Which is better and why? Options

[Wolfman]

I just learned I will have to GM a game on Friday nights, starting this week...
Still to be decided, which edition will we use? 3rd, 4rth(20th Anniversary) or 5th?
Which Version should we use? Which edition is better for new players?

[Glyph]

Third and Fourth editions are the ones with the most complete, comprehensive, and errata'd rulesets. SR3 follows the first two editions, while SR4 drastically changes and revises the game mechanics. No edition of Shadowrun is really that friendly to new players - it is a fairly complex game. But SR3 and SR4 both have overviews of the history of the game world, at least.

SR3 is more classic cyberpunk, from the time before we had things like smartphones and people being able to record things on them anywhere. SR4, while it keeps the game's premise of romanticized criminals doing shady jobs for shady corporations, reflects the modern world a bit more (with everyone using commlinks rather than smartphones). Both rulesets have their strong and weak points, with SR4 being slightly less complex. But both sets of the rules have been out long enough to be revised and tweaked enough to be playable and consistent.

SR5 is the newest version, but I would not recommend it at this time. It has severe editing problems, inconsistent rules, and too many new, unfun hindrances to keep track of - what's my overwatch score? Will the background count short out my power focus? Will a hacker short out my cybereyes? Will I get less hits because this gun has a low accuracy rating? Will my spirit refuse to do something because it doesn't match the purpose (combat, detection, etc.) that my tradition says it is associated with? In SR3 and SR4, you can just play your hacker/decker, mage, or street samurai.

[SpellBinder]

Personally I'd suggest SR4 out of the three. From the tales I've been told about SR3, trying to play a hacker or a rigger can be a nightmare in complexity. I can't say this from personal experience, but I will say that trying to figure out the hacker rules for SR3 compared to SR4 or SR5 is difficult.

And I'd double what Glyph says about SR5 and its plague of issues.

[Wolfman]

So I guess SR4 it's going to be then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Thanks guys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[binarywraith]

If you want SR20A's rules but with the older cyberpunk flavor, there's a solution for that too.

Shadowrun 2050. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Blade]

For new players you can use 5th ed I guess. It has bad aspects, but so does 4th ed, and I don't think the problems of SR5 will confuse players more than those of SR4 would.

[Wolfman]

If you want SR20A's rules but with the older cyberpunk flavor, there's a solution for that too.

Shadowrun 2050. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In my opinion, Shadowrun 2050 was the biggest pile of drek to come out in a long time....fifty some pages telling you that you can do cool stuff.... without anything to back it up... try running a decker with that book and we'll talk...

[nezumi]

I'm a huge fan of 3rd edition. IMO it's the best for tactical gameplay, player agency, and the cyberpunk feel. However, it is the most complex (especially for riggers. For deckers the rules aren't especially difficult, just poorly explained.) So this really comes down to knowing your group. If your group are wargamers, or if they are comfortable with math, SR3 would be my first choice.

Out of SR4 vs. SR5, I've played both and prefer SR5 by a nose, but I've not had to run either, so I haven't had to deal with the editing issues. To me, they seem to be pretty similar mechanically. SR4 especially seems to be the "I just want mechanics to get out of the way so I can tell a story" system.

[silva]

Is someone really recommending 4th edition with that atrocious point-buy, which makes things complex and slow as a turtle and full of pitfalls for beginners ?

No way. For that alone, 5th edition is better.

[Stahlseele]

SR3 is best.
Trolls are still viable, there are rules for EVERYTHING.
Shamanic and Hermetic Magic are vastly different.
Each Tradition has it's own unique ruleset to set it apart.
No wireless anything if you don't want it.
No constant sin checking and cyberware scanning.
The setting is more lenient and allows for more Pink Mohawk.

It has the best character generator you can find. NSRCG3.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is someone really recommending 4th edition with that atrocious point-buy, which makes things complex and slow as a turtle and full of pitfalls for beginners ?

No way. For that alone, 5th edition is better.

Indeed, I would heartily support SR4/SR4A and their Character generation System... Character generation is pretty darn easy in SR4/SR4A. The only impediment (and it plagues all versions) is Equipment buy. If you are assisting Beginners (and why would you not, because there are pitfalls in every edition in Chargen) the pitfalls are easy to avoid.


Priority Sucks balls, and the SR5 expanded Character creation options are not any better.

[DeathStrobe]

I'd go 5th, just because the Matrix resolves faster and direct magic isn't insanely broken but instead has a niche at attacking high defence targets.

Also, if you play with all the options of SR4, you'll run in to problems that players that know how to abuse the system can become very out of hand and totally destroy the setting. Like stacking gear/magic to get 25+ dice pools.

[Mantis]

I'd go 5th, just because the Matrix resolves faster and direct magic isn't insanely broken but instead has a niche at attacking high defence targets.

Also, if you play with all the options of SR4, you'll run in to problems that players that know how to abuse the system can become very out of hand and totally destroy the setting. Like stacking gear/magic to get 25+ dice pools.

That shouldn't be a problem with new players.

I'd go with 4th ed, use the karma build for characters and use chummer to take care of the math. No matter which edition you chose, the biggest stumbling block is going to be buying gear and cyberware. I'd look through the gear as GM, figure out the must haves (or ask on here) and then figure out what that costs and make sure every player buys that basic kit. Generally this will be armour, commlink, tag eraser (yeah everyone should have one), Fake SIN and licenses, ammo and a weapon, ear and eye mods (earbuds and contact lenses or glasses or goggles with mods) and so forth. If you go with 5th ed, you can use the packs from Run Faster or if you go with 4th ed, you can use the PACKS system from Runner's Toolkit.

