Augmentation / Chrome Flesh Questions Options

[branford]

What's the functional difference between Symbiots (SR5, p. 459-460) and Nanosymbiots (CF, p. 148), and under what scenario would it actually be more advantageous to attempt to acquire the latter.

The Nanosymbiots appear far more illegal, unavailable, expensive, have a lower max Rating, and depending on how one interprets the descriptions, do not provide any bonus to healing while under professional medical care.


Symbiots: [Add Rating as dice pool modifier to healing tests (physical and stun)]

Rating: 1-4
Essence: Rating x 0.2
Availability: Rating x 5
Cost Rating x 3500¥
+ Upkeep Rating x 200¥ /month or 0¥ with High Lifestyle

Note: Upkeep cost can be eliminated with Complimentary Genetics: Enhanced Symbiosis [Essence 0.1 / Availability 6 / Cost 4,000¥]


Nanosymbiots: [Add Rating as dice pool modifier to healing tests through natural recovery]

Rating: 1-3
Essence: 0
Availability: 8F
Cost: Rating x 6000¥

+Must Have Soft Nanohive at equal Rating as nanites

Rating: 1-6
Essence: Rating x 0.2
Availability: (Rating x 5) R
Cost: Rating x 10,000¥


Also, would bonuses from Symbiotes and Nanosymbiotes stack?

Similarly, would the healing and resistance test bonuses also stack with the relevant nanotech (Anti-Tox, Nanidotes) and bioware such as Amplified Immune System, Nephritic Screen, Pathogenic Defense, Toxin Filter, Tracheal Filter, etc.?

[branford]

Follow-up question:

What the difference between Amplified Immune System (CF, p. 112-12) and Pathogenic Defense (SR5, p. 459). They both just add their Rating to Disease Resistance Tests.

It would appear that the Pathogenic Defense (enhanced spleen) would be subsumed by the AIS (which mentions an upgraded spleen and other upgrades) based on the descriptions. Oddly, the seemingly more limited PD Rating goes up to 6, while AIS is limited to 4. Moreover, while they have the same Essence Ratings, the PD is a mere Availability Rating x 2, while AIS is rating x 7. The only benefit to AIS is a slightly lower cost.

Also, do the PD and AIS bioware bonuses stack?

[branford]

As an additional follow-up, it really appears that many of the augmentations in Chrome Flesh were not balanced or harmonized with the corebook. Since most of these upgrades are the same as SR4, it's all the more surprising and disappointing.

For example, lets compare the Toxin Extractor (SR5, p. 460) with the Nephritic Screen (CF, p. 113), both basic biotech anti-toxin augmentations. As demonstrated below, why the heck would anyone choose the Toxin Extractor as it costs a LOT more essence, is more expensive, less readily available and has significantly fewer benefits?

Toxin Extractor: [Adds Rating to dice pool for Toxin Resistance Tests]

Rating: 1-6
Essence: Rating x 0.2
Availability: Rating x 3
Cost: Rating x 4,800¥

Nephritic Screen: [Adds Rating to dice pool for Toxin Resistance Tests AND Disease Resistance Tests AND reduces chance of drug addiction and other drug-related effects and duration ]

Rating: 1-6
Essence: Rating x 0.05
Availability: Rating x 2
Cost: Rating x 4,000¥

[Wakshaani]

Follow-up question:

What the difference between Amplified Immune System (CF, p. 112-12) and Pathogenic Defense (SR5, p. 459). They both just add their Rating to Disease Resistance Tests.

It would appear that the Pathogenic Defense (enhanced spleen) would be subsumed by the AIS (which mentions an upgraded spleen and other upgrades) based on the descriptions. Oddly, the seemingly more limited PD Rating goes up to 6, while AIS is limited to 4. Moreover, while they have the same Essence Ratings, the PD is a mere Availability Rating x 2, while AIS is rating x 7. The only benefit to AIS is a slightly lower cost.

Also, do the PD and AIS bioware bonuses stack?

That one's my albatros. I have a big pile of notes from jumping through every edition's main book, Augmentations, Shadowtech, and my own crazed imagination, and somewhere in there, two things happened:

One, I thought that the Encephlon was in the SR5 core book (it isn't) and two I thought that the Pathogenic Defense wasn't (it is) ... so I put the wrong dang thing in Chrome Flesh. That one's totally on me, and when we get the errata together, we'll get a fix. I'm gonna carry that one for a while, though. Stupid notes.

It's a straight-up mistake, and I'm eatting this one fully.

