SINs, Renamed to: Let's argue about SINs Options

[Cain]

I'm really not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse here or not, but "linked" and "combined" do not mean the same thing. My social security number is "linked" to all my financial records but obtaining it does not grant you access to query all my financial records.

You are derailing this conversation and I would prefer that not happen...

I'll try not to, but I'd like one more try.

One thing the new matrix does is track everything you do, and reports that information to nearly everyone. Stores not only know who you are, they know what your purchase history is, and can tailor AR ads based on both what you've bought, and how much you have in your accounts right now. Another example, straight from the books, is the smart fridge-- your fridge not only knows what you've eaten, it knows roughly how fast you go through certain foods, and will automatically order new food before you run out. All this is possible because of the SIN system, at least according to the bit in SR5.

What we see is that this information *is* combined, at least in part. Because you only broadcast your SIN when you go down the mall-- not your bank accounts and purchase history-- the store must have enough information to run that history, and come back with a set of tailored ads. That includes the ability to query your current balanced and presumably get your credit history. The smart fridge can do more than just predict when you'll run out of eggs, it can purchase more on your behalf, so it also has access to your bank information.

My idea is that your SIN is inextricably combined with all your official financial information. What matters is the level of transaction: in order to spend any money, you need to do a R1 check, to spend more than 100 nuyen, you need a R2 check, and so on. This is consistent with the rules that were started in Sr1 and sort of continued through Sr3.

How this would work in practice is like this: As you walk down the mall, your SIN is repeatedly queried, and your information accessed (Casual check). You stop for a soy-latte, quickly approving it by entering your PIN (R1 check) and your display comes back with a really great sale further down. You head down and buy several thousand nuyen of the latest consumer electronics-- maybe new music players and game consoles for the whole family, or maybe just a Macbook (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) -- and run your balance. Now you have to do a biometric and PIN check, because your account won't approve that much without extra security.

So, for all intents and purposes, all your accounts *are* combined-- by accessing your SIN, I know every purchase you've ever made, how much is in all of your accounts, and so on. What I can't do is use it to buy stuff, at least not without verifying that the SIN is not just valid, but belongs to me.

[Sengir]

Anyway, not only does a SIN link to all your information, in some cases it's all you need to access that information (or money). There's an example in one of the books about wifi purchases-- you just throw what you want into a bag, and walk out. The wifi detects your purchases and your SIN, bills you appropriately, and off you go. It's kind of like the paypoint card readers-- you don't need a PIN, the physical card is enough. In this case, just broadcasting the right SIN is enough--but that only works if the SIN itself is very very secure.

It also works in my scenario, where the SIN is just a number used to look up data at the SIN registry: Cams at the store record the visitors height, sex, appropriate age, and facial biometrics and send the whole package to the GSR. If the GSR gives the go-ahead everything is fine, else raise an alert. Foolproof? No less than checking the signature on a credit card.

[Smash]

I'd like to add that Google (and facebook to a lesser degree) are quite good at putting adds up in my email, profile etc based on my browsing history without necessarily (I say 'necessarily' because I'm confident that Google doesn't have access to my tax returns and bank accounts, not 100% sure, and would be horrified if they do) having intimate details like my tax records, credit rating, bank accounts, etc.

That's not to say that this is how it works in Shadowrun as I'm a big proponent of 'realism be damned!' but this does say that perhaps it doesn't need to be as invasive as you suggest Cain for it to be logically consistent.

[Cain]

It also works in my scenario, where the SIN is just a number used to look up data at the SIN registry: Cams at the store record the visitors height, sex, appropriate age, and facial biometrics and send the whole package to the GSR. If the GSR gives the go-ahead everything is fine, else raise an alert. Foolproof? No less than checking the signature on a credit card.

True, but the point is that the SIN and banking information have to be linked for that to work. If the only information you give off is your SIN, that has to be enough to access your purchase history and allow you to buy stuff.

I'd like to add that Google (and facebook to a lesser degree) are quite good at putting adds up in my email, profile etc based on my browsing history without necessarily (I say 'necessarily' because I'm confident that Google doesn't have access to my tax returns and bank accounts, not 100% sure, and would be horrified if they do) having intimate details like my tax records, credit rating, bank accounts, etc.

