Shadowrun Licensing, Kickstarter? Options

[Draco18s]

IC (and black IC) in particular is likely no longer something you can claim as your own IP. if it was, then shadowrun would probably not be allowed to use it, because they certainly were not the first people to come up with the idea.

I was trying to think of something that sounds generic, but isn't. Everything I came up with was already Public Domain ("matrix" "technomancer") or clearly not.

[binarywraith]

I was trying to think of something that sounds generic, but isn't. Everything I came up with was already Public Domain ("matrix" "technomancer") or clearly not.

ICE, Black ICE, and cyberspace are all Gibson, from Neuromancer and I believe Burning Chrome before it. A whole lot of Shadowrun's Matrix is pretty much Neuromancer, though...

[WhiskeyJohnny]

ICE, Black ICE, and cyberspace are all Gibson, from Neuromancer and I believe Burning Chrome before it. A whole lot of Shadowrun's Matrix is pretty much Neuromancer, though...

In fact, ICE and Black ICE were an invention of Tom Maddox, according to Gibson. Either way, they aren't part of the Shadowrun IP. But yeah, the Sprawl Trilogy is all over Shadowrun - street samurai, the matrix, corporate defections, drones, you name it.

[Cain]

I was trying to think of something that sounds generic, but isn't. Everything I came up with was already Public Domain ("matrix" "technomancer") or clearly not.

Actually, unless I misremember, the term "Matrix" is copyrighted to Shadowrun. Nobody else can use the term in a role-playing game without their permission. Reportedly, that was why the Matrix movies never had a RPG tie-in, they couldn't get permission from the Shadowrun holders.

[Bertramn]

The movie basically destroyed the term for me anyway. I enjoy calling it the grid.

[Cochise]

ICE, Black ICE, and cyberspace are all Gibson, from Neuromancer and I believe Burning Chrome before it. A whole lot of Shadowrun's Matrix is pretty much Neuromancer, though...

It's generally not so much about who "invented" a certain term but rather about who trademarks it for a specific trade purpose first.

The terms "SHADOWRUN" and "MATRIX" were registered trademarks of FASA Corporation. The former being an original trademark created by FASA whereas "MATRIX" originally came from a Company called "ENVIRONMENTAL SIMULATIONS PROJECT INC.". Interestingly enough FASA Corp technically still seems to have hold of the "MATRIX" trademark for "EQUIPMENT SOLD AS A UNIT FOR PLAYING A GAME ON A BOARD OR ON A PERSONAL COMPUTER" while the term is otherwise trademarked for other trade purposes by hundreds of other companies, but the trademark could have expired in 2011.

The SHADOWRUN trademarks these days belong to Microsoft (computer games) and Topps (board games, roleplaying games). Technically Topps owns or owned the SHADOWRUN trademarks for further market areas (like film, televison and music) as well but some of those seem to be in an "unused" / "abandoned" or otherwise legally unclear state.

ICE and Black ICE are trademarked in some market areas as well ... but not for the purposes of which we're talking here (at least I couldn't find any).

[Sengir]

ICE and Black ICE are trademarked in some market areas as well ... but not for the purposes of which we're talking here (at least I couldn't find any).

There used to be a personal firewall called Black Ice Defender or something similar...sadly nobody ever sued them for fraudulent advertising (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

There used to be a personal firewall called Black Ice Defender or something similar...sadly nobody ever sued them for fraudulent advertising (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, it didn't actually set people on fire.

[KarmaInferno]

Trademarks are restricted by trade. McDonalds the fast food chain could not sue McDonalds the shoe company, for example. Unless the fast food chain also had a prior-established shoe industry trademark.



-k

[Cain]

The SHADOWRUN trademarks these days belong to Microsoft (computer games) and Topps (board games, roleplaying games). Technically Topps owns or owned the SHADOWRUN trademarks for further market areas (like film, televison and music) as well but some of those seem to be in an "unused" / "abandoned" or otherwise legally unclear state.

I'm not entirely sure about all of that. The Matrix movies were able to be made despite the trademark, as was the video game. There might have been some negotiating going on behind the scenes, but Microsoft would not have let a video game slip past their trademark lawyers. Still, the SR5 book does clearly list "Matrix" as a trademarked term on the copyright page, so it is decidedly restricted. I don't think you can use it in another RPG without running afoul of copyright issues.

[Adam]

Anyway, from what I read, Jordan bought the Shadowrun video game IP outright from Microsoft. Which probably was easy, considering that their game tanked hard-core. If you look over the history, Microsoft got it when they acquired FASA interactive, and mostly wanted the Battletech game rights anyway. It was always a secondary item, at best. And like anyone who lives in Seattle, Jordan must know tons of Microsquish employees, so getting a face to face meeting would have been easy.

Microsoft still owns the Shadowrun computer game rights, and licenses them to Harebrained Schemes and Cliffhanger Productions.

Jordan knows people at Microsoft because he worked for them from 1999-2002, after he sold FASA Interactive to them.

[Cain]

Microsoft still owns the Shadowrun computer game rights, and licenses them to Harebrained Schemes and Cliffhanger Productions.

