Which is better and why? Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

I don't get the priority is easier theory. As priority is build points just with 5 set variables for each category. I'm not sure spending my points counting them and realizing I spent 18 points in attributes is harder than spending them realizing I used 18 points do I could either shave or add 2 points and pick either b or c, or picking the priority first then spending the points and finding out how far off my wild ass newbie guess was from what I wanted.

[freudqo]

Though it's pretty obvious… Either directly (Lot of money is first priority) or indirectly (Elves or Magic are high priority means less money), priority tells you how to build a character with some selected abilities. True, after a few characters you realize pretty quickly how to build them by points. But if we talk about a first game, that will appear more straightforward procedure than build points for new many players.

Of course, there are many reasons to prefer priority if you're not a beginner (or rather sum to ten), but that's another story.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I disagree with that. I don't know if I need A in resources until I buy my stuff. So the priority doesn't make it easier or quicker. I might know ill be skill heavy but taking a is no different than just spending a bunch in skills. I thinki its easier to describe what atribute and skill levels mean for your game have them make the character they want and see where they are with points and modify from there than the constant flipping of priorities. Changing 1 skill up or down is a lot easier than swapping a and b especially when resources are involved. The shifts in amounts in a-c are massive making any changes huge overhauls. Unless people are defining new player as person who is effectively making a character blind so they just slap out 24 points in attributes and never step back to think if that is what they want. But if you are talking that level just make pre gens.

[Glyph]

Y'know, SR4 has a priority system too. It's in Runner's Companion right next to the karmagen rules. Never tried it, so I couldn't say whether it was any good or not, but it's not really a valid reason to pick 5th ed over 4th since both editions have one.

While I think Priority is a step backwards from point or karma-based character creation, SR5's is designed to be their default character creation system, so it is a lot more robust and detailed than SR4's, which was very simplified and limited in my opinion (there was a thread with some good SR4 Priority builds, though). I found SR3 Priority to be the most workable, but build points were not really that much more complex. The primary advantage that Priority offers to new players is that it simplifies their choices. For more experienced players, point or karma-based character creation systems let them fine-tune their characters a lot more. Also, from a GMing standpoint, such systems are much more scalable when you want a higher or lower-power campaign - just give more or less build points/karma.

[freudqo]

I disagree with that. I don't know if I need A in resources until I buy my stuff. So the priority doesn't make it easier or quicker. I might know ill be skill heavy but taking a is no different than just spending a bunch in skills. I thinki its easier to describe what atribute and skill levels mean for your game have them make the character they want and see where they are with points and modify from there than the constant flipping of priorities. Changing 1 skill up or down is a lot easier than swapping a and b especially when resources are involved. The shifts in amounts in a-c are massive making any changes huge overhauls. Unless people are defining new player as person who is effectively making a character blind so they just slap out 24 points in attributes and never step back to think if that is what they want. But if you are talking that level just make pre gens.

Well, I don't know the money amount offered by priority in SR5, but in SR3 they were so vastly different that it was immediately obvious what money you needed on it if you wanted a lot of augmentations, good quality equipment, or to be a rigger or a decker.

[Medicineman]

I don't get the priority is easier theory.

I don't get it either.
Maybe its a bit faster but not in the most time consuming aspects ( choosing Gear, Cyberware, Spells or Powers)
if a creating a Char takes about an Hour , and you need 1/2 an Hour for choosing Gear etc and 1/2 an Hour to build the Char itself you might save 5 , maybe 10 Minutes from the part of building the Char. But only if You don't mind building a char that is only aproximately what you want to play
Because if You find out, that your Char concept doesn't work out (because of the restrictions in Prio) and You have to totally recreate your Char than you wasted only Time !
I'd rather take a tad more time for building my Char but than I'm sure that my char is exactly how I want him to be

Changing 1 skill up or down is a lot easier than swapping a and b especially when resources are involved.

