I just learned I will have to GM a game on Friday nights, starting this week...
Still to be decided, which edition will we use? 3rd, 4rth(20th Anniversary) or 5th?
Which Version should we use? Which edition is better for new players?

Third and Fourth editions are the ones with the most complete, comprehensive, and errata'd rulesets. SR3 follows the first two editions, while SR4 drastically changes and revises the game mechanics. No edition of Shadowrun is really that friendly to new players - it is a fairly complex game. But SR3 and SR4 both have overviews of the history of the game world, at least.

SR3 is more classic cyberpunk, from the time before we had things like smartphones and people being able to record things on them anywhere. SR4, while it keeps the game's premise of romanticized criminals doing shady jobs for shady corporations, reflects the modern world a bit more (with everyone using commlinks rather than smartphones). Both rulesets have their strong and weak points, with SR4 being slightly less complex. But both sets of the rules have been out long enough to be revised and tweaked enough to be playable and consistent.

SR5 is the newest version, but I would not recommend it at this time. It has severe editing problems, inconsistent rules, and too many new, unfun hindrances to keep track of - what's my overwatch score? Will the background count short out my power focus? Will a hacker short out my cybereyes? Will I get less hits because this gun has a low accuracy rating? Will my spirit refuse to do something because it doesn't match the purpose (combat, detection, etc.) that my tradition says it is associated with? In SR3 and SR4, you can just play your hacker/decker, mage, or street samurai.

Personally I'd suggest SR4 out of the three. From the tales I've been told about SR3, trying to play a hacker or a rigger can be a nightmare in complexity. I can't say this from personal experience, but I will say that trying to figure out the hacker rules for SR3 compared to SR4 or SR5 is difficult.

And I'd double what Glyph says about SR5 and its plague of issues.

So I guess SR4 it's going to be then
Thanks guys

If you want SR20A's rules but with the older cyberpunk flavor, there's a solution for that too.

Shadowrun 2050.

For new players you can use 5th ed I guess. It has bad aspects, but so does 4th ed, and I don't think the problems of SR5 will confuse players more than those of SR4 would.

In my opinion, Shadowrun 2050 was the biggest pile of drek to come out in a long time....fifty some pages telling you that you can do cool stuff.... without anything to back it up... try running a decker with that book and we'll talk...

I'm a huge fan of 3rd edition. IMO it's the best for tactical gameplay, player agency, and the cyberpunk feel. However, it is the most complex (especially for riggers. For deckers the rules aren't especially difficult, just poorly explained.) So this really comes down to knowing your group. If your group are wargamers, or if they are comfortable with math, SR3 would be my first choice.

Out of SR4 vs. SR5, I've played both and prefer SR5 by a nose, but I've not had to run either, so I haven't had to deal with the editing issues. To me, they seem to be pretty similar mechanically. SR4 especially seems to be the "I just want mechanics to get out of the way so I can tell a story" system.

Is someone really recommending 4th edition with that atrocious point-buy, which makes things complex and slow as a turtle and full of pitfalls for beginners ?

No way. For that alone, 5th edition is better.

SR3 is best.
Trolls are still viable, there are rules for EVERYTHING.
Shamanic and Hermetic Magic are vastly different.
Each Tradition has it's own unique ruleset to set it apart.
No wireless anything if you don't want it.
No constant sin checking and cyberware scanning.
The setting is more lenient and allows for more Pink Mohawk.

It has the best character generator you can find. NSRCG3.

Indeed, I would heartily support SR4/SR4A and their Character generation System... Character generation is pretty darn easy in SR4/SR4A. The only impediment (and it plagues all versions) is Equipment buy. If you are assisting Beginners (and why would you not, because there are pitfalls in every edition in Chargen) the pitfalls are easy to avoid.


Priority Sucks balls, and the SR5 expanded Character creation options are not any better.

I'd go 5th, just because the Matrix resolves faster and direct magic isn't insanely broken but instead has a niche at attacking high defence targets.