[Stahlseele]

That one's my albatros. I have a big pile of notes from jumping through every edition's main book, Augmentations, Shadowtech, and my own crazed imagination, and somewhere in there, two things happened:

One, I thought that the Encephlon was in the SR5 core book (it isn't) and two I thought that the Pathogenic Defense wasn't (it is) ... so I put the wrong dang thing in Chrome Flesh. That one's totally on me, and when we get the errata together, we'll get a fix. I'm gonna carry that one for a while, though. Stupid notes.

It's a straight-up mistake, and I'm eatting this one fully.

First step in getting better is admitting that you are wrong.
At least you are admitting it and not trying to make it look like something else.
That in itself is worth a bit already. Not many people do that.

[branford]

I was actually just about to add another questions about the encephalon. I was looking at all the 5e books, and thought I was loosing my mind when I couldn't find it. Glad I'm not nuts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As long as we get a comprehensive errata, no harm, no foul, as far as I'm concerned.

As I indicated in my other questions, some of the descriptions and essence/price/availability costs really do warrant another look and greater clarification and harmonization.

For instance, I was rereading my 4e Augmentation, and realized a BIG downside to the Nephritic Screen in that edition was it only applied to slow acting toxins and diseases. That is a pretty significant disadvantage that was omitted from Chrome Flesh that might justify the choosing a higher cost Toxin Extractor.

A number of cyber and bioware items from Augmentation also didn't make it into Chrome Flesh. Was this intentional, or due to space restrictions?

Lastly, do the bonuses for various augmentations, particularly nanoware, that have similar effects (e.g., rolls to resist toxins and disease or heal) stack, or does only the highest bonus apply?

Thanks.

[Wakshaani]

For now, the cyber and bio stack, but I don't know on the Gene stuff. That's a *rough* ruling until errata for Chrome Flesh gets an official sticker ... I'll likely rewrite the rules on some troublesome bits (Like the Immune System) to try and smooth away those lumps. Call it a temporary patch until we can get you into surgery. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

*Most* of the cyber and bio made it in, some didn't mostly because of redundancy. If something gave a bonus to disease and something gave a bonus to poison, and something else gave disease *and* poison, it kind of eliminated the need for other stuff. Some was removed if it just didn't quite click with the current 'feel' of the game, or if it never got used. Space wasn't a real problem as I had a *lot* of room to work, but I was more focused on getting more things in than fewer, more rules-heavy stuff. I'd rather have four things with three sentences each than one with three paragraphs. Simpler is (often) better.

I'll see if they'll let me do a "Chrome Flesh Augmentation" mini-PDF that will add a few things that were missed (Encephlon! Crap!), explain the concept of the Essence Hole, and a few other little things. If there are any old bits that aren't in the current book that you feel SHOULD be, by all means, flag 'em here and I'll see what I can do.

[Stahlseele]

Seems like you might be in need of some mnemonic enhancement (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ^^

[Wakshaani]

Seems like you might be in need of some mnemonic enhancement (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ^^

You have no idea. *weeps*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[branford]

With or without CFD, nanotech is supposed to be the cutting edge in cybernetics, with benefits that justify its high cost, risk and restricted access. However, many of the nanites (with hives), particularly the soft nanites, are inferior to or an extremely poor value compared to identically or very similarly performing cyber or biotech augmentations, as I indicated by way of example in my post about the symbiotes vs. the nanosymbiotes.

I would suggest reverting to the 4e Augmentation mechanics where an nanohive could simultaneously maintain its Rating number of active nanite systems, rather than the current rule of one active hard system per hard nanohive, or only one total nanite system per soft hive. This would substantially lower the price and essence cost and make nanotech a far better overall value.

Also, is it possible to maintain an Anti-Tox or O-Cell Rating 9 nanite colony with a soft nanohive, or are these systems limited to Rating 6 when utilizing a a nanohive since nanohive Ratings are limited to 6. Further, are nanosymbiotes supposed to be limited to a max Rating 3, or is that a typo, considering regular symbiotes can achieve Rating 4?

Thanks.

[branford]

Seems like you might be in need of some mnemonic enhancement (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ^^

You have no idea. *weeps*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't know about the two of you, but I could certainly use a Sleep Regulator. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SpellBinder]

You have no idea. *weeps*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

How about an External Memory?

[Fatum]

If there are any old bits that aren't in the current book that you feel SHOULD be, by all means, flag 'em here and I'll see what I can do.

As I've already said in the thread on the book itself, where's Simsense Booster?

[Wakshaani]

As I've already said in the thread on the book itself, where's Simsense Booster?