Shadowrun is a fun game world to play in but it has always suffered from gear bloat and for new players that can be a big turn off. Anyway, to pick a flavour and have fun.

[Not of this Worl...]

5th edition for now for the ruleset, but its 3rd edition setting all the way. Most of the rules are streamlined with few enough exceptions as to be easy for new players. Plus my old players can still play an old fashioned Decker or Shaman if they want.

5th edition fiction & setting is hit and miss, not sure what it wants to be. Still trying to appeal to 4th edition & traditional fans at the same time. I don't think it will work out and they need to focus on a vision of the game world.

[Glyph]

I'd go 5th, just because the Matrix resolves faster and direct magic isn't insanely broken but instead has a niche at attacking high defence targets.

Also, if you play with all the options of SR4, you'll run in to problems that players that know how to abuse the system can become very out of hand and totally destroy the setting. Like stacking gear/magic to get 25+ dice pools.

SR5 just basically swaps direct and indirect spells around, as far as which is the go-to and which is the niche. Spirits are even more broken, though. And SR5 does not curb min-maxing. Characters may be relatively less powerful compared to the best of the best (since skills cap out at 12 now), but you can still make all kinds of monstrosities with the basic book alone.

[Smash]

Is someone really recommending 4th edition with that atrocious point-buy, which makes things complex and slow as a turtle and full of pitfalls for beginners ?

No way. For that alone, 5th edition is better.

Agreed. In addition, the matrix and rigger rules in 4th Ed are mechanically a train-wreck. You can not like the way they are implemented in 5th, but you can read them 3 times in 5th and have some idea what you're supposed to do.

5th Ed all the way. 3rd Ed is ok, as long as you ban Trolls and if you have to play 4th pretty much ban anything that isn't a human, elf, ork or dwarf.......... the matrix....... cars and half the spells.

[freudqo]

3rd Ed is ok, as long as you ban Trolls

Why is that??

[Medicineman]

SR3 is best.

Meh !
If You want done something right, do it Yourself !!
In my newest Round we're using a Mix from SR4A & SR5 Rules ( we call it SR4.5A ) with Houserules Cherries on Top
and playing in 2055 .That means no Hassle with WiFi blarney and more Pink Mohawk for everybody (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

He who dances with a Pink Mohawk
Medicineman

[Sendaz]

Why is that??

Because in SR3 Trolls pretty much wear blue tights with a big Shadowrun 'S' on their chest with only a Soy/Sunlight/(random pick) Allergy as their kryptonite. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And we love them for it.

[freudqo]

I quite understood they might have a hard time selling a used car or doing crosswords.

Oh, and to answer the initial post: I would go with SR3, because I much more liked the floating TNs mechanics. Made hard tasks hard, and skills were rewarded correctly, IMO. Plus, if the priority system sucks balls, as implied Tymeaus Jalynsfein, it must be understood as a situation where you like to have your balls sucked and someone does this really good. Priority makes it really so simple to build a first character you like, corresponding to what you expected, and functional.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I quite understood they might have a hard time selling a used car or doing crosswords.

Oh, and to answer the initial post: I would go with SR3, because I much more liked the floating TNs mechanics. Made hard tasks hard, and skills were rewarded correctly, IMO. Plus, if the priority system sucks balls, as implied Tymeaus Jalynsfein, it must be understood as a situation where you like to have your balls sucked and someone does this really good. Priority makes it really so simple to build a first character you like, corresponding to what you expected, and functional.

I have yet to get a character I am completely happy with in Priority. They get close, but they just don't work (they neither correspond to my expectations nor are they what I would call functional - the only thing Limits do is punish players, they are my number one peeve in 5th Edition). In 4th, that was never a problem. And before you assume that I am a guy who likes 20+ DP characters, you should look at my past posting history. I prefer my characters to be Professionals. In SR4, that was Skill 3. In SR5 that is Skill 6. No thanks.

Apparently we have different expectations and definitions of functional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[freudqo]

Nope don't worry, I understood we have different views on gaming and the priority system. I just allowed myself to react to your "Priority sucks balls" at the same level, because it made me laugh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

I always thought that priority made for very good guidelines on defining a character, making it obvious if you want to top up on money, attributes and skills.

All in all, shadow run is not a game where making a character is easy, whatever the version. The question is more on the game setting and mechanics. I like floating TN, and on a smaller scale, dice pools, for the reasons I gave. So I'd advise for it. But some might prefer fix TN for simplicity reason or whatever, which is perfectly legitimate.

[nezumi]

I've always enjoyed priority as a way to get a character fast. Maybe it's just me, but points ends up with me futzing around for far longer than I should. In practice though, I run a sum-to-ten hybrid. You can get points with edges and flaws that you spend like normal points, on top of the sum-to-ten method. After the first run, I get enough karma to sand off the rough edges, and it's perfect, with much less futzing time.

[Sengir]

inconsistent rules, and too many new, unfun hindrances to keep track of

I'd say 4th edition has those issues, too, but we got used to them or subconsciously deploy a "RAI filter" born out of close to a decade of experience. If you let someone with no previous exposure read the books, their reaction would be similar.

[Rad]

Y'know, SR4 has a priority system too. It's in Runner's Companion right next to the karmagen rules. Never tried it, so I couldn't say whether it was any good or not, but it's not really a valid reason to pick 5th ed over 4th since both editions have one.