exactly
with a real Point Buy System or a Karma System you can make little changes ( one or two points less in Attributes for 10.000 ¥ and 3 Skillpoints more or some like that) but you don't need to re-work the Priorities.
The Sum to ten is a bit more flexible (and ImO preferable) to the Priority System.
For Me Prio sys is just the Point Buy system in 5 big Chunks that you have to swallow seperately. Once You ate one chunk , you can't change it back (without getting a new Cake/making a new Char) and if there is a Cherry on Top (Prio A Human and B Magic , with wasted Edge points) you can't put the Cherry on another Chunk you can only throw it away

And I don't feel like wasting (neither Cherries nor Points)
I can see the Benefits of a Prio System for absolutely Newbs that try out SR at a convention (specially in the US, when a Session like the Missions is only 4 hours long instead of here in Germany where a Run can take 6,8 or maybe even 10 Hours)
when its absolutely important to hurry up and create a Char in 1/2 an hour . Thats what the packs are good for too (to save up time) !
but in a regular game at home or even a Campaign that takes Months and Years to play its better for the Players to have a char they're happy with and not a char that took 5-10 Minutes less to build

Hough !
Medicineman

[nezumi]

As was said, priorities just create a skeleton to help people set up their characters quickly, and limits you to comparing two items at a time.

Are you a mage? A troll? A street sam? A rigger? That's your Priority A.
Are you a mechanic or weapons specialist? An adept or aspected mage? Whatever the other race option at B is? That's your B. Otherwise it's Attributes.
Okay, what's more important, being a dwarf, cash, or skills? If none, it's attributes.
The last thing.
Now, spend.

I've had to change priorities before, but it's trivial. Okay, I really need resources as B, not C, but currently Skills is B. So I need to shave 10 skillpoints. Count to ten, swap, go.

If you already know how much everything is worth, point-buy is quite fast. For everyone else, you end up comparing your 5 in pistols to your 3 in Charisma to your maglock sequencer, and you have to say which is the worst out of the three. That causes a lot more frustration for new players, and then slowdowns. Even for experienced players like me, it's just not something I care to deal with. Priority's structure just makes it very fast and easy to explain.

Yes, wasted priorities is an issue that penalizes mundane humans (doesn't really impact anyone else). That's why I use sum-to-ten. It takes an extra thirty seconds to explain, but otherwise works just as well as priority.

I've probably run twenty new players through Shadowrun with sum-to-ten; it works fine. I don't know if those twenty could have picked up point-buy as quickly. All I know is priority/sum-to-ten is perfectly fine.

[Medicineman]

after a while you get accustomed to Prio sysem. I learned how to Minmax in Prio after a couple of Chars and now with Sum To ten it's Ok for me (and I guess lots of other Players) Sum to ten is OK but not Perfect (like the Rest of SR5)
and if you don't expect a finetuning like in GURPS you won't be toooooo disapointed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
In fact I learned to even like it because you can optimise a Char much better than with Karmasystem
And to be honest I get the feeling that I need to optimize/Min/Max my chars in SR5 (much more than in SR4A)

with a rough Dance
Medicineman

[Shinobi Killfist]

Do you know what gives that feeling? The only gimmick I optomize more is a low stat. With karma I feel okay taking a 1 then bumping it with discretionary karma. In 4E under points you have to live with the 1 until you earn the karma so I don't do it. Otherwise I don't feel like I need to optimize more in 5e.

[Medicineman]

Do you know what gives that feeling?

after some thinking/Soulsearching.....maybe, hmmm
I know SR4A very well, I'm accustomed to the Rules , they're streamlined, I'm familiar with most aspects(Even the Matrix)
but in SR5 there are so many inconsistencies and even though SR5 is quite close to 4A you have much more restrictions and Limits so many exceptions to the streamlining of the Rules f.E. Armor : each suit
or set of Armor has a different Wireles Bonus. Wireless Bonus by itself makes no sense (except to lure the Chars into using it so that they can be bricked by Deckers).some rules aren't explained, some Rules make no sense ( parts of in Debt or the Tax of Corp SINners just to name two examples)So I'm often confronted with rules that I don't get to understand, that make me feel a bit....confused.
A good example it the Throwing Knife. I never understood why it's got a wireless Bonus but some of my Chars use them because of said Bonus
Another Point is NPCs are much more powerfull (with a Skilllevel of up to 12 they can easily reach pools of 20+)
whereas playerchars start as low as in 4A.So I have the urge to optimize my char to have a fighting Chance.
Limits is the next example, If I don't optimise my Char Limitwise I'm sure to get disapointed sooner or later by rolling lots of successes only to realise that I can't use all of them (without using Edge)

