Another fine SR3 session done, here are some doubts and thoughts on rules to which I'd like to apply Dumpshock's finest minds, if I may:

1) Titanium bone lacing is a bit much, no? Our resident ork razorgal adds those +4 to her already pretty high Str of 8... Str 12 means that, given enough time, she can go around punching through walls, or casually stroll through a normal locked door like a normal person would walk through cling film.
Also, her player wanted to add hardliner glove bonus to the mix, but I said no, no, no. Was it a good call, or am I just a dick GM who revels in stomping down on his players' fun?

2) How can I rein in Masking a little bit... our mage initiated fairly early in the campaign, and bought Masking. Basically, he now interprets it as carte blanche to go astral everywhere and anywhere, free from detection or at least suspicion. There are plenty of situations I want to restrict access to astral space under penalty of being spotted and attacked, which he claims wouldn't happen because he comes across as a natural astral entity.

He also seems to believe that Masking renders him immune to "geek the mage first", because unless he really goes out there and makes an active effort to be identified as such, by needlessly waving his arms about and chanting loudly or whatever, no one would ever know he was the mage. Not even astrally perceiving entities, if he chooses to mask his casting as well.
We're all aware that other Masking initiates exist out there, but it's not really fair if I make every awakened opposition out there now suddenly have Masking as well just to counter him.

3) On the same note, how can I rein in Improved Invisibility a bit? These guys literally cast it willy nilly, they walk around with invisible shotguns and rifles. Their single stealth infiltration tactic is to cast invisibility on the razorgal, she takes point, and upon reaching enemies she sneaks behind them and they "Hammer and Anvil" them into bits. I've recently noticed that I wasn't applying the Object Resistance rule to things, which will curb the use of Invisibility in items, but I find it's personal use to be excessive still, especially in a team of 4 that has a mage and a shaman both capable of casting it, one of which can sustain at +1 instead of +2 because of an edge. It's hard to even ponder bluff or diplomacy infiltrations when invisibility makes it far too easy.

4) How can I make insect spirits more menacing without bumping every lowly drone's force into the atmosphere? We're running Queen Euphoria, and (spoiler alert) gearing up for the grand finale assault on the Amber Gel production facility. I've managed to keep a real tone of menace, even for my unusually hard to impress, hubris laden players. My description of the second kidnapping was suitably bloody, the true form hit on Burroughs was pretty intense (practically sliced the guy in half in one hit in front of them, then split before their unarmed asses could even blink), and meeting the shop scene with the feeble Van Willis was rather successfully creepy.

However, the single time these guys squared off against the ants, they positively trashed them in seconds. At the Van Willis scene, I had a couple flesh-form soldiers rush out and jump the guys. The first one got an Enfield burst and went down in one go, didn't even realise what was up. I surreptitiously upped the other one's force to 6, but he still went down the next pass with another burst, after ineffectively lunging at the shaman. I actually had to pretend they were intensely weird and creepy but otherwise normal humans, so the players wouldn't get the feeling that ant spirits are pushovers after all...

I've already had an anti-climatic battle with Pride the Lion shaman in this campaign, would gut me if going through the ants' nest turned out to be a cakewalk for the players. Any suggestions on how to run it effectively? I'm thinking no light sources except flashlights fitted to the weapons, a couple swarms of flesh forms, perhaps even a troll flesh-form soldier crashing through a wall for shits and giggles, one or two true-form flash materializations to keep them on their toes, heavy background count plus astral space swarming with ants to keep the team's awakened afraid to go there, and then a rather protracted fight with a slightly-improved Craft making judicious use of area-effect manipulation spells as the stronger true-forms descend on the team. Anything else?

5) 'Ready Weapon' simple action: am I right in requiring it every time the weapon is not carried in "ready" position (using both hands, pointing downwards, only needing a quick movement upwards to point it forward at a target), even if it' already in hand and not just in a holster? Or does it literally represent the motions of retrieving a gun into your hands from somewhere else, and thus it only needs to be brought up basically once per combat, maybe never if trouble is expected?
On a similar note, I also require characters who got passively engaged in melee this round to spend a ready action if they want to shoot. I imagine them having to drop the ready stance in order to stave off their melee assailant, thus needing to readjust it before they can shoot again. Right or wrong?

6) Shooting into melee, and shooting while in melee... So confusing to me! Can someone please explain the process plus what modifiers apply?
X and Y are duking it out. I want to nip Y in the leg because X is my mate. What are the odds that X gets tagged instead of Y? How much more difficult is my shot, since they're probably both moving around (even if none declared a move action in their respective turns)? What if there's more people involved? What if I'm using a shotgun, or burst-fire, or full auto?

What about when I suck at unarmed, and get rushed by some fool. I want to draw and shoot the guy as he spits his kiai in my face. What rolls need to get done? What modifiers? Is it different if I'm using a pistol or a rifle? Is it different if I'm single-shooting or burst-firing? Is it different if there's mates or foes involved in the same melee? Do they get free attacks? What?
Also, is it possible to withdraw from melee in order to avoid any ranged penalties? If so, how?

7) Shotguns... are they mad powerful or am I missing something? Razorgal has a trusty Franchi Spas-22. Folded stock under a great coat, she can pretty much carry it everywhere that doesn't have MAD's. Loaded with slugs, it spits 13D bursts that are completely compensated by her high strength, level 4 gas vent, custom grip, stock, and whatever else. This weapon has pretty much been the bane of BBEGs in this campaign, a single hit brings them straight into the death spiral and down from "in control of the scene" to "just wanting to escape". Really high Power allows it to shoot straight through most things, from a wooden door to a couch used as cover.

Reading the book, I don't think I'm missing any restriction to shotguns, but given the verified, systematic discrepancy in combat efficacy between our shotgun-wielding babe and everyone else in the campaign, I really need to ask. She really is on a league of her own in hard kills, even against herself when using other weapon types.

I think this is all for now. Thanks for looking and thanks in advance for any help.

TL;DR = this post is not for you. Thanks anyway.

1.) that has been such a point of discussion for so many years on dumpshock, i am not sure we ever got to a definitive answer on the question wether or not hardliner gloves would help with the close combat damage . .
Also, yes, she SHOULD be able to walk through doors just like that. She is, in effect, a Pocket-Troll with that single augmentation.

2.) As soon as he goes astral . . how is masking going to help him? Masking (the basic one at least as far as i remember) just makes you look like a mundane to other awakened prople scanning you, right? As soon as you go out of your body, it's kind of obvious right?

3.) Ultrasound will show invisible stuff. Otherwise, background count to reign in magic. Active Wards will drop spells i think.

4.) What doe insects, specifically ants and other swarm/hive insects, usually have on their side? Numbers. Flood them. If they don't start using AOE weapons and effects, they will go down fast.

5.) No clue actually, i don't think the rules ever got into that one.

6.) The chances of accidentally hitting your own buddy are pretty much nil according to the rules. Only on a critical glitch, maybe on a normal glitch would i accept that. The shooting into melee gets a +2? or so to the usual to hit TN because you are trying to hit something that is NOT your buddy. Burst fire is no different. Shotguns, see choke/cone of fire rules.
Shooting while in melee gets a flat mod to the TN as well, no matter what weapon you use. There are no free attacks. withdrawing from melee usually means turning around and legging it and hoping you are faster. or having somebody else give you firesupport.

7.) Yes, SHOTGUNS ARE POWERFULL! Huge surprise there O.o They are big and unwieldy and loud and flashy and can not be silenced and MAD scanners are cheap and should be more or less common in high rate parts of town and otherwise, a pat down in the seedier parts of town will probably reveal it as well. Did he/she/it have to reload yet? Because the other main problem of shotguns is that they usually can have less ammo than most heavy pistols and because of their internal magazine need to be loaded manually, not by clip out, clip in.
Shotguns start to lose out against automatic weapons as soon as the opposition has heavier ballistic armor, because automatic weapons get a higher power in addition to the higher damage which makes the TN to resist damage higher.
Generally speaking, combat in SR3 especially is a game of glass cannons usually. Especially if you treat it like stand and deliver high noon at the OK corral. If you factor in things like cover, lighting and other vision modifiers, it can get a bit more drawn out as well. And the only time when a runner team should consider getting into a firefight is on their way out, not on their way in usually.

THIS IS ALL FROM MEMORY!
Might be wrong, but that's how i remember it from way too long ago.

Thanks for the quick reply, Stahlseele.

1) OK, I'll allow her official battering ram status. Does she incur any potential damage, though? Like, say, stun damage, since her lacing only protects her structural integrity, not her skin and muscles? Bone lacing won't help if her knuckles get crushed raw down to the titanium inside, or if she gets an ear snagged off or something like that...
I'll keep hardline gloves as a no, for now. The player in question is munchkin enough as it stands, doesn't really need that +1.

2) Masking also makes your astral form come across as a natural astral entity rather than a projecting mage, if I read it correctly. Another astral entity would see you as some random spirit or something, not as your astral self.

3) True, I need to remember to use ultrasound more often...

4) Oh, not using AoE attacks is not a problem I ascribe to this group. They use them too often, if anything. Their mage has once stunballed two members of his own team just to hit one single baddie, because he doesn't have the single target version and didn't want to hold dice in order to shorten the area of effect.
But yeah, I suppose swarming could work well if done from different directions at once and possibly coupled with a few true-form manifestations straight into melee... "Steady... steady... wait for them to get close..." and then a slight shimmer in the air right behind them and "ARRRRGH! GET IT OFF ME!" Mwahahahaha!

5) I'll keep being a dick and demanding the sacrifice of a simple action. That should help melee based opposition actually matter for longer than the first attack.

