Them bloody rules again!, Got some doubts... Options

[melquisedeq]

Another fine SR3 session done, here are some doubts and thoughts on rules to which I'd like to apply Dumpshock's finest minds, if I may:

1) Titanium bone lacing is a bit much, no? Our resident ork razorgal adds those +4 to her already pretty high Str of 8... Str 12 means that, given enough time, she can go around punching through walls, or casually stroll through a normal locked door like a normal person would walk through cling film.
Also, her player wanted to add hardliner glove bonus to the mix, but I said no, no, no. Was it a good call, or am I just a dick GM who revels in stomping down on his players' fun?

2) How can I rein in Masking a little bit... our mage initiated fairly early in the campaign, and bought Masking. Basically, he now interprets it as carte blanche to go astral everywhere and anywhere, free from detection or at least suspicion. There are plenty of situations I want to restrict access to astral space under penalty of being spotted and attacked, which he claims wouldn't happen because he comes across as a natural astral entity.

He also seems to believe that Masking renders him immune to "geek the mage first", because unless he really goes out there and makes an active effort to be identified as such, by needlessly waving his arms about and chanting loudly or whatever, no one would ever know he was the mage. Not even astrally perceiving entities, if he chooses to mask his casting as well.
We're all aware that other Masking initiates exist out there, but it's not really fair if I make every awakened opposition out there now suddenly have Masking as well just to counter him.

3) On the same note, how can I rein in Improved Invisibility a bit? These guys literally cast it willy nilly, they walk around with invisible shotguns and rifles. Their single stealth infiltration tactic is to cast invisibility on the razorgal, she takes point, and upon reaching enemies she sneaks behind them and they "Hammer and Anvil" them into bits. I've recently noticed that I wasn't applying the Object Resistance rule to things, which will curb the use of Invisibility in items, but I find it's personal use to be excessive still, especially in a team of 4 that has a mage and a shaman both capable of casting it, one of which can sustain at +1 instead of +2 because of an edge. It's hard to even ponder bluff or diplomacy infiltrations when invisibility makes it far too easy.

4) How can I make insect spirits more menacing without bumping every lowly drone's force into the atmosphere? We're running Queen Euphoria, and (spoiler alert) gearing up for the grand finale assault on the Amber Gel production facility. I've managed to keep a real tone of menace, even for my unusually hard to impress, hubris laden players. My description of the second kidnapping was suitably bloody, the true form hit on Burroughs was pretty intense (practically sliced the guy in half in one hit in front of them, then split before their unarmed asses could even blink), and meeting the shop scene with the feeble Van Willis was rather successfully creepy.

However, the single time these guys squared off against the ants, they positively trashed them in seconds. At the Van Willis scene, I had a couple flesh-form soldiers rush out and jump the guys. The first one got an Enfield burst and went down in one go, didn't even realise what was up. I surreptitiously upped the other one's force to 6, but he still went down the next pass with another burst, after ineffectively lunging at the shaman. I actually had to pretend they were intensely weird and creepy but otherwise normal humans, so the players wouldn't get the feeling that ant spirits are pushovers after all...

I've already had an anti-climatic battle with Pride the Lion shaman in this campaign, would gut me if going through the ants' nest turned out to be a cakewalk for the players. Any suggestions on how to run it effectively? I'm thinking no light sources except flashlights fitted to the weapons, a couple swarms of flesh forms, perhaps even a troll flesh-form soldier crashing through a wall for shits and giggles, one or two true-form flash materializations to keep them on their toes, heavy background count plus astral space swarming with ants to keep the team's awakened afraid to go there, and then a rather protracted fight with a slightly-improved Craft making judicious use of area-effect manipulation spells as the stronger true-forms descend on the team. Anything else?

5) 'Ready Weapon' simple action: am I right in requiring it every time the weapon is not carried in "ready" position (using both hands, pointing downwards, only needing a quick movement upwards to point it forward at a target), even if it' already in hand and not just in a holster? Or does it literally represent the motions of retrieving a gun into your hands from somewhere else, and thus it only needs to be brought up basically once per combat, maybe never if trouble is expected?
On a similar note, I also require characters who got passively engaged in melee this round to spend a ready action if they want to shoot. I imagine them having to drop the ready stance in order to stave off their melee assailant, thus needing to readjust it before they can shoot again. Right or wrong?

6) Shooting into melee, and shooting while in melee... So confusing to me! Can someone please explain the process plus what modifiers apply?
X and Y are duking it out. I want to nip Y in the leg because X is my mate. What are the odds that X gets tagged instead of Y? How much more difficult is my shot, since they're probably both moving around (even if none declared a move action in their respective turns)? What if there's more people involved? What if I'm using a shotgun, or burst-fire, or full auto?

What about when I suck at unarmed, and get rushed by some fool. I want to draw and shoot the guy as he spits his kiai in my face. What rolls need to get done? What modifiers? Is it different if I'm using a pistol or a rifle? Is it different if I'm single-shooting or burst-firing? Is it different if there's mates or foes involved in the same melee? Do they get free attacks? What?
Also, is it possible to withdraw from melee in order to avoid any ranged penalties? If so, how?

7) Shotguns... are they mad powerful or am I missing something? Razorgal has a trusty Franchi Spas-22. Folded stock under a great coat, she can pretty much carry it everywhere that doesn't have MAD's. Loaded with slugs, it spits 13D bursts that are completely compensated by her high strength, level 4 gas vent, custom grip, stock, and whatever else. This weapon has pretty much been the bane of BBEGs in this campaign, a single hit brings them straight into the death spiral and down from "in control of the scene" to "just wanting to escape". Really high Power allows it to shoot straight through most things, from a wooden door to a couch used as cover.

Reading the book, I don't think I'm missing any restriction to shotguns, but given the verified, systematic discrepancy in combat efficacy between our shotgun-wielding babe and everyone else in the campaign, I really need to ask. She really is on a league of her own in hard kills, even against herself when using other weapon types.

I think this is all for now. Thanks for looking and thanks in advance for any help.