These are some of the Points that I can think of right now.
I've played some official Runs though at differnet Conventions and they've been quite easy to solve but maybe because the GM's been lenient or a Newb (or both) or maybe because the other players MinMaxed even more than I did ( they confirmed/reassured me that they optimized only because they used the Prio system and they felt/knew too that Chars with only 800 Karma are inferior to Sum to ten Chars)
so the greater need to Min/Max in SR5 may be just my imagination but I feel there is some truth to it

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Sengir]

As was said, priorities just create a skeleton to help people set up their characters quickly, and limits you to comparing two items at a time.

If the intent was to have priority as "training wheels", it could simply be implemented as a pattern for spending points in a point-buy system. Attributes A means you can spend 275 points (just a ballpark number) in that area, knock yourselves out. That way players could just choose a generation system they like an all get comparable results, if a new player starts with priorities they can seamlessly switch over for their sencond character, and perhaps most importantly, priorities with certain value (instead of clearly superior options) would make priority generation itself better.

[nezumi]

If the intent was to have priority as "training wheels", it could simply be implemented as a pattern for spending points in a point-buy system. Attributes A means you can spend 275 points (just a ballpark number) in that area, knock yourselves out. That way players could just choose a generation system they like an all get comparable results, if a new player starts with priorities they can seamlessly switch over for their sencond character, and perhaps most importantly, priorities with certain value (instead of clearly superior options) would make priority generation itself better.

I don't think that would work very well. Caps create limitations, but don't offer guidance. And more specifically, even with a cap I'm still comparing my 5 in pistols to my 3 in charisma to my maglock sequencer, which is where things get complex.

Really, doing a priority/point-buy hybrid isn't very hard at all. Point-buy establishes what the exchange rate is (2attributes:1skill:$5,000, if memory serves). If you spent 29 skill points and have an extra hanging around, you just convert it and move on. That way you still have the structure provided by priority, as well as the granularity of point-buy. The only issue would be verifying the points/resources/whatever at each priority level are balanced against one another.

[Glyph]

Do you know what gives that feeling? The only gimmick I optomize more is a low stat. With karma I feel okay taking a 1 then bumping it with discretionary karma. In 4E under points you have to live with the 1 until you earn the karma so I don't do it. Otherwise I don't feel like I need to optimize more in 5e.

I can't speak for everybody, but for me, in SR5, it is three things. First, characters are less comparatively powerful measured against the rest of the world. A skill of 6 is about what a 3 in SR4 was. Look at the grunts, and even the lowest of them, the mouthbreathing thugs, have 6 dice to attack with and 6 dice for passive defense. Go further, to the contacts, and look at all of the 7's and 8's and 9's. Even the beat cop has a pistols skill of 6. The way initiative works, too, faster characters are not as dominant. If you make a street-level guy with middle of the road skills, you won't be that different from the average ganger or security guard.

Second, characters may be comparatively weaker, but on a flat power level, SR5 ramps everything up. You can start out with a 12 in Agility or Reaction or a skill, or 12 power points, just from the main book. Mr. Lucky (or close - Edge of 7) doesn't take significant sacrifices any longer, just a Priority of C. You can certainly make weaker or street level characters if you want to, but it is easy to make characters that are powerful in various ways.

Finally, all of those annoying hindrances (background count, losing bonuses by forgoing wireless) tend to be flat penalties. If you are going to lose 5 dice, it's better to lose 5 dice from a starting dice pool of 20, and have 15 dice left, than to lose 5 dice out of a dice pool of 12, and have 7 dice left.