6) Yeah, glitch = friendly fire is how we've been doing it. Pretty slim indeed, when everyone has at least one ranged skill at 5 or 6. Not happy with just +2, though. That's negligible in all but the most unfavourable of conditions, assuming a decent skill and the use of CB dice. Not happy with the lack of penalties for shooting while attacked in melee either. That would be a fairly logic way to encourage the use of melee. For coolness purposes if nothing else.

7) Thing is, this particular character is NOT a glass cannon. She hits hard but also takes it like a big girl, to the point that her player often boasts that pistol fire barely stands a chance to burn through. High Noon indeed, she usually chooses to just stand there, knowing full well she can soak mostly every potshot while dishing out 13D burst. And she has, unfailingly.
I suppose my problem here is that I always feel bad with changing the gameworld to adapt to the runners, instead of keeping it consistent, and this forces me to keep pistols the most used weapon in the sprawl by a long margin. It would annoy me to have to now include bucketloads of shotgun-totting gangers just to keep the world competitive to the players. But yeah, that's my problem I suppose. I might just need to get her to roll for limb loss a couple times, it should bring her player down a peg or three.

Drones are your friend. The robotic kind, not the creepy crawly insect ones <.<
The Players probably not so much anymore after they have had their first encounter with a building with rail mounted gun drones and tank drones that fit into elevators and stairwells and halls and come from storage units in the walls i guess.
And Improved Invisibility loses so much worth as soon as you actually make use of the object resistance factor . . There is little that has a higher object resistance than a drone sensor. Force of the spell needs to equal or surpass the object resistance and then you need the hits to pull it off as well if i remember correctly . . i never liked using magic, i usually was the Munchkin Combat TROLL instead of Ork and had magic used against me quite frequently because of that . .
As for taking damage . . do remember this crucial little fact: CYBERWARE Body Mod does NOT help against chem-tech.
So, gas grenades, pepper spray. Dart Guns. It all only allows use of natural body. Not even the toughness perk helps.
So all Body Addons from Bones and Dermal-Armor/Sheath and Cyberlimbs are instantly worthless against thhat stuff.
Bioware-Skin does not add body only armor directly. The Suprathyroid Gland gives +1 Body which works against it.
And there is very specialized bioware to help with toxins and diseases, but no combat character has money/room for that usually.

Strictly speaking, hardliner gloves add +1 power to any otherwise "unarmed" attack that's being made. So yes, they'd add to that ork's [STR + 4 +1]M damage code when going through barriers.
And looking at the toll on the limited resource Essence it doesn't seem to be too unbalancing to me.



Someone is heavily misinterpreting the masking rules there. Certainly, a projecting magician capable of masking can hide his astral body in the sense that he can make it look like an ordinary "aura" instead but the rules on masking explicitly mention that any such attempt will fall rather short because any astral observer would pretty much instantly note that the "aura" is missing the "shadow" of the physical body. And - at least in SR3 - standard masking is not capable of creating the illusion of the projecting mage being someone/something completely different.

Oh and for the record: Any astrally present entity - like a spirit or elemental - that is tasked with astral patrol will certainly raise alarm in case an unknown astral entity (or a suspicious aura that lacks a physical body) enters their guarded territory. And while masking surely hinders successful targeting for spell casting good old astral combat (a type of melee) works just fine.



Wrong on various accounts. First of all, no amount of masking will stop bystanders to successfully notice magic being used according the rules for noticing spell casting. While masking might save him there from almost instant recognition via astral perception the active use of magic will ultimately alert people to his presence. Furthermore, any opposing mage will also notice him being present when having spell defense up and the mage targeting one of opponents under spell defense.
Finally, while non-initiated magicians cannot pierce his mask any initiated magician can just by looking at him depending on the outcome of a test that the GM conducts ... unless he's deliberately masking himself. In such cases the onlooking mage on the opponent side would have to try and deliberately pierce the mask ... something he might try after he got alerted to another mage's presence via the previously mentioned things.



Well, unless we're talking a rather high grade initiate your mage will have quite some difficulties with hiding himself and spells - even in case of deliberate masking. Without deliberate masking he's limited to a maximum of 1 force point per initiation grade. At grade 1 he could mask one force 1 spell. Deliberate masking would allow him to mask more than that, but requires him to succeed at has masking test and is an Exclusive magic action that prevents him from using other magical skills until he drops his deliberate mask.

Oh and while we're at it: No deliberate masking of a sustained spell unless it's sustained with a sustaining focus ... exclusive actions and such



No need to have masked initiates as opponents. Piercing a mask only requires being an initiate as well but not necessarily knowing the masking technique.



Well, let's just say that the rules and FAQ answers concerning object resistance don't mesh well with indirect illusion spells so I'd advise against demanding spell force vs. OR ratios of at least 1 : 2. I'd rather have them deal with the consequences of their spells. You see, neither the caster nor the persons under an invisibility spell are exempt from its effect when the caster succeeds. So unless they succeed with a resistance test conducted with Intelligence against a TN that is equal to the spells Force and against the caster's successes +1 they'll end up not seeing themselves or their invisible gear either.



By sheer numbers and / or by lumping a true form insect spirit in the mix every once in while. But be careful about the latter option. True forms can get out of hand rather qiuckly.



Next step would be: Don't turn your NPCs in stupid things that charge the opposition without taking cover or using other strategic and tactical options. You see, fleshforms can wear normal armor and - unless highly disfigured - also wield any kind of weaponry you like along with their natural claws an such.



Technically one could interpret it like you did but general consensus would lean to the variant of "ready weapon" being only action like unholstering / unsheathing the weapon in question ... ties better in with the quick draw action (free, but requires a quickness test and has size restrictions).

By RAW any character would be able to simply use an already drawn weapon despite being "passively" engaged in melee by an opponent during a earlier combat phase of the same combat round.



Modifiers in accordance to the ranged attack table on p. 112 SR3 and expended table for partial cover in Cannon Companion



By RAW the odds of X being tagged instead of Y are exactly 0. The whole system doesn't deal with someone else being hit when an attack roll fails.



Well, your shot would be against base TN according to distance minus any bonuses from laser sights or smartlink plus whatever visibility modifiers are incurred plus your wound modifiers plus whatever modifier for partial cover the GM might suitable for the situation. You could be subject to the "attacker in melee" modifier as well, depending on how close you're to the fighting parties X and Y and whether or not you have been engaged in melee during an earlier combat phase in the same combat turn / initiative phase ... or a third person is within arm's reach (2m) that could try to prevent you from shooting (without necessarily having to declare that as an explicit action!)



Just increases the cover modifiers for your target and makes it likelier that you are considered as being an "attacker in melee".



Standard rules apply. A shotgun with shotgun ammo will spread according to choke values and distance and thus most likely hit both X and Y. With slugs there's no difference to a pistol - apart from the higher damage code.

Burst or full auto: only increase TNs based on uncompensated recoil and will only make you "not hit X" when failing the test.



At this point I do have to say sorry, but I simply cannot try to walk you through the entirety of initiative rules, movement rules, ranged combat resolution and melee resolution. Please refer back to pages 108 to 122 of SR3.

As far as the underlined questions are concerned - in this order: Depends, depends, depends, depends, what what?, no because then you'd at least walk, subsequently impossible.



They are indeed ... What you're missing: Everyone can use them ... including opposition.

Thanks, Cochise...

1) Yeah, true, she did pay dearly for her Titanium Lacing. It's just that I dislike the insanely high discrepancy between her combat prowess, and everyone else's. A run-of-the-mill opposing team, to be balanced against my runners (strictly in combat terms), needs one super-badass who alone can wipe out all my other runners, and then a bunch of mooks who go the ork chick alone can take out by herself. This is a madly simplified example, of course, just to illustrate how formulaic this power discrepancy forces my options to become. Which I dislike.

2) Agree with everything, and those are the justifications I've been using in curbing the guy's attempts at astral shenanigans... This bad habit of mine, having my players read up on the rules specific to only their characters and explaining them to me in their terms, will probably be my downfall as a GM I'm a player at heart, and a lazy one at that.

3) Well spotted! Not being able to see their own hands and weapons is certainly something a mischievous GM can run with.

4) True that!

5) I might get more lax and not require a declaration of Ready Weapon every time the runners take a breather, but I think I'll keep asking for one after a bout of defensive melee. Reason being that seamlessly switching between melee and ranged doesn't sit right with me... even less so for the possibility of a situation in which there's a bunch of charging melee types coming, our razorgal positions herself at a chokehold point, passively takes out a bunch of guys through intercept or defensive melee, and then still gets her full round to inflict a couple shottie bursts on the straglers, just because her Unarmed skill and power is pretty high compared with a dozen average mooks.

6) Odds of 0? Intensely dislike it! I could see it for a system that sells for being streamlined and highly simplified, but certainly not what I look for in SR. I might use the partial cover rules to add a modifier based on how many people are rumbling around the target, as suggested, and then on a miss roll a dice per additional person in melee. On a 1 that guy gets hit instead. Maybe a 1 or 2 for BF or SA. Shotgun spread is not really a concern, I dont see any of my players ever using shot instead of slugs.

Also, thanks for taking the time to explain stuff, but you missed the melodramatic cheek with which I was exaggeratedly asking for explanations... I didn't mean to literally ask for a step-by-step combat guide, but simply to know if there are any modifiers or special rules that apply explicitly to shooting at a guy who's engaged in melee with me, other than those +2 the book mentions, but barring any other modifiers that could also apply yet are not specific to it. Like, I don't know, the other guy getting an Interception to slap your hand away before you can draw the gun on him, or something... I take it that it's just the +2, then.