Jordan knows people at Microsoft because he worked for them from 1999-2002, after he sold FASA Interactive to them.

I stand corrected on the first part.

As for the second, though? Wizkids main office was in Redmond, not far from the Microsoft campus. If you live in the Seattle area long enough, you'll meet a few dozen Microsofties. Heck, I'm even related to a few. For the most part, Microsoft's corporate culture is pretty open, they encourage guests and community networking. The night I met Jordan, it was because a Microsoft employee brought me to the Wizkids store grand opening. It's not that surprising.

[Adam]

I'm not saying it's surprising. It's absolutely not surprising, given that a) he sold a company to them, and b) he worked there.

[Cochise]

I'm not entirely sure about all of that.

Not too surprising since you constantly confuse intellectual property, copyright and trademarks. But to be clear: I did research the current situation for the trademarks Shadowrun and Matrix prior to making the statement

The Matrix movies were able to be made despite the trademark, as was the video game.

You obviously don't grasp what trademark means. As I said: FASA Corp held and appearently still holds the trademark to the term MATRIX for board games / roleplaying games and computer games. Those rights did never interfere with rights for movies but someone certainly paid for using the MATRIX name in computer games until 2011. Since 2011 the trademark on MATRIX is not that clear but when in doubt it's still in FASA's possession.

Still, the SR5 book does clearly list "Matrix" as a trademarked term on the copyright page, so it is decidedly restricted.

With the given production quality of SR these days I won't comment on the correctness of the text in the SR5 book. However that particular trademark is of no relevance for the Shadowrun trademark held by Microsoft. Microsoft holds the trademark and other intellectual property rights for computer games only and just for Shadowrun, not MATRIX.

I don't think you can use it in another RPG without running afoul of copyright issues.

Luckily I haven't claimed anything to the contrary.

[Sendaz]

So what are the odds Mr Weisman talked Mr Gates into a game session? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

What? He has played D&D before, and he might have jumped at the chance to play with one of the guys who wrote SR.

[WhiskeyJohnny]

It's generally not so much about who "invented" a certain term but rather about who trademarks it for a specific trade purpose first.

There I go mixing up Copyright and Trademark again - though in my own defense, the particulars of intellectual property law are sufficiently opaque to easily confuse a layperson like me.

[Cain]

You obviously don't grasp what trademark means. As I said: FASA Corp held and appearently still holds the trademark to the term MATRIX for board games / roleplaying games and computer games. Those rights did never interfere with rights for movies but someone certainly paid for using the MATRIX name in computer games until 2011. Since 2011 the trademark on MATRIX is not that clear but when in doubt it's still in FASA's possession.

Unless I'm mistaken, you claimed that Topps held the movie trademark to that term, which is what caused the confusion.

At any event, when FASA interactive was bought by Microsoft, the video games rights to "Matrix" went to them. Somehow, someone else managed to make a video game based on the movies; likely that meant there was some negotiations that went on, but there's no way to tell. So, you may be right in general, but you're missing a few specifics: Microsoft apparently owns the Shadowrun/Matrix terms outright, as part of owning FASA Interactive; Topps never had those rights.

With the given production quality of SR these days I won't comment on the correctness of the text in the SR5 book. However that particular trademark is of no relevance for the Shadowrun trademark held by Microsoft. Microsoft holds the trademark and other intellectual property rights for computer games only and just for Shadowrun, not MATRIX.

That one, I know you're wrong on. When Microsoft bought FASA Interactive, they got the video game rights to all the FASA properties: BattleTech, Crimson Skies, Vor, and Shadowrun, as well as all affiliated properties (Inner Sphere, Clan, etc.). I'm pretty sure they got Earthdawn as well, although I don't think they ever even tried to do anything with it. "Matrix" is linked to Shadowrun, so that would have come along with it.

I will say that the text in the front of SR5 doesn't look any different than the same text in Sr1, 2, 3, 4, or 4.5. Unless something has changed, I don't see how that's any different than before.

So what are the odds Mr Weisman talked Mr Gates into a game session? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Game session? Dunno. But Gates is pretty mean in a Battletech pod. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Sendaz]

Game session? Dunno. But Gates is pretty mean in a Battletech pod. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Is there a story to go with this? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Have been in one of those simulators years ago and they seemed neat at the time.

[Sengir]

Yeah, it didn't actually set people on fire.

Well, Black IC(E) which just kills people dead without setting them on fire would still have been fine with me, but a software which does nothing more than alerting people to extremely dangerous "ICMP 8 attacks" without killing the offender?!

@Adam

Microsoft still owns the Shadowrun computer game rights, and licenses them to Harebrained Schemes and Cliffhanger Productions.

There once was Smith&Tinker, are they entirely out of the picture or still in some sub-co-sub-legacy license deal?

[Cochise]

Unless I'm mistaken, you claimed that Topps held the movie trademark to that term, which is what caused the confusion.

The you should try re-reading what I "claimed":

The terms "SHADOWRUN" and "MATRIX" were registered trademarks of FASA Corporation.