Also, if you play with all the options of SR4, you'll run in to problems that players that know how to abuse the system can become very out of hand and totally destroy the setting. Like stacking gear/magic to get 25+ dice pools.

That shouldn't be a problem with new players.

I'd go with 4th ed, use the karma build for characters and use chummer to take care of the math. No matter which edition you chose, the biggest stumbling block is going to be buying gear and cyberware. I'd look through the gear as GM, figure out the must haves (or ask on here) and then figure out what that costs and make sure every player buys that basic kit. Generally this will be armour, commlink, tag eraser (yeah everyone should have one), Fake SIN and licenses, ammo and a weapon, ear and eye mods (earbuds and contact lenses or glasses or goggles with mods) and so forth. If you go with 5th ed, you can use the packs from Run Faster or if you go with 4th ed, you can use the PACKS system from Runner's Toolkit.

Shadowrun is a fun game world to play in but it has always suffered from gear bloat and for new players that can be a big turn off. Anyway, to pick a flavour and have fun.

5th edition for now for the ruleset, but its 3rd edition setting all the way. Most of the rules are streamlined with few enough exceptions as to be easy for new players. Plus my old players can still play an old fashioned Decker or Shaman if they want.

5th edition fiction & setting is hit and miss, not sure what it wants to be. Still trying to appeal to 4th edition & traditional fans at the same time. I don't think it will work out and they need to focus on a vision of the game world.

SR5 just basically swaps direct and indirect spells around, as far as which is the go-to and which is the niche. Spirits are even more broken, though. And SR5 does not curb min-maxing. Characters may be relatively less powerful compared to the best of the best (since skills cap out at 12 now), but you can still make all kinds of monstrosities with the basic book alone.

Agreed. In addition, the matrix and rigger rules in 4th Ed are mechanically a train-wreck. You can not like the way they are implemented in 5th, but you can read them 3 times in 5th and have some idea what you're supposed to do.

5th Ed all the way. 3rd Ed is ok, as long as you ban Trolls and if you have to play 4th pretty much ban anything that isn't a human, elf, ork or dwarf.......... the matrix....... cars and half the spells.

Why is that??

Meh !
If You want done something right, do it Yourself !!
In my newest Round we're using a Mix from SR4A & SR5 Rules ( we call it SR4.5A ) with Houserules Cherries on Top
and playing in 2055 .That means no Hassle with WiFi blarney and more Pink Mohawk for everybody

He who dances with a Pink Mohawk
Medicineman

Because in SR3 Trolls pretty much wear blue tights with a big Shadowrun 'S' on their chest with only a Soy/Sunlight/(random pick) Allergy as their kryptonite.

And we love them for it.

I quite understood they might have a hard time selling a used car or doing crosswords.

Oh, and to answer the initial post: I would go with SR3, because I much more liked the floating TNs mechanics. Made hard tasks hard, and skills were rewarded correctly, IMO. Plus, if the priority system sucks balls, as implied Tymeaus Jalynsfein, it must be understood as a situation where you like to have your balls sucked and someone does this really good. Priority makes it really so simple to build a first character you like, corresponding to what you expected, and functional.

I have yet to get a character I am completely happy with in Priority. They get close, but they just don't work (they neither correspond to my expectations nor are they what I would call functional - the only thing Limits do is punish players, they are my number one peeve in 5th Edition). In 4th, that was never a problem. And before you assume that I am a guy who likes 20+ DP characters, you should look at my past posting history. I prefer my characters to be Professionals. In SR4, that was Skill 3. In SR5 that is Skill 6. No thanks.

Apparently we have different expectations and definitions of functional.

Nope don't worry, I understood we have different views on gaming and the priority system. I just allowed myself to react to your "Priority sucks balls" at the same level, because it made me laugh .

I always thought that priority made for very good guidelines on defining a character, making it obvious if you want to top up on money, attributes and skills.