7) Yeah... I guess that's what I need to keep in mind. Not just for shotties but for a lot of other things as well.

Regarding invisibility, don't forget the value of listen checks and such, plus the character is a beacon on the astral, and vulnerable to laser tripwires, heat sensors, ultrasound, etc. This is a world where invisibility is a well-known tool, so they will intentionally account for it.

For hitting friends, the way I normally houserule it is if you miss the shot, but you make it without the +2 penalty, you hit your friend. But that doesn't come up much. (By canon, you can't 'accidentally' hit your friend. Shots either hit their target, or disappear into the ether, AoE nonwithstanding.)

On the question of closing into melee range on someone who has a gun but no melee skill... Yeah, in that case, it sucks to be you. I normally let the defending character use clubs or unarmed (if they're holding a gun). Otherwise... don't get close enough for people to make melee attacks.

1) Don't forget to double the barrier rating for melee attacks (SR3 p. 125) and then double that rating when testing barrier damage (SR3 p. 119). Walking into a rating 4 door would make an attack of 12M v. barrier 16 (4*2*2). Since 12 is greater than half the adjusted rating (16/2 = , the door takes 1 damage. The next attack is 12M v. 12 (3*2*2), which reduces the barrier rating again by 1. The door now has a rating of 2, which is 50% of its original rating, so it is burst open.

There should be damage for attacking a barrier (especially if you use your noggin by trying to walk through it). I would use the collision rules. In the example above, on the first attack, the door didn't break. Since the door had rating 8 (doubled for melee) and the razorgirl is moving 1-20 mph, she resists 8L damage.

2) The player's interpretation is wrong. Masking has 2 effects - it can make magical aura look less powerful, and it can make an astral form look like an aura. The latter effect is useful to hide astral perception, but not astral projection. As the rules clearly state, any astrally perceiving character that gives "more than a quick look" to a projecting form would notice immediately because of the lack of physical body accompanying the aura (MITS p. 76). In other words, a projecting mage flying around through astral space doesn't look like a spirit, he looks like a projecting mundane flying around through astral space. Since mundanes don't project, masking isn't really useful for avoiding discovery.

As for the geek-the-mage rule, again, masking only hides an aura and is only useful against astral perception. In the real world, casting still makes you look like a mage.

3) You are enforcing one spell per person, right? So 4 invisible runners = 4 sustained spells. Also, that means one enemy gets 4 resist tests, one for each invisibility spell. For simplicity, you can make one resistance test and it apply it to all 4 spells. Presumably the 3rd and 4th spell will be easier to resist, since they were cast with the sustaining penalties.

Don't forget perception tests based on scent (smelly orks + the oil on a gun) and hearing. Also, astral perception will still notice auras, including masked auras (masking makes them appear normal, not invisible).

Personally, I think the rules made a mistake in making invisibility and masking the same power/drain. Thus, I think it makes sense to rule that those shotguns and rifles take separate invisibility spells. The invisibility spell makes the target invisible, so it can't cover much more than the person + clothes. The masking spell overlays an image around the person, so it can make that shotgun look like a broom and the person like a janitor.

4) I'll let others take this one.

5) The rules describe 'Ready Weapon' as drawing a gun from a holster, or picking a weapon up, so I think the rules intend it only when the weapon isn't already in your hand. Technically, the penalty for using a ranged weapon when you are in melee combat is +2 per opponent attacking you. That also applies if you aren't actually in melee combat but are aware of a person within 2 meters that wants to block your attack.

However, requiring ready weapon to shoot while in melee combat seems like a reasonable house rule.

6) If you are shooting into a melee, apply a +4 modifier. I do this based on the "Called Shot" rules for targeting a subsystem, but it also makes sense as "partial cover". If you want it to be even harder, apply both for +8. If you have multiple friends in the combat, you can apply +4 for each of them. Melee combatants are not stationary (unless subdued) so you don't get the -1. I'm not aware of rules for hitting your friends. For a house rule, though, if you miss completely, keep rolling attacks for each other person in the combat, starting with the one closest to the shooter. For these attacks, use the same numbers as the original, except you do not apply the penalties for burst fire or full auto, as using those modes should increase the odds of hitting the wrong target.

For shotguns, I don't use the "Called Shot" modifier, because you are probably going to hit both of them anyway.

If some fool rushes you, shoot him using the normal ranged firing rules. There is a +2 penalty because the attacker is in melee combat. As a house rule, I might consider giving the target a defense test as if it was melee combat, allowing him to do damage to the attacker. This let's a person with no unarmed basically use a ranged attack in place of close combat, but subjects them to damage if fighting a superior opponent that can block their attempts to shoot at close range.

7) Are you applying the greatcoat +50% concealability before or after modifiers? I think it should apply after, which gives concealability of TN 3 (4 - 2 (gasvent) = 2 + 1 (50%) = 3). Also, it takes a simple action to unfold the stock, so the ork won't be able to draw and fire in the same turn (well, she can draw and fire without the +1 recoil compensation).

As for shooting through doors, remember to reduce the power rating of the weapon by the barrier rating of the door (SR3 p. 119), which is double for firearms. So a door with rating 4, would reduced the power to 5D.

Don't forget that Insect Spirits have Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Flesh Forms do not possess that power ... Only True Forms

Thanks, Fastball.

1) to 3) A lot of great points I overlooked. Will keep them in mind.

5) Yeah, I now realise I was being overzealous with the Ready Action. I'll keep it for melee though, as a houserule.

6) Might go for something like: You get +2 to hit your intended target. On a miss I roll a d6 per person engaged in melee with the target (friendlies first). On a 1 + 1 per 3 shots fired, that guy gets shot instead, at base weapon damage. No staging up, to better represent an unlucky stray bullet rather than a targeted shot. Doesn't seem too bad, if a correct risk/skill assessment is made by the players. A called shot, with its higher +4 penalty, would eliminate the risk to hit someone else.

7) I suppose I exaggerated on the concealability issue, it only came up once and the player had the politeness to humour me and leave it in the car after the briefest of arguments. I need to find me a lot more shotgun-toting gangers to instil the fear of god in these heathens, is what I need.

@ Shaidar and Cochise:
True, both of you. But looking at an "ant hill" comprised of (at best) Force 5 True-Forms, I2NW will only count as (still useful) armour because I don't think my runners would ever use any weapons of lower power than 11 for an infiltration of this magnitude. (Spoiler alert) The module itself offers them the chance to seriously gear up, for free. There's simply no reason for them to take their crappy Predators inside...

The others have made good points. I will be concise: use the Friends In Melee modifier for enemies if you want hand to hand combat to be more dangerous.

No one-at-a-time group fights like in a ninja movie if the enemy are akin to insects.

1: Ork-troll has been covered, it's legit and happens.
2: Your mage is playing you, not the game. Masking isn't "woo, now I'm not a mage!" It's "I'm not as likely to be rumbled as an active, unliscensed magic user." Geek-the-mage is still the preferred order of the day:)
Improved Invisibility is powerful, yes, but you've got to sustain that spell, and that's not cheap unless your mage has a dozen sustain foci (whish is a good enough reason to have Masking, and a few more initiation levels)

Bug Sprits - ok, before I wade into the "YYYYyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek" of combat with the fraggers, it really sounds like you're not applying all those wonderful combat modifiers that come of being in a cramped, dark, chaotic and moving firefight.

Apply visual modifiers. That's the reason why your team paid so much to get rid of their stupid meat eyes and got the new improved models, with low-light, thermo, flare compensation, rangefinders, and everything else that sucks up essence faster than a second-hand VRC rig.
Always apply movement modifiers. If they're not moving and haven't hundered down behind something with a Barrier rating in the double digits, they're gonna get ganked. FYI:
SR3 Page 108: Movement: "+4 TN# to any tests while running (+6 over difficult ground)".
Unless the bugs have built into a highway, that hive is difficult ground. (IMHO)
And the killer, Interception: "Within 1m, free melee attack with readied weapon. Attacker TN 4 plus mods / Defender in Full Defense". Ambush, have them drop from the ceiling, that sort of thing.

If you're using the Canon Companion, use the "friends in melee" rule if someone's stupid enough to go hand-to-hand with bugs (unless they're a Troll adept with a polearm weapon focus). As none on my team have thought that's been a good idea (Instead relying on the joys of Willie Pete, gallons of insecticide, Anti-vehicular rounds, assault cannons and AOE spells...) I can't recite the reference from memory.

Regarding spells - they're not the be-all and end-all of combat management. And mods due to drain or injury make life a lot less fun for the average mage and don't forget - if one insect spirit can see a spell being cast, pretty soon the hive's gonna know who the mage is. Masking means those dual-natured 6-leggers won't react right away, but if one spots combat and has enough brain/judgement to report back to the hive, then their meager advantage will soon be lost under an avalanche of low-level flesh-forms.

And if you're playing Euphoria, don't forget - the lower you go, the bigger the bugs. They might be confident at first, but once the F10 bastards come on out, it's not going to be fun.

Oh, and the guns don't reload themselves - if they're smart, they're using an autoshotgun with smartlink 2 (and have a LOT of extra ammo) or assault-rifle (Area Alpha?) as a side-arm and relying on an LMG or Assault Cannon to survive. And if they're not scavenging for guns and or ammo, you haven't been applying the flesh-forms as the bullet-sponges they're supposed to be (Low-level minions protecting the higher-ups).

Aside from that, have you also been applying the "phones in combat rule"? If one of your players has an (IRL) active mobile phone, their com or p-sec rings loudly and annoyingly in the middle of what you're doing. I read that here and it's the BEST rule to have if people are trying to sneak about, especially in the middle of a bug-infested hive.