I'm trying to even remember that one. I know I never had anyone *take* it in my games, but, my game does not equal ALL games, clearly.

Anything else jump out as a miss? I'm trying to make a list.

[branford]

I'm trying to even remember that one. I know I never had anyone *take* it in my games, but, my game does not equal ALL games, clearly.

Anything else jump out as a miss? I'm trying to make a list.

I would like to see the return of:

Data Filter, Aug, p. 36
Eye Laser System, Aug, p. 39
Echolocation, Aug. p. 63
Enhanced Pheremone Receptors (or some form of biotech enhanced smell), Aug., p. 64 (also can use a biotech version of taste booster)
Metabolic Arrester, Aug, p. 66
Thermosense Organs, Aug. p. 70 (allows simultaneous use with other biotech sight enhancements like Cat Eyes)
Digestive Expansion, SR20, p. 345

Also, particularly since it's actually mentioned in the fluff on CF, p. 197, an aquatic Environmental Microadaptation would be interesting (either fish or mammalian)

Edit: Although I don't believe it has ever appeared in a SR book, I recall GURPS Biotech had an interesting bioware secondary heart. A SR version in either bio or cyber would be fun and very useful for the violent life of a shadowrunner.

[DeathStrobe]

As I've already said in the thread on the book itself, where's Simsense Booster?

There is no need for it. With the Multidimensional Coprocessor from Data Trails, deckers hit their +5d6 limit for initiative while in hotsim. And TMs have an echo.

[Draco18s]

I don't know about the two of you, but I could certainly use a Sleep Regulator. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I absolutely need both. I sleep like shit, don't get enough, and I sleep light (snorers? Can't be in the same room with 'em).

[Fatum]

There is no need for it. With the Multidimensional Coprocessor from Data Trails, deckers hit their +5d6 limit for initiative while in hotsim. And TMs have an echo.

First, if you ever opened 4e books, you should know that Simsense Booster specifically allows higher IP count that'd be possible otherwise, by the normal rules.
Second, even without changing the rules, the implant would serve as an alternative to the deck module. It's generally easier to lose your deck than your headware; but this additional security would be paid by Essence.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How about an External Memory?

That is just a computer... apparently it did not assist in this matter. :0

[DeathStrobe]

First, if you ever opened 4e books, you should know that Simsense Booster specifically allows higher IP count that'd be possible otherwise, by the normal rules.
Second, even without changing the rules, the implant would serve as an alternative to the deck module. It's generally easier to lose your deck than your headware; but this additional security would be paid by Essence.

If you lose your deck you're screwed and may was well just retire your character. You just lost a third of a million nuyen (or higher), and it's not very likely you'll be getting that back anytime soon.

As for your other reasons, those are fair enough, but one extra 6d on average is only going to be +3 initiative. That's not a lot and won't help deckers deal with the problem that all Matrix actions are complex.

[Jaid]

it seemed like it would be really awful, but not a total write-off, if you lose your deck now. from what i understand, it is possible to put together a discount deck that, while not great, is at least able to function, for a relatively low cost.

[KCKitsune]

it seemed like it would be really awful, but not a total write-off, if you lose your deck now. from what i understand, it is possible to put together a discount deck that, while not great, is at least able to function, for a relatively low cost.

That's one of the things that I truly despise about 5th edition. The initial bar to entry for anyone trying to being a decker. It costs so damn much to get into the decking game!

I also miss (unless I missed it somewhere), the rule that was in 4th edition about the lower half of cyber/bioware costing half the Essence when calculating your Essence loss.

[Wakshaani]

The half-Essence rule was turfed, yeah. I *hope* that we eventually see Cyberdecks drop in price. It's ... a difficult topic.

[Stahlseele]

That's one of the things that I truly despise about 5th edition. The initial bar to entry for anyone trying to being a decker. It costs so damn much to get into the decking game!

"Niche-Protection-Money!"

I also miss (unless I missed it somewhere), the rule that was in 4th edition about the lower half of cyber/bioware costing half the Essence when calculating your Essence loss.

So . . bioware now costs essence and the lower ammount does not get halved anymore to be able to fit more in?
That's a pretty big nerf for the mundanes with ware in my eyes O.o

[branford]

So . . bioware now costs essence and the lower amount does not get halved anymore to be able to fit more in?
That's a pretty big nerf for the mundanes with ware in my eyes O.o

However, the current system is simpler, and alpha, beta and deltaware (and gammaware??) is now much cheaper to help offset the minor effective bump in essence cost due to the elimination of the old rule.