Foci size Options

[Cochise]

Cochise,

To me,

1. It's occupying a cavity inside the meat body. It's not passing through.

2. It should be able to be targeted if the magician can get line of sight somehow. Maybe there's a reason why it's remained undetected.

3. No Essence loss unless it's written in a book.

4. No idea. It sounds related to 2.

Looks to me like the GM wants it to go away.

While your personal solutions certainly might work for you, there's a whole lot of things that one could argue about and it would ultimately lead nowhere. For example:

1. The problem isn't about the meat body or a cavity therein. It's all about the astral body of an astrally perceiving mage who has an active implanted focus. There's simply no rule precedence that would create a cavity within the astral body and thus you'd face the astral body of a focus within the astral body of the mage. And that astral body of the focus can come into "existence" (upon activation) after the mage's astral body has established itself (upon activation of astral perception. And while there is well enough precedence for an aura within an aura the same simply cannot be said about an astral body within another.
2. Then you create an explicit disparity between non-magical implants (with and without essence cost) vs. magical implants in terms of valid target acquisition.
3. Based on what consideration? There certainly are implants that cause no Essence loss but all of them provide no discernible game benefits for the character in question. Implants with Essence cost do come with game benefits (making the Essence cost a balancing factor). Now how does the implanted focus compare? It's certainly a game benefit ... particularly if the implant process provides a degree of protection against magical attacks against the focus under certain conditions (see point No. 4 and in part No. 2). So from a balance standpoint your "not unless written in a book" doesn't work too well and since it's not written in any book that a metahuman indeed cannot fly, I could still argue that they indeed can fly "unless written in a book"
4. The question there is: How much of an interference should the engulfing aura / astral body be? The examples and rules for modifiers due to (packed) biomass simply don't work too well there

So don't get me wrong there: I'm not saying that you're incorrect with how you'd deal with the presented problems but - at least to me - the whole thing is way too problematic on various levels of meta-physics and game balance to warrant the hustle of making it available to player characters ... unless the GM is willing of dealing with all ramifications and the players accepting that this might ultimately cause changes to how things work within their game universe. And if I was the GM they'd also have to accept that "what goes around comes around" => NPCs would make use of it too on a more regular basis instead of encounters where something like that is a plot device.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Implanted foci should be the realm of double digit initiates. Full stop.

Why? What makes you say that? I am curious. Since you can have foci that are tattoos (Love that by the way), and even Weapon Foci Cyberspurs (did that in 2nd Edition way back, and is still arguably doable in 3rd, 4th and 5th), what is the difference? I really don't see any myself.

[Wothanoz]

Why? What makes you say that? I am curious. Since you can have foci that are tattoos (Love that by the way), and even Weapon Foci Cyberspurs (did that in 2nd Edition way back, and is still arguably doable in 3rd, 4th and 5th), what is the difference? I really don't see any myself.

Tattoo foci don't bother me: it's obvious that said foci is present, and it makes a good amount of sense. On the other hand, what Ehran did with Frosty's femur isn't just tattoo foci. It's something else, a pretty sophisticated magical device that wasn't readily apparent to anyone alive in the 6th world. Harley found out about it through a bit of sluething, of the sort of sluething an elf who has been nurturing a grudge since the 16th century can do.

That sort of device? Yeah, you can't build that without some real hefty initiation into secrets that existed thousands of years ago. And where ya gonna get that, huh?

Enchanting some cyber spurs? Meh, that's childs play. Well, not really, it should require a really good magician to pull off, given the complexity of the item, but it makes sense.

What Ehran did on the other hand was a completely different deal. It wasn't just a simple sustaining focus, though that would be something hard(though not impossible), but a focus that sustained multiple detection spells(the idea that one poster had, that it could detect ehran's thoughts isn't preposterous), as well as being perfectly attuned to Frosty's aura that it was indistinguishable. No one knew it was there, other than Ehran and Harley. That's some serious mojo, ya dig? Not something you can pull off with your buddies who practice proto-germanic paganism. Lodges are cool, but Ehran and Harley are from a completely different lodge, a lodge comparable to Dunkie and the west of the WizWorms. It's not exactly stuff you can pull off.

[freudqo]

As much as I understand the OP's GM not wanting an implanted focus, for most reasons seen here, his take on power focus being big is really a house rule that's contradicting part of the fluff and the universe, and has very poor justification with SR's magic.