TL;DR = this post is not for you. Thanks anyway.

[Stahlseele]

1.) that has been such a point of discussion for so many years on dumpshock, i am not sure we ever got to a definitive answer on the question wether or not hardliner gloves would help with the close combat damage . .
Also, yes, she SHOULD be able to walk through doors just like that. She is, in effect, a Pocket-Troll with that single augmentation.

2.) As soon as he goes astral . . how is masking going to help him? Masking (the basic one at least as far as i remember) just makes you look like a mundane to other awakened prople scanning you, right? As soon as you go out of your body, it's kind of obvious right?

3.) Ultrasound will show invisible stuff. Otherwise, background count to reign in magic. Active Wards will drop spells i think.

4.) What doe insects, specifically ants and other swarm/hive insects, usually have on their side? Numbers. Flood them. If they don't start using AOE weapons and effects, they will go down fast.

5.) No clue actually, i don't think the rules ever got into that one.

6.) The chances of accidentally hitting your own buddy are pretty much nil according to the rules. Only on a critical glitch, maybe on a normal glitch would i accept that. The shooting into melee gets a +2? or so to the usual to hit TN because you are trying to hit something that is NOT your buddy. Burst fire is no different. Shotguns, see choke/cone of fire rules.
Shooting while in melee gets a flat mod to the TN as well, no matter what weapon you use. There are no free attacks. withdrawing from melee usually means turning around and legging it and hoping you are faster. or having somebody else give you firesupport.

7.) Yes, SHOTGUNS ARE POWERFULL! Huge surprise there O.o They are big and unwieldy and loud and flashy and can not be silenced and MAD scanners are cheap and should be more or less common in high rate parts of town and otherwise, a pat down in the seedier parts of town will probably reveal it as well. Did he/she/it have to reload yet? Because the other main problem of shotguns is that they usually can have less ammo than most heavy pistols and because of their internal magazine need to be loaded manually, not by clip out, clip in.
Shotguns start to lose out against automatic weapons as soon as the opposition has heavier ballistic armor, because automatic weapons get a higher power in addition to the higher damage which makes the TN to resist damage higher.
Generally speaking, combat in SR3 especially is a game of glass cannons usually. Especially if you treat it like stand and deliver high noon at the OK corral. If you factor in things like cover, lighting and other vision modifiers, it can get a bit more drawn out as well. And the only time when a runner team should consider getting into a firefight is on their way out, not on their way in usually.

THIS IS ALL FROM MEMORY!
Might be wrong, but that's how i remember it from way too long ago.

[melquisedeq]

Thanks for the quick reply, Stahlseele.

1) OK, I'll allow her official battering ram status. Does she incur any potential damage, though? Like, say, stun damage, since her lacing only protects her structural integrity, not her skin and muscles? Bone lacing won't help if her knuckles get crushed raw down to the titanium inside, or if she gets an ear snagged off or something like that...
I'll keep hardline gloves as a no, for now. The player in question is munchkin enough as it stands, doesn't really need that +1.

2) Masking also makes your astral form come across as a natural astral entity rather than a projecting mage, if I read it correctly. Another astral entity would see you as some random spirit or something, not as your astral self.

3) True, I need to remember to use ultrasound more often...

4) Oh, not using AoE attacks is not a problem I ascribe to this group. They use them too often, if anything. Their mage has once stunballed two members of his own team just to hit one single baddie, because he doesn't have the single target version and didn't want to hold dice in order to shorten the area of effect.
But yeah, I suppose swarming could work well if done from different directions at once and possibly coupled with a few true-form manifestations straight into melee... "Steady... steady... wait for them to get close..." and then a slight shimmer in the air right behind them and "ARRRRGH! GET IT OFF ME!" Mwahahahaha!

5) I'll keep being a dick and demanding the sacrifice of a simple action. That should help melee based opposition actually matter for longer than the first attack.

6) Yeah, glitch = friendly fire is how we've been doing it. Pretty slim indeed, when everyone has at least one ranged skill at 5 or 6. Not happy with just +2, though. That's negligible in all but the most unfavourable of conditions, assuming a decent skill and the use of CB dice. Not happy with the lack of penalties for shooting while attacked in melee either. That would be a fairly logic way to encourage the use of melee. For coolness purposes if nothing else.

7) Thing is, this particular character is NOT a glass cannon. She hits hard but also takes it like a big girl, to the point that her player often boasts that pistol fire barely stands a chance to burn through. High Noon indeed, she usually chooses to just stand there, knowing full well she can soak mostly every potshot while dishing out 13D burst. And she has, unfailingly.
I suppose my problem here is that I always feel bad with changing the gameworld to adapt to the runners, instead of keeping it consistent, and this forces me to keep pistols the most used weapon in the sprawl by a long margin. It would annoy me to have to now include bucketloads of shotgun-totting gangers just to keep the world competitive to the players. But yeah, that's my problem I suppose. I might just need to get her to roll for limb loss a couple times, it should bring her player down a peg or three.

[Stahlseele]

Drones are your friend. The robotic kind, not the creepy crawly insect ones <.<
The Players probably not so much anymore after they have had their first encounter with a building with rail mounted gun drones and tank drones that fit into elevators and stairwells and halls and come from storage units in the walls i guess.
And Improved Invisibility loses so much worth as soon as you actually make use of the object resistance factor . . There is little that has a higher object resistance than a drone sensor. Force of the spell needs to equal or surpass the object resistance and then you need the hits to pull it off as well if i remember correctly . . i never liked using magic, i usually was the Munchkin Combat TROLL instead of Ork and had magic used against me quite frequently because of that . .
As for taking damage . . do remember this crucial little fact: CYBERWARE Body Mod does NOT help against chem-tech.
So, gas grenades, pepper spray. Dart Guns. It all only allows use of natural body. Not even the toughness perk helps.
So all Body Addons from Bones and Dermal-Armor/Sheath and Cyberlimbs are instantly worthless against thhat stuff.
Bioware-Skin does not add body only armor directly. The Suprathyroid Gland gives +1 Body which works against it.
And there is very specialized bioware to help with toxins and diseases, but no combat character has money/room for that usually.