That's not to say that this is how it works in Shadowrun as I'm a big proponent of 'realism be damned!' but this does say that perhaps it doesn't need to be as invasive as you suggest Cain for it to be logically consistent.

Well, that's because nowadays, there isn't a single information point quite like a SIN. But even where things come close, we can get a lot of information.

Right now, the closest thing to a SIN is your social security number-- in theory, you can't get a job, have a bank account of credit card, or go to college without one. (In practice, it's somewhat different, but that *is* a derail.) Now, even though your SSN is distinct from your bank account and credit information, if I get a hold of your SSN I can track down a lot of that info. For example, I can use it to run your credit report, which not only tells me what accounts you have active, but every check made on you in the past. So, I can find out not only what accounts you have now, but what accounts you tried to open.

Now, let's extend it to Shadowrun. We know that a SIN links together every bit of data on you, so you can find everything all at once. So, at the very least, it skips a few steps: I wouldn't run your SIN and credit history separately, for starters, those would come as a package deal. Thus, I would not just know what accounts you have, I'd know every one you ever did have, and I'd have an idea of the standing of each. This is no different than today, since you can get a lot of this just by running a credit report. On top of that, just having your SIN is, in some cases, enough to handle money on your behalf. By using a combination of my SSN and checking account number, employers can direct deposit a paycheck, for example. Heck, with just your account number, anyone can deposit money to you. But the important part is that under some cases, you don't need your identity verified to purchase things, both today and in Shadowrun. The difference is, right now, that depends on what ID you do have. In Shadowrun, there's only one ID: your SIN.

[binarywraith]

Right now, the closest thing to a SIN is your social security number-- in theory, you can't get a job, have a bank account of credit card, or go to college without one. (In practice, it's somewhat different, but that *is* a derail.)

Pretty apt, actually. The cash-only or forged SSN market for illegal immigrant labor today is pretty much exactly what the SINless' job prospects look like in the 2050's. Especially given that a lot of the things you want to buy today want a major corp-backed credit/debit card. Main difference being that social services in the 2050's demand a SIN as well.

[Sengir]

True, but the point is that the SIN and banking information have to be linked for that to work. If the only information you give off is your SIN, that has to be enough to access your purchase history and allow you to buy stuff.

OK, so in addition the store node has to query the visitor's commlink for his account number...also can be done automatically in the background, no biggie.

(This would obviously greatly profit from online authentication, so the commlink knows it's talking to an authorized node. I suggest assuming that SIN checks over the matrix and nodes identifying themselves simply work, real-life authentication and identification systems are extremely complex affairs and SR's lack of secure encryption would make it even worse. Unless you are aiming for a Turing Award, handwave it)


@BW: What are those "social services" you're talking about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

OK, so in addition the store node has to query the visitor's commlink for his account number...also can be done automatically in the background, no biggie.

(This would obviously greatly profit from online authentication, so the commlink knows it's talking to an authorized node. I suggest assuming that SIN checks over the matrix and nodes identifying themselves simply work, real-life authentication and identification systems are extremely complex affairs and SR's lack of secure encryption would make it even worse. Unless you are aiming for a Turing Award, handwave it)

What I'm getting at is that your SIN and bank account information would be so close, a distinction is meaningless. If I have your SIN, I have your account balances, purchase history, everything.

To an extent, this is true now. If I have your SSN, I can pull your credit report, which lists all your accounts, major credit purchases, addresses for the last 7 years, and so on. Since a SIN tags all that info, it actually saves a few steps, makes it easier.

[Shemhazai]

What I'm getting at is that your SIN and bank account information would be so close, a distinction is meaningless. If I have your SIN, I have your account balances, purchase history, everything.

To an extent, this is true now. If I have your SSN, I can pull your credit report, which lists all your accounts, major credit purchases, addresses for the last 7 years, and so on. Since a SIN tags all that info, it actually saves a few steps, makes it easier.

I don't believe this is so according to the rules. If it were, everybody would have access to everything.

There is a small amount of info in the SIN itself, and the system contains more information in their secure data stores. High-end SIN checkers can make random queries to externally verify that a piece of information in the GSINR data store matches something in another one. It does not logically follow that a person with the SIN can browse this information.

