SR5 Technomancer feedback thread, For an upcoming book! Wow! Options

[Cochise]

Which I'd be okay with if it didn't violate the basic setting premise that technology is inherently incompatible with magic.

Yes, that is my main problem with that premise, too.

I can't quite subscribe to the claim that magic and technology are "inherently incompatible" - particularly not as a "basic setting premise". Certainly, they are at odds with each other in many cases and the latter can negatively impact the former while the former has a harder time of successfully affecting the latter but not to a degree that would warrant the "inherently incompatible" label. Fun fact: Magical effects, items and entities of higher levels are equally or more difficult to deal with when compared to technology since technology lacks the power to actually "resist" magic once sufficiently high powered magic is used against it.

So for me it boils down to this: Technomancers do possess some kind of supernatural power when compared to "mundane" humans. Though not easily, they even can be identified by "standard" magic users as to what they are (while interestingly enough the same cannot be said in reverse). Whether you want to call those powers (a kind of) "magic" or not is pretty much insubstantial to what they represent on the meta-physics level of the SR universe. I actually find it quite amusing that the developers even tried to use the "magic that is no magic" rationale in the first place.

[Sengir]

Though not easily, they even can be identified by "standard" magic users as to what they are

The same is true for metal bits in your bones, or the collection of STIs someone caught during his last trip to the barrens. That does not make either of those magical (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(while interestingly enough the same cannot be said in reverse).

Well, a hacker can simply get into your diary and find out your're awakened

[Cochise]

The same is true for metal bits in your bones, or the collection of STIs someone caught during his last trip to the barrens. That does not make either of those magical (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And which part of the sentence you quoted claimed that the possibility of successful identification is related to their (own) "magical" / "supernatural" nature?
*edit* To clarify: That particular sentence only referred to the fact that the supernatural state of technomancers does not exist "outside" the perception of the standard "magic" environment that "normal" magicians live in. If their supernatural state really was something "completely different" and "independent" on the metaphysics level, there's not much that would explain how that particular state would or should show up under the standard "magic" observation of astral perception / aura reading.

Well, a hacker can simply get into your diary and find out your're awakened

Good try, but "a hacker" isn't a technomancer and even a technomancer "hacking" into a diary would still be something different than a magician making direct use of one of his supernatural gifts to make the identification. They'd be on equal foot there only if a technomancer had some form of sensory detection mechanism that allowed him/her to (more or less instantly) identify a bypassing mage in the same manner as a mage can in reverse.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would not call requiring 5 Hits on an Assensing Roll an "instant identification."

In all the years we had a Technomancer in 4th Edition, almost no mages identified him as such. It was really, really rare for them to obtain the requisite 5 hits required to do so.

[Cochise]

I would not call requiring 5 Hits on an Assensing Roll an "instant identification."

And now you're deliberately ignoring context in order to (needlessly) nitpick.

Fact of the matter: It's tough (as I stated) before, but a skilled magician can do it pretty much instantly (just as I said as well) with one of his supernatural senses and the technomancer cannot do the same in reverse (again something I stated previously). My comment wasn't even making a judgement concerning that asymmetry or went into details concerning the difficulty. It merely stated that it exists and the label "tough" was telling enough.

In all the years we had a Technomancer in 4th Edition, almost no mages identified him as such. It was really, really rare for them to obtain the requisite 5 hits required to do so.

Which only means that the mages your character met weren't necessarily "built" around the idea of (very) strong aura reading skills and additionally the responsible GMs might have come to the quite valid conclusion that just because the rules state "5 hit required to identify" not all magicians who score those hits by miracle also have a clue what that actually means ... just as I as a GM never turned magicians into cybertech or medical experts without associated knowledge skills just because the assensing table told that at 4+ successes you can pretty much diagnose any medical condition or locate and identify implants.

But this has certainly derailed this thread now far enough. May I suggest that you let it rest from this point on?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But this has certainly derailed this thread now far enough. May I suggest that you let it rest from this point on?

Wow, I make a single comment on the "immediacy" of the ability to call out a Technomancer through Assensing and I am so totally derailing the thread that you suggest that I cease and desist from said comments? Amazing indeed... *shrug*

[Cochise]

Wow, I make a single comment on the "immediacy" of the ability to call out a Technomancer through Assensing and I am so totally derailing the thread that you suggest that I cease and desist from said comments? Amazing indeed... *shrug*

Final comment: You act as if you are the only thing that exists there ... once again deliberately ignoring context and a bit too full of yourself: Count the number of (consecutive) postings - including mine, hermit's, Sengir's, yours and others - that haven't actually dealt with what the OP's requested. Maybe then you get a clue as to why this has been enough of an derailment.