[Cochise]

1) Titanium bone lacing is a bit much, no? Our resident ork razorgal adds those +4 to her already pretty high Str of 8... Str 12 means that, given enough time, she can go around punching through walls, or casually stroll through a normal locked door like a normal person would walk through cling film.
Also, her player wanted to add hardliner glove bonus to the mix, but I said no, no, no. Was it a good call, or am I just a dick GM who revels in stomping down on his players' fun?

Strictly speaking, hardliner gloves add +1 power to any otherwise "unarmed" attack that's being made. So yes, they'd add to that ork's [STR + 4 +1]M damage code when going through barriers.
And looking at the toll on the limited resource Essence it doesn't seem to be too unbalancing to me.

2) How can I rein in Masking a little bit... our mage initiated fairly early in the campaign, and bought Masking. Basically, he now interprets it as carte blanche to go astral everywhere and anywhere, free from detection or at least suspicion. There are plenty of situations I want to restrict access to astral space under penalty of being spotted and attacked, which he claims wouldn't happen because he comes across as a natural astral entity.

Someone is heavily misinterpreting the masking rules there. Certainly, a projecting magician capable of masking can hide his astral body in the sense that he can make it look like an ordinary "aura" instead but the rules on masking explicitly mention that any such attempt will fall rather short because any astral observer would pretty much instantly note that the "aura" is missing the "shadow" of the physical body. And - at least in SR3 - standard masking is not capable of creating the illusion of the projecting mage being someone/something completely different.

Oh and for the record: Any astrally present entity - like a spirit or elemental - that is tasked with astral patrol will certainly raise alarm in case an unknown astral entity (or a suspicious aura that lacks a physical body) enters their guarded territory. And while masking surely hinders successful targeting for spell casting good old astral combat (a type of melee) works just fine.

He also seems to believe that Masking renders him immune to "geek the mage first", because unless he really goes out there and makes an active effort to be identified as such, by needlessly waving his arms about and chanting loudly or whatever, no one would ever know he was the mage.

Wrong on various accounts. First of all, no amount of masking will stop bystanders to successfully notice magic being used according the rules for noticing spell casting. While masking might save him there from almost instant recognition via astral perception the active use of magic will ultimately alert people to his presence. Furthermore, any opposing mage will also notice him being present when having spell defense up and the mage targeting one of opponents under spell defense.
Finally, while non-initiated magicians cannot pierce his mask any initiated magician can just by looking at him depending on the outcome of a test that the GM conducts ... unless he's deliberately masking himself. In such cases the onlooking mage on the opponent side would have to try and deliberately pierce the mask ... something he might try after he got alerted to another mage's presence via the previously mentioned things.

Not even astrally perceiving entities, if he chooses to mask his casting as well.

Well, unless we're talking a rather high grade initiate your mage will have quite some difficulties with hiding himself and spells - even in case of deliberate masking. Without deliberate masking he's limited to a maximum of 1 force point per initiation grade. At grade 1 he could mask one force 1 spell. Deliberate masking would allow him to mask more than that, but requires him to succeed at has masking test and is an Exclusive magic action that prevents him from using other magical skills until he drops his deliberate mask.

Oh and while we're at it: No deliberate masking of a sustained spell unless it's sustained with a sustaining focus ... exclusive actions and such (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We're all aware that other Masking initiates exist out there, but it's not really fair if I make every awakened opposition out there now suddenly have Masking as well just to counter him.

No need to have masked initiates as opponents. Piercing a mask only requires being an initiate as well but not necessarily knowing the masking technique.

3) On the same note, how can I rein in Improved Invisibility a bit? These guys literally cast it willy nilly, they walk around with invisible shotguns and rifles. Their single stealth infiltration tactic is to cast invisibility on the razorgal, she takes point, and upon reaching enemies she sneaks behind them and they "Hammer and Anvil" them into bits. I've recently noticed that I wasn't applying the Object Resistance rule to things, which will curb the use of Invisibility in items, but I find it's personal use to be excessive still, especially in a team of 4 that has a mage and a shaman both capable of casting it, one of which can sustain at +1 instead of +2 because of an edge. It's hard to even ponder bluff or diplomacy infiltrations when invisibility makes it far too easy.

Well, let's just say that the rules and FAQ answers concerning object resistance don't mesh well with indirect illusion spells so I'd advise against demanding spell force vs. OR ratios of at least 1 : 2. I'd rather have them deal with the consequences of their spells. You see, neither the caster nor the persons under an invisibility spell are exempt from its effect when the caster succeeds. So unless they succeed with a resistance test conducted with Intelligence against a TN that is equal to the spells Force and against the caster's successes +1 they'll end up not seeing themselves or their invisible gear either.

4) How can I make insect spirits more menacing without bumping every lowly drone's force into the atmosphere?

By sheer numbers and / or by lumping a true form insect spirit in the mix every once in while. But be careful about the latter option. True forms can get out of hand rather qiuckly.

However, the single time these guys squared off against the ants, they positively trashed them in seconds. At the Van Willis scene, I had a couple flesh-form soldiers rush out and jump the guys.

Next step would be: Don't turn your NPCs in stupid things that charge the opposition without taking cover or using other strategic and tactical options. You see, fleshforms can wear normal armor and - unless highly disfigured - also wield any kind of weaponry you like along with their natural claws an such.

5) 'Ready Weapon' simple action: am I right in requiring it every time the weapon is not carried in "ready" position (using both hands, pointing downwards, only needing a quick movement upwards to point it forward at a target), even if it' already in hand and not just in a holster? Or does it literally represent the motions of retrieving a gun into your hands from somewhere else, and thus it only needs to be brought up basically once per combat, maybe never if trouble is expected?

Technically one could interpret it like you did but general consensus would lean to the variant of "ready weapon" being only action like unholstering / unsheathing the weapon in question ... ties better in with the quick draw action (free, but requires a quickness test and has size restrictions).