Even if some entities can do this, such as legal authorities or corporate merchants, it does not mean that all people are able to.

[Cain]

I don't believe this is so according to the rules. If it were, everybody would have access to everything.

Sadly, it is.

According to Sr5, a SIN links together every bit of information about you on the Matrix. Every legal piece of data on you is connected via your SIN. So, at the very least, running your SIN will give them access to everything on you in one search. Unlike today, where you have to go digging in many different places, your SIN brings it all to one simple check.

Let's say someone-- maybe an employer?-- wants to look at your second grade report card. Assuming your grade school even has that information on a computer (if mine is, it's on ENIAC) and can be accessed on the web (my daughter's can), today you'd still need to go through a lot of hoops to get it. In Shadowrun? All you need is the SIN. If they can convince the system they have a right to that information (like some strange pre-employment check), it would be easy to track down, since it's all grouped together.

There is a small amount of info in the SIN itself, and the system contains more information in their secure data stores. High-end SIN checkers can make random queries to externally verify that a piece of information in the GSINR data store matches something in another one. It does not logically follow that a person with the SIN can browse this information.

Even if some entities can do this, such as legal authorities or corporate merchants, it does not mean that all people are able to.

Presumably, a basic SIN check would produce all the public information on you, and some quasi-private information, like your credit history and banking information. Since you can purchase things with a SIN alone, it has to at least point to them.

My thought is that while non-classified information is wide open, actually manipulating it takes an identity check. So, purchases under, say, $25 can be authorized without a any check, kinda like how McDonalds won't check your PIN if you buy less than $25 of "food". A bigger purchase would require a PIN or other check, and a major purchase (like a car) would take even more verification.

[Redjack]

Sadly, it is.

A number of us have stated before and appear to be continually disagreeing with your interpretation. Please cease re-hashing the same argument.

[Cain]

A number of us have stated before and appear to be continually disagreeing with your interpretation. Please cease re-hashing the same argument.

It is not my interpretation. But, I will leave a quote, then drop it.

Modern society
in 2075 produces a staggering amount of information
every second of every day: where you are, what you
buy, and what you do. With the system producing all of
these pieces of information, there needs to be an easy
way to store, track, and correlate it. All of that information
needs to be associated with a person somehow.
That’s where the SIN comes in. A SIN is issued to a person
a birth, and stays with them (baring exceptional circumstances)
for the rest of their life. A SIN identifies a
person in the global information system and is attached
to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix. No aspect of modern or legal life can function
without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a
job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street. To
the system, these people don’t exist.

[Redjack]

by accessing your SIN, I know every purchase you've ever made, how much is in all of your accounts, and so on.

running your SIN will give them access to everything on you in one search. Unlike today, where you have to go digging in many different places, your SIN brings it all to one simple check.

And I will end with quoting you and the way you twist the the quote from the book that many of us disagree with that you, that you simply won't acknowledge... which is why it is so frustrating to try have a conversation with you because once you get an interpretation into you head you only accept your interpretation.

[Sengir]

What I'm getting at is that your SIN and bank account information would be so close, a distinction is meaningless. If I have your SIN, I have your account balances, purchase history, everything.

No, you don't. Just because my bank account number is tied to my purchase history inside Amazon's data stores, you don't get my purchase history from just knowing my account number. It's a purely local association between two datums

[Sendaz]

If the system required the SIN, why does the system not force SINs upon the SINless?
It is an authoritarian action, that falls well in line with the fluff.
In this scenario I might not be hindered in buying anything, if I am SINless,
but I might be arrested if the autorities catch me, and forcefully assigned a SIN.

There is something to the concept, the cops could just charge a SINless with vagrancy/squatting/etc since technically a SINless can't possess property/get a normal job/etc and in the process assign a Criminal SIN.

What usually stops this is paperwork and the cops inate hatred of doing extra paperwork of processing the poor slob through the system.

So unless the guy is really being a nuisance or straying into the nicer parts of town where they can be seen by Mr. Exec and his corpspawn, they rather just leave them in their dumps.

[binarywraith]

No, you don't. Just because my bank account number is tied to my purchase history inside Amazon's data stores, you don't get my purchase history from just knowing my account number. It's a purely local association between two datums

You're making a faulty assumption here that the Matrix circa 2070 works like the Internet circa 2014.