[Redjack]

And this is why we can't have nice things....

Please do not try to do the job of the forum staff. If you have an issue that you would like to see addressed, PM a moderator and we will take a look at the situation.

[Hibiki54]

Comparing a TM to a Decker aside, the biggest issue with a TM is Fading when using any sort of complex form. TMs are pretty much boned when doing any type of high level threading. They should have some Submergance powers similar to Metamagics like Centering that allows them to resist fading more efficiently. They should also have some complex forms similar to some magic counter parts that had a L-3 or L-6 code.

[Medicineman]

Guys , can we get back to Topic Please ?
I always compared a TM to a Decker like a Mystical Adept to a Streetsam.
The Streetsam or Decker is better, more impressive at the Start because they can get big Boosts to Attributes ,Ini and Skills with the Help of 'ware (Deck & Progs)
whereas the Mystical Adept ( TM) starts lower in Abilities but over the Time (and with lots of Karma ) they can become more Awesome, gain more and diverse Abilities ( the Myst Adept with initiation, the TM with Immersion)AND they can get Spirits (Sprites) to help them out.
At least that was my Impression in SR4A .
I would like to have the same Developement again in SR5.
I haven't played a TM in 5th ed, so I have no personal experience, but from what I read in the Forums, the TMs..... get the Short Stick now .
This might be OK, if they hav a chance to get more important Abilities / to become more versatile later on

with a Long Shot Dance
Medicineman

[KCKitsune]

Well. What I'd like to see is a definite call on the origins of technomancy. As is, there are two mutually exclusive concepts - "Matrix Magic" as per early SR4, which basically concludes technomancy is a form of magic... <i>snip</i>

But Technomancers are NOT using magic as their abilities work outside the manasphere. Also in areas of high background count it does jack squat. I thought to myself that this was true psionics (not the bovine excrement in Street Magic). Pure power of the mind over matter.

[hermit]

Precisely. Which is why I'd like to see a definite ruling here.

And no, please not as a new track of super-magic, complete with Whiter Men from Mars. SR2 was bad enough, no need to go down that rabbit hole again.

[Smash]

you clearly haven't looked at the TM rules lately.

technomancers are extremely far off of replacing *anything* in 5th edition. hell, the only build that is regarded as being reasonably playable basically has the technomancer replaced by a collection of sprites. you could literally have the TM sit at home and hand out sprite services to the team before the run, and not see much of a difference so long as you have a sufficiently large collection of registered sprites with lots of services. that's how relevant TMs are right now.

The thing is with that argument is that it's based on technomancers with zero karma. When you play one for a while you notice them getting significantly better because they can buy all those low level abilitys they had to skip at creation while everyone else is burning exponential karma raising a few 6s to 7s.

I accept that people want to be baddasses from the get-go but that's just not how TMs work and if that beef up the front end I'd really want to see the back end stripped away otherwise all you're doing is making deckers the role that nobody plays and they've already held that status since 2nd Ed.

[Abschalten]

The thing is with that argument is that it's based on technomancers with zero karma.

I think you could base your analysis on a technomancer with 100 or even 200 karma and the argument would still hold up fairly well.

[Ren]

Precisely. Which is why I'd like to see a definite ruling here.

And no, please not as a new track of super-magic, complete with Whiter Men from Mars. SR2 was bad enough, no need to go down that rabbit hole again.

I was actually thinking about Harlequin's cryptic Matrix conversations, which seemed to hint that the Matrix would be the key to dealing with the HorrorsEnemy and using that as a starting point for how to think of TMs fitting into Shadowrun's mythology. Not magic, because magic didn't very well help the last time around, did it?

Is that not an avenue I should pursue?

EDIT: Wanted to confirm that I am reading this thread and it's given a couple pretty good ideas! Thanks so far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Abschalten]

I was actually thinking about Harlequin's cryptic Matrix conversations, which seemed to hint that the Matrix would be the key to dealing with the HorrorsEnemy and using that as a starting point for how to think of TMs fitting into Shadowrun's mythology. Not magic, because magic didn't very well help the last time around, did it?

Is that not an avenue I should pursue?

Eh, I've always thought Shadowrun was better off being distanced from the old Earthdawn tie-in stuff, since it naturally lead to Immortal Elf fanboi wankery and the like. Of course, SR5 is the Grognard Hard-on edition, so mine is probably the minority dissenting opinion on the matter.

In any event I'm having trouble seeing how technomantic powers would be key to dealing with the Horrors should they return (though it's entirely possible I just don't have the imagination to see it.) If this is the route you take, it will be interesting to see what you come up with.