[Cochise]

On a similar note, I also require characters who got passively engaged in melee this round to spend a ready action if they want to shoot. I imagine them having to drop the ready stance in order to stave off their melee assailant, thus needing to readjust it before they can shoot again. Right or wrong?

By RAW any character would be able to simply use an already drawn weapon despite being "passively" engaged in melee by an opponent during a earlier combat phase of the same combat round.

6) Shooting into melee, and shooting while in melee... So confusing to me! Can someone please explain the process plus what modifiers apply?

Modifiers in accordance to the ranged attack table on p. 112 SR3 and expended table for partial cover in Cannon Companion

X and Y are duking it out. I want to nip Y in the leg because X is my mate. What are the odds that X gets tagged instead of Y?

By RAW the odds of X being tagged instead of Y are exactly 0. The whole system doesn't deal with someone else being hit when an attack roll fails.

How much more difficult is my shot, since they're probably both moving around (even if none declared a move action in their respective turns)?

Well, your shot would be against base TN according to distance minus any bonuses from laser sights or smartlink plus whatever visibility modifiers are incurred plus your wound modifiers plus whatever modifier for partial cover the GM might suitable for the situation. You could be subject to the "attacker in melee" modifier as well, depending on how close you're to the fighting parties X and Y and whether or not you have been engaged in melee during an earlier combat phase in the same combat turn / initiative phase ... or a third person is within arm's reach (2m) that could try to prevent you from shooting (without necessarily having to declare that as an explicit action!)

What if there's more people involved?

Just increases the cover modifiers for your target and makes it likelier that you are considered as being an "attacker in melee".

What if I'm using a shotgun, or burst-fire, or full auto?

Standard rules apply. A shotgun with shotgun ammo will spread according to choke values and distance and thus most likely hit both X and Y. With slugs there's no difference to a pistol - apart from the higher damage code.

Burst or full auto: only increase TNs based on uncompensated recoil and will only make you "not hit X" when failing the test.

What about when I suck at unarmed, and get rushed by some fool. I want to draw and shoot the guy as he spits his kiai in my face. What rolls need to get done? What modifiers? Is it different if I'm using a pistol or a rifle? Is it different if I'm single-shooting or burst-firing? Is it different if there's mates or foes involved in the same melee? Do they get free attacks? What?
Also, is it possible to withdraw from melee in order to avoid any ranged penalties? If so, how?

At this point I do have to say sorry, but I simply cannot try to walk you through the entirety of initiative rules, movement rules, ranged combat resolution and melee resolution. Please refer back to pages 108 to 122 of SR3.

As far as the underlined questions are concerned - in this order: Depends, depends, depends, depends, what what?, no because then you'd at least walk, subsequently impossible.

7) Shotguns... are they mad powerful or am I missing something?

They are indeed ... What you're missing: Everyone can use them ... including opposition.

[melquisedeq]

Thanks, Cochise...

1) Yeah, true, she did pay dearly for her Titanium Lacing. It's just that I dislike the insanely high discrepancy between her combat prowess, and everyone else's. A run-of-the-mill opposing team, to be balanced against my runners (strictly in combat terms), needs one super-badass who alone can wipe out all my other runners, and then a bunch of mooks who go the ork chick alone can take out by herself. This is a madly simplified example, of course, just to illustrate how formulaic this power discrepancy forces my options to become. Which I dislike.

2) Agree with everything, and those are the justifications I've been using in curbing the guy's attempts at astral shenanigans... This bad habit of mine, having my players read up on the rules specific to only their characters and explaining them to me in their terms, will probably be my downfall as a GM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I'm a player at heart, and a lazy one at that.

3) Well spotted! Not being able to see their own hands and weapons is certainly something a mischievous GM can run with.

4) True that!

5) I might get more lax and not require a declaration of Ready Weapon every time the runners take a breather, but I think I'll keep asking for one after a bout of defensive melee. Reason being that seamlessly switching between melee and ranged doesn't sit right with me... even less so for the possibility of a situation in which there's a bunch of charging melee types coming, our razorgal positions herself at a chokehold point, passively takes out a bunch of guys through intercept or defensive melee, and then still gets her full round to inflict a couple shottie bursts on the straglers, just because her Unarmed skill and power is pretty high compared with a dozen average mooks.

6) Odds of 0? Intensely dislike it! I could see it for a system that sells for being streamlined and highly simplified, but certainly not what I look for in SR. I might use the partial cover rules to add a modifier based on how many people are rumbling around the target, as suggested, and then on a miss roll a dice per additional person in melee. On a 1 that guy gets hit instead. Maybe a 1 or 2 for BF or SA. Shotgun spread is not really a concern, I dont see any of my players ever using shot instead of slugs.

Also, thanks for taking the time to explain stuff, but you missed the melodramatic cheek with which I was exaggeratedly asking for explanations... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I didn't mean to literally ask for a step-by-step combat guide, but simply to know if there are any modifiers or special rules that apply explicitly to shooting at a guy who's engaged in melee with me, other than those +2 the book mentions, but barring any other modifiers that could also apply yet are not specific to it. Like, I don't know, the other guy getting an Interception to slap your hand away before you can draw the gun on him, or something... I take it that it's just the +2, then.

7) Yeah... I guess that's what I need to keep in mind. Not just for shotties but for a lot of other things as well.

[nezumi]

Regarding invisibility, don't forget the value of listen checks and such, plus the character is a beacon on the astral, and vulnerable to laser tripwires, heat sensors, ultrasound, etc. This is a world where invisibility is a well-known tool, so they will intentionally account for it.

For hitting friends, the way I normally houserule it is if you miss the shot, but you make it without the +2 penalty, you hit your friend. But that doesn't come up much. (By canon, you can't 'accidentally' hit your friend. Shots either hit their target, or disappear into the ether, AoE nonwithstanding.)

On the question of closing into melee range on someone who has a gun but no melee skill... Yeah, in that case, it sucks to be you. I normally let the defending character use clubs or unarmed (if they're holding a gun). Otherwise... don't get close enough for people to make melee attacks.