It doesn't. It is far, far more invasive. A more apt comparison is 'Just because Amazon (my employer) has my Amazon credit card number and is the issuing authority for both it and my pay doesn't mean they can see what I purchase with that card'. Which is patently incorrect.

[Shev]

And I will end with quoting you and the way you twist the the quote from the book that many of us disagree with that you, that you simply won't acknowledge... which is why it is so frustrating to try have a conversation with you because once you get an interpretation into you head you only accept your interpretation.

I honestly don't see how he's "twisting" the quote. The quote makes it clear that the SIN is attached to EVERYTHING about you. It ties all that info about you into one neat little package to make it easier to scan and track you.

[Sengir]

You're making a faulty assumption here that the Matrix circa 2070 works like the Internet circa 2014.

The underlying technology has nothing to do with it, my assumption is that the business where the association between purchase history and account number, or SIN and account number, does not feed this information into a global and publicly accessible database.

[Cain]

The underlying technology has nothing to do with it, my assumption is that the business where the association between purchase history and account number, or SIN and account number, does not feed this information into a global and publicly accessible database.

It kind of does right now. It's just that there's no central collection database to make it easy to get.

Let me try an example. My daughter is really into My Little Pony. A few years back, she got a couple hundred bucks for her birthday, so I took her to Toys R Us so she could go on a shopping spree. Because I'm from Oregon, I don't pay sales tax in Washington, so she had me pay for everything. They offered me a discount if I signed up for their rewards program and applied for one of their credit cards, so I did so. I didn't actually get the credit card, but it still went into the system. I did give them a spamcatcher email, but otherwise, my information was generally accurate.

Several years later, I still get ads from them in my email. Targeted ads, too-- they focus on sales on MLP and Monster High dolls, even though I've bought other things from them since. Because I listed my address, they don't send me sales from Seattle-- they only list sales from local stores. I also get credit card offers that are linked to them-- many list their partnered stores, and for some reason, Toys R Us is there most of the time.

Now, you're going to argue that this doesn't mean they'll share that information. And on the privacy policy, it even says in big bold letters: "We don't share this information with anyone!" Of course, I missed the fine print, that says something to the effect of: "Except as allowed by law and with our marketing partners". Basically, they can share that information with anyone if they feel like it: if someone wanted to buy their marketing list, that would make them a marketing partner, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) And "by law" is also really flexible-- anyone wanting to check my credit, for example, has a legal right to this information. I'm pretty sure that the explosion of spam in that email all traces back to that day.

Right now, anyone who checks my credit report (and there's a lot of reasons why that might happen) will be able to see that three years ago, I applied for a credit card at Toys R Us. If someone felt like investigating further, it wouldn't be too hard to get the detailed information, on every purchase I made since then. And that's today, without SINs to tie everything together and massive computers to correlate the information.

This information is all out there, right now. Using just servers that are public, or effectively public, I can track down tons of information on myself. And I keep a very low profile-- I can track down more on my daughter without trying, and she's too young to have a bank account! With a central indexing system, it all becomes much easier.

[Sendaz]

@Cain: That is a good point about the MLP and spam connection. But with the added centralization I imagine they also set up more fences around said information as knowledge is power.

It has to come down to levels of access.

If say I happen to subscribe to the 'Big Booty and Toothy Orc Cheerleaders' E-zine (what? They have many fine editorial articles... don't judge me) who exactly gets to see that information?

While this information is tied into my purchase history of my subscription, not every Tom, Dick and Harry probably can access this easily.

So if I go down to the local StufferShack for some soymilk, the owner probably should not automatically know my preference for Orcs w/ pompoms and massive underbites just from my stopping in for fresh squeezed soy.

There must be some sort of access levels assigned, for the StufferShack owner his level of access would include my current balance (showing I am good for the purchase), items relevant to my purchase and any items he is selling in his shop. He should not have access to information about items he doesn't carry as it is not relevant to his need to know.

If on the other hand I apply to work with a charity catering to young underprivileged orc children, a more thorough scan turning up my purchase history of said adult e-zine may disqualify me from the job as a possible predator in the making.