That said, I see no valid reason to refuse an implanted focus. I think Cochise nailed down the real lack of rules here. It shouldn't, IMHO, cost essence, since anything like a pacemaker, few nails or metal femur head you get after an accident never did, and it's been said repeatedly that foci could take almost any form. The real problem is tackled with astral form collision. That needs a call and discussion within the gaming group.

Mine would be that the focus astral form always protrude from it's owner astral form or aura when activated, let's say at the closest place from its implantation (femur head would appear at the ankle, teeth would look like a tusk, etc.). An aura reading test on the focus owner would probably apply to the focus too when not active (I'm not sure, this could make implanted focus quite useless somehow).

With this call, the only point of such a focus is if you are in a situation where the enemy wants to deprive you of your magical powers without outright killing you. In this case, the only point of such a focus is that mundane won't see it. So okay, you get away with it if mundanes strip you naked and take of all your jewelry. Now let's think of the fate of the guy whose power focus was active and witnessed by a mage when he was caught. Will NPC choose tedious surgery to carefully remove the net on this tibia?

[sk8bcn]

However, I never fully got this, since it is always astrally active and Frosty should have noticed something astrally glowing in her own leg, though it may have been further masked by Ehran so she didn't notice it.

Also the thing can act as a material link back to the maker.

If I recall, wasn't it that astral trail is how Harley found Frosty in the first place, so yeah not so great parental planning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

She's not mage at this point of the plotline. She's just a corporate secretaire.

Ehran did desactivated it so that Harlequin couldn't follow that link (though there's a logic flaw in that).

And the story says that Ehran is wrong because Harlequin already did find Janet before (probably through the genetical-file stored in Sylvan's system from the first scenario of Harlequin -but this is personnal interpretation-).

Anyways, interesting thread overall.

[Garvel]

1. The problem isn't about the meat body or a cavity therein. It's all about the astral body of an astrally perceiving mage who has an active implanted focus. There's simply no rule precedence that would create a cavity within the astral body and thus you'd face the astral body of a focus within the astral body of the mage. And that astral body of the focus can come into "existence" (upon activation) after the mage's astral body has established itself (upon activation of astral perception. And while there is well enough precedence for an aura within an aura the same simply cannot be said about an astral body within another.
2. Then you create an explicit disparity between non-magical implants (with and without essence cost) vs. magical implants in terms of valid target acquisition.

Tongue-piercings as foci are perfectly fine within the rules. If an activated focus in the astrally active body of its owner would cause problems, these would cause the same problems too. But piercings don't cause problems, because if they did, it would be mentioned in the rule-part that explicitly allows them as foci.
From this we can deduce that "the astral body of a focus within the astral body of the mage" is possible without problems.

[Cochise]

Tongue-piercings as foci are perfectly fine within the rules.

I'd object to that claim for two reasons:

• Different Editions treated that "differently" in terms of actually making explicit reference to such piercing-based foci.
• Regardless of which Edition actually made the particular reference the whole thing is still not described to a satisfactory degree as part of the overall meta-physics of SR-magic. I dare saying that whoever made the reference actually never thought about the ramifications beyond "cool idea".

If an activated focus in the astrally active body of its owner would cause problems, these would cause the same problems too. But piercings don't cause problems, because if they did, it would be mentioned in the rule-part that explicitly allows them as foci.

That kind of inference is actually not permittable from a logic standpoint.

From this we can deduce that "the astral body of a focus within the astral body of the mage" is possible without problems.

Subsequently your deduction is in fact a conclusion drawn from a false assertion which is logically "true" but not necessarily "right".

[Garvel]

I'd object to that claim for two reasons:

• Different Editions treated that "differently" in terms of actually making explicit reference to such piercing-based foci.
• Regardless of which Edition actually made the particular reference the whole thing is still not described to a satisfactory degree as part of the overall meta-physics of SR-magic. I dare saying that whoever made the reference actually never thought about the ramifications beyond "cool idea".

The problem here is that you try to use experiences you have from the real physical world ("One solid object can't be at the same place another solid object already is"), and then try to apply it to the astral plane of a fictional universe. But its a magic realm, it uses completely different laws of nature, and all we know about how it works, is what is stated in the rules.
We can try to deduce from the (sparse) descriptions we are given on how the astral plane works, but if our deductions contradict other points that the rules clearly state, then the rules win and not our derivations.

