise to see what happens.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

If they're also SR players, they'll corner the mayo market in a few weeks and have to diversify into chicken salad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Edit : Ack, double post.

[nezumi]

I understand the appeal of a rigid rule-set.

I actually don't think you do. At least, not by your description (which I clipped for brevity, no offence intended).

I like a complex ruleset for two reasons. Firstly, I like the tinkering. I like making a character, adjusting the numbers, seeing what work and what doesn't, until I come away with a final product. It gives me a feeling of satisfaction and problem-solving, and ultimately, ownership. I *enjoy* character generation, and I generally have more characters in notebooks than in play.

The second reason is simulationism. I like imagining the situations provided, and getting realistic resolutions. There really aren't a lot of simulationist games on the market, outside of board games, and I like the roleplaying aspect, which board games don't have. I enjoy that Shadowrun pushes me to read military manuals. I enjoy being a better player through study and practice.

Yes, the market seems to be going the other way, and that's fine. A lot of my friends love Fiasco. I am not among them. And just because the majority of games are catering to that does not mean all of them need to. And yes, Shadowrun is not made for game days or beer, peanuts, and gaming. But that's okay too. I can assure you, when I am in the mood for beer, peanuts, and gaming, I have a gazillion choices to fill that niche (and I have not played any of them in at least two years).

Again, not saying those games are badwrongfun. They're just different. That doesn't mean Shadowrun should try to emulate them, any more than my blueberry pie needs more apple. Ultimately though, I think attempts to make Shadowrun into a rules-light game are fundamentally misguided.

[Cain]

It's not complicated rules that bother me - it's when those rules are incomplete, vaguely worded, or contradictory. Unfortunately, despite improving some areas, SR5 suffers from those problems, less, I think, from poor writing than from poor editing.

Both, honestly.

We've seen how many mistakes made it to the finished product. We can assign blame wherever you want for that, but the truth is, it starts with writers who turn in error-laden copy in the first place. As a writer, I'd be ashamed to submit work with that many problems. Proofreaders are supposed to be a final set of eyes checking the work, not a front-line grammar checker.

That said, poor editing is also a big problem, because no decent editor should ever accept writing with that many errors. They should send it back at the very least, and not pass it on.

Based on what we've seen, I also think the writers aren't communicating with each other effectively. There's many spots where it looks like they didn't coordinate with each other; terms used different ways, wrong examples, that sort of thing. It's like they didn't read each other's work. Which, admittedly, is more of the editor's fault than the writers.

[Critias]

...and, despite the lying promises Cratias gave me...

As frankly and politely as I can manage to say this; I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't like being called a liar, but if you absolutely must, I'd appreciate it if you could PM me with whatever it is I seem to have "promised" you, to clear the air.

[apple]

What an incredibly counter-intuitive thing to try and prove.

Its neither - even in old SR 123 official adventures it was sometimes advised not to have deckers and riggers.

SYL

[Smilingfaces]

Apple can you name one that did, please? Also are you talking modules like fasa stamped or stuff people did for the cons

[apple]

Just to be fair, with a rating 6 cyber jack, you'll be able to jump 6.6 meters in to the air for a 2 meter tall person, which is almost enough to jump up to a 3rd story building. It requires about 9 successes, which is pretty nuts, but possible with a liberal use of edge. So come on, how awesome is that shit.

And then compare the necessary amount of money, skill, attribute and essence that to ... levitate force 5 (and perhaps a force 3 spirit with movement). Its not that Sams are weak or that mages are OP (they are not, in neither edition (if there is an edition, where mages would be OP, it would be SR23), they just suffer from a needlessly cumbersome system, both in rules and equipment crunch.

The problem with SR4 is that it was too easy to cheese the system to make yourself immune to different aspects of the game.

This is not a design choice of SR4 alone. Bring me one example witch only works in SR4, but not in SR123 or 5. I do not mean "works better or worse". But making you completely immune which only works in SR4 and not in one way or the other in SR123 or 5.

ou just need your rating 6 agent, with rating 6 programs, on your system 6, response 6, firewall 6 commlink. Why need skills or attributes when nuyen can solve all your problems?