Obviously the higher up the ladder you go, or the better you are at getting into those systems, the more access they would have to you and your life, so a Cop on a routine check may pull up some details on a casual search, but could request a full rundown if there was a cause for suspicion (real or otherwise in their opinion)

Likewise a PI knows who to schmooze for details or a hacker could do some digging to get at the dirt, but this should again taking some work on their part to get that level of access.

[Cain]

@Cain: That is a good point about the MLP and spam connection. But with the added centralization I imagine they also set up more fences around said information as knowledge is power.

It has to come down to levels of access.

Well, sorta.

The point is this sort of information is out there. Anyone who wants to bother will see I spent over $200 on My Little Pony stuff a few years ago. Rather or not they want to go that far is another question.

think thatthat than in Shadowrun, marketing programs have become much better than they are now. Even if they have access to my full purchase history, they don't necessarily need all of that, at least not at the store level. Right now, what I figure Toys R Us is doing with my info is, they're tracking what I spent the most money on, and targeting ads based on that. They don't seem to send me a lot on nerf guns, even though I occasionally buy them-- probably because I only bought one on sale for $14.99.

Let's move this to Shadowrun. I walk into Toys R Us in 2075, and they scan my SIN. They could theoretically look at every purchase I ever made, but they're going to center on toy purchases made fairly recently. Someone might notice that I have a subscription to "Hot Cheerleader Trollz!", but since it doesn't factor into the marketing program, they ignore it, and instead send me ads based on my family composition, my budget, and what toys I've bought recently. Same happens at the Stuffer Shack: their programs don't pay attention to that sort of thing, so it doesn't pop up.

However, if I apply for a pastor job at a local church? Yeah, then they'll be looking for that sort of thing, and it could easily pop up.

There must be some sort of access levels assigned, for the StufferShack owner his level of access would include my current balance (showing I am good for the purchase), items relevant to my purchase and any items he is selling in his shop. He should not have access to information about items he doesn't carry as it is not relevant to his need to know.

That's one of the flaws of the post-SR4 world. Everyone is living in a panopticon, and privacy is essentially a thing of the past. That's one of the *themes* they went for: only criminals and the very rich can afford privacy. I agree with you that living in such a world would be horrifying, but that appears to be the kind of world the developers wanted.

[Sengir]

This information is all out there, right now. Using just servers that are public, or effectively public, I can track down tons of information on myself. And I keep a very low profile-- I can track down more on my daughter without trying, and she's too young to have a bank account! With a central indexing system, it all becomes much easier.

It would become easier, if such a central, public database fed with every association between any two datums (let's call it "Samaritan" for short...) existed. Your story actually points out one of the reasons why it does not, the knowledge of such associations is worth money...

[Cain]

It would become easier, if such a central, public database fed with every association between any two datums (let's call it "Samaritan" for short...) existed. Your story actually points out one of the reasons why it does not, the knowledge of such associations is worth money...

Information sharing is worth more money, though, Right now, consumer data is a big industry-- people make a living gathering this sort on information on consumers, and reselling it to anyone willing to buy. Extending this to Shadowrun, corporations have learned to cooperate with each other more, so sharing this level of information would profit them all. Mitsuhama doesn't have to spend millions figuring out how to get data on Ares wageslaves, they just need to trade the info on their own.

Also, remember that the association does exist-- that's the stated purpose of a SIN in 5e. I can see an argument over rather or not a central database exists, but the SIN does index and link every legal piece of information about you. That might even be the exact quote. And honestly, with that, I don't see why a central database would even be needed.

I used the SSN/Credit Report example earlier. I was a little inexact, because there are three credit reporting agencies here, and their reports can vary somewhat. I don't think they share information, but they do draw off the same sources, and in order to do a full check you'd technically need to send a separate query to each of them. With my SSN, it's not too hard to run all three, it's just time consuming.

With that in mind, there are services out there who basically charge you for free information: they offer to run all three reports for you. You give up your personal details, like your SSN, and then all they do is run the reports. It's nothing you can't do yourself, but people *pay* them for the convenience of not sending in three requests. And that's on the consumer level-- on the corporate level, there are professional credit checking agencies, who basically do nothing but get paid to run all three reports and give the information to a company. This happens all the time, too-- when I moved into my current place, they ran a background check on me. I had to pay the rental company an application fee, and most of what they did was run the credit reports.