Happy Killing!
-Tir

Thanks Wounded Ronin and Tiralee.

Friends in Melee will be the name of the game, yes, at least for the first enemy waves, consisting mostly of swarms of flesh-forms, many of which will be useless workers (just to bump up numbers and to keep the players guessing who to shoot)...

Then, once they hit the lower floor where the actual hive is, I'll switch my arsenal to minimal light (only their flashlights), paper-thin walls for high-force flesh-force soldiers to come crashing through, and judicious use of the true-forms' manifestation ability to keep heads turning 360º and heartrates at a steady 120.

Finally, when they reach Craft the shaman and his high-level true-form bodyguards, they should be bleeding and stacking penalties, victory should no longer be a certainty in their minds, a point that I'll be glad to drive home by having an improved Craft reflect the mages trickery back at them while the giant ants wreak havok against the party's fighter types with their venomous + paralyzing mandibles. I'll be sure to make it memorable...

---

As for the combat balancing issues: my problem is that, by applying more restrictive all-around conditions, I may push the munchkin combat dudes back to acceptable levels, but also end up nerfing the more rounded, less combat-heavy guys as well, often down to ineffective levels. This is not easy to solve, perhaps not even possible. Neither is it an exclusive problem of the Shadowrun system, mind you, but I do find it to be more prone to it than most other games we play. Our gaming crew is composed of two unashamed min-maxers, and four far more laid-back "roleplayers" (myself included)... in Shadowrun, the resulting discrepancy in power levels (and thus spotlight-stealing) is so pronounced that it spawns all those problems I reported in this thread and others, and I really don't enjoy having to punish the players that indulge in the playing style I appreciate (and therefore facilitate the implementation of the campaign as I envision it when I design it), just in order to bring the "unruly ones" down to manageable levels... This is probably venting more than it is seeking answers, to be honest.

Well, there are still things to consider: I2NW pretty much turns all ammo into standard ammo ... with usual debate about EX and EXEX being treated as "elemental attacks" or not. However, true forms usually have additional armor values on top of what I2NW provides ... often resulting with TNs for damage resistance of 2 for higher force insect spirits unless we're talking assault cannons or some serious full auto action (which poses at least some additional challenge in terms of compensating all recoil). BOD is usually also higher than just force and in conjunction with combat pool (which all NPCs have access to) you'll see true forms being quite tough ... with male bugs there being the worst what can happen to a group.

@ Cochise:

I was just now stating up the little buggers and thinking precisely that!
Given that most of the PCs don't have rifle or HW skills, this whole thing just might turn out to be excessive. I'll have to be extra careful not to tip the threat level over into TPK land... although a single character death or maiming would probably be a great way to end this chapter of the campaign on a memorable note...

That's always a concern regardless of the threat, be it bug spirits or Jaguar guard etc.

So instead of exponentially increasing the physical threat, I'd prefer (as a player in similar scenarios) you try to use situational or terrain to your advantage.

not sure but do they have Spirit Powers ? Spells

make visibility conditions difficult (non IR steam in the tunnels, low light and pockets of darkness)

Even make it so they need to wear visibility impairing gas masks to avoid the noxious fumes

Make the noxious fumes FLAMMABLE so that a gun fight will cause localised flame outs or even explosions

Make using overt measures difficult (Throwing a flash bang will work on the two workers here, but WILL attract the rest of the hive to your location)

Study some David Attenborough on Ants / Termites etc. ... I think workers generally ignore any threats but might call in for reinforcements etc.
Making sneaking around more fun for the players (Get me my Ant Pheromones!)
Get them to use those Chemistry knowledge skills that No Runner EVER takes !

Point out some very useful places to plant explosives, but note that they are right above their heads ..

Try not to get into a war of escalation with the players

Honestly, on this part, Gygax had a very good way to handle such things: simply, make join the party opponents every turn and adapt depending on how easy the players have.

You can start low and increase the number of troops added every time.

I do recommend that you adjust on the fly, and actually decrease the numbers as the players get deeper, but the force ramps up. It's said so in the adventure, but it should be stressed, as the hive's getting tired as well and saving the big guns for protection of the queen.

As people remember, I run an open game, so no dice-fudging, which makes a player near miss very very real:)


Melquisedeq - The thing I think your gunbunnies have to realize is that they will die without the well-rounded characters keeping watch and keeping them upright.

They might be one-dimesional murder-hobos built to kill and kill again - and let's be honest here, this is an occasion when they can be let off the chain - but the rest of the team is there to keep them killing as long as they can so the rest of the team lives as well.
The flipside is, that without the rest of the team, their "problem-solving exercise time" will be reduced due to a case of terminal termite infestation.

-You might want to point that out, OOC, or as an exposition as the hive goes deeper.

Oh, and the other thing is, less workers as you go down, but more flesh-forms. Those pissy little workers were meant to bleed off the ammo and grenades (they have grenades, right?) in inhuman waves, the TPK usually begins when someone runs out of ammo, gets too high a drain or can't shoot properly due to TN modifiers.

Another point is that you don't have to have the "conveniently-placed explosive barrel" or "flammable gas" meme in a horror-filled tunnel of bug spirits - bags or drums of sugar will do it nicely. Enough heat and that's choking, billowing black smoke...which the dual-natured bugs can use as concealment.
Why sugar? It's cannon, bugs like sweets and it's hard to make a Molotov out of 2 pounds of sugar. (I have players, I know what they're like)

Don't overuse the "bug from above" though - I'd recommend that when seriously pressed by a flesh-form, have bunch of half-human hybrids vomit out of the ceiling (use words to that effect) as there's nothing like watching your players cringe and panic-spray their entire ammo supply into a bunch of half-injured/stunned workers. (Treat it as a surprise round, say 5-12 workers, pre-roll their surprise rolls and don't forget, they're injured: modify TN's as appropriate) - the pre-rolling makes you seem like a well-prepared/evil mastermind GM and keeps the combat flow fast and hectic.

Later on, when the wave's receded, have the most-wounded roll for perception (and go up if nothing's seen) and if you're generous, give them a chance to spot some huge-ass bug worming it's way through some of the rotting ceiling resin...just as a half-dozen explode up through the floor.

And then do a huge-ass worker-wave ™ and have some of the tunnels behind the player collapse. But after that, you have no more workers, just big flesh-forms, running, ambushing, spitting, sniping, singing (Or humming) and just crank the hit-and-run nature of the tunnels and corridors of the hive. Have them retreat, and then try and ambush, misdirect, flank (explode through the wall time) and just make the players really really hate the scene.

Have you had them come across a carnal-house yet?
Just space, an big echoing room/cavern off of the main route into the hive, filled with the stench of death, buzzing flies and torn-open corpses of bad merges. Mention ID, trinkets, a Medi-alert band..and 3 DocWagon employee corpses..
Has anyone else made something of a connection to an NPC? Have them down there, split-open and steaming. This is aimed at driving-home the point that EVERYONE is prey to bugs.

The bodies there are not just street-monsters, hobos and joygirls, but children, a husk of a spry-looking lady in her mid 60's, the curdled milk still being expressed from breasts of a young mother's torn-apart corpse - make them throw up in their mouth a little.

You can word it nicely, but this (Room) is a lesson, this is failure. If you screw it up, you will end up here, if you are lucky.

Oh, and if there is a TPK, it's not your fault, or the players.

It's the bugs.


-Tir

Hybrid form: A hybrid form results when neither
spirit nor vessel roll 2 or more net hits. Both
vessel and spirit become a single, dual-natured
entity (p. 395, SR5). The hybrid form’s physical
attributes are enhanced by the spirit’s Force.
The spirit retains all of the host’s natural abilities
but only some of its memories and none of its
skills (the spirit retains its own skills, however).
A hybrid gains Immunity to Normal Weapons (p.
397, SR5) but loses the ability to assume an Astral
Form (p. 394, SR5). The inhabited body exhibits
signs of the takeover, as the merge warps
the vessel with signs of the spirit’s nature (see
Spotting Spirits in Vessels, p. 192). The spirit is
under no obligation to return to its native metaplane
if its services are banished away, and it
may persist indefinitely as an uncontrolled spirit.
Unlike Possession spirits, hybrid forms can operate
a direct neural interface, and the vessel’s
cyberware (if any) continues to function for the
spirit.


In SR 5, neither True form nor Flesh Form have immunity to natural weapons, only hybrid form.

Having said that, a hybrid form with no augmentation would have hardened armor 12. Even if you have enough DV plus AP to effect it, your looking at BOD + 12 on the resist damage rolls with a further 6 net successes added in. Good luck damaging that thing with a party, as you say, uses no machine guns or heavy weapons. Better keep the mage alive for this one.

This thread is explicitly labeled as SR3 thread ... so SR5 and the changes it entails are of no actual relevance here.

edit: irrelevant side note: a flesh form already was a "hybrid" with pretty much the same traits that SR5 describes in your quoted text - except for the Immunity power. And I'm not convinced that under SR5 true form insect spirits no longer posses the Immunity power in their materialzed state unless all forms of spirits have lost it. That would be yet another thing where SR5 does things "the wrong way".

Failed perception roll-missed the SR3 label

@Mach_Ten, sk8bcn, Tiralee, PraetorGradivus, and Cochise once more:

Great stuff, fellas! Particularly Mach_Ten and Tiralee's contributions, which gave me plenty of thoughts to mull over until Saturday's session.

Might just be a daft question, but what's the advantage of Full Defense?
This doubt is either due to some important concept that falls through the cracks as I mentally translate the Full Defense description from English to my mother's Portuguese, or maybe I'm just thick, but the process described in the book seems to come up, to my understanding, as pretty much the same as a normal melee bout, except that the defendant can't use combat pool dice in the skill roll. What the hell am I missing? What's the advantage, ever, except when forced into it by Intercept?