[Fastball]

1) Don't forget to double the barrier rating for melee attacks (SR3 p. 125) and then double that rating when testing barrier damage (SR3 p. 119). Walking into a rating 4 door would make an attack of 12M v. barrier 16 (4*2*2). Since 12 is greater than half the adjusted rating (16/2 = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) , the door takes 1 damage. The next attack is 12M v. 12 (3*2*2), which reduces the barrier rating again by 1. The door now has a rating of 2, which is 50% of its original rating, so it is burst open.

There should be damage for attacking a barrier (especially if you use your noggin by trying to walk through it). I would use the collision rules. In the example above, on the first attack, the door didn't break. Since the door had rating 8 (doubled for melee) and the razorgirl is moving 1-20 mph, she resists 8L damage.

2) The player's interpretation is wrong. Masking has 2 effects - it can make magical aura look less powerful, and it can make an astral form look like an aura. The latter effect is useful to hide astral perception, but not astral projection. As the rules clearly state, any astrally perceiving character that gives "more than a quick look" to a projecting form would notice immediately because of the lack of physical body accompanying the aura (MITS p. 76). In other words, a projecting mage flying around through astral space doesn't look like a spirit, he looks like a projecting mundane flying around through astral space. Since mundanes don't project, masking isn't really useful for avoiding discovery.

As for the geek-the-mage rule, again, masking only hides an aura and is only useful against astral perception. In the real world, casting still makes you look like a mage.

3) You are enforcing one spell per person, right? So 4 invisible runners = 4 sustained spells. Also, that means one enemy gets 4 resist tests, one for each invisibility spell. For simplicity, you can make one resistance test and it apply it to all 4 spells. Presumably the 3rd and 4th spell will be easier to resist, since they were cast with the sustaining penalties.

Don't forget perception tests based on scent (smelly orks + the oil on a gun) and hearing. Also, astral perception will still notice auras, including masked auras (masking makes them appear normal, not invisible).

Personally, I think the rules made a mistake in making invisibility and masking the same power/drain. Thus, I think it makes sense to rule that those shotguns and rifles take separate invisibility spells. The invisibility spell makes the target invisible, so it can't cover much more than the person + clothes. The masking spell overlays an image around the person, so it can make that shotgun look like a broom and the person like a janitor.

4) I'll let others take this one.

5) The rules describe 'Ready Weapon' as drawing a gun from a holster, or picking a weapon up, so I think the rules intend it only when the weapon isn't already in your hand. Technically, the penalty for using a ranged weapon when you are in melee combat is +2 per opponent attacking you. That also applies if you aren't actually in melee combat but are aware of a person within 2 meters that wants to block your attack.

However, requiring ready weapon to shoot while in melee combat seems like a reasonable house rule.

6) If you are shooting into a melee, apply a +4 modifier. I do this based on the "Called Shot" rules for targeting a subsystem, but it also makes sense as "partial cover". If you want it to be even harder, apply both for +8. If you have multiple friends in the combat, you can apply +4 for each of them. Melee combatants are not stationary (unless subdued) so you don't get the -1. I'm not aware of rules for hitting your friends. For a house rule, though, if you miss completely, keep rolling attacks for each other person in the combat, starting with the one closest to the shooter. For these attacks, use the same numbers as the original, except you do not apply the penalties for burst fire or full auto, as using those modes should increase the odds of hitting the wrong target.

For shotguns, I don't use the "Called Shot" modifier, because you are probably going to hit both of them anyway.

If some fool rushes you, shoot him using the normal ranged firing rules. There is a +2 penalty because the attacker is in melee combat. As a house rule, I might consider giving the target a defense test as if it was melee combat, allowing him to do damage to the attacker. This let's a person with no unarmed basically use a ranged attack in place of close combat, but subjects them to damage if fighting a superior opponent that can block their attempts to shoot at close range.

7) Are you applying the greatcoat +50% concealability before or after modifiers? I think it should apply after, which gives concealability of TN 3 (4 - 2 (gasvent) = 2 + 1 (50%) = 3). Also, it takes a simple action to unfold the stock, so the ork won't be able to draw and fire in the same turn (well, she can draw and fire without the +1 recoil compensation).

As for shooting through doors, remember to reduce the power rating of the weapon by the barrier rating of the door (SR3 p. 119), which is double for firearms. So a door with rating 4, would reduced the power to 5D.

[Shaidar]

Don't forget that Insect Spirits have Immunity to Normal Weapons.

[Cochise]

Don't forget that Insect Spirits have Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Flesh Forms do not possess that power ... Only True Forms

[melquisedeq]

Thanks, Fastball.

1) to 3) A lot of great points I overlooked. Will keep them in mind.

5) Yeah, I now realise I was being overzealous with the Ready Action. I'll keep it for melee though, as a houserule.

6) Might go for something like: You get +2 to hit your intended target. On a miss I roll a d6 per person engaged in melee with the target (friendlies first). On a 1 + 1 per 3 shots fired, that guy gets shot instead, at base weapon damage. No staging up, to better represent an unlucky stray bullet rather than a targeted shot. Doesn't seem too bad, if a correct risk/skill assessment is made by the players. A called shot, with its higher +4 penalty, would eliminate the risk to hit someone else.

7) I suppose I exaggerated on the concealability issue, it only came up once and the player had the politeness to humour me and leave it in the car after the briefest of arguments. I need to find me a lot more shotgun-toting gangers to instil the fear of god in these heathens, is what I need.

@ Shaidar and Cochise:
True, both of you. But looking at an "ant hill" comprised of (at best) Force 5 True-Forms, I2NW will only count as (still useful) armour because I don't think my runners would ever use any weapons of lower power than 11 for an infiltration of this magnitude. (Spoiler alert) The module itself offers them the chance to seriously gear up, for free. There's simply no reason for them to take their crappy Predators inside... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

The others have made good points. I will be concise: use the Friends In Melee modifier for enemies if you want hand to hand combat to be more dangerous.

