SR5 Technomancer feedback thread, For an upcoming book! Wow! Options

[Blade]

I think that what's really important to consider is the basic question:

- Does the game need Technomancers?
or, assuming you can't answer "no"
- What do Technomancers bring to the game?

Once you've answered this question, you should be able to get an idea of what they should be able to do, or not, and maybe how.

To me, Technomancers add a nice fluff layer, allowing the Matrix to be a stranger world. But if it's just it, then they should just follow decker's rules, with a few changes for the sake of fluff, the way Shamanist use Hermetist rules with a few changes for the sake of fluff. Maybe a better comparison would be adepts to streetsam: same combat rules, similar perks, just a different way to access and improve them.

Another thing I could see technomancer add is a "easier" way for players who want to do things in the Matrix but are put off by the whole technical aspect. In that case, Technomancers could be a "lite" version of the decker. They can do stuff in the Matrix, but don't have to worry about programs, hardware and all technical details. In SR4 terms (I don't know SR5 enough to judge), that would mean replacing all the concepts of programs/matrix actions/etc. with a set of "spells" similar to mage spells with simple and specific effects "Crash", "Prevent alarms", "Confuse people", "Intercept comms", etc.

[Abschalten]

... that would mean replacing all the concepts of programs/matrix actions/etc. with a set of "spells" similar to mage spells with simple and specific effects "Crash", "Prevent alarms", "Confuse people", "Intercept comms", etc.

This idea doesn't work very well in practice, at least not in SR4. The sheer number of dice rolls you make in any Shadowrun subsystem in the game's history is staggering. Even if Fading values for these "spells" were relatively low, the law of averages would catch up with you in no time as you are constantly making Fading rolls. Spending a half an hour in the library public host looking for books and doing research might be enough to lay you out for a day. Add on top of that the cumbersome nature of effectively doubling the number of rolls needed to perform anything (which already is a problem for technomancers in SR4) and you're looking at an approach that frankly isn't very fun.

[Blade]

@Abschalten: You'd obviously need to cut on the dice rolls (and it is generally speaking something that should be applied to many areas of Shadowrun, especially the Matrix). The idea is not that the TM would cast "spells" for all Matrix actions, but that the TM would have access to "spells" that would abstract all the hacking parts.

Doing the research in the public library would just require casting one "Datamining" techno-spell. In my examples, "prevent alarms" would be a sustained spell that would apply on all system near the TM (in the physical world if in AR or in the Matrix if in VR), no worries about accessing nodes, using exploit, deleting logs, etc.

[Draco18s]

Hacker needs fewer rolls as well. If a mage can open a blocked door with one spell, maybe two (Shape [Material]), the street sam can do it in one or two shots from a shotgun (with breeching ammo) why does it take two hundred and forty-seven for a hacker? Brute force entry into the system, avoid IC, search the network for the right node, spoof some commands/whatever, get spotted, fight some IC, log out...

This should have become painfully obvious when they did that short little piece for SR4A showing a hacker taking control of a drone, narrating it in-character and showing the rolls ooc. Took six god damn pages and they stopped giving a shit around page 4 and just fudged it so they could be done with the stupid exercise.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well...
Blowing a hole in a door takes a second or two...
Picking the lock and disabling the alarm on that same door could take upwards of minutes.

Hacking falls somewhere in between. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And btw... why are you Brute Forcing the system? Many of the rolls you take after that are because you did just that. With a Sleaze, you don't need to avoid the IC immediately, you search the network (1 Action - which potentially nets you the door and the AID of the Spider on the system; 1 question per net on the Perception test), and then you spoof the device (1 Action) and done. You MAY need to avoid the Spider after the fact, but that is not a forgone conclusion. Hide after the Spoof and continue to ride the network.

[Draco18s]

And btw... why are you Brute Forcing the system? Many of the rolls you take after that are because you did just that.

Because probing the target takes hours?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because probing the target takes hours?