All in all, shadow run is not a game where making a character is easy, whatever the version. The question is more on the game setting and mechanics. I like floating TN, and on a smaller scale, dice pools, for the reasons I gave. So I'd advise for it. But some might prefer fix TN for simplicity reason or whatever, which is perfectly legitimate.

I've always enjoyed priority as a way to get a character fast. Maybe it's just me, but points ends up with me futzing around for far longer than I should. In practice though, I run a sum-to-ten hybrid. You can get points with edges and flaws that you spend like normal points, on top of the sum-to-ten method. After the first run, I get enough karma to sand off the rough edges, and it's perfect, with much less futzing time.

I'd say 4th edition has those issues, too, but we got used to them or subconsciously deploy a "RAI filter" born out of close to a decade of experience. If you let someone with no previous exposure read the books, their reaction would be similar.

Y'know, SR4 has a priority system too. It's in Runner's Companion right next to the karmagen rules. Never tried it, so I couldn't say whether it was any good or not, but it's not really a valid reason to pick 5th ed over 4th since both editions have one.

I don't get the priority is easier theory. As priority is build points just with 5 set variables for each category. I'm not sure spending my points counting them and realizing I spent 18 points in attributes is harder than spending them realizing I used 18 points do I could either shave or add 2 points and pick either b or c, or picking the priority first then spending the points and finding out how far off my wild ass newbie guess was from what I wanted.

Though it's pretty obvious… Either directly (Lot of money is first priority) or indirectly (Elves or Magic are high priority means less money), priority tells you how to build a character with some selected abilities. True, after a few characters you realize pretty quickly how to build them by points. But if we talk about a first game, that will appear more straightforward procedure than build points for new many players.

Of course, there are many reasons to prefer priority if you're not a beginner (or rather sum to ten), but that's another story.

I disagree with that. I don't know if I need A in resources until I buy my stuff. So the priority doesn't make it easier or quicker. I might know ill be skill heavy but taking a is no different than just spending a bunch in skills. I thinki its easier to describe what atribute and skill levels mean for your game have them make the character they want and see where they are with points and modify from there than the constant flipping of priorities. Changing 1 skill up or down is a lot easier than swapping a and b especially when resources are involved. The shifts in amounts in a-c are massive making any changes huge overhauls. Unless people are defining new player as person who is effectively making a character blind so they just slap out 24 points in attributes and never step back to think if that is what they want. But if you are talking that level just make pre gens.

While I think Priority is a step backwards from point or karma-based character creation, SR5's is designed to be their default character creation system, so it is a lot more robust and detailed than SR4's, which was very simplified and limited in my opinion (there was a thread with some good SR4 Priority builds, though). I found SR3 Priority to be the most workable, but build points were not really that much more complex. The primary advantage that Priority offers to new players is that it simplifies their choices. For more experienced players, point or karma-based character creation systems let them fine-tune their characters a lot more. Also, from a GMing standpoint, such systems are much more scalable when you want a higher or lower-power campaign - just give more or less build points/karma.

Well, I don't know the money amount offered by priority in SR5, but in SR3 they were so vastly different that it was immediately obvious what money you needed on it if you wanted a lot of augmentations, good quality equipment, or to be a rigger or a decker.

I don't get it either.
Maybe its a bit faster but not in the most time consuming aspects ( choosing Gear, Cyberware, Spells or Powers)
if a creating a Char takes about an Hour , and you need 1/2 an Hour for choosing Gear etc and 1/2 an Hour to build the Char itself you might save 5 , maybe 10 Minutes from the part of building the Char. But only if You don't mind building a char that is only aproximately what you want to play
Because if You find out, that your Char concept doesn't work out (because of the restrictions in Prio) and You have to totally recreate your Char than you wasted only Time !
I'd rather take a tad more time for building my Char but than I'm sure that my char is exactly how I want him to be

exactly
with a real Point Buy System or a Karma System you can make little changes ( one or two points less in Attributes for 10.000 ¥ and 3 Skillpoints more or some like that) but you don't need to re-work the Priorities.
The Sum to ten is a bit more flexible (and ImO preferable) to the Priority System.
For Me Prio sys is just the Point Buy system in 5 big Chunks that you have to swallow seperately. Once You ate one chunk , you can't change it back (without getting a new Cake/making a new Char) and if there is a Cherry on Top (Prio A Human and B Magic , with wasted Edge points) you can't put the Cherry on another Chunk you can only throw it away