No one-at-a-time group fights like in a ninja movie if the enemy are akin to insects.

[Tiralee]

1: Ork-troll has been covered, it's legit and happens.
2: Your mage is playing you, not the game. Masking isn't "woo, now I'm not a mage!" It's "I'm not as likely to be rumbled as an active, unliscensed magic user." Geek-the-mage is still the preferred order of the day:)
Improved Invisibility is powerful, yes, but you've got to sustain that spell, and that's not cheap unless your mage has a dozen sustain foci (whish is a good enough reason to have Masking, and a few more initiation levels)

Bug Sprits - ok, before I wade into the "YYYYyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek" of combat with the fraggers, it really sounds like you're not applying all those wonderful combat modifiers that come of being in a cramped, dark, chaotic and moving firefight.

Apply visual modifiers. That's the reason why your team paid so much to get rid of their stupid meat eyes and got the new improved models, with low-light, thermo, flare compensation, rangefinders, and everything else that sucks up essence faster than a second-hand VRC rig.
Always apply movement modifiers. If they're not moving and haven't hundered down behind something with a Barrier rating in the double digits, they're gonna get ganked. FYI:
SR3 Page 108: Movement: "+4 TN# to any tests while running (+6 over difficult ground)".
Unless the bugs have built into a highway, that hive is difficult ground. (IMHO)
And the killer, Interception: "Within 1m, free melee attack with readied weapon. Attacker TN 4 plus mods / Defender in Full Defense". Ambush, have them drop from the ceiling, that sort of thing.

If you're using the Canon Companion, use the "friends in melee" rule if someone's stupid enough to go hand-to-hand with bugs (unless they're a Troll adept with a polearm weapon focus). As none on my team have thought that's been a good idea (Instead relying on the joys of Willie Pete, gallons of insecticide, Anti-vehicular rounds, assault cannons and AOE spells...) I can't recite the reference from memory.

Regarding spells - they're not the be-all and end-all of combat management. And mods due to drain or injury make life a lot less fun for the average mage and don't forget - if one insect spirit can see a spell being cast, pretty soon the hive's gonna know who the mage is. Masking means those dual-natured 6-leggers won't react right away, but if one spots combat and has enough brain/judgement to report back to the hive, then their meager advantage will soon be lost under an avalanche of low-level flesh-forms.

And if you're playing Euphoria, don't forget - the lower you go, the bigger the bugs. They might be confident at first, but once the F10 bastards come on out, it's not going to be fun.

Oh, and the guns don't reload themselves - if they're smart, they're using an autoshotgun with smartlink 2 (and have a LOT of extra ammo) or assault-rifle (Area Alpha?) as a side-arm and relying on an LMG or Assault Cannon to survive. And if they're not scavenging for guns and or ammo, you haven't been applying the flesh-forms as the bullet-sponges they're supposed to be (Low-level minions protecting the higher-ups).

Aside from that, have you also been applying the "phones in combat rule"? If one of your players has an (IRL) active mobile phone, their com or p-sec rings loudly and annoyingly in the middle of what you're doing. I read that here and it's the BEST rule to have if people are trying to sneak about, especially in the middle of a bug-infested hive.


Happy Killing!
-Tir

[melquisedeq]

Thanks Wounded Ronin and Tiralee.

Friends in Melee will be the name of the game, yes, at least for the first enemy waves, consisting mostly of swarms of flesh-forms, many of which will be useless workers (just to bump up numbers and to keep the players guessing who to shoot)...

Then, once they hit the lower floor where the actual hive is, I'll switch my arsenal to minimal light (only their flashlights), paper-thin walls for high-force flesh-force soldiers to come crashing through, and judicious use of the true-forms' manifestation ability to keep heads turning 360º and heartrates at a steady 120.

Finally, when they reach Craft the shaman and his high-level true-form bodyguards, they should be bleeding and stacking penalties, victory should no longer be a certainty in their minds, a point that I'll be glad to drive home by having an improved Craft reflect the mages trickery back at them while the giant ants wreak havok against the party's fighter types with their venomous + paralyzing mandibles. I'll be sure to make it memorable...

---

As for the combat balancing issues: my problem is that, by applying more restrictive all-around conditions, I may push the munchkin combat dudes back to acceptable levels, but also end up nerfing the more rounded, less combat-heavy guys as well, often down to ineffective levels. This is not easy to solve, perhaps not even possible. Neither is it an exclusive problem of the Shadowrun system, mind you, but I do find it to be more prone to it than most other games we play. Our gaming crew is composed of two unashamed min-maxers, and four far more laid-back "roleplayers" (myself included)... in Shadowrun, the resulting discrepancy in power levels (and thus spotlight-stealing) is so pronounced that it spawns all those problems I reported in this thread and others, and I really don't enjoy having to punish the players that indulge in the playing style I appreciate (and therefore facilitate the implementation of the campaign as I envision it when I design it), just in order to bring the "unruly ones" down to manageable levels... This is probably venting more than it is seeking answers, to be honest.

[Cochise]

@ Shaidar and Cochise:
True, both of you. But looking at an "ant hill" comprised of (at best) Force 5 True-Forms, I2NW will only count as (still useful) armour because I don't think my runners would ever use any weapons of lower power than 11 for an infiltration of this magnitude. (Spoiler alert) The module itself offers them the chance to seriously gear up, for free. There's simply no reason for them to take their crappy Predators inside... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well, there are still things to consider: I2NW pretty much turns all ammo into standard ammo ... with usual debate about EX and EXEX being treated as "elemental attacks" or not. However, true forms usually have additional armor values on top of what I2NW provides ... often resulting with TNs for damage resistance of 2 for higher force insect spirits unless we're talking assault cannons or some serious full auto action (which poses at least some additional challenge in terms of compensating all recoil). BOD is usually also higher than just force and in conjunction with combat pool (which all NPCs have access to) you'll see true forms being quite tough ... with male bugs there being the worst what can happen to a group.