1. For a normal melee skill test, the number of combat pool dice is limited to the skill rating of the melee skill => Whenever the available combat pool size of a character exceeds the melee skill rating the Full Defense options grants access to more dice overall for the whole Melee Test + Dodge. Let's say a character has a melee skill of 4 and a combat pool size of 6. In a standard Melee Test without Full Defense the character could only roll a maximum of 8 dice against the Melee Test's TN. In case of Full Defense he'd get to roll 4 dice against the TN for the Melee Test and then up to 6 dice against the Dodge TN which equals 10 dice. Now separate rolls primary Melee Test and Dodge brings us to the next difference:
2. The TN for Dodge can deviate from the TN for the Melee Test by actually being lower (at least within RAW). Base TN for melee is 4 plus damage modifiers plus modifiers from melee table plus 1/2 visibility modifiers (rounded down). For whatever reason neither the Dodge Test in ranged combat nor in melee combat use visibility modifiers => Whenever visibility modifiers exceed a +2 modifier on the visibility table your Dodge test will have a lower TN than the primary Melee Test

Full Defense usually gets interesting against opponents with higher skill ratings than your own and/or against opponents that have such high STR values that the final power of their successful attacks minus worn impact armor results in a higher TN for the Damage Resistance Test than the TN of a Dodge attempt. Just take your Razorgal's minimum damage of 12M stun (without further increases via net success in the melee test). If Razorgal scores a draw (when being attacker) or 1 net success (when being defender) anyone not wearing at least 8 points of impact armor will have a higher TN for Damage Resistance than for Dodge under "perfect" one on one conditions. Now I'd guess that razorgal has a melee skill of 6 for the sake of the example and go with my previous figures for an opponent who happens to wear a 5/3 armor and having a BOD attribute of 5:

Under the assumption that both are willing to use combat pool on their melee tests this would look like this:

1. Standard melee: Razorgal rolls 12 dice against TN 4 where she can expect an average of 6 successes. The opponent rolls a maximum of 8 dice with an average success rate of 4 dice. Razorgal wins and has 2 net successes that will cause melee damage to raise to 12S. Now poor sod will have to resist that with his BOD = 5 + a maximum of 2 remaining combat pool dice against TN of 9. Odds say that on average he'll score 1 success => he takes S Stun damage from Razorgal
2. Melee with Full Defense: Nothing changes on Razorgal's end. Our opponent however now rolls 4 dice with an expected success rate of 2 followed by 6 dice against the same TN for an average success rate of 3. This time around Razorgal only has 1 net success => No Damage Staging occurs prior to Damage resistance and the damage code remains at 12M. Now in the Damage Resistance Test our opponent on average will score 0 success with 5 dice against TN of 9. However he'll still only take M Stun instead of S Stun.

Sure, during Razorgal's next attack (or his own if he's stupid enough to try) he'll face knockout ... but he'll be up a little longer and has even a higher chance of succeeding at other things .. like drawing a gun and trying to shoot Razorgal.

@ Cochise:

That, to my group, pretty much translates as "never unless I have to because of interceptions"... but I appreciate the explanation, mate!

Well, that's up to them but you as GM can still use it for your NPCs. And let's just say that the overall stance on that might change once somone takes a closer look at the advanced melee and martial arts rules in Cannon Companion and/or decides on playing a melee oriented adept. Full Defense also can be valuable if you're forced to fight but simply cannot allow that anybody gets seriously hurt. I as GM had lots of fun with a NPC that was superior in melee to any group member and demonstrated his superiority by just blocking each and every attack from them as well as "compromising" his own attacks by constantly going into full defense while taunting them about their inability to harm him ... before ultimately knocking them out with a single strike.



And there might even come a time when players change their established behavior in order to portray characters in a different manner.

The other thing you've not considered is that those "mook" worker forms can use Full defense and friends in melee to frustrate your combat machines into expanding ammo - they shouldn't really be a TPK (Total party Kill) unless someone tosses a grenade and it scatters back to their feet.

Anything your players can do, the NPCs can. It's fair, that way.

IMHO, you'll want the players, tired, hurting and running on fumes as they hit the big stuff - that will make them fight smarter and use what resources the have with care.

'Até breve!
-Tir

I would add the following thoughts:

Your Ork? How much does she weigh? Now add in the weight of that bone lacing? And her armour, weapons, ammo, and other kit. Suddenly looking at a pretty large number? No matter how hard the character, and how high their skills - the environment can still be a danger to them. Have the floor give way under your heaviest character, plummeting them into the tunnels below. Make them roll on the falling table, where armour won't help them, or may actively hinder them. Even a twisted ankle / light wound is enough to start stacking up wound modifiers to make things harder. Alternatively, if they soak, does the rest of the team take the fall as well, or do they let that character wander solo, trying to meet up somewhere? Suddenly 4 workers rushing a solo street sam, puts them in a bad place due to the FITM modifiers.

I think the masking has been covered plenty, but would just say have a good read of the masking metamagic - it's not that long, and it will clear things up clearly and quickly.

On the improved invisibility, many of the good ideas have already been raised, but I would add walls with FAB, astrally gene spliced plants that glow in the presence of magic, guard dogs, scent detectors, pressure pads and tremor sensors to the list you can use.

Shotguns - easy to aim, easy to use, easy to get hold of. There's a reason that so many bank robberies and hold ups use a sawn-off shotgun. But yeah, factor in the lower range, longer reload, greater size and difficulty in getting "special" ammunition. It's not at all unreasonable to start outfitting your gangs with them - hell, even build it into the story. Let the players pick up on news reports about a new gang (Mafia, Triads, Yaks, Rings, bikers, whatever) that have suddenly hit the city, and carved out a niche for themselves, triggering a bit of a gang war. Build up to it over several days / weeks about the escalating violence, the surge in black market weapons, violent offences, shoot outs with the police. Pretty soon the gangs will be in a war of escalation, gradually up-arming themselves, with gun runners making out like bandits. Have the players suddenly face 200-500% increases in the cost of their guns and ammo as the market goes crazy, and people try to keep up with the Jones's, and then have them start to meet gangers with no clue but excessive firepower, that can be as dangerous to themselves as to other. But they only need to get lucky once to take a character down.
It might even be the source of a mission or two - to smuggle in guns or stop them, infiltrate the gangs, help one side or the other, find the source of the new gange, whatever - but at least your players will have seen the world evolve around them, and have no ground to complain about why this ENTIRE gang is now using Mosbergs with Dragons Breath rounds, and are desperate for money to pay off their massive debt to the loanshark / gun smugglers...

I would like to point out another rule that has truckloads of impact when beeing played: Movement.

> You have to chose your movement at the start of the turn and it's modifiers count for the full turn.

> More Initiative passes doesn't make you move faster. let's say you run 28m per combat turn. With Initiative 21, it means that you will have moved 9,3 m per IP. I house ruled that by allowing to spend a Complex Action to add [successes] to Quickness for movement, when per raw, you roll only once if I remember correctly.

Now it limits seriously some abilities to fight melee. At 40m away, the melee character could have to take 5-6 shots by a quick opponent before reaching melee.


When you do not play that rule, a natural tendency is to consider that 1-2 actions are spend to reach melee range, an assumption that is a standart one in med-fans.


In shadowrun, it's a bit tougher to do.

In Seattle, there is/was a Street Gang that does smuggling and arms sales, The Cutters. The Novel Lone Wolf details their decimation in 2054.

@ Cochise, Tiralee, Kren Cooper, sk8bcn, and Shaidar:

Great points. Thanks, guys!
I'll be sure to write up a little synopsis of Saturday's action, let you all know how it went.

Alright, here's how last night's session went down (spoiler alert from now on):

[Scene 1]
We started at the second meeting with Carrone, in which he asks the team to execute a raid on the Amber Gel processing plant under revision of the terms of their previous contract.
Our team managed to add to their side of the renegotiation, raising their fee to 100.000 pax plus new SINs all around (they had compromised their old ones when they went to interview Burroughs). Carrone, never timid to show his disapproval of their gall in asking him to expand his already generous offer, denies Wong the mage his request to be paid in MegaMedia bonds. He laughs as Smoke the decker tries to stand his ground on royalties for any future media exploitations of the raid (as expressed in the contract), implying that he can either sign the contract as is, or he can wait with the now three-fingered Spyder (the team's main fixer who got kidnapped to leverage the players into complying) in some MegaMedia sponsored dungeon somewhere. Smoke relented in the end.

So this is the first point in which I'd like to make a personal note: first time in my GMing life that I felt that my playing an NPC's demeanour consistently, against a player roleplaying his as he sees it, would lead to serious consequences. Smoke was vehemently refusing to sign the contract unless some non-negotiable terms got dropped. Carrone wasn't having it, and he was gagging to have one of the runners shot in front of everyone else to prove his point that this deal, to him, is more like the runners buying their lives back after kidnapping Euphoria the first time. I was ready to seriously injure a PC, just to show the others that some NPCs are simply too far above their paygrade at the moment. Best case scenario, he would have been held in custody while the rest of the team completed the mission, effectively leaving his player out of the session. I feel that I shouldn't let the NPCs be pushed around by players aware of the relatively much higher importance of their "PC status", but I also don't think it would be right to lock a PC out of the action when his player did show up and won't have any other chance than to sit there for the duration of the session.