But it doesn´t. An agent 6 with program 6 can solve basic hacking issues. Nothing complicated, nothing complex. He is good for simple things like "get me basic infos on this name or hack this maglock 6". The moment you start with file editing, specific information manipulation, complex matrix interpretation, data analysis etc your agent will give up and you need a dedicated hacker as PC or NPC. Its like having a small initiative boost, an Ares Alpha, some agility booster and a chip 4 for automatics. You can shoot most normal guards and they will not be a large obstacle. Does it make the streetsam unnecessary? No, because the moment SWAT arrives you need dedicated soak- and firepower. Which is provided in form of a cybered up street sam and not of a face with some combat ware. If your sam is never challenged and can be replaced with a face with some combat ware, then it is the fail of your GM to provide adequate challenge - and the same goes for matrix encounters as well: if in your campaign an agent 6 is enough, then your GM failed to provide adequate matrix challenge, both in raw numbers (because a good enemy hacker will tear up any agent with double the dices and almost double the IPs) and in complexity ("please hack this maglock" vs "please analyze this matrix data to provide any clues on what happened here").

And yes, many gamemaster will never put up a matrix challenge like that. Rules, interaction with the group, ressources, preparation ... all way higher then simply asking the NPC to roll Computer and the mage to do astral scouting. *That* stops adequate matrix challenges right in the beginning. It does not stop it for mages, sams or faces, because there challenges can be set up quite easily and intuitively for the entire group (even the face can contribute to combat, even the sam can contribute to a large social scam). And there we bring the entire wagon around for "where is the MENU for remote control in SR" as in Cyberpunk 2020, where a dedicated netrunner was one hell of a battlefield controller - even without online silencers.

Then you get Emotitoys and just get a bunch of gear to make being a dedicated face pointless or completely unbalanced.

Besides the emotitoy being a little bit out of line for its raw crunchy power (we reduced it simply to a social smartlink: +2 dices): both sides have the empathy software, so it cancels each other out. You still need a dedicated face if you really want social manipulation on any challenging level. But yes, do convince the old guard to let you pass its enough. To spin an entire story to bring your team into a high security facility is a totally different story. Again: if your GM simply allows 6 bonus dices being enough to completely circumvent a face with a lot more dices, connections and possibilities the error is not on the side of the mechanics but on the side of the GM not providing anything near a challenge.

That's the problem with SR4, is that almost all problems could be solved with just spending more nuyen to the point where you get more successes than the opposition has dice, or that everyone can do everything so there is no point in specializing.

Is that really so easy? Emotitoys can be used by both sides (just like smartlinks or medkits), so they cancel each other out. Then you still need raw crunching power for any challenge. Its the job of the Gamemaster to provide that. If everything is so easy that it can be solved by agent 6 and empathy 6, then there is indeed an error, but not with the system. Could the system be improved? Sure, because there is a lot of inconsistency of what provides power. A normal tool kit does not provide a roll bonus. A medkit gives +6 (and is widely accepted, the empathy software gives +6 too (and is not widely accepted), the smartlink gives +2 etc.

This is why classes exist in other game systems to prevent this much level of stepping on each other's toes.

And yet many of these class systms have multiclassing, dual classing or other possibilities to dip into other classses. Lets take Pathfinder for example (currently the most important incarnation of the DnD system): currently the front line combat duty (aka the street sam) can be fulfilled by the fighter, paladin, summoner, barbarian, war clerics, feral druids, specialised monks, specialised alchemists and chevaliers. Even in the old DnD3 you had fighters, paladins, druids, war clerics, and some monks. So as long as the classes are not reduced to "fighter, rogue, mage" dipping into other areas is pretty common. In SR for example many characters have infiltration/stealth and perception,l with hackers and riggers often having electronic skills to manipulate maglocks, cams and security systems. Why do you accept that because it reduces the value of the dedicated sensor man and the dedicated infiltration specialist if some decker can replace the infiltration specialist and provide matrix support as well?

SYL

[apple]

Apple can you name one that did, please? Also are you talking modules like fasa stamped or stuff people did for the cons

Actually both.