So, today, there are companies that make a profit off collecting the information from distributed databases. In Shadowrun, the megas cut out the middleman wherever possible, so they'd do more of that in-house. Add to that the tagging ability of a SIN, and getting all this information in one place would not only be easier, but more profitable, since it takes less effort. Combined with data sharing for consumer information, and it'd be really easy.

On top of that, remember that as of SR4, privacy is basically a thing of the past. There is literally no one defending your right to privacy, the system is designed to be as invasive as possible while still giving you bread and circuses. You can't say "no one would accept the loss of privacy", because that's actually an underlying premise of the wireless Matrix. That's what they built the system to do.

[binarywraith]

@Cain: That is a good point about the MLP and spam connection. But with the added centralization I imagine they also set up more fences around said information as knowledge is power.

Why exactly would they do this again? Knowledge is power, and behaving as corporations do today by not correlating all the information their departments have on a person is a handicap the megas have no reason to abide by. Especially when they pay many of their employees in corpscrip, and have every reason to gather and correlate everything they can about their non-employees in order to assess their value as customers as well as their usefulness to rivals.

Hell, if you think that doesn't happen now, you're not paying attention to how Google decides what ads to send you based on your search results, amazon purchasing history, contents of your gmail messages...

[Sengir]

Extending this to Shadowrun, corporations have learned to cooperate with each other more

May I remind you of the bolded word's meaning? Balkanisation and begrudging the competition even the tiniest advantage are the name of the game, so while Stuffer Shack will of course try to find out as much as they can about individual customers, they will not turn all that info over to Ares.

but the SIN does index and link every legal piece of information about you.

And here we are going in cycles again, because keep insisting that just because because my bank account number is associated with purchases I make, everybody with that number magically knows all these associations.

[Cain]

May I remind you of the bolded word's meaning? Balkanisation and begrudging the competition even the tiniest advantage are the name of the game, so while Stuffer Shack will of course try to find out as much as they can about individual customers, they will not turn all that info over to Ares.

Countries have balkanized. Corporations have organized under the Corporate Court. The megas aren't competing with each other as much as they're splitting the pie.

And here we are going in cycles again, because keep insisting that just because because my bank account number is associated with purchases I make, everybody with that number magically knows all these associations.

Now you're making a leap I didn't make. No, it doesn't mean everyone knows them all, but it *does* mean they're much easier to find.

I keep a low profile on the internet, and I have a very common name. So, if I google my name, it's not easy to find information specifically on me. There's too much to sort through for any person to figure out which is me, and which is someone else. However, not only does 4e presume we have more powerful search engines, it also supposes a lot more computing power to sort through those hits. On top of that, there's the SIN to consider: every SIN is a unique identifier, so I can easily pick out which John Smith I'm looking for.

Even though I try to be private, there is a lot of information about me on the web. Really, my only defense is that there is no one single identifier people can use to track me down. You'd need several pieces of key info to be sure you got me, and not someone else-- my SSN, mother's maiden name, my maiden name, phone number, past addresses, etc. However, in 2070, there *is* a single identifier. So, if someone does a credit check on John Smith, they don't have to figure out which of the six million John Smiths they want, they can go straight to that one.

Besides which, it can work that way today. Let's say someone wants to track my transaction history. They don't know where I do my banking, but they do have my real name and SSN. So, they run a credit check. Credit reports have a huge amount of information: mine reveals what colleges I've been to, the state of my student loans, every credit card I've applied for, and which banks I have accounts at. It doesn't give them my account number, but once they find my bank, it's not too hard to pose as a creditor and track down that information, as well as my current balances. (Actually removing money is a bit harder, but only a bit-- I got scammed by someone who got my account number, and I had to close the account to protect myself). A little more digging can turn up my statements, so they know everything I've purchased in the last month.

Back to 2070: according to what I see, running a SIN check is, at the very least, equal to running a credit report. So, they get your address, banks you work with, state of your home and student loans, major credit purchases, all that. On top of that, the SIN links to every other piece of information about you on the Matrix. It might not automatically give it to you, but it does point the way. Even if there isn't a central database for all this information, it is all cross-tagged, so it's very easy to track down the information you want.