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> Upgrade Rules, Extracted from Edition Discussion
binarywraith
post Dec 31 2014, 01:35 AM
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We've had upgrade rules since Shadowtech at the very least. Now, if you don't like that the upgrade rules are 'remove old cyber, refill Essence hole with something else', that's another thing. But the rules have been there all along.
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apple
post Dec 31 2014, 07:12 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Dec 30 2014, 08:35 PM) *
We've had upgrade rules since Shadowtech at the very least. Now, if you don't like that the upgrade rules are 'remove old cyber, refill Essence hole with something else', that's another thing. But the rules have been there all along.


To be honest: I do not consider these upgrade rules. These are replacenment rules. Upgrades rule sare something along these lines "If you have booster 1 and you want booster 2, you pay only the difference in nuyen and essence."

@Method
Actually that is one of the things I like in SR5. Perhaps because other RPGs I love are similar written, more ingame style or as a gamemaster would explain something to a new player. Personally I prefer that compared to a technical writing. I suppose its (for me at last) part of the "cyberpunk style". However you are in one point absolutely correct: rules must be explained correctly and efficiently.

You are correct on the "one attack" thing, thou. Making that limit without explaining it and leaving it open to interpretation (without at least giving some examples for special cases) is not good.

SYL
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binarywraith
post Dec 31 2014, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE (apple @ Dec 31 2014, 01:12 AM) *
To be honest: I do not consider these upgrade rules. These are replacenment rules. Upgrades rule sare something along these lines "If you have booster 1 and you want booster 2, you pay only the difference in nuyen and essence."


I rather prefer it this way. Booster 2 is a completely different device than Booster 1, in the same way that the different flavors of bone lacing are different devices entirely. It makes perfect sense that an 'upgrade' would require replacing most if not all of a previous lower powered implant to get proper effect.
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Cain
post Dec 31 2014, 08:00 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Dec 30 2014, 11:48 PM) *
I rather prefer it this way. Booster 2 is a completely different device than Booster 1, in the same way that the different flavors of bone lacing are different devices entirely. It makes perfect sense that an 'upgrade' would require replacing most if not all of a previous lower powered implant to get proper effect.

Well, while it may be "realistic", it also unfairly screws over cybered characters.

In every edition, going from Wired 2 to Wired 3 is a big step. Wired 3 costs a lot, so a cybered character will be saving up for a long time to get it. If we allowed upgrades, allowed someone to just pay the difference between 2 and 3, then it becomes a lot more feasable. *Especially* in SR5, where you can't start with it.

And when you compare it to other similar abilities, the difference is stark. Adepts can just upgrade by paying the difference. Mages can just throw a spell at higher Force, and maybe get a better sustaining focus for it, depending on edition.

So, from a game balance perspective, it makes sense. It's also not obviously unbalanced, there's not a lot of abuses that can happen, since it had to be done in game.
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binarywraith
post Dec 31 2014, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 31 2014, 02:00 AM) *
Well, while it may be "realistic", it also unfairly screws over cybered characters.

In every edition, going from Wired 2 to Wired 3 is a big step. Wired 3 costs a lot, so a cybered character will be saving up for a long time to get it. If we allowed upgrades, allowed someone to just pay the difference between 2 and 3, then it becomes a lot more feasable. *Especially* in SR5, where you can't start with it.

And when you compare it to other similar abilities, the difference is stark. Adepts can just upgrade by paying the difference. Mages can just throw a spell at higher Force, and maybe get a better sustaining focus for it, depending on edition.

So, from a game balance perspective, it makes sense. It's also not obviously unbalanced, there's not a lot of abuses that can happen, since it had to be done in game.


I'm not seeing how it unfairly hits them. Getting a better focus for a spell is an all-or-nothing replacement as well, as you mention. It's more expensive, yes, but that's a balance issue we could go 'round with for years without a satisfactory solution that equates the karma costs of Adept powers to the nuyen costs of cyber that they duplicate. If you're that worried about it, just apply more of the rules that are already present and let your Sammy hock his used cyber to recoup some costs. If his cyberdoc's a Contact, he might even be able to trade the leftovers for a straight-up discount.
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apple
post Dec 31 2014, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Dec 31 2014, 02:48 AM) *
I rather prefer it this way. Booster 2 is a completely different device than Booster 1, in the same way that the different flavors of bone lacing are different devices entirely. It makes perfect sense that an 'upgrade' would require replacing most if not all of a previous lower powered implant to get proper effect.


Not really, at least not necessarily. Similar to a cmputer it is possible that you can "upgrade" the processing power, that you simply add additional adrenalin injectors (or add new muscle stains for muscle toner bioware and new CPUs for your encephalon). It is strictly a game design / game balance decision and in that case I am in favor of chaning that for cybered chars, especially in a setting where the prices have gone up, in some cases by the factor of 10.

And only few people would argue that mages and adepts ware underpowered in any SR edition. Usually you donīt need to upgrade your foci because you already receive them on "endgame" power level.