Still remember Harlequin 2? "The adventures offer no role for a decker or rigger" straight from the preparation part (because surely, if the streetsam gets transmutated cyberware it would have been impossible to let the riggers control animals and the decker access the dreamworld beyond the veil of reality for these kind of runs). Great adventure design. They did not even try to include two of the most iconic cyberpunk archetypes into one of their main metaplot storylines. Why? Simply because it was for them a waste of time.

And I know for certain that on many German cons (Fanpros RatCon for example) some of the official GMs either outright forbid deckers and riggers or reduced them to "roll computer against target number 8". It was with SR4 and the introduction of a "light matrix" that suddenly hackers were included in the official groups.

SYL

[Smilingfaces]

In old school DnD you had to work for everything. Grab an old 2nd edition dnd book and a 3.5 or pathfinder core pull up exp levels. See huge difference. Also you had to make it out with the treasure that's what landed you alot of your exp it was not lets kill everything and maybe we will ding mentality. You could eventually gain followers or a castle or a thief's guild some sort of staging area depending on class you picked if you multiclass you took a hit on exp unless it was your races favorite class or you kept the levels close. Bringing it back to Shadowrun what really kept things balanced between an Adept and a razor/samurai was if the adept took a deadly wound he could lose magic which ment powers. A samurai could just get his cyber replaced an adept would have to grit his teeth and pray he doesn't lose his powers.

[Smilingfaces]

On harlequin 2, into the west page 59 "any character carring a implanted VCR on the physical plane possesses a special affinity for riding beasts" it goes on adds bonus to mount speed bla bla bla. want me to find a decker now?

[apple]

Well, look into the preparation part in the first part of the book. For the *entire* book. But yes, find me one for deckers.

SYL

[Smilingfaces]

harlyquin 2 the masquerade pg 129 "A decker who examines the strange-looking terminal (spoiler)" givin enough time and a successful Computer theory (6) test A decker" bla bla bla spoiler stuff if you read on it mentions a cyberdeck too.
Havent you heard the saying you cant judge a book by its cover Apple:) you got read the damn thing

[Cain]

Well, look into the preparation part in the first part of the book

But yes, find me one for deckers.

The entire Victorian section includes a "magic lantern" thing that resembles the Matrix, and is specifically designed for decker characters to use.

[Smilingfaces]

Id like to point out about the earlier shadowrun stuff between 1-3 2nd 6th printing read like a actual book and it was easy to find stuff it wasn't wordy like 3rd. Don't get me wrong I do like stuff in 3rd but I I think they kind of goofed up a few things as well like the matrix but im not going to dive head long into it

[Fatum]

Fatum, I am not going to try to convince you to my way of thinking. But I do honestly believe that Shadowrun's overly complicated mechanics and character creation frequently hold the game back from adoption.

Yes, no doubt sometimes they do. How is that to mean players should be given less options (with "lighter" rules, less equipment, or character customization options)? It's always a trade-off, to put it simply there is a choice between rules light systems where all characters with the same concept (all sword-bearing dex-based warriors, for instance) are essentially mechanically the same, and rules heavy systems where you get to customize your character in greater detail. You can't really have both.

And that's not even going into the complexity of the setting and its decades of metaplot backstory.

Sure; is the complex setting and its decades-old metaplot being hard on new players to mean that both should be thrown away and replaced with something simpler? Or just that you needn't force the entirety of it on the new players at once?

There's no lack of fascinating and fun tabletop RPGs out there, so if another great one attracts the players by letting them jump right in and attracts me as a GM because it's easy to run and allows me the freedom to improvise on the fly, then that is probably where I'll go.

You can't improvise with Shadowrun? How do you ever run games?

Aquila non capit muscas.

Hahaha, you might want to have that ego looked at, it appears inflated. Especially minding that you've run out of factual arguments.

Since you only need the PHB to create a character, it's pretty easy to go through all the options you ever need to worry about.
A huge difference between being able to skim a player's guide and start planing in a few minutes, and needing to read a 500+ page rulebook to grasp the basics.

I haven't read 5e cover to cover so far, but judging from my 3.5 experience, even with core you need to read each class description, skills, feats, magic spells, equipment and often magic items from DMG (unless you start at the very low level). Hardly less than for Shadowrun, really.
The same goes for Dark Heresy, except it's talents instead of feats and psyker powers instead of magic spells.