As for other ideas and suggestions for TMs, I'm really not sure what I can give. I have no idea how much latitude you are going to be given with technomancers in terms of giving them new stuff and fixing what's broken. They really need an overhaul to put them on par with the other classes. The Echoes-via-submersion model as put forth doesn't work as the Echoes are just adept power analogs that are ridiculously overpriced. Complex Forms need their Fading brought down across the board. And basic things like PAN/WAN functionality needs to be given back to the TMs so they can have MEANINGFUL interactions with devices again.

Given that SR5 has been out two years without any patches to TM capabilities, I don't think the changes that they need will be permitted. I could be wrong. CGL might grant the leeway needed and you might write an excellent PDF. It could be so awesome that it could get me back into Shadowrun. I can only hope.

[Jaid]

I think you could base your analysis on a technomancer with 100 or even 200 karma and the argument would still hold up fairly well.

agreed (so long as you're comparing to a similarly advanced decker, that is; a 200 karma technomancer is probably going to be better than a 0 karma decker)

the thing is, the decker will be able to advance their skills, won't have to be a total liability outside of the matrix, and will still have all the same advantages held at zero karma. at 200 karma, the technomancer *still* won't be able to reconfigure their deck, will *still* take matrix damage on their own health instead of taking it to an easily repaired device, will *still* be dealing with extreme levels of fading, will still have to make a decision between augmentations and resonance, still won't have programs, and so forth.

you seem to think that 200 karma is going to make you into some sort of matrix god. it really isn't. the "low level abilities" (by which i presume you mean complex forms) still will not be that impressive, even if you do learn them all (frankly, i think there's really only maybe 3-4 that are even *worth* taking anyways), and their fading will still be absolutely brutal (i'm not sure just what you imagine having maybe +3 dice in your fading resistance pool is going to do for you, but it isn't going to make 7+ fading damage go down to zero).

and this even if we assume that it makes any sense at all to balance the game at a point where many people will not reach and leave it broken at a point where almost everyone is guaranteed to reach. how does that make sense?

[Ren]

Eh, I've always thought Shadowrun was better off being distanced from the old Earthdawn tie-in stuff, since it naturally lead to Immortal Elf fanboi wankery and the like. Of course, SR5 is the Grognard Hard-on edition, so mine is probably the minority dissenting opinion on the matter.

In any event I'm having trouble seeing how technomantic powers would be key to dealing with the Horrors should they return (though it's entirely possible I just don't have the imagination to see it.) If this is the route you take, it will be interesting to see what you come up with.

As for other ideas and suggestions for TMs, I'm really not sure what I can give. I have no idea how much latitude you are going to be given with technomancers in terms of giving them new stuff and fixing what's broken. They really need an overhaul to put them on par with the other classes. The Echoes-via-submersion model as put forth doesn't work as the Echoes are just adept power analogs that are ridiculously overpriced. Complex Forms need their Fading brought down across the board. And basic things like PAN/WAN functionality needs to be given back to the TMs so they can have MEANINGFUL interactions with devices again.

Given that SR5 has been out two years without any patches to TM capabilities, I don't think the changes that they need will be permitted. I could be wrong. CGL might grant the leeway needed and you might write an excellent PDF. It could be so awesome that it could get me back into Shadowrun. I can only hope.

I'm not saying I'd adhere to it like Gospel, just that as a starting point. "This weird internet stuff is something so new and different that it could be the key to whooping the horrors? What would that be like?" Big D thought it was a big deal too, remember how much he left to the study of Otaku? I would personally be happy if I never had to touch Harlequin or Dunkelzahn's will in the actual lore, though, tbh. Harlequin is...tricky to do right, to say the least, and I firmly believe the will was a list of plot coupons for GMs, not writers. But now I'm off topic.

Anything is on the table, but huge changes like how Echoes work would be presented as alternate rules; You can use them, and the book will support the SR5/Data Trails rules, but we also have this here if you want to try that.

I agree that two years without fixing Technomancers is a problem. It's actually why I signed on with Catalyst. To write this book and hopefully give them the awesomeness they deserve, without just escalating the Decker vs. TM playability war.

I wholeheartedly agree with Fading being too strong and PAN support. My SR game is testing some new ideas I had for rules to counter that without making Deckers redundant right now, actually.

[Abschalten]

I wholeheartedly agree with Fading being too strong and PAN support. My SR game is testing some new ideas I had for rules to counter that without making Deckers redundant right now, actually.