[Scene 2]
MegaMedia-appointed vehicles drive the players to meet Warden, the armourer. He's instructed to give them what they want, with few limitations. He doesn't have the higher echelons of Heavy Weaponry, he doesn't have any drones and he doesn't have any magic gear. Kurt the dwarf rigger, clearly underestimating the missions before them, only takes a box of EX-explosive shotgun slugs. Smoke the elf decker takes a Ruger Thunderbolt, two clips of APDS, some assorted grenades and a couple kilos of plastic explosives just in case. Ada the human shaman takes a Ruger Thunderbolt, plus one clip of APDS and one of EX-explosive. Wong the human mage takes nothing, having chosen to only (and barely) invest in the retarded Gun Cane skill and thus unable to find appropriate weaponry. Jade the ork streetsam takes an ultrasound-capable Ingram Valiant mounted on a max-gyro. The team's newest recruit, Akuma the human physad, takes a couple clips of APDS for his already tricked-out SMG, plus some grenades. They all get custom-tailored armour, providing the maximum protection their Quickness stat would allow. That includes a helmet with vision enchancement options (flare comp, low-light, thermo, etc). Jade very mindfully asked the guy to fit flashlights into their helmet as well. They're ready to roll.

Do you reckon I did the right thing with the armour? Instead of a 7/7 suit of medium armour for everyone, like the adventure says, they all got max armour for their Quickness. I thought shortening the weakest player's combat pool would be overkill (only 3 characters have the Quickness for a 7/7, and they also happen to be the ones with the highest combat pools). Also, given the true-forms' ability to paralyze, their Quickness will probably still drop further, so their false safety in armour will actually turn into a trap once they get slapped by a Force 5 and have to incur in CB penalties anyway.
As for the rest, do you think the guys are underpowered? Overpowered? One mage, one shaman, one LMG, one pistols (lol) and grenades, one SMG and unarmed, one shotguns. Two can banish and engage in astral, plus engage in Willpower combat. Another two possibly could, as well, though I'm not entirely sure it is a great move to do so (though it bypasses the bug's armour factor).

[Scene 3]
They arrive at the control point set up by Carrone, already in sight of the plant. They notice there's a guy in the roof, weirdly enough, just standing there and not seeming to mind their movements outside the perimeter. Astral perception at this distance shows nothing out of the ordinary (I decided last session to give bug spirits powerful aural masking). One of Carrone's security advisors adds that there's another guy, also civilian looking, patrolling around the building. He points at a remote-operated cargo truck with a Stryce Foods logo to the side and tells them it's one of the trucks used to carry Amber Gel from this place to the packaging center. Ada the shaman summons a spirit of man, and asks it to guard them.
Kurt uses the truck to drive the team inside the compound, Trojan horse style. The automated gates outside open as the vehicle approaches. The two weirdos inside start getting agitated as the van approaches the loading area. From the truck window, Wong the mage casts levitate on the roof guy. As he does, the other one makes a run for the door. Akuma the physad jumps out and blasts him with an SMG burst. Immediately after, out comes Jade squeezing an LMG burst. She positively purées the little fella. As she casts a cheeky glance at the physad, Wong brings the levitated roof guy down into the ground, cracking him open like an egg.

They managed to drop both before either could run inside, but two bursts were fired, on top of the roof guy's screams of agony as he got flicked down to his death. Some scuttling can be heard inside, increasingly distant. Ada the shaman asks his spirit to go investigate inside, and in seconds feels that the spirit got disrupted. He and Wong immediately switch on astral perception, and get jumped by two true-form soldiers. The book suggests Force 5, but I scaled it back to Force 3. Before they could even hope to act, there's one ant on top of each. Wong manages to win the combat struggle, and hits the ant for a Moderate. Ada gets chomped, but soaks it completely. Ada then Banishes his spirit in one go, while Wong tries to engage the other but gets countered and bitten for a moderate wound. On the spirit's second pass, Wong gets hit again but soaks. Ada turns his banishing towards Wong's spirit, and chips away two points of its Force. Wong then attacks it, and manages to finish it off. Ada fully heals Wong's Moderate wound, as the rest of the team checks their options for getting in. And this is where we ended the session.

At this point, I realized we took WAAAY too long getting there. At just over 4 hour session time I think we should have been able to get much further into the hive, possibly even conclude with maybe another hour on top. But well, there was a new player, for a total of six, and an inordinate amount of OoC banter was bogging things down. Mental note to sort this.
I also horribly mangled astral combat, because I was pretty using astral projected combat rules on astral perceiving combat. On hand, it sucks because it was a huge mistake that I will now have to rectify with the players. On the other hand, I have zero doubt that both characters would have straight up died if I forced them to use their physical stats and skills to defend. Besides my mistake with projection vs perception (heavily to their advantage), I also toned the spirits down from 5 to 3, and still had to fumble the dice twice to avoid insta-kills. Squishy as they are, defending with their physical stats against astral threats with incredibly high initiative is a guaranteed one hit one kill for these two guys, while no one else in the team even knows what's happening.

Other issues were raised, but I can't remember them now (we had a bit much to drink, to be honest). As they get mentioned by my players, I'll be sure to consult with the Dumpshock thinktank.

Since I believe you're asking for feedback, a couple of points:

1.) Re the confrontation with the NPC over contract renegotiation: in general, if you feel that a player character is asking for something in character that makes no sense (i.e. he can't really renegotiate the substantive clauses in his contract because the NPC would rather have him shot than change the terms) and would be obvious in the game world (i.e. under this set of circumstances megacorps aren't known to negotiate), you can tell the player to roll Intelligence against TN4.

If he gets any successes just say that in character he realizes that his situation is untenable and that it wouldn't be unheard of to have the megacorp shoot him or something instead of renegotiating. You're not telling him as the GM he shouldn't do that, but you're telling him that in character his character knows that he is treading on thin ice given the conventions of the game world.

A lot of times this stuff comes down to the player and GM having different ideas in their head about the same thing, so the "common sense" roll helps to clear things up.

2.) If a player doesn't ask for enough ammo or big enough guns, it probably comes down to the player and the GM having different ideas in their head about the situation. So you can just have the quartermaster comment that he doesn't seem to have enough ammo for a combat loadout, and just slap down a couple extra boxes for the character without further comment. Likewise, just because someone only knows how to use a gun cane, that doesn't mean that the quartermaster can't slap down a shotgun and bandoliers of flechette ammunition as standard issue if the character expresses no preference. "Don't know how to shoot? Sounds like you need a shotgun! I've already set the choke wide for you. You'll thank me when the chips are down." The character doesn't have to actually take it but it helps to ensure that being inappropriately equipped (going on a bug hunt with a gun cane is almost visual comedy; I see Aleister Crowley getting eaten by an Aliens 2 alien) is a matter of character choice and not any kind of misunderstanding or miscommunication.

3.) LOL at the heavy armor bit. I would have gone with the heavy armor but instead of the armor having a camo pattern or whatever, I'd have the characters look like NASCAR drivers with the armor covered by corporate sponsor patches. Make the whole thing seem like a combination of world at stake as well as corporate bloodsport feeding frenzy.

4.) To speed things along, you might consider making some spreadsheets or charts ahead of time that will help you to have all the relevant stats at your fingertips and give you plenty of room to mark down wound modifiers etc. Having a whiteboard you use as a battlemat just to quickly demonstrate relative positions of all the NPCs will be easier and faster than verbally describing everything. You don't need models, just dry erase markers to keep track of where everyone is.

5.) Just for fun, since this is a bug hunt, consider dimming the lights and having the Aliens 2 soundtrack playing softly in the background. Award 1 bonus karma point to anyone who utters an Aliens line, if it is appropriate and if it is the first time that this particular line has been heard. (E.g. "Game over man! Game over!")

6.) Since you've made it clear that without a lot of fudging some of the PCs would have been toast by now anyway, and since things get worse from here on out, you might consider ahead of time whether you would rather have a bunch of PCs die in the assault and have the difficulty, tactics, and risk be the engine of the excitement, or if you would prefer not to kill the PCs and instead choose to focus on atmosphere as the engine of the excitement for the evening. If you want to emphasize atmosphere you can re-write the encounters at an appropriate level and if there are less bodies involved in combat the scenario will also go a lot faster.

Hiya Melquisedeq-

Wow, your guys are dead.

About the ONLY way you can ensure there's NOT a tpk about 100 meters into the hive is to come across the congealed remains of another team, who were armed for bear, and hopefully your team had enough brains to loot like a mofo. The street monster with the Valient and maybe the SMG player (Who sound like they were the combat-orientated monsters) might last that long, against the low-level workers.

I'd strongly recommend that you play the above scene, along with a half-missing briefing packet detailing roughly what the team is in for, just to help them along. And frankly, if someone's got a flamethrower, the TN's are going to be minimal in a tunnel. Oh, and the reason why the team was slaughtered, have some half-smashed magic/science hybrid and some hokey pseudo-science ready to explain that they were sent in to "disrupt" the hive and capture the queen

OOOOh, even better, if someone's techy in your team, they can play back the simrig that was intact so they can see just what a maddened, frothing "mutant bug" swarm will do to a team that's not expecting it. (That way, you can explain that the device, instead of calming the hive workers, sent them into a frenzy, which explains their low stats, "they're tired" Once your players have collectively shit their armoured pants, you might point out that they were taken down so fast, most of their equipment (not armour, oh noooooooo...) was intact.

And if you can, toss in a steel Lynx for the rigger (it could be carrying the "device") because DGIF (Drones Go In First).



And after they've ignored the breadcrumbs, get them to read through this thread and tell them that oblivious is a terrible trait disadvantage.

KILL!

-Tir.

ummm wow yeah, no amount of armour and pimped out guns can ever even the odds for a team with:

No strategies
No experience
No Karma
No Clue

I'd seriously consider letting them make a sharp exit and run a more trench-coat style adventure where gun-canes, and the like can actually be useful as well as stylish.