I don't like being called a liar, but if you absolutely must, I'd appreciate it if you could PM me with whatever it is I seem to have "promised" you, to clear the air.

Neither do I like being lied to. Replied with details in a PM, as requested.

Its neither - even in old SR 123 official adventures it was sometimes advised not to have deckers and riggers.

Seriously? "People won't use a system that doesn't work for them"? Who would've thought, really! I still can't believe it!

[apple]

harlyquin 2 the masquerade pg 129 "A decker who examines the strange-looking terminal (spoiler)" givin enough time and a successful Computer theory (6) test A decker" bla

Computer theory? Really? I am talking about a DECKER with => matrix rules, cyberdeck, host hacking, system ratings, program use <= etc. It would be the same as "please do not use a street sam, because the entire campaign will have no combat but sometimes your street sam can roll on the ballistics knowledge skill.

Regarding the masquerade: "Treat accessing the engine as a mini astral quest using computer and tech skills to overcome the defenses. See page 95 of the Grimoire" I am sorry. That is not decking. That is no usage of programs, skills, system ratings and host systems where the matrix can be manipulated as a decker is used to. That is your random guy doing an astral quest. Your mage or streetsam could do that (as long as they possess tech skills, which were really cheap in SR23). If you ever said anything about hackers being replaced by agents in SR4 by agents, you can point out H2 as well. Just to make sure: cyberdecks have no meaning here. The "decker" could have a sigma with rating 1 programs or an excalibur with rating 12 programs. All he needs is a random tech skill - could be the rigger, the infiltrator, the gear monkey or the streetsam with a second field as well.

The entire fraggin point is that adventures/campaign were published which make entire iconic archetypes a joke, supported by official actions to reduce the decker to "roll skill against 6" because the adaption of the entire rule set (Matrix) would be too complex/difficult/whatever their reason was.

Do you guys really think that the following sentence set up a certain tone regardign hackers and riggers?

"Player characters such as deckers or riggers who need machinery to use their special talents will have the hardest time playing active roles in the story. Some of the aventures simply offer no role for a decker or rigger, even when transformed to make the appropriate to the setting."

It doesnt get more official than that when it comes to supporting iconic archetypes. Even the engine is not transformed into a host with host ratings, but handled as an astral quest.

SYL

[Critias]

Neither do I like being lied to. Replied with details in a PM, as requested.

I appreciate the clarification, at least.

Mostly, I just believe you and I remember that conversation (inasmuch as I remember any single DS conversation) very differently. If you think me having a different opinion than you over a rule you dislike constitutes me lying to you about it, I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm sorry you feel I've ever been dishonest around here. I don't believe I have, and I think your interpretation/recollection of that exchange is perhaps the least charitable one possible (in order to justify, to yourself, calling me a liar)...but if your mind is made up, your mind is made up.

[Cain]

You can't improvise with Shadowrun? How do you ever run games?

SR4.5 does not support on-the-fly gaming as well as other games. And that's a big deal now-- people don't have time to prep big games, when they have careers and kids to worry about. So low-prep options are always good.

SR4.5 is particularly bad at it, though. There were no quick rules to stat up NPC's in the books-- anything beyond a mook was supposed to be built with BP, just like a player character. Personally, I found the Sr4.5 BP system to be slow and cumbersome at best, so that was simply not an option.

I haven't read 5e cover to cover so far, but judging from my 3.5 experience, even with core you need to read each class description, skills, feats, magic spells, equipment and often magic items from DMG (unless you start at the very low level). Hardly less than for Shadowrun, really.

Not as much as you might think.

I run Encounters games for open play nights, and I've only skimmed some parts of the PHB. Encounters is set for characters of level 1-4, so I'm really vague on any spell above that level. Magic items are extremely rare; I'm familiar with the basics of them, but considering that in the last three months I've handed out exactly one permanent item, it's never come up. I was in a home game that got us to 10-11th level, and we maybe had one each.