Here a quote from SR5 Basic book page 319 (since SR5 seems to be the most referenced in this thread)

A qi focus can be an object, like other foci, but it can also be worked into a body modification, like tattoos, ritual scarring,
and piercings.

No further descriptions how having the focus active hinders you while on astral perception. Here would have been the place to mentin problems that arise from using the piercing option. So at least in SR5 the problems you were worried about do not exist. One astral object inside another? Astral plane does not care.

The fact that the author may not have thought it through, isn't a big problem, since its fictional magic.
A 300 Nuyen grenade that contains hundred thousands Nuyens worth of monowire, thats a problem because we know the laws of market economy.
But we dont know the laws of a fictional astral plane.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

With this call, the only point of such a focus is if you are in a situation where the enemy wants to deprive you of your magical powers without outright killing you. In this case, the only point of such a focus is that mundane won't see it. So okay, you get away with it if mundanes strip you naked and take of all your jewelry. Now let's think of the fate of the guy whose power focus was active and witnessed by a mage when he was caught. Will NPC choose tedious surgery to carefully remove the net on this tibia?

Why wouldn't they? When my Cyberlogician was caught they took him into surgery and stripped him of almost all of his ware. Sucked, to be sure, but it gave me the chance to re-aspect his ware when he got out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[freudqo]

Why wouldn't they? When my Cyberlogician was caught they took him into surgery and stripped him of almost all of his ware. Sucked, to be sure, but it gave me the chance to re-aspect his ware when he got out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You'll notice I didn't say they wouldn't ^^ . My question is more about the "likelihood" that they'll do it. I'm trying to assess the advantages of having an implanted focus, with my call. Well, the advantage is that mundane won't detect it if you're naked. The disadvantage is that aware enemies wanting to steal it might use some gruesome method. They don't have to. But they'll have a shorter and easier time than going real precise surgery. Just that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You'll notice I didn't say they wouldn't ^^ . My question is more about the "likelihood" that they'll do it. I'm trying to assess the advantages of having an implanted focus, with my call. Well, the advantage is that mundane won't detect it if you're naked. The disadvantage is that aware enemies wanting to steal it might use some gruesome method. They don't have to. But they'll have a shorter and easier time than going real precise surgery. Just that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well yes, that is indeed true. Just looking at the steps some Shadowrunners at my table take in that regard. Gruesome is a polite word in those circumstances. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[freudqo]

Well yes, that is indeed true. Just looking at the steps some Shadowrunners at my table take in that regard. Gruesome is a polite word in those circumstances. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, indeed, it's pretty rare that NPCs actually extract bone lacing through Ray Bradbury's skeleton short story method. PCs don't have this kind of delicacy. Makes one wonder.

[Shemhazai]

In my view, if you swallow something and it comes out the other side, it was never a part of your body. If you implant a compartment, things in that compartment are not a part of your body, nor your astral form when astrally perceiving.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In my view, if you swallow something and it comes out the other side, it was never a part of your body. If you implant a compartment, things in that compartment are not a part of your body, nor your astral form when astrally perceiving.

But you may not be implanting a compartment. You may be wrapping the femur with a fine titanium mesh that is a Focus. It is not in a separate compartment, but it is attached to your bone. While I see no issues with this, apparently others do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[freudqo]

In my view, if you swallow something and it comes out the other side, it was never a part of your body. If you implant a compartment, things in that compartment are not a part of your body, nor your astral form when astrally perceiving.

Errr, aren't focus in your pocket able to be activated at will any more?

[Shemhazai]

But you may not be implanting a compartment. You may be wrapping the femur with a fine titanium mesh that is a Focus. It is not in a separate compartment, but it is attached to your bone. While I see no issues with this, apparently others do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh, yes. I get that. My thoughts are that something that physically displaces your real body can be said to not occupy it's astral form either. I can definitely see how people wouldn't agree with my interpretation.

Of course, the Object Resistance of something like that would be 9, no?

[Shemhazai]

Errr, aren't focus in your pocket able to be activated at will any more?

It's not about activating, but whether they can actually be there in the first place while you're astrally perceiving.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not about activating, but whether they can actually be there in the first place while you're astrally perceiving.