[Cain]

SR3 priority is much faster than 4.5 BP, because there's fewer decision points to make. You can start with a general idea-- say, gunslinger adept-- and then estimate your needs from there. In this case, you want Attributes A, Magic B, Skills C, and Resources D. Now you have a general picture of what you should be working with, and so the rest is simpler.

In any BP system, but especially complex ones, you can easily get lost trying to balance out the various parts of the character. Option paralysis sets in, as people try and decide if they really should shave off points here to raise something there. This gets particularly bad if there are trap options, or hidden requirements. Players are more afraid they'll get it wrong, so they take longer to make sure there's no mistakes. System mastery makes it even worse, since it's easy to create characters of wildly divergent power levels under that system.

So, going in without a plan in BP is a good way to get lost. But the typical plan method doesn't solve anything here. Typically, in a BP system, people like to go in with a wish list of concepts. Problem is, you're still going to have to do a lot of fiddling, especially if you can't easily see ways of getting the character you had in mind.

I haven't experimented enough with SR5 priority to really know the system. It's certainly way slower than SR3, and the three adepts I've run in Missions games tend to dominate, which indicates that system mastery is still a factor. Still, I haven't sat down and compared dozens of characters yet, so I'm not convinced that it's not a fluke.

[Sengir]

And more specifically, even with a cap I'm still comparing my 5 in pistols to my 3 in charisma to my maglock sequencer, which is where things get complex.

I don't think you understood the concept: The total of those caps/point allocations would be the total of points to spend in regular point buy, because the idea is to have the same power level. Spending less on a skill would not allow spending more on an attribute.

PS: I'd also like to point out the existence of not-really-Karma-but-called-Karma in 5th's priority system...

[freudqo]

Oh, now I finally understood something I think… We're talking about all those rules about how you can't have several attributes at their racial maximum, racial maximum which is more expensive and being able to have that much skills at maximum and other at that level, or so much at max-1 and others at this or that level.

Might be relevant too mention there was nothing of this sort in SR3. At chargen, attributes maxed out at 6+-racial modifiers, and skills maxed out at 6, being twice more expensive when above attributes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh, now I finally understood something I think… We're talking about all those rules about how you can't have several attributes at their racial maximum, racial maximum which is more expensive and being able to have that much skills at maximum and other at that level, or so much at max-1 and others at this or that level.

Might be relevant too mention there was nothing of this sort in SR3. At chargen, attributes maxed out at 6+-racial modifiers, and skills maxed out at 6, being twice more expensive when above attributes.

I am not quite sure that that is the issue here. I know it is not the issue with me. My preferences for SR4 over SR5 are due to rules implementations in SR5 that I think were unnecessary.

For example...

Limits.

I do not see a need for them. Now, to be fair, I never made any characters (in SR4) that needed to have a Limit cap in place to control them (I prefer my DP's in the 10-15dp range). I understand that it is intended as another advancement axis (though I think it is not needed and totally unnecessary), and that they may add flavor to the game for some people. My opinion of the Limit function is that it eliminates fun and punishes the player for the naturally occurring exceptional successes that crop up over the course of a session. Now, with Limits in Place, you cannot gain the joy of the exceptional roll (though you are still held accountable for the catastrophic failure of a roll) because it no longer is an exceptional roll, but is capped by Limit. So, when I get the 12 DP (Limit 5) roll that has 10 Successes, well, I am just SOL because I cannot apply the remaining 5 Hits. This is not fun. In my experience, the Limit is a Punishment for not min-maxing a character to the nth degree.

There are a myriad group of rules that fit this category for me. All unnecessary.

As for not having the ability to max out skills/stats at character creation... Not really a concern for me, since I tend to play middle road Professionals to start with anyways. Leaves more room for growth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[freudqo]

I am not quite sure that that is the issue here. I know it is not the issue with me. My preferences for SR4 over SR5 are due to rules implementations in SR5 that I think were unnecessary.