[melquisedeq]

@ Cochise:

I was just now stating up the little buggers and thinking precisely that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Given that most of the PCs don't have rifle or HW skills, this whole thing just might turn out to be excessive. I'll have to be extra careful not to tip the threat level over into TPK land... although a single character death or maiming would probably be a great way to end this chapter of the campaign on a memorable note... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Mach_Ten]

@ Cochise:

I was just now stating up the little buggers and thinking precisely that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Given that most of the PCs don't have rifle or HW skills, this whole thing just might turn out to be excessive. I'll have to be extra careful not to tip the threat level over into TPK land... although a single character death or maiming would probably be a great way to end this chapter of the campaign on a memorable note... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

That's always a concern regardless of the threat, be it bug spirits or Jaguar guard etc.

So instead of exponentially increasing the physical threat, I'd prefer (as a player in similar scenarios) you try to use situational or terrain to your advantage.

not sure but do they have Spirit Powers ? Spells

make visibility conditions difficult (non IR steam in the tunnels, low light and pockets of darkness)

Even make it so they need to wear visibility impairing gas masks to avoid the noxious fumes

Make the noxious fumes FLAMMABLE so that a gun fight will cause localised flame outs or even explosions

Make using overt measures difficult (Throwing a flash bang will work on the two workers here, but WILL attract the rest of the hive to your location)

Study some David Attenborough on Ants / Termites etc. ... I think workers generally ignore any threats but might call in for reinforcements etc.
Making sneaking around more fun for the players (Get me my Ant Pheromones!)
Get them to use those Chemistry knowledge skills that No Runner EVER takes !

Point out some very useful places to plant explosives, but note that they are right above their heads ..

Try not to get into a war of escalation with the players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sk8bcn]

@ Cochise:

I was just now stating up the little buggers and thinking precisely that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Given that most of the PCs don't have rifle or HW skills, this whole thing just might turn out to be excessive. I'll have to be extra careful not to tip the threat level over into TPK land... although a single character death or maiming would probably be a great way to end this chapter of the campaign on a memorable note... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Honestly, on this part, Gygax had a very good way to handle such things: simply, make join the party opponents every turn and adapt depending on how easy the players have.

You can start low and increase the number of troops added every time.

[Tiralee]

Honestly, on this part, Gygax had a very good way to handle such things: simply, make join the party opponents every turn and adapt depending on how easy the players have. You can start low and increase the number of troops added every time.

I do recommend that you adjust on the fly, and actually decrease the numbers as the players get deeper, but the force ramps up. It's said so in the adventure, but it should be stressed, as the hive's getting tired as well and saving the big guns for protection of the queen.

As people remember, I run an open game, so no dice-fudging, which makes a player near miss very very real:)


Melquisedeq - The thing I think your gunbunnies have to realize is that they will die without the well-rounded characters keeping watch and keeping them upright.

They might be one-dimesional murder-hobos built to kill and kill again - and let's be honest here, this is an occasion when they can be let off the chain - but the rest of the team is there to keep them killing as long as they can so the rest of the team lives as well.
The flipside is, that without the rest of the team, their "problem-solving exercise time" will be reduced due to a case of terminal termite infestation.

-You might want to point that out, OOC, or as an exposition as the hive goes deeper.

Oh, and the other thing is, less workers as you go down, but more flesh-forms. Those pissy little workers were meant to bleed off the ammo and grenades (they have grenades, right?) in inhuman waves, the TPK usually begins when someone runs out of ammo, gets too high a drain or can't shoot properly due to TN modifiers.

Another point is that you don't have to have the "conveniently-placed explosive barrel" or "flammable gas" meme in a horror-filled tunnel of bug spirits - bags or drums of sugar will do it nicely. Enough heat and that's choking, billowing black smoke...which the dual-natured bugs can use as concealment.
Why sugar? It's cannon, bugs like sweets and it's hard to make a Molotov out of 2 pounds of sugar. (I have players, I know what they're like)

Don't overuse the "bug from above" though - I'd recommend that when seriously pressed by a flesh-form, have bunch of half-human hybrids vomit out of the ceiling (use words to that effect) as there's nothing like watching your players cringe and panic-spray their entire ammo supply into a bunch of half-injured/stunned workers. (Treat it as a surprise round, say 5-12 workers, pre-roll their surprise rolls and don't forget, they're injured: modify TN's as appropriate) - the pre-rolling makes you seem like a well-prepared/evil mastermind GM and keeps the combat flow fast and hectic.

Later on, when the wave's receded, have the most-wounded roll for perception (and go up if nothing's seen) and if you're generous, give them a chance to spot some huge-ass bug worming it's way through some of the rotting ceiling resin...just as a half-dozen explode up through the floor.

And then do a huge-ass worker-wave ™ and have some of the tunnels behind the player collapse. But after that, you have no more workers, just big flesh-forms, running, ambushing, spitting, sniping, singing (Or humming) and just crank the hit-and-run nature of the tunnels and corridors of the hive. Have them retreat, and then try and ambush, misdirect, flank (explode through the wall time) and just make the players really really hate the scene.

Have you had them come across a carnal-house yet?
Just space, an big echoing room/cavern off of the main route into the hive, filled with the stench of death, buzzing flies and torn-open corpses of bad merges. Mention ID, trinkets, a Medi-alert band..and 3 DocWagon employee corpses.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Has anyone else made something of a connection to an NPC? Have them down there, split-open and steaming. This is aimed at driving-home the point that EVERYONE is prey to bugs.

The bodies there are not just street-monsters, hobos and joygirls, but children, a husk of a spry-looking lady in her mid 60's, the curdled milk still being expressed from breasts of a young mother's torn-apart corpse - make them throw up in their mouth a little.

You can word it nicely, but this (Room) is a lesson, this is failure. If you screw it up, you will end up here, if you are lucky.

Oh, and if there is a TPK, it's not your fault, or the players.

It's the bugs.