Not in 5th Edition it doesn't. And we ARE discussing 5th Edition.
In 4th Edition, if you had not probed the target and provided yourself a backdoor for when the run was live (which can be accomplished with just a few rolls that take up almost no time at all), then you were doing it wrong (or at least inefficiently). And yes, sometimes that is not possible, which is why you then use social engineering or a good thuggin' to get on the network a different way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Not in 5th Edition it doesn't. And we ARE discussing 5th Edition.

Touche. But keep in mind I haven't touched 5th except with an 11 foot pole.
The point still stands that if a hacker can't do a simple task in less than 8 rolls, then the rules are wrong. (And 8 is pushing it, the ideal is 2).

[Sandorian]

Hello everybody.

On the german board I postet the concept of creating gadgets: Personalized gear for Technomancers to give them something they can spend their nuyen for and improve their stats (but don't get overpowered). Maybe you can find something useful.

The central ideas are:
- Gadgets are physical objects made of electronic components, which deliver an anchor for a quite unstable resonance-construct.
- Gadgets must be constructed by the Technomancer who wants to use it, using his hardware and software-skill (and facing fade).
- Like Foki they have to be activated to work.
- Unlike Foki you don't have to spend Karma on them.
- Gadgets an quite instable so there is a chance of breaking the Gadget when activating it.
- Gadgets appear as icons slaved to the living persona and can be attacked in matrix combat (if they get hit, they are deactivated an need some time to recover.)
- The Number of Gadgets you can bind to your persona is limited: Similar to adepts a technomancer gets an amount of synchronization-points (SP) equal to his resonance.
- Each Gadget needs some SP to be synchronized with the living persona.
- Nuyen an SP costs are different for each gadget. Some Gadgets have levels to increase the effect, but this also increases the amount of nuyen an SP you have to pay for. If not limited by the gadget itself the max. level for a gadget is 1+Submersion grade.
- The number of active gadgets you can obtain is equal to [Resonance]/2.
- If a gadget is destroyed (by an enemy or yourself) you get the SP back, the nuyen are lost.

Gadget example:

Adapter
0,25 SP per level
500 ¥ per level
Allows the technomancer to act as master to a number of devices not higher then level x5 or [Resonance] x3.


The whole text can be found here (because I'm not used to write in english ;-D ):
http://www.foren.pegasus.de/foren/topic/24...r-technomancer/

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Maybe they could be called, I don't know, "Widgets," or something like that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sandorian]

The idea is similar to Widgets. The difference is that they are physical devices you can craft one day and use it later. Also I created some new effects different to the SR4a Widgets.

The ingame backround is that the new protocols prevent technomancers from using widgets so that they developed gadgets.

[Jaid]

i'd prefer if the gadget had a chance of failing after a certain length of use (or when deactivated but have activation last only a limited time) rather than when you turn it on. breaking when you try to activate it makes them too unreliable. you should be able to use them at least once, imo.

[Draco18s]

i'd prefer if the gadget had a chance of failing after a certain length of use (or when deactivated but have activation last only a limited time) rather than when you turn it on. breaking when you try to activate it makes them too unreliable. you should be able to use them at least once, imo.

The "curses" for magic items from (new) World of Darkness are a good place to look for stuff like this.

I think the "it breaks" one is more along the lines of "using while spending Edge" with the check made as you activate it, but it fails after you get the benefit. Also, the odds of it breaking goes up every time you make the check.

[Jaid]

ah, well, so long as it works at least once, that's fine.

[Draco18s]

Ah, I was wrong; had to locate the right book and then the right passage, took me a bit (which included running to the store for milk and bread).

It's when the item is used and the user fails their task does the "Mortality" pool increases. The mortality is rolled before (a success means the item takes 1 damage) and the item is used normally (unless it is completely destroyed, and repairs are allowed). So yeah, you still get several uses out of it, even if you're unlucky.

[artent]

Steal the rules for FOCI from the magic section and make Technomancer versions to give them an overall power boost. Steal the rules for Physads to give TM's more overall power.