Seeing some of your posts here, I think very few things can be an issue with you anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , considering your method of playing (which I think is perfectly legitime and good if you have fun with it, I should precise).

But, if we're on a topic where someone asks which game is better and why, especially for something that looks like it might be a first time GMing or first time chargen, I just felt it should be mentioned, amongst other thing about char gen. I'm not judging here. Just mentioning.

I'd gladly give my opinion that I just really don't see the point in making such limitations. If a character is willing to pay the high price needed to max out some attributes or skills at char gen, I don't see why you wouldn't let him do so. Of course this probably has to do ultimately with fix TN and Attrib+skill dice pool, but I already gave my opinion on it. So I think we have quite the same take on it actually.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Seeing some of your posts here, I think very few things can be an issue with you anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , considering your method of playing (which I think is perfectly legitime and good if you have fun with it, I should precise).

You might be surprised. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But, if we're on a topic where someone asks which game is better and why, especially for something that looks like it might be a first time GMing or first time chargen, I just felt it should be mentioned, amongst other thing about char gen. I'm not judging here. Just mentioning.

I'd gladly give my opinion that I just really don't see the point in making such limitations. If a character is willing to pay the high price needed to max out some attributes or skills at char gen, I don't see why you wouldn't let him do so. Of course this probably has to do ultimately with fix TN and Attrib+skill dice pool, but I already gave my opinion on it. So I think we have quite the same take on it actually.

Chargen is always pretty wonky... Best system for it is KarmaGen, but a lot of people do not like the inundation of choice that KarmaGen provides (and it can take longer). Point But works well as a 2nd choice, at least for me, followed a distant third by Priority (though I prefer Sum to Ten over A-E Priority).

As for Limitations on Maximums, I tend to agree... it is a HUGE opportunity Cost that is generally better spent elsewhere, but some players prefer to make that choice. And I have no issues with letting them. In my opinion, success is still success, whether you have a Margin of One or 15, so a lot of times, excess DP can be better converted to other skills/areas. Not everyone agrees with that, though.

[freudqo]

I think, if we ignore the differences in speed or efficiency for new players, that it all ultimately rely on what you feel is better at defining a new character that fits shadowrun for you. As a SR3 player, I'll only talk about SR3, but I always liked much more priority there than build points or karma gen. There's no objective better system, since they don't correspond mathematically (some priority combination can give more or less than the allocated 123 BP), and the karma gen that could be found was the same. But I always preferred to build with priority because it was how I pictured shadowrunner. Actually, I always missed that they didn't officially implement sum to 10, and that they never implemented metavariants in the priority system (metavariant additional cost was also a bit stupid to my opinion, but that's another story)…

Concerning the limitations, I think we agree except on a little thing you said:

it is a HUGE opportunity Cost that is generally better spent elsewhere,

It's not better or worse spent elsewhere. It just makes for a different character, and the final say about whether it's really better is if the player has his fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think, if we ignore the differences in speed or efficiency for new players, that it all ultimately rely on what you feel is better at defining a new character that fits shadowrun for you. As a SR3 player, I'll only talk about SR3, but I always liked much more priority there than build points or karma gen. There's no objective better system, since they don't correspond mathematically (some priority combination can give more or less than the allocated 123 BP), and the karma gen that could be found was the same. But I always preferred to build with priority because it was how I pictured shadowrunner. Actually, I always missed that they didn't officially implement sum to 10, and that they never implemented metavariants in the priority system (metavariant additional cost was also a bit stupid to my opinion, but that's another story)…

My issue with Priority in SR3 stemmed from the types of Characters that I always saw coming out of Chargen. They were not real people, but caricatures (AT BEST).

Example: a player has 18 Skill points, but instead of crafting a character that makes sense with a number of skills portraying a concept, I tended to see 3 Skills at 6, all Shadowrunner, never ben anywhere but the Shadows Specific (regardless of the past) and so out of synch with the background that it was tear-inducing. Yes, that was what the player wanted, but the character was not a character. It was a collection of numbers that in no way looked like a person at all. And the character would die a glorious death several session sin, and then you got a new character sheet with the same crap on it. Horrible character design. Now, I know not everyone does that, so I try not to paint everyone with the same brush, but it was a trend that I saw more often than not.