And I don't feel like wasting (neither Cherries nor Points)
I can see the Benefits of a Prio System for absolutely Newbs that try out SR at a convention (specially in the US, when a Session like the Missions is only 4 hours long instead of here in Germany where a Run can take 6,8 or maybe even 10 Hours)
when its absolutely important to hurry up and create a Char in 1/2 an hour . Thats what the packs are good for too (to save up time) !
but in a regular game at home or even a Campaign that takes Months and Years to play its better for the Players to have a char they're happy with and not a char that took 5-10 Minutes less to build

Hough !
Medicineman

As was said, priorities just create a skeleton to help people set up their characters quickly, and limits you to comparing two items at a time.

Are you a mage? A troll? A street sam? A rigger? That's your Priority A.
Are you a mechanic or weapons specialist? An adept or aspected mage? Whatever the other race option at B is? That's your B. Otherwise it's Attributes.
Okay, what's more important, being a dwarf, cash, or skills? If none, it's attributes.
The last thing.
Now, spend.

I've had to change priorities before, but it's trivial. Okay, I really need resources as B, not C, but currently Skills is B. So I need to shave 10 skillpoints. Count to ten, swap, go.

If you already know how much everything is worth, point-buy is quite fast. For everyone else, you end up comparing your 5 in pistols to your 3 in Charisma to your maglock sequencer, and you have to say which is the worst out of the three. That causes a lot more frustration for new players, and then slowdowns. Even for experienced players like me, it's just not something I care to deal with. Priority's structure just makes it very fast and easy to explain.

Yes, wasted priorities is an issue that penalizes mundane humans (doesn't really impact anyone else). That's why I use sum-to-ten. It takes an extra thirty seconds to explain, but otherwise works just as well as priority.

I've probably run twenty new players through Shadowrun with sum-to-ten; it works fine. I don't know if those twenty could have picked up point-buy as quickly. All I know is priority/sum-to-ten is perfectly fine.

after a while you get accustomed to Prio sysem. I learned how to Minmax in Prio after a couple of Chars and now with Sum To ten it's Ok for me (and I guess lots of other Players) Sum to ten is OK but not Perfect (like the Rest of SR5)
and if you don't expect a finetuning like in GURPS you won't be toooooo disapointed
In fact I learned to even like it because you can optimise a Char much better than with Karmasystem
And to be honest I get the feeling that I need to optimize/Min/Max my chars in SR5 (much more than in SR4A)

with a rough Dance
Medicineman

Do you know what gives that feeling? The only gimmick I optomize more is a low stat. With karma I feel okay taking a 1 then bumping it with discretionary karma. In 4E under points you have to live with the 1 until you earn the karma so I don't do it. Otherwise I don't feel like I need to optimize more in 5e.

after some thinking/Soulsearching.....maybe, hmmm
I know SR4A very well, I'm accustomed to the Rules , they're streamlined, I'm familiar with most aspects(Even the Matrix)
but in SR5 there are so many inconsistencies and even though SR5 is quite close to 4A you have much more restrictions and Limits so many exceptions to the streamlining of the Rules f.E. Armor : each suit
or set of Armor has a different Wireles Bonus. Wireless Bonus by itself makes no sense (except to lure the Chars into using it so that they can be bricked by Deckers).some rules aren't explained, some Rules make no sense ( parts of in Debt or the Tax of Corp SINners just to name two examples)So I'm often confronted with rules that I don't get to understand, that make me feel a bit....confused.
A good example it the Throwing Knife. I never understood why it's got a wireless Bonus but some of my Chars use them because of said Bonus
Another Point is NPCs are much more powerfull (with a Skilllevel of up to 12 they can easily reach pools of 20+)
whereas playerchars start as low as in 4A.So I have the urge to optimize my char to have a fighting Chance.
Limits is the next example, If I don't optimise my Char Limitwise I'm sure to get disapointed sooner or later by rolling lots of successes only to realise that I can't use all of them (without using Edge)