Have TM's have at least 3 potential paths of power
1-sprite herder
2-mage(using complex forms almost exclusively to do things deckers CANNOT do while avoiding GOD)
3-being 1 trick ponies that are better than deckers at 1-2 tasks but worse at all the rest


echos that allow TM's to provide matrix overwatch

LOOT the Adepts Ways from the magic book, make sure that a rigging build is possible out of chargen.


general notes:
CLEARLY separate fluff from game rules. Have all the fluff you want about whatever, but clearly label EXACTLY what everything does, don't be vague about any game effect. Be vague about origins, and how it works but not what it does.

Include examples of play. You may think your explanations are clear cut, they are not, include examples.

Make sure everything DOES something. There are a ton of qualities that DON'T DO ANYTHING. Like those qualities that give you like +1 die on athletics test made to swim...which cost the same as +1 rank of athletics.

[Draco18s]

Make sure everything DOES something. There are a ton of qualities that DON'T DO ANYTHING. Like those qualities that give you like +1 die on athletics test made to swim...which cost the same as +1 rank of athletics.

Reminds me of a Pathfinder thread for finding the worst feat.
The one they came up with was Caustic Slur. As a free action, you taunt one of your foes. Mechanical benefit, said foe gains the benefits of the Power Attack feat on his next attack if he targets you.
That quality would fit right into that thread, heh.

[Blade]

Re-reading my home-made SR system, I've been reminded of this concept I've created for Technomancers that you might be interested in: the resonance field.

The concept is that TM generate some kind of Resonance field that surrounds them and affect the Matrix in their (physical or matrix when in full VR) area. The TM player can decide on one effect he wants this field to have. It's a generic concept like "we're not here", "we're the cleaning team", "what are people saying?" that will affect all Matrix nodes in the area. For example, if the TM pretends that the team is a security team, all cameras around them will see them as a cleaning team and the SIN readers will report that they're the cleaning team.

The resolution mechanics in my rules is pretty different, so I can't be very precise in the system behind it but the field should get a rating depending on a roll or something, and this rating will be the maximum rating of the nodes that will be fooled by the field. Maintaining the field gives negative modifiers similar to maintaining spells.

I think that this ability goes quite well with the "instinctive" aspect of the TM use of the Matrix, as well as with the concept of Resonance, and it's also a good solution for players who play TM because they want to do stuff in the Matrix but are scared by complex rules and gear requirements.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that this ability goes quite well with the "instinctive" aspect of the TM use of the Matrix, as well as with the concept of Resonance, and it's also a good solution for players who play TM because they want to do stuff in the Matrix but are scared by ... gear requirements.

The nice thing about a Technomancer is that they really do not need any Matrix Gear. Yes, they will likely get a comlink just to blend, but other than that, the Resonance Node handles it all.

[Draco18s]

For example, if the TM pretends that the team is a security team, all cameras around them will see them as a cleaning team and the SIN readers will report that they're the cleaning team.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

That is because the Security team is posing as a Cleaning team to look innocuous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

That is because the Security team is posing as a Cleaning team to look innocuous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Maybe they're just doing a clean scrub of the facility.

[Blade]

Oops, looks like I've mixed up two examples.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein: That's my point exactly. I think that many players who play TM do so because they want to do stuff in the Matrix without having to bother with all the gear requirements and all the technical complexity of ha/deckers (which - on the other hand - is something that some ha/decker players truly enjoy). Hence the concept of having TM use lighter rules that are easier to grasp and use.

[Draco18s]

I think that many players who play TM do so because they want to do stuff in the Matrix without having to bother with all the gear requirements and all the technical complexity of ha/deckers (which - on the other hand - is something that some ha/decker players truly enjoy). Hence the concept of having TM use lighter rules that are easier to grasp and use.

That's a very interesting way of going about it. I like the S.E.P. Field Effect, it fits right in with the mental perception I have of Technos.
I commend you for coming up with some mechanics that make it work.

[Sendaz]

It does sound interesting and worth taking a look at.