Well, in theory, all Foci Attuned to you (and on your person) are present in the Astral (when projecting at least), should you desire them to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[freudqo]

It's not about activating, but whether they can actually be there in the first place while you're astrally perceiving.

Errr, I remember that a focus in your pocket was in contact with your astral form and could be activated at will even if it didn't contact your body. So I don't see why something in your stomach wouldn't, or something in a bone compartment wouldn't.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Errr, I remember that a focus in your pocket was in contact with your astral form and could be activated at will even if it didn't contact your body. So I don't see why something in your stomach wouldn't, or something in a bone compartment wouldn't.

Precisely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cochise]

The problem here is that you try to use experiences you have from the real physical world ("One solid object can't be at the same place another solid object already is"), and then try to apply it to the astral plane of a fictional universe.

Incorrect. I'm applying a phenomenon of two astrally active entities in one place under the explicit systematic premise that with the exception of Earth's astral body such bodies cannot pass through each other and the state of being engulfed by another astral body being a subset of that particular state.

But its a magic realm, it uses completely different laws of nature, and all we know about how it works, is what is stated in the rules.

Which actually was precisely my point: Without explicit rules on a level that provides a general description of the involved meta physical laws there's only what rules explicitly state. One particular "rule" suggests that it should not be possible while - depending on Edition - one reference might suggest otherwise. No final verdict possible that could be generalized to a degree that can be considered a "save assumption".

We can try to deduce from the (sparse) descriptions we are given on how the astral plane works, but if our deductions contradict other points that the rules clearly state, then the rules win and not our derivations.

So that leaves us with "undecided" ... which for "whatever reason" was my initial verdict

Here a quote from SR5 Basic book page 319 (since SR5 seems to be the most referenced in this thread)

No further descriptions how having the focus active hinders you while on astral perception. Here would have been the place to mentin problems that arise from using the piercing option. So at least in SR5 the problems you were worried about do not exist. One astral object inside another? Astral plane does not care.

Try to find the rules on passing of active astral entities through each other in SR5. It might turn out to be "fun".

The fact that the author may not have thought it through, isn't a big problem, since its fictional magic.

Sorry, but "it's magic" is no carte blanche for inconsistent meta physics on rule level. I'll leave considerations of how "big" that problem is up to personal discretion.

A 300 Nuyen grenade that contains hundred thousands Nuyens worth of monowire, thats a problem because we know the laws of market economy.
But we dont know the laws of a fictional astral plane.

We do know the the laws on the fictional astral plane as "good" as the game framework explains it. If that explanation is lacking we're facing "requires house ruling" territory where the GM has to consider the ramifications of his decision. Again something that I have already said.

One request: Please refrain from any further assumptions on which particular considerations I used as part of my explanations like you did with your first sentence in your last post. Because that is bound to turn into bad attempts of using non-existent clairvoyant powers that will cause this conversation to end up as something where you start fighting me on an "ad hominem" level.

[Beaumis]

Unlike in later Editions there was no inherent demand for a bound focus to stay within the bonded mage's direct possession after the bonding.

Actually, that's a myth created by the Shadowrun Novels, where mages duct tape spell locks to drones to make them invisible. By the rules, foci have always required direct contact to the magician's aura since first edition.

Ehran being an Immortal Elf and thus operating under NPC rule of "whatever the story requires" in addition to the "special enchantment" rules?! That certainly leaves more than enough wiggle room for such an implanted focus being bonded and controlled by Ehran, since it becomes a plot device.

This point cannot be stressed enough. The Harlequin books outright say that neither Ehran nor Harlequin adhere to the rules in any way, shape or form. In the world, they simply use a different, way more "advanced" kind of magic to accomplish their goals. In terms of game mechanics they are GM Fiat. Using them as an example for anything in the SR world is a bad idea because more than any other character, they are literally the exceptions to the rules.

[freudqo]

Actually, that's a myth created by the Shadowrun Novels, where mages duct tape spell locks to drones to make them invisible. By the rules, foci have always required direct contact to the magician's aura since first edition.

Maybe in first edition, but not since. In SR3, for sure a sustaining focus had to be with the target of certain spells, which could be someone else than the caster.

[Beaumis]

You're right, my bad. I double checked and third actually has that exception. First and second handled spell locks as objects that could be bound to others but always had to be in contact with the aura of the owner (which was also the target).

[Sendaz]

ninjaed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)