These are some of the Points that I can think of right now.
I've played some official Runs though at differnet Conventions and they've been quite easy to solve but maybe because the GM's been lenient or a Newb (or both) or maybe because the other players MinMaxed even more than I did ( they confirmed/reassured me that they optimized only because they used the Prio system and they felt/knew too that Chars with only 800 Karma are inferior to Sum to ten Chars)
so the greater need to Min/Max in SR5 may be just my imagination but I feel there is some truth to it

HokaHey
Medicineman

If the intent was to have priority as "training wheels", it could simply be implemented as a pattern for spending points in a point-buy system. Attributes A means you can spend 275 points (just a ballpark number) in that area, knock yourselves out. That way players could just choose a generation system they like an all get comparable results, if a new player starts with priorities they can seamlessly switch over for their sencond character, and perhaps most importantly, priorities with certain value (instead of clearly superior options) would make priority generation itself better.

I don't think that would work very well. Caps create limitations, but don't offer guidance. And more specifically, even with a cap I'm still comparing my 5 in pistols to my 3 in charisma to my maglock sequencer, which is where things get complex.

Really, doing a priority/point-buy hybrid isn't very hard at all. Point-buy establishes what the exchange rate is (2attributes:1skill:$5,000, if memory serves). If you spent 29 skill points and have an extra hanging around, you just convert it and move on. That way you still have the structure provided by priority, as well as the granularity of point-buy. The only issue would be verifying the points/resources/whatever at each priority level are balanced against one another.

I can't speak for everybody, but for me, in SR5, it is three things. First, characters are less comparatively powerful measured against the rest of the world. A skill of 6 is about what a 3 in SR4 was. Look at the grunts, and even the lowest of them, the mouthbreathing thugs, have 6 dice to attack with and 6 dice for passive defense. Go further, to the contacts, and look at all of the 7's and 8's and 9's. Even the beat cop has a pistols skill of 6. The way initiative works, too, faster characters are not as dominant. If you make a street-level guy with middle of the road skills, you won't be that different from the average ganger or security guard.

Second, characters may be comparatively weaker, but on a flat power level, SR5 ramps everything up. You can start out with a 12 in Agility or Reaction or a skill, or 12 power points, just from the main book. Mr. Lucky (or close - Edge of 7) doesn't take significant sacrifices any longer, just a Priority of C. You can certainly make weaker or street level characters if you want to, but it is easy to make characters that are powerful in various ways.

Finally, all of those annoying hindrances (background count, losing bonuses by forgoing wireless) tend to be flat penalties. If you are going to lose 5 dice, it's better to lose 5 dice from a starting dice pool of 20, and have 15 dice left, than to lose 5 dice out of a dice pool of 12, and have 7 dice left.

SR3 priority is much faster than 4.5 BP, because there's fewer decision points to make. You can start with a general idea-- say, gunslinger adept-- and then estimate your needs from there. In this case, you want Attributes A, Magic B, Skills C, and Resources D. Now you have a general picture of what you should be working with, and so the rest is simpler.

In any BP system, but especially complex ones, you can easily get lost trying to balance out the various parts of the character. Option paralysis sets in, as people try and decide if they really should shave off points here to raise something there. This gets particularly bad if there are trap options, or hidden requirements. Players are more afraid they'll get it wrong, so they take longer to make sure there's no mistakes. System mastery makes it even worse, since it's easy to create characters of wildly divergent power levels under that system.

So, going in without a plan in BP is a good way to get lost. But the typical plan method doesn't solve anything here. Typically, in a BP system, people like to go in with a wish list of concepts. Problem is, you're still going to have to do a lot of fiddling, especially if you can't easily see ways of getting the character you had in mind.