-Tir

[PraetorGradivus]

Flesh Forms do not possess that power ... Only True Forms

Hybrid form: A hybrid form results when neither
spirit nor vessel roll 2 or more net hits. Both
vessel and spirit become a single, dual-natured
entity (p. 395, SR5). The hybrid form’s physical
attributes are enhanced by the spirit’s Force.
The spirit retains all of the host’s natural abilities
but only some of its memories and none of its
skills (the spirit retains its own skills, however).
A hybrid gains Immunity to Normal Weapons (p.
397, SR5) but loses the ability to assume an Astral
Form (p. 394, SR5). The inhabited body exhibits
signs of the takeover, as the merge warps
the vessel with signs of the spirit’s nature (see
Spotting Spirits in Vessels, p. 192). The spirit is
under no obligation to return to its native metaplane
if its services are banished away, and it
may persist indefinitely as an uncontrolled spirit.
Unlike Possession spirits, hybrid forms can operate
a direct neural interface, and the vessel’s
cyberware (if any) continues to function for the
spirit.


In SR 5, neither True form nor Flesh Form have immunity to natural weapons, only hybrid form.

Having said that, a hybrid form with no augmentation would have hardened armor 12. Even if you have enough DV plus AP to effect it, your looking at BOD + 12 on the resist damage rolls with a further 6 net successes added in. Good luck damaging that thing with a party, as you say, uses no machine guns or heavy weapons. Better keep the mage alive for this one.

[Cochise]

[..]
In SR 5, neither True form nor Flesh Form have immunity to natural weapons, only hybrid form.[..]

This thread is explicitly labeled as SR3 thread ... so SR5 and the changes it entails are of no actual relevance here.

edit: irrelevant side note: a flesh form already was a "hybrid" with pretty much the same traits that SR5 describes in your quoted text - except for the Immunity power. And I'm not convinced that under SR5 true form insect spirits no longer posses the Immunity power in their materialzed state unless all forms of spirits have lost it. That would be yet another thing where SR5 does things "the wrong way".

[PraetorGradivus]

Failed perception roll-missed the SR3 label

[melquisedeq]

@Mach_Ten, sk8bcn, Tiralee, PraetorGradivus, and Cochise once more:

Great stuff, fellas! Particularly Mach_Ten and Tiralee's contributions, which gave me plenty of thoughts to mull over until Saturday's session.

Might just be a daft question, but what's the advantage of Full Defense?
This doubt is either due to some important concept that falls through the cracks as I mentally translate the Full Defense description from English to my mother's Portuguese, or maybe I'm just thick, but the process described in the book seems to come up, to my understanding, as pretty much the same as a normal melee bout, except that the defendant can't use combat pool dice in the skill roll. What the hell am I missing? What's the advantage, ever, except when forced into it by Intercept?

[Cochise]

Might just be a daft question, but what's the advantage of Full Defense? This doubt is either due to some important concept that falls through the cracks as I mentally translate the Full Defense description from English to my mother's Portuguese, or maybe I'm just thick, but the process described in the book seems to come up, to my understanding, as pretty much the same as a normal melee bout, except that the defendant can't use combat pool dice in the skill roll. What the hell am I missing? What's the advantage, ever, except when forced into it by Intercept?

1. For a normal melee skill test, the number of combat pool dice is limited to the skill rating of the melee skill => Whenever the available combat pool size of a character exceeds the melee skill rating the Full Defense options grants access to more dice overall for the whole Melee Test + Dodge. Let's say a character has a melee skill of 4 and a combat pool size of 6. In a standard Melee Test without Full Defense the character could only roll a maximum of 8 dice against the Melee Test's TN. In case of Full Defense he'd get to roll 4 dice against the TN for the Melee Test and then up to 6 dice against the Dodge TN which equals 10 dice. Now separate rolls primary Melee Test and Dodge brings us to the next difference:
2. The TN for Dodge can deviate from the TN for the Melee Test by actually being lower (at least within RAW). Base TN for melee is 4 plus damage modifiers plus modifiers from melee table plus 1/2 visibility modifiers (rounded down). For whatever reason neither the Dodge Test in ranged combat nor in melee combat use visibility modifiers => Whenever visibility modifiers exceed a +2 modifier on the visibility table your Dodge test will have a lower TN than the primary Melee Test

Full Defense usually gets interesting against opponents with higher skill ratings than your own and/or against opponents that have such high STR values that the final power of their successful attacks minus worn impact armor results in a higher TN for the Damage Resistance Test than the TN of a Dodge attempt. Just take your Razorgal's minimum damage of 12M stun (without further increases via net success in the melee test). If Razorgal scores a draw (when being attacker) or 1 net success (when being defender) anyone not wearing at least 8 points of impact armor will have a higher TN for Damage Resistance than for Dodge under "perfect" one on one conditions. Now I'd guess that razorgal has a melee skill of 6 for the sake of the example and go with my previous figures for an opponent who happens to wear a 5/3 armor and having a BOD attribute of 5:

Under the assumption that both are willing to use combat pool on their melee tests this would look like this:

1. Standard melee: Razorgal rolls 12 dice against TN 4 where she can expect an average of 6 successes. The opponent rolls a maximum of 8 dice with an average success rate of 4 dice. Razorgal wins and has 2 net successes that will cause melee damage to raise to 12S. Now poor sod will have to resist that with his BOD = 5 + a maximum of 2 remaining combat pool dice against TN of 9. Odds say that on average he'll score 1 success => he takes S Stun damage from Razorgal
2. Melee with Full Defense: Nothing changes on Razorgal's end. Our opponent however now rolls 4 dice with an expected success rate of 2 followed by 6 dice against the same TN for an average success rate of 3. This time around Razorgal only has 1 net success => No Damage Staging occurs prior to Damage resistance and the damage code remains at 12M. Now in the Damage Resistance Test our opponent on average will score 0 success with 5 dice against TN of 9. However he'll still only take M Stun instead of S Stun.

Sure, during Razorgal's next attack (or his own if he's stupid enough to try) he'll face knockout ... but he'll be up a little longer and has even a higher chance of succeeding at other things .. like drawing a gun and trying to shoot Razorgal.