A lot of my issues with such things is the way I was brought into the gaming hobby. Concept mattered, and you never put pen to paper until concept was nailed down. If Character Sheet did not match concept, then it was back to the drawing board, correcting either the concept or the finalization. Over the years, it became second nature. This leads to your 2nd statement below:

It's not better or worse spent elsewhere. It just makes for a different character, and the final say about whether it's really better is if the player has his fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

For me (at least) it is redundant to create a character that never fails, ever (why are you playing a game at that point, rather than writing a Novel about your character that never fails). Stacking DP's to the point that you are always guaranteed success is pretty ludicrous (in my book). Some people like it, I am among those who do not. Take the Theory Crafting Builds...

Pornomancer: Con ~52 DP
Ultimate Climber: Climb ~40 DP
Ultimate EMT: First Aid ~33 DP (Heal 10 Boxes Mundanely in a few Minutes)
etc.

The player spends so much investment into something that ultimately, does not need the DP provided. All would be better served by eliminating the top 40-50% of the DP and putting it elsewhere. The Pornomancer could lose 35 of the Dice and still perform his function in the group. Now granted, many of those types of Builds are theory-crafting at its finest, but I have seen actual characters submitted for the game that resemble the above. WHY? To me, those resources would better serve the character in other places, and still retain what the player is looking for.

[freudqo]

Mmm… I don't know, I never had this issue that much. Sure, most people tended to have several skills and attributes at 6. I think I never saw a mage or shaman without sorcery and conjuring at 6 both. And this was fine. But at least in my game, if your other skills are just combat 6, natural selection will pretty much screw you into boredom or death… But maybe it's just that I roll charisma and intelligence link skills a lot more than some people need it. But honestly, if someone has fun playing a stupid ugly troll that can smash all with never being useful out of combat, I'm pretty happy if they have fun with it. I might not understand, but I'm happy.

[nezumi]

I don't think you understood the concept: The total of those caps/point allocations would be the total of points to spend in regular point buy, because the idea is to have the same power level. Spending less on a skill would not allow spending more on an attribute.

I'm still not sure I'm understanding. You're saying that say, you can spend a maximum of 40 points in attributes, 60 in skills, etc.? Or is it more precise, like you must spend precisely 40 in attributes, precisely 60 in skills, etc.?

My issue with Priority in SR3 stemmed from the types of Characters that I always saw coming out of Chargen. They were not real people, but caricatures (AT BEST).

Example: a player has 18 Skill points, but instead of crafting a character that makes sense with a number of skills portraying a concept, I tended to see 3 Skills at 6,

This is true, but I saw the same in Point-Buy. The only circumstances I did not see it was in Karmagen, and the issue there is complexity. Also, for larger groups (5+) this is pretty much required to guarantee PCs each get screen time.

SR2/3 introduced knowledge skills to help balance this out, although it looks like they disappeared again in SR4. Alternatively, you could introduce skill caps at chargen.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is true, but I saw the same in Point-Buy. The only circumstances I did not see it was in Karmagen, and the issue there is complexity. Also, for larger groups (5+) this is pretty much required to guarantee PCs each get screen time.

SR2/3 introduced knowledge skills to help balance this out, although it looks like they disappeared again in SR4. Alternatively, you could introduce skill caps at chargen.

You can be more natural in Karma Gen, in my opinion, which is why I like it. You truly see the opportunity Costs involved when you are paying Karma to gain what you seek.

Knowledge Skills exist in SR4/SR5.
And both have skill caps at Chargen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[freudqo]

Karma Gen essentially does what you say by CHANGING the opportunity Costs, not making you see it. It indeed probably is an incentive to make more 'well rounded' character. But in the end, for me, it makes character with very high skills even more caricatural… Which is why I much prefer priority.