I haven't experimented enough with SR5 priority to really know the system. It's certainly way slower than SR3, and the three adepts I've run in Missions games tend to dominate, which indicates that system mastery is still a factor. Still, I haven't sat down and compared dozens of characters yet, so I'm not convinced that it's not a fluke.

I don't think you understood the concept: The total of those caps/point allocations would be the total of points to spend in regular point buy, because the idea is to have the same power level. Spending less on a skill would not allow spending more on an attribute.

PS: I'd also like to point out the existence of not-really-Karma-but-called-Karma in 5th's priority system...

Oh, now I finally understood something I think… We're talking about all those rules about how you can't have several attributes at their racial maximum, racial maximum which is more expensive and being able to have that much skills at maximum and other at that level, or so much at max-1 and others at this or that level.

Might be relevant too mention there was nothing of this sort in SR3. At chargen, attributes maxed out at 6+-racial modifiers, and skills maxed out at 6, being twice more expensive when above attributes.

I am not quite sure that that is the issue here. I know it is not the issue with me. My preferences for SR4 over SR5 are due to rules implementations in SR5 that I think were unnecessary.

For example...

Limits.

I do not see a need for them. Now, to be fair, I never made any characters (in SR4) that needed to have a Limit cap in place to control them (I prefer my DP's in the 10-15dp range). I understand that it is intended as another advancement axis (though I think it is not needed and totally unnecessary), and that they may add flavor to the game for some people. My opinion of the Limit function is that it eliminates fun and punishes the player for the naturally occurring exceptional successes that crop up over the course of a session. Now, with Limits in Place, you cannot gain the joy of the exceptional roll (though you are still held accountable for the catastrophic failure of a roll) because it no longer is an exceptional roll, but is capped by Limit. So, when I get the 12 DP (Limit 5) roll that has 10 Successes, well, I am just SOL because I cannot apply the remaining 5 Hits. This is not fun. In my experience, the Limit is a Punishment for not min-maxing a character to the nth degree.

There are a myriad group of rules that fit this category for me. All unnecessary.

As for not having the ability to max out skills/stats at character creation... Not really a concern for me, since I tend to play middle road Professionals to start with anyways. Leaves more room for growth.

Seeing some of your posts here, I think very few things can be an issue with you anyway , considering your method of playing (which I think is perfectly legitime and good if you have fun with it, I should precise).

But, if we're on a topic where someone asks which game is better and why, especially for something that looks like it might be a first time GMing or first time chargen, I just felt it should be mentioned, amongst other thing about char gen. I'm not judging here. Just mentioning.

I'd gladly give my opinion that I just really don't see the point in making such limitations. If a character is willing to pay the high price needed to max out some attributes or skills at char gen, I don't see why you wouldn't let him do so. Of course this probably has to do ultimately with fix TN and Attrib+skill dice pool, but I already gave my opinion on it. So I think we have quite the same take on it actually.

You might be surprised.



Chargen is always pretty wonky... Best system for it is KarmaGen, but a lot of people do not like the inundation of choice that KarmaGen provides (and it can take longer). Point But works well as a 2nd choice, at least for me, followed a distant third by Priority (though I prefer Sum to Ten over A-E Priority).

As for Limitations on Maximums, I tend to agree... it is a HUGE opportunity Cost that is generally better spent elsewhere, but some players prefer to make that choice. And I have no issues with letting them. In my opinion, success is still success, whether you have a Margin of One or 15, so a lot of times, excess DP can be better converted to other skills/areas. Not everyone agrees with that, though.