Oberservation 1: FASA owned trademarks to the term Shadowrun and Matrix ... which is correct.

The former being an original trademark created by FASA whereas "MATRIX" originally came from a Company called "ENVIRONMENTAL SIMULATIONS PROJECT INC.".

Oberservation 2: The trademark "Shadowrun" was originally created by FASA whereas the trademark for "Matrix" came from a different company ... still correct.

Interestingly enough FASA Corp technically still seems to have hold of the "MATRIX" trademark for "EQUIPMENT SOLD AS A UNIT FOR PLAYING A GAME ON A BOARD OR ON A PERSONAL COMPUTER" while the term is otherwise trademarked for other trade purposes by hundreds of other companies, but the trademark could have expired in 2011.

Oberservation 3: FASA still appears to hold the "Matrix" trademark for the defined purpose(s) in capital letter according to the sources I checked with. No claim of 100% certainty but still "correct"

The SHADOWRUN trademarks these days belong to Microsoft (computer games) and Topps (board games, roleplaying games).

Oberservation 4: Trademarks for "Shadowrun" are now held by Microsoft and Topps ... which is correct according to the sources I checked.

Technically Topps owns or owned the SHADOWRUN trademarks for further market areas (like film, televison and music) as well but some of those seem to be in an "unused" / "abandoned" or otherwise legally unclear state.

Oberservation 5: Topps held and potentially still holds trademarks for the term "Shadowrun" on other trade areas (film, television and and music), but these rights appear to be in a legally unclear state.

ICE and Black ICE are trademarked in some market areas as well ... but not for the purposes of which we're talking here (at least I couldn't find any).

Oberservation 6: ICE and Black ICE do exist as trademarks but not with a connection to board games, computer games or any other intellectual property that would be relevant for this thread ... again still correct.

So I made no claim of any kind that said Topps holds or ever held any rights to the "MATRIX" trademark as far as film or television are concerned. Your "confusion" is not due to any of my "claims" but rather your failed reading comprehension test.

At any event, when FASA interactive was bought by Microsoft, the video games rights to "Matrix" went to them.

And that's the "fun" part: According to the sources I went to check with it didn't. Going by those sources Microsoft never held trademarks for "MATRIX". That right was held by FASA Corp. up until 2011 and is possibly still held by them.

Somehow, someone else managed to make a video game based on the movies;

Correct.

likely that meant there was some negotiations that went on, but there's no way to tell.

If such negotiations occured they would have occured between FASA Corp. and whoever did the Matrix games prior to 2011. And I'm rather confident that they occured.

[Cochise]

So, you may be right in general,

I'm confident as well that I was "right" about far more than you think.

but you're missing a few specifics:

Really?

Microsoft apparently owns the Shadowrun/Matrix terms outright, as part of owning FASA Interactive;

Microsoft only ever owned the trademark for "Shadowrun" as far as computer games are concerned for sure. But the trademark for Matrix seems to have never left FASA Corp despite the split of trademarks for "Shadowrun" between FASA Corp. and FASA Interactive. Therefore it's doubtful that Micorosoft acquired said trademark upon acquisition of FASA Interactive.

Topps never had those rights.

Haven't said anything to the contrary.

That one, I know you're wrong on.

As much as you know about the rest so far?

When Microsoft bought FASA Interactive, they got the video game rights to all the FASA properties: BattleTech, Crimson Skies, Vor, and Shadowrun, as well as all affiliated properties (Inner Sphere, Clan, etc.).

The "problem" with that is, that FASA Interactive appearantly never held the trademark for the term "MATRIX" with regards to computer games. That particular trademark always belonged to FASA Corp. for both borad games and computer games up until 2011 (and possibly still belongs to them). Microsoft could not acquire things that FASA Interactive never had.

I'm pretty sure they got Earthdawn as well, although I don't think they ever even tried to do anything with it.

Instead of just being sure you could have tried informing yourself there. Fun fact: the trademark for Earthdawn with regards to computer games belonged to FASA Corp. until 2002 (when it got cancelled). Microsoft bought FASA Interactive in 1999. So it's somewhat doubtful that Microsoft got that one "as well" at the time of acquiring FASA Interactive.

"Matrix" is linked to Shadowrun, so that would have come along with it.

Just a simple "No" to that one. That's not how trademarks work.

I will say that the text in the front of SR5 doesn't look any different than the same text in Sr1, 2, 3, 4, or 4.5.

Now here comes the real fun part, SR5 reads the following:

© 2013 The Topps Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Shadowrun and Matrix are registered trademarks
and/or trademarks of The Topps Company, Inc.,
in the United States and/or other countries.

So that text certainly does look different to previous editions (like 3rd) where FASA Corp. was declared to be the owner of both trademarks. And - at least within the limitations of my research - I would voice my doubts about the MATRIX trademark for RPGs actually currently being held by Topps.

But now I'm definitely back to ignoring you ... this time completely ... via board preferences ... because now I fell into the pit trap of wasting time on you again and indirectly contributed to exactly those problems that are so dominant on this board.

[Grinder]

This leads nowhere.