Feats aren't a big deal in D&D5, they're an option, and not always a very good one, and you can;t even start with them under the main rules. Equipment isn't a big deal either-- it's easiest to start with an equipment package, which gives you all the weapons and armor your character can reasonably use. Other items are covered in the various adventurer's kits, so you can gloss over detailed equipment lists.

If you stick to just the quick pics, you can build a very effective character and only need to read about 10-20 pages of rules for character creation and basic systems. It gets a bit bigger if you're a spellcaster, but not that much. And the difference between a quick pick and a custom made character isn't that great, mechanically speaking.

Regarding the masquerade: "Treat accessing the engine as a mini astral quest using computer and tech skills to overcome the defenses. See page 95 of the Grimoire" I am sorry. That is not decking.

*sigh* Did you read the rest of the sentence? "Treat accessing the engine as a mini astral quest using computer and tech skills to overcome the defenses (See page 95, Grimoire II) using Computer and other Technological skills to overcome the Engine's defenses." Deckers also get cyberdeck analogues, and get to use their skills in full in this scene.

[apple]

*sigh* Did you read the rest of the sentence?

Yes, I even quoted the same sentence as you. You even quoted my quote completely with the tech skills. Did you read the part with the astral quest? Which uses completely different rule than the matrix rules? As in "GM, make a target number up and let me roll by electronics BR skill".

"Treat accessing the engine as a mini astral quest using computer and tech skills to overcome the defenses (See page 95, Grimoire II) using Computer and other Technological skills to overcome the Engine's defenses."

Yes.

As an astral quest.

With astral quests mechanics. Speaks volumes, if the decker should not use deck mechanism but magic mechanism. Lets see...

Astral quests in SR2

Social Skill to resist damage of (Quest Rating)M
Melee Combat Skill to resist (Quest Rating)S Physical damage.
character's Magic Attribute (or Essence, if he is not a magician or adept) to resist damage of (Quest Rating)S Stun
Willpower to resist damage of (Quest Rating) Stun.
Science Skill to resist (Quest Rating)M Physical damage
Magical Skill to resist (Quest Rating) Stun damage must use astral combat or banishing, Modem weaponry is permissible; that is, the combat takes place as though the spirit were attacking the questers in the physical world.

Or roleplay

Last time I checked the grimoire, system ratings, programs and host colors were not part of the astral quest.

Hell, even one sentence like "the engine works as a (just for example) Red-10 system or has the following net plan (inert pre "Virtual Reality" rule) and the following machines, spirits, infos, gadgets are attached to it ... " would have worked wonders.

Deckers also get cyberdeck analogues

Strange, nothing on that in my H2. Can you elaborate/quote what exactly you mean? I suppose you are referring to the "Heart of the machine / in the gears" chapter? Because there it does not make any difference if you have a sigma or a excalibur, with rating 1 or rating 12 programs with an initiative of 1w6 or 3w6. Except of course if the GM works something out on his own - which usually should be done by the adventure.

SR4.5 is particularly bad at it, though. There were no quick rules to stat up NPC's in the books

What exactly is stopping you from just assigning the numbers based on the attribute/skill description in the book? You need an average street cop? 3-4. You need a SWAT team? 5-6. You need a veteran cop? Some 4 and 5. What do you define as "quick rule to stat up NPCs"?

anything beyond a mook was supposed to be built with BP, just like a player character. Personally, I found the Sr4.5 BP system to be slow and cumbersome at best, so that was simply not an option.

Actually, that is not true. Let me quote:

Sample Grunts
Tir Ghosts (Professional Rating 6)
There’s a reason the special forces of the elven nation of Tir Tairngire are called Ghosts: they are the masters of covert operations and have broken into some of the most secure areas on the planet undetected. Most of the time their targets won’t know what hit them until it’s too late, but in a fair fight they aren’t always that much better than most augmented combat veterans.

As in "just assign numbers who make halfway sense" and you are good to go. And even Tir Ghots (something a little bit more than just a mook, right?), were part of that system. For a "on the fly" game completely sufficient. The rest is equipment, magic, cybernetics, and there you can use the archetypes as an inspiration if you have no idea what your Lone Star magic investigator should use if you have absolutely no idea on what to do.