Think this is a classic case of disparate expectations between players and GM.
(I'm not calling you out on it here btw, I think I'm fairly safe is assuming we have all done this as players or GM many times)

having to fudge the dice to allow them to survive cheats them of any success (and leads them to believe they are more powerful than thye are)
and cheats you of any fun.

@ Wounded Ronin, Tiralee and Mach_Ten:

These guys do have some Karma (should be around 40 for most of them) and are able to think strategically (we're all educated guys in our 30's, with a penchant for action over other styles in RPGs, videogames, boardgames, literature, etc), but neither players nor characters really know the first thing about bugs other than having played Shadowrun Returns. (Well, I do, but I'm the GM).

In the example I gave, of True Form spirits waiting to pounce, that's a standard encounter from the adventure book, anyone astrally scouting just outside the factory is supposed to be jumped by those two spirits. The book expresses no expectation of a higher Karma party, and I think the free weapon buffet is supposed to both cushion less powerful parties, and to let the players know that they should expect heavy heat.

Nonetheless, I think I'll go the progressive route scaling the opposition to the players instead of going (TF3x6 + TF5x2) like the book says.
I mean, it's not so bad. Shadowrun 3 is the game of glass cannons we all know it is, anyway. What happened there was the idiot mages waited to get inside to scout, after having killed a couple fleshforms already, so the trueforms were literally just waiting for them to show up in astral in order to attack them. Also, if the mages had projected instead of perceiving, they would have used their astral forms' stats instead of their crappy physical stats, which would perhaps still not be enough against two F5, but I believe it would have sufficed against two F3 soldiers. At least they'd have a similar number of IPs, and better combat capabilities.

I noted that I might have to reserve the rest of the true-form soldiers for the grand finale, and until then just throw a couple waves of flesh forms instead. Purely physical threats, these guys can take them, for the most part.

And absolutely yes, I agree that fumbling dice cheapens the player's worth (not that they know about it), and gives way to hubris (because they don't know about it), but as opposed to character death, which last session was inevitable once and highly probable the second time, I think it's a necessary evil. Asking a player to stat up a new character just because the written adventure had no care for balance, or because the players weren't in the exact same mindset that the adventure designer was when he wrote it, is bad form in my opinion.

Oh, another doubt that occured to the mage player: if he has Masking, can the spirits detect him astrally perceiving or what? Because they don't have metamagic feats or Initiate levels (do they?), but on the other hand they're natural astral beings, they should innately have many of the abilities that mages, essentially physical beings that they are, need to train and study to acquire. I told the guy that the spirits witnessed him levitating their buddy off the roof. He went "Alright, so they know I'm a mage because of that, but how could they know I was projecting and thus be able to target me? They should have both targetted the shaman, at least until I engaged first." Thoughts on this? Masking does say that, when perceiving, your aura still looks mundane, so even if you were going around casting all the spells in the world how would an astral entity know that it could engage you (not counting a perception roll to pierce masking, of course)?

not sure for normal bugs if they are dual natured?
but if so, anything with a spell sustained, or even astrally perceiving let alone projecting, is suddenly a beacon of magic ... and thus a target.

mundanes have an aura in astral ... anything magical in nature glows like a glowy thing while snorting LSD and whirling batons made of glow sticks dancing the conga with the glowy people of glowland!.

so, umm yeah, he stands out

Apologies, not calling anyones intelligence into question, I actually meant to emphasise character over player.

No experience of bugs
little karma from dealing with normal runs
small unit tactics built for normal runs
etc.

look what happens to the military team sent to help Ripley with the aliens ... all their experience and gear and stuff meant Nothing in the bug hunt

they should be rolling in here with tanks and flamers

they ALSO should have done what normal runners do ... LEGWORK .. a whole session of it .. to avoid having to go in in force in the first place

With the Hooper-Nelson rule, even a TPK can be changed into an exciting prolongement.

Euphoria ends up beeing beyond recognition and can't be saved, but what if the fiasco/TPK get transformed into a new exciting arc. It would be something non-raw ofc. What if the PC downed/dead/unconcious would be taken by the hive and get something inside them (assuming Hooper-Nelson rule=alive)?

Say 3 goes down, 2 flee, looking for help.

Let's say (for the sake of the story): most of the hive flees, knowing that their position is known and unsafe. The 2 come back with help from [somebody - Ares - Telestrian - Harlequin - Dunkelzahn - COPS - .....].

Euphoria's still there, likewise the PC. The hive hadn't enough time to take the cocoons too. Contrary to Euphoria, they wake up.

But, they dream strange dreams...abouts bugs....
They might have a spirit into them.
Now they gotta find a way to get rid of that, and better quick.

Why not linking it to Harlequin, which could end with: finally beating the hive; doing an astral quest to obliterate the spirits into them.



IMO, the best way to handle a full botch, is to let it botch, and see what you can build from there on.

Strictly speaking: No exact answer possible on a "RAW" basis. The rules on piercing a mage's masking on an explicit level only deal with other initiates or wih regards of an initiate trying to pierce the masking of an magical / paranormal entity with the aura masking ability.

Now the "problem" is that initiate is required to know the masking technique so it's not unreasonable to assume that for other magical entities it's not a requirement either (in terms of possessing the aura masking ability). But the the question is: what would be the equivalent of being an initiate for a spirit entity in general or insect spirits in particular? Being a True Form? Being a Great Form spirit? Or being a Free Spirit?
Additionally one could of course argue that spirits (with the possible exception of lower constructs like watchers) are reasonably well "in tune" with magic to allow them to pierce masking without additional requirements.

I guess you'll have to make up your mind on that on your own.



I seem to recall that it has been mentioned before: Masking the astral body to appear as a "normal" aura while projecting is pretty much instantly recognized by any astral entity due to the missing "shadow" of a physical body that normally goes along with such an aura. The important part there being: They still see the "aura" and can attack in standard astral combat. They just would't be able to use "ranged" astral attacks in the form spell casting (which most spirits don't have access to anyway).
Just using perception and masking is slightly different however ...



Just as with the projection scenario an astral entity could attack what he perceives as a "normal" aura and still hit the astral body behind that mask in standard "astral combat" (which is melee). The equivalents of "touch" and other sensory input are not affected by masking. That one just affects "astral" vision. Debates will arise whether or not visibility modifiers should apply.

Now as far as the astral entity knowing that he was astrally active: The rules for noticing spell casting also work on the astral and by the "laws" of astral vs. physical space only an astrally present entity is able to manipulate mana on the astral plane in order to attack a strictly astrally present spirit entity. The spirits you described are reasonably intelligent enough to "know" that. So if one or both was still only astrally present and even knew beforehand that a certain aura belonged to a magic wielder and got attacked by a spell it could certainly deduce that this is somehow related to said aura ... despite not necessarily having pierced the masking. And even if it hadn't that explicit knowledge it could have opted for "trial and error" on such a melee attack before deciding on materializing to get to that source of danger.

True, but Masking explicitly states that your aura itself appears mundane. So what the guy claims is that spirits cannot astrally attack him, when he's astrally perceiving, any more than they could astrally attack a mundane on whom a spell is being sustained (which the rules say they can't).

Basically, a normal mage, whenever he's perceiving, switches on a beacon above his head that lets nearby astral beings know that, while said beacon is on, the mage is dual-natured and thus targetable by mana attacks and astral combat...
The interpretation of masking that his guy proposes, and that I actually would like someone to dispel for me because I myself don't find logical fault with it, is that, for an astrally perceiving mage with masking, the beacon stays off, and thus his temporary dual nature is undetectable.
This seems to fall in line with the description of masking's ineffectiveness when projecting, because they specifically say that what gives you off is not any change in your aura, but instead the fact that a mundane aura with no physical shadow to go with it is clearly unnatural in the astral plane. In other words, the fact that the beacon is off IS what raises suspicion.


No need, I didn't think you were


On this bit, though, I have to say that I don't think my interpretation of the published adventure is any wrong, really, nor has the player's trajectory so far deviated in any major way from what seems to be the adventure's expectations. They haven't skipped any major clues or scenes, and have acquired every piece of legwork that the module explicitly offers up to this point - which, regarding the hive-occupied processing plant, is nothing more than its map and address. No other info is supposed to be handed to them before they go in. This is adventure is intended to keep it obscure, weird and creepy, it happens in the early 2050's when bugs were, at best, a laughed at conspiracy theory spat by schizophrenic cart-ladies or written in excrement on a public bathroom's stall door. It should pre-date the Universal Brotherhood events, and the whole Chicago thing too. Letting them get too much on the bugs should be counter-productive here. The manuscript from Universal Brotherhood is a fantastic way to deliver a lot of info at once, but it has an explanation in that adventure. This one doesn't have anything like it.

So I think I'll just let them test out the do's and dont's of their enemy, gradually. I'll probably have Carrone send them a drone as well, why not... I mean, there SHOULD be heavy risk in this run, the planned rewards will be off the hook for what the party is used to getting at this point in the campaign.

He's incorrect insofar as masking only (somewhat) hides the astral body from the visual aspect of astral perception. The astral body can still be touched / harmed by other astral entities ... just like a melee fighter can still hit a person under the invisibility spell and unlike invisibility the astral body "showing" as an aura still means that the astral attacker can actually "see" the general placement of what its trying to hit.



No such thing as "mana attack". You're talking spell casting with LOS requirement there. One could even argue that spells with range of touch still work once the astral entity comes into contact with the masked astral body. But Non-Free spirits rarely have spell casting abilities and/or mana-based spells.