SYL
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sk8bcn
post Dec 31 2014, 08:50 AM
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Why would you need a rule for that? The only thing that matters is at which price the doc buys you your old cyberware. Decide that it's at 100% of the original price and it's over. Why the requierement of a rule?
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Cain
post Dec 31 2014, 09:16 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Dec 31 2014, 12:32 AM) *
I'm not seeing how it unfairly hits them. Getting a better focus for a spell is an all-or-nothing replacement as well, as you mention. It's more expensive, yes, but that's a balance issue we could go 'round with for years without a satisfactory solution that equates the karma costs of Adept powers to the nuyen costs of cyber that they duplicate. If you're that worried about it, just apply more of the rules that are already present and let your Sammy hock his used cyber to recoup some costs. If his cyberdoc's a Contact, he might even be able to trade the leftovers for a straight-up discount.

That still puts sams at a really huge disadvantage, though; they only get a fraction of the value back, while adepts keep everything, and mages can theoretically increase a focus or build one themselves.

I'll use 5e as an example, although it could apply to any edition. Right now, if you want Wired 3, you need to save up 217,000 nuyen. I've been playing a lot of Missions, and the runs I've seen top out at about 10,000 nuyen each, and 6-8 karma. So, on a good set of runs, you can afford it after 21 Missions, assuming you don't spend any nuyen on things like Lifestyle, ammo, replacement armor, etc.

So, let's say we allow a sam to trade in his Wired 2. Well, since selling stuff in only gets you 20% of the value (if that), he now only needs to save up 187,200 nuyen. Which is a reduction, but still will take 19 runs to get.

An adept, though? The difference between IR2 and IR3 is 1PP, or one initiation. That can be done for 13 karma, so an adept can probably do it after two Missions.

So, you can see there's a huge difference. It's different in every edition, but it's pretty clear.

QUOTE
And only few people would argue that mages and adepts ware underpowered in any SR edition. Usually you donīt need to upgrade your foci because you already receive them on "endgame" power level.

Physical adepts in SR1 were a bit underpowered. Their PP costs were somewhat higher, and they mostly focused on melee combat. It wasn't until later that they became the skill monsters of the game.
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apple
post Dec 31 2014, 09:48 AM
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It was the case in SR4 too, because WR3 was too costly in essense, so you went SB3 in the long run. But usually you did not upgraded, you bought SB3 in one action. Same goes for example for ally spirits: you are punished if you "nurture" an ally spirit from force 2 or 3 up to judgement day force, double karma price. Why?

(and yes, i make a difference for magic things which can be achieved in 2-4 runs or need two dozen runs)

SYL
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Cain
post Dec 31 2014, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Dec 31 2014, 03:58 AM) *
Generally that was something I saw solved in-game by having gear and access to high-end cyberdocs be payouts for appropriately nasty runs for fixers the team trusts. Doesn't much help for Missions and the like, which are pure RAW, though.

I don't think Shadowrun's ever managed to get the payout per run numbers right. It's difficult to find a good balance that lets Sammies, Riggers, and Deckers get meaningful upgrades while still keeping the hardscrabble roots of the 'punk' in cyberpunk.

It's possible, though. For a while, I was toying with the idea of a no-Karma award game. You just got cash-- more than the usual, but only cash. Then, you could use a cash-for-karma conversion to use to raise skills and attributes, that sort of thing. You could represent it by gym memberships, instructor fees, etc. If you were magical, it represented expensive karmic giveaways, spiritual exploration, and so on.

The advantage with this would be that you'd completely do away with the silly dual-advancement track issue. The problem is that it'd take a lot of fine tuning to get it right, and you'd be overemphasizing money over morality.

On the flip side would be the all-karma campaign. It's less believable, but in theory it could work as well.
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Sendaz
post Dec 31 2014, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 31 2014, 07:50 AM) *
It's possible, though. For a while, I was toying with the idea of a no-Karma award game. You just got cash-- more than the usual, but only cash. Then, you could use a cash-for-karma conversion to use to raise skills and attributes, that sort of thing. You could represent it by gym memberships, instructor fees, etc. If you were magical, it represented expensive karmic giveaways, spiritual exploration, and so on.


that has potential, but then is Karma totally gone mechanic wise?

and if so how does karma payments to spirits work? Could do it in valuable stuff, like fancy perfumes for an air elemental, exotic wood for a fire elemental I suppose
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Cain
post Dec 31 2014, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Dec 31 2014, 09:12 AM) *
that has potential, but then is Karma totally gone mechanic wise?

and if so how does karma payments to spirits work? Could do it in valuable stuff, like fancy perfumes for an air elemental, exotic wood for a fire elemental I suppose

Not totally gone, you just stop awarding it. Instead, you award more cash than usual, and allow a decent cash-for-karma conversion rate.

In the case you mention, you could represent it as valuable offerings to the spirit, donations to a cause in their honor, or whatever else works.
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Shortstraw
post Jan 1 2015, 12:22 AM
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To be honest the missions working for the man/working for the people is good enough for me (you get to trade nuyen/karma once per mission).
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Stahlseele
post Jan 1 2015, 02:07 AM
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Err, i think there were upgrade rules where if you went from Wired Reflexes 1 Standard Grade to Wired Reflexes 2 Standard grade for example, you only paid the difference . .
But going from standard to alpha meant ripping out the old and replacing it with the new stuff completely. Which got especially bad when you take bonelacing and limbs and stuff like wired reflexes and mbw into account.
But don't ask me where i read those, might have been some house rules for all i know . .

Still, this makes upgrading basically impossible for the most part . . if you want to have upgrade options available, you basically need to heavily gimp your augmented character by leaving enough essence in them to fit stuff in later on.
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