I think, if we ignore the differences in speed or efficiency for new players, that it all ultimately rely on what you feel is better at defining a new character that fits shadowrun for you. As a SR3 player, I'll only talk about SR3, but I always liked much more priority there than build points or karma gen. There's no objective better system, since they don't correspond mathematically (some priority combination can give more or less than the allocated 123 BP), and the karma gen that could be found was the same. But I always preferred to build with priority because it was how I pictured shadowrunner. Actually, I always missed that they didn't officially implement sum to 10, and that they never implemented metavariants in the priority system (metavariant additional cost was also a bit stupid to my opinion, but that's another story)…

Concerning the limitations, I think we agree except on a little thing you said:



It's not better or worse spent elsewhere. It just makes for a different character, and the final say about whether it's really better is if the player has his fun .

My issue with Priority in SR3 stemmed from the types of Characters that I always saw coming out of Chargen. They were not real people, but caricatures (AT BEST).

Example: a player has 18 Skill points, but instead of crafting a character that makes sense with a number of skills portraying a concept, I tended to see 3 Skills at 6, all Shadowrunner, never ben anywhere but the Shadows Specific (regardless of the past) and so out of synch with the background that it was tear-inducing. Yes, that was what the player wanted, but the character was not a character. It was a collection of numbers that in no way looked like a person at all. And the character would die a glorious death several session sin, and then you got a new character sheet with the same crap on it. Horrible character design. Now, I know not everyone does that, so I try not to paint everyone with the same brush, but it was a trend that I saw more often than not.

A lot of my issues with such things is the way I was brought into the gaming hobby. Concept mattered, and you never put pen to paper until concept was nailed down. If Character Sheet did not match concept, then it was back to the drawing board, correcting either the concept or the finalization. Over the years, it became second nature. This leads to your 2nd statement below:



For me (at least) it is redundant to create a character that never fails, ever (why are you playing a game at that point, rather than writing a Novel about your character that never fails). Stacking DP's to the point that you are always guaranteed success is pretty ludicrous (in my book). Some people like it, I am among those who do not. Take the Theory Crafting Builds...

Pornomancer: Con ~52 DP
Ultimate Climber: Climb ~40 DP
Ultimate EMT: First Aid ~33 DP (Heal 10 Boxes Mundanely in a few Minutes)
etc.

The player spends so much investment into something that ultimately, does not need the DP provided. All would be better served by eliminating the top 40-50% of the DP and putting it elsewhere. The Pornomancer could lose 35 of the Dice and still perform his function in the group. Now granted, many of those types of Builds are theory-crafting at its finest, but I have seen actual characters submitted for the game that resemble the above. WHY? To me, those resources would better serve the character in other places, and still retain what the player is looking for.

Mmm… I don't know, I never had this issue that much. Sure, most people tended to have several skills and attributes at 6. I think I never saw a mage or shaman without sorcery and conjuring at 6 both. And this was fine. But at least in my game, if your other skills are just combat 6, natural selection will pretty much screw you into boredom or death… But maybe it's just that I roll charisma and intelligence link skills a lot more than some people need it. But honestly, if someone has fun playing a stupid ugly troll that can smash all with never being useful out of combat, I'm pretty happy if they have fun with it. I might not understand, but I'm happy.

I'm still not sure I'm understanding. You're saying that say, you can spend a maximum of 40 points in attributes, 60 in skills, etc.? Or is it more precise, like you must spend precisely 40 in attributes, precisely 60 in skills, etc.?




This is true, but I saw the same in Point-Buy. The only circumstances I did not see it was in Karmagen, and the issue there is complexity. Also, for larger groups (5+) this is pretty much required to guarantee PCs each get screen time.

SR2/3 introduced knowledge skills to help balance this out, although it looks like they disappeared again in SR4. Alternatively, you could introduce skill caps at chargen.

You can be more natural in Karma Gen, in my opinion, which is why I like it. You truly see the opportunity Costs involved when you are paying Karma to gain what you seek.

Knowledge Skills exist in SR4/SR5.
And both have skill caps at Chargen.

Karma Gen essentially does what you say by CHANGING the opportunity Costs, not making you see it. It indeed probably is an incentive to make more 'well rounded' character. But in the end, for me, it makes character with very high skills even more caricatural… Which is why I much prefer priority.