The beacon in terms of the more vivid / colorful astral body indeed stays off. Yet the "undetectable" part is simply not true. Touch / melee still works as the astral body is still there and it's not even totally removed in a manner that would impose a blind fighting modifier to melee attacks against it.



Now the lack of the "Beacon" doesn't raise suspicion on its own. But successful casts against purely astral beings does. Just as touching the astral body "by chance" gives it away.

the difference is though that while he is astrally perceiving he IS dual natured. He can mask the appearance of it, but he is still present enough on the astral to be affected/attacked.

A spirit trying to pass through him would bounce back as they are both astrally solid to each other, unlike the rest of mundanes that might be around. Granted he is less likely to be noticed, but if there was reason for suspicion (spirits been around long enough to know things like masking exist) a simple poke test can go a long ways.

It's just like invisibility on the regular realm, just because I can't see you doesn't mean you couldn't get hit by a stray bullet or ran over by a car.

In 3rd edition, is there a distinction between aura and astral form. Just because an aura appears mundane doesn't necessarily mean that the astral form is not recognized as being in astral space.

Up there, when it says "Alright, so they know I'm a mage because of that, but how could they know I was projecting and thus be able to target me? They should have both targetted the shaman, at least until I engaged first." it's a mistake. I meant to write perceiving (astrally). The projection part we already dealt with Sorry for the confusion. Same thing with "mana attacks", I meant mana spells (in the astral) and astral attacks.

Also, the example I meant with "spells left and right" was of course referring exclusively to spells cast in the physical plane against physical entities. The spirit would be in the astral plane seeing the mage cast spells in the physical plane against a physical target. Those spells manifest in the astral as well, so the spirit can tell that the guy is a mage, but the mage doesn't need to enter the astral plane to cast those spells in the physical, so he is not vulnerable to said spirit. Spirit know this, so it waits. Mage finishes the physical enemy off, then switches astral perception on. Immediately sees the spirit just standing there looking at him. But because of masking, the spirit doesn't know that he guy started perceiving as is now a valid target. What the spirit sees is the exact same it saw when the guy was purely physical, because of masking. Unless the mage does something that directly affects astral space, the spirit should keep assuming that the mage hasn't changed his previous status from "astrally offline" to "astrally online"... Hope it made my hypothetical scenario clearer.

On to the meatier subject: yeah, I understand that a spirit CAN attack him when he's perceiving, even if it doesn't look like he's perceiving. But my question is WHY WOULD IT?
Because that's the logical follow-up in the guy's defense of his interpretation. For a spirit to choose to astrally attack what is, as far as it knows, either a mundane aura or an awakened one that isn't astrally perceiving at the moment, in the off chance that it could be masking, seems a bit weird. People should be getting randomly "ghost attacked", then, right? By overzealous spirits making sure they aren't masked mages astrally perceiving...

It seems that, like Cochise said, there's no RAW reading, and even RAI doesn't have much to go on (or perhaps too much). If astral touch is the only confirmation possible, and I find that there's no strong reason for spirits to go bumping into everyone they see "just in case", then I'll have to accept his interpretation. With enormous pain.

@Shemhazai: Yes, I believe so. Your astral form is the incorporeal shape your spirit takes when you step out of your meat body and go astrally projecting. In that scenario, your Astral Form will carry your aura as well (not sure if a vestigial aura is left in your empty body or not). Every living thing has an aura. Most living things can't have an astral form. I'm not 100% sure, though.

I will preface this post by stating that I am going from memory but I recall that there is a RAW reading.

The aura is a pale insubstantial reflection of the living form on the astral plan. The aura has no substance and is clearly perceived as not having substance in the astral plane. An aura can reflect the Awakened "state" of the aura - an Awakened aura is brighter/more colorful/etc. To use a non-RAW description (since I am going by memory), an aura is translucent, you can see through it, it is insubstantial. A astral form is different. An astral form is solid in the astral plane. For the lack of a better analogy, it is astrally "opaque".

My memory and understanding of the situation is that most spirits will operate under the belief that mundane entities shouldn't normally impede their passage and thus wouldn't avoid travelling through them to get where they want to go. So, bumping into mundanes really doesn't happen, thus a masked mage having chosen to appear mundane would result in a scenario similar to a small bird flying into a sliding glass door as the spirit rebounds off of the mage's astral form which appears as though it is mundane and to the spirits perspective shouldn't have posed any resistance to its passage.

Emphasis mine,

it is NOT invisibility to astral denizens, it's more Camo Paint for trying to not get noticed against the astral backdrop
The masking tones down your ever present aura to that of a mundane person, who STILL has an aura in astral but cannot be affected

so no effort is expended on the mages part to maintain it

So, your masked mage is sneaking around, able to peek into the Astral and still be stealthy-ish,
with the risk of a powerful spirit spotting him despite his best attempts to be low profile

BUT, as soon as he starts flinging spells or carrying magical items (Unless they are masked)
then BOOM! .. it's GO time baby!
and even if not there is a good chance he will be spotted by a stronger presence
I see initiate here as meaning any astral or dual natured denizen
I Would suggest Force vs Magic rating as the example on this page.

The other thing to note

the Astral world is referred to as the Mirror World.
so any spirits hanging around in astral in the hive will see a mirror of the real world :
worker aura, worker aura, worker aura, worker aura, ... Soldier Aura, worker aura, worker aura, .... Mundane HumanfoodtastylemmattitIwannaEATHISFACE!!

the sheer presence of something "Not one of us!" will have the spirits hanging around in Astral drooling over the mundane auras.

Regardless of if you are a masked magician or not, you are still a mundane tasty morsel in the heart of the spiders web!

nom nom nom!

Actually the spirit wouldn't necessarily "see" that under the premise that the mage is indeed masking himself. You'd actually have to differentiate between Elemental Manipulations vs. any other spell (both physical and mana-based) cast against physical targets. Unless it's an Elemental Manipulation the manipulation of Mana for a spell occurs at the spell's target and has its own aura on the astral and carries the caster's signature. That aura itself only exists for the duration of the spell whereas the signature remains at the location of the spell for IIRC Force hours (unless deliberately cleansed). As far as SR3 is concerned spells do not travel from the caster to the target and do not create a direct link. Thus an astral observer would not automatically be able to identify the caster - particularly not in cases where the caster is masked. The masking would even prevent the observer from verifying the signature of the observed spell against the signature within the caster's own aura because the signature therein is masked along with the aura.

Elemental Manipulations however are created at the location of the caster and are then "thrown" at the actual target. In such cases the astral observer could pretty much instantly identify the caster as such.



The first question there is: Why would it wait? Was explicitly it ordered to do so? Active spell casting against his allies could as well lead to other reactions like materializing or - depending on how you rule on spirit abilities to pierce masking - trying to identify the caster by other means.



Generally speaking: Yes, the spirit could keep assuming that. However, the higher its force, the more intelligent it is. So even in cases where it's unable to pierce masking it could still be aware that masking exists. So instead of just waiting it could certainly prepare itself for that by constantly moving itself through suspected auras in order to find a potentially masked aura. Successful movement through auras would alert the respective entities of the spirit's presence and could thus influence the mage's decision of shifting his perception but if he dares shifting regardless he could face the situation where the spirit isn't just waiting but bumps into his masked astral body.

With spirits being somewhat intelligent and even capable of having certain emotions you could even argue for a situation where a spirit - after being ordered to perform guard duty with the explicit demand of staying astral - gets "frustrated" when witnessing killings of its allies on the physical plane. As a result of such a "frustration" you could certainly argue that instead of just waiting on a fixed position the spirit might start circling and passing through auras in the (normally) futile attempt of harming something that - on a logical level - cannot be harmed. Consider the joy when it bumps into a masked astral body then ...



It all boils down to circumstances. Depending on intelligence, general knowledge on behalf of the spirit and details of the situation (both in terms of exact orders as well as observed situation) a spirit could certainly resort to a tactic where it intentionally or unintentionally tries to attack auras at random for the "off chance" of hitting a masked aura. Add in the "alien" thought patterns of spirits in general and insect spirits in particular and ...



... you might indeed see things like that happen on one occasion while in others the spirit in question just stubbornly waits until the masked mage actively gives away his astral presence.



I hope that I have relieved that pain to a certain degree. And don#t forget: Since RAW and RAI do not provide the required details, you as GM are firmly within your rights to allow spirits to pierce masking thus removing the defense the player of the masked mage brought forth.

Thanks toturi, Shaidar, Mach_Ten and Cochise (this sounds an awful lot like a runner team to me)!

Now I know how to curb the guy's enthusiasm with his masking. He really is convinced that his one level of initiation plus Masking is a proper elite shtick that barely anyone else in the world has, needs to be brought down a couple pegs.

A new question if I may: imagine someone's wielding a ready firearm, like a pistol or a rifle, and gets attacked in melee. Since swinging firearms in melee is governed by the Clubs skill, does that person defend with Clubs, and default if they cannot, or do they just use Unarmed?

This doubt is in the line of a few others questions above, from a perceived notion of mine that melee really shouldn't get as nerfed as it is, being a staple of the genre and all. Even in terms of coherence in the game world, a guy with Unarmed 5 or 6 is probably not just sidestepping and kicking back when he's rolling to defend against melee, he's going into full combat stance and throwing up all manner of katas, doesn't make sense to me that he does it all without losing his "ready weapon" action declared 5 turns ago. Unless he was pistolwhiping or rifle stabbing or something (in which case he'd be using Clubs), doesn't seem likely that he'd finish a short but intense sequence of Jet Li-esque unarmed attacks parrys and counters, without having to drop his gun. Let alone have it secure in both hands with the finger already inside the trigger guard...