The thing is, deckers are never going to be redundant. What alot of handwringers and pro-decker diehards don't understand is that if you give both of them an equivalent pile of karma, deckers will grow their skills while technomancers will focus on submersions and their attributes. And while TMs have a karma bottleneck, deckers have a dual advancement track based on nuyen.

In SR4 and SR4A, all that would've been needed to balance long-term hackers vs. technomancers would've been to increase the skill cap to 12 and make hardware and software ratings go up to 12. A hacker would've devoted money into implants, hardware, and software while putting karma into his skills. Technomancers would've had to make hard choices about which skills to raise vs. their other needs.

So while technomancers are going to have all the neat tricks and help from sprites, hackers (or deckers) will have the raw skill and the high-end hardware/software to crush the opposition. Sure, you might have a Grade 2, Resonance 8 technomancer who has some neat echoes and whatnot. Meet a hacker who dumped every penny into his gear, and all his karma into his skills, and has support from implants that does not negatively impact his abilities -- quite the opposite.

What actually HURT deckers was the idiotic move back to old cyberdeck prices. I think if you chopped the last digit off of each of those deck prices you'd have something approaching reasonable, and they'd have much more parity and competitiveness with technomancers.

[Smash]

I wholeheartedly agree with Fading being too strong and PAN support. My SR game is testing some new ideas I had for rules to counter that without making Deckers redundant right now, actually.

I would argue that the point of comparison being shamans and magicians is unfair. If anything drain for traditional spellcasters is too soft and needs to be raised (particularly for area elemental spells). The argument that they should be balanced is valid, but reducing TM drain is the wrong way to do it.

[Ren]

I would argue that the point of comparison being shamans and magicians is unfair. If anything drain for traditional spellcasters is too soft and needs to be raised (particularly for area elemental spells). The argument that they should be balanced is valid, but reducing TM drain is the wrong way to do it.

I don't know a lot about magic but fading needs a nerf badly. I've heard countless stories of TMs dying in their first session from a bad biofeedback roll. You ever hear the one about the guy that faceplanted into a bowl of soup because he fried himself running a data search on Mr. Johnson? Hell, I came close to having that happen to my own character.

[hermit]

I was actually thinking about Harlequin's cryptic Matrix conversations, which seemed to hint that the Matrix would be the key to dealing with the HorrorsEnemy and using that as a starting point for how to think of TMs fitting into Shadowrun's mythology. Not magic, because magic didn't very well help the last time around, did it?

So ... the early SR4 "it's actually a weird form of pattern magic" track? Because that's what I took from that conversation (you're thinking about Alpha/Omega's in Target Matrix, right?).

Personally, I'd prefer something that ties in with the obvious Sprawl Trilogy inspiration from System Failure and late SR3. This would make Technomancers something basically mundane, more like modified humans than Awakened.

AI would also have to feature heavily in this, but to even guess at the feasibility of that line of thought I'd have to have read Data Trails entirely, and I'm not through yet. So maybe "it's a kind of magic (that is more awesome)" is the only way that's still possible.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think you could base your analysis on a technomancer with 100 or even 200 karma and the argument would still hold up fairly well.

The Technomancer I am playing is sitting at 159 Karma, and while she is better than when she started, she is still not where I would expect to see such a character at that level. It is a subjective thing, though, as everyone has different ideas on what makes a Technomancer ideal.

[KCKitsune]

Precisely. Which is why I'd like to see a definite ruling here.

And no, please not as a new track of super-magic, complete with Whiter Men from Mars. SR2 was bad enough, no need to go down that rabbit hole again.

Oh, no, no, no, I was NOT going down THAT path! I went through my cheesy Munchkin phase a long time ago. I'm sorry if you thought I wanted to turn TMs into ubermen.

I actually wrote up rules for Psionic abilities in Shadowrun, and they were more limited than Awakened. Sure they had some neat tricks, but nothing world shattering. Kinda like Technomancers.

In SR4, as you know, TM's when they had enough Karma, could become badass. I mean why would you need Wired Reflexes when you can get it for "free" with Echos? Just think about that Hermit, with nothing but the power of their minds, SR4 Technomancers could move as fast as a Street same who dumped at LEAST 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for Wired Reflexes 3 (that's the standard version, MUCH, MUCH, more for Alpha or better). That to me SCREAMS that Technomancers are Psionic.

[Abschalten]

The Technomancer I am playing is sitting at 159 Karma, and while she is better than when she started, she is still not where I would expect to see such a character at that level. It is a subjective thing, though, as everyone has different ideas on what makes a Technomancer ideal.

I think you misunderstand me. My position is even with a bunch of karma technomancers are underpowered and gimped. They never catch up to deckers except on timelines that involve more earned karma than most campaigns earn from start to finish.