And yes, both archetypes and NPC examples throughout the editions sucked and were badly designed. Including SR4.5

What you are referring to, are Prime Runners / Major characters. Indeed they should be build with Karma (personally I find that idea dumb, but yes, these are the rules), but a prime runner is usually nothing for a "on the fly game". Let me quote:

Prime Runners
Every once in a while, player characters will encounter a memorable NPC who is their match, or better. These individuals may have recurring roles in a campaign or they might be making a one-off appearance.
These special characters are called prime runners, though the term applies to any major “named” character.

Yes, rare and very special characters who should/could become the nemesis of the group are build using the BP system and are given Karma to grow with the group. Personally I do not like the mechanism, but declaring that anyone above a mook must use the BP/Karma system is simply not true.

SYL

[Cain]

Yes, I even quoted the same sentence as you. You even quoted my quote completely with the tech skills. Did you read the part with the astral quest? Which uses completely different rule than the matrix rules? The astral quest uses astral quest rules. As in "GM, make a targent number up and let me roll by electronics BR skill".

Astral quest rules were basically a series of trials that used different attributes. You were *supposed* to roleplay out each one, adjusted as you see fit. By making it use only Computer and technical skills, you favored the decker. On top of that, you could still use programs if you felt like it, that's part of the flavor of astral quests.

Strange, nothing on that in my H2. Can you elaborate/quote what exactly you mean? I suppose you are referring to the "Heart of the machine / in the gears" chapter?

Second to last paragraph on p126. "Cyberdecks transform into a satchel, suitcase, or carpetbag, containing a heavy gauntlet and a helmet similar to the fishbowl-like affairs on ancient diving suits."

[Smilingfaces]

Still remember Harlequin 2? "The adventures offer no role for a decker or rigger"
"But yes, find me one for deckers" that's what you said Apple. I found you rigger and I found you a decker it even says decker and cyberdecks so it was thought about and planed to involve a decker. You can post huge block paragraphs trying to state your claim but I think its debunked. Plain as the wording and everything. There was a place in the module for deckers. Do you have another module you want to try while I am still up?

[apple]

Astral quest rules were basically a series of trials that used different attributes.

Yes, thank you, I already quoted that. You do not need to quote my quote just to prove that you were quoting my quote.

Second to last paragraph on p126. "Cyberdecks transform into a satchel, suitcase, or carpetbag, containing a heavy gauntlet and a helmet similar to the fishbowl-like affairs on ancient diving suits."

Yes, and the rules? Because the very moment you are using your cbyerdeck-mushroom, you are not using the deck/matrix rules, but the rules for an astral quest. Which does, as per rules, not include any cyberdecks, programs or other part of what makes you a decker. Of course the GM can make something up. Of course he can rewrite H2 completely to inlcude hackers and riggers in every adventure like mages, sams and faces. But shouln´t be that done by the authors of the adventure? Of course it should be done by the authors, no questions asked. Excluding and even advising of some the core archetypes for SR for an entire campaign is a no-go. Can you imagine Ghost cartels without faces? Brainscan without mages? Corporate Warfare without sams? I cannot.

And now we are "favoring" the decker? Wouldn´t the appropriate description be "we are desperately searching for a reason to include a decker! How about using the engine as a host to deck in? Awesome! Lets use the matrix rules and stat the engine like a host. No? Well, we could always go for the magic rules, as per astral quests. And what happens with the rigger or infiltrator? Well, they can do that too, because tech skills!"

That is your definition of designing the adventure for all the iconic archetypes in SR?

@smilingfaces
Perhaps you should go back to the very start of this part of the discussion:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1305948

Its neither - even in old SR 123 official adventures it was sometimes advised not to have deckers and riggers.

Apple can you name one that did, please? Also are you talking modules like fasa stamped or stuff people did for the cons

=>

"Player characters such as deckers or riggers who need machinery to use their special talents will have the hardest time playing active roles in the story. Some of the aventures simply offer no role for a decker or rigger, even when transformed to make the appropriate to the setting.[...] Though such characters may participate [Apple: how generous] in this adventure the nature of their abilities makes such participations more difficult"

Would you say that the quoted statement from the start of H2 could be seen as an advise against playing deckers and riggers in H2? What was exactly as I said?

SYL