Augmentation / Chrome Flesh Questions Options

[KCKitsune]

At what Karma level would it be reasonable to have ANYTHING delta?

Like I said, Beta grade cyber you can get a lot of different places... heck, if you're good enough, you might even be able to spoof your way in and get the ware.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

At what Karma level would it be reasonable to have ANYTHING delta?

Like I said, Beta grade cyber you can get a lot of different places... heck, if you're good enough, you might even be able to spoof your way in and get the ware.

When it becomes reasonable...

We are hitting the 200 Karma Level in our current game, and it is now becoming something that several characters have put an interest into. The Spy is looking to get better grades of Bioware, as well as upgrading her single piece of Cyber (the Datajack) to Delta Grade. The Wared Up Adrenalin Junkie/Sam is looking to replace and upgrade parts because he has a need to replace and upgrade parts (as well as make room for MORE parts). Since Delta Clinics have been a thing for the last 25`ish Years or so, they are no longer considered street legend or non-existent. They are available, though fairly difficult to gain entry to (depending upon how you interpret the rules given for such things). If you have the right contacts, and the right amount of Nuyen, one can gain access to a Delta Clinic. Can you trust them? Maybe, Maybe Not. All depends upon the needs of the story.

In our Last Campaign, we did not see a Delta Clinic until almost 400 Karma. Different Campaigns, Different Availabilities. Of course, the current Campaign we are all playing characters (well, some of them anyways) that had serious connections to the Corporate world in one way or another from the get go. The last campaign we played, only two characters were intimately tied to the Corporate World (the Undercover Infiltrator and the Ex-Company Man).

Access to a Delta Clinic happens when it happens. Rarely as early as we would like it to, of course, but there you go. Especially since NOW Delta Grade is no longer the holy grail of augmentations.

[hermit]

But, yeah, getting some is *not* easy. In North America, you can find 'em in Vancouver (Universal Omnitech), Detroit (Ares HQ), and Boston (NeoNET HQ) ... DocWagon's trying to get a Delta clinic up in Atlanta, but doesn't have it running yet. There *might* be one in Alberquerque as well. Maybe.

Well, there're a couple more. Ares inherited Cross' Delta Clinic in Quebec City; Aztlan has one in Tenochtitlan and one in Panama City; and there's supposed to be an independent Delta Clinic in Vancouver (UO's actually is supposed to be in Africa). Sources can be provided if you want to.

And there are conflicting accounts on Horizon's Delta Clinic. In Corporate Enclaves, it was hinted that they have one on Santa Catalina Island (p. 28, Butch's Shadowtalk), then suddenly they do not have one but would really like to.

Also, what was the point of making Cyberware reliant on suppressant drugs all of a sudden, which it has never been before? Too much playing Deus Ex? Because neither past editions of Shadowrun nor real, actual implants such as replacement joints, retinal implants or hearing aids/cochlea replacements require such medication (in Deus Ex, it's a MacGuffin to make Adam Jensen super special).

At what Karma level would it be reasonable to have ANYTHING delta?

Delta is Shadowrun's Master Crafted. It would really depend on the character's connections and completed missions more than Karma levels. For instance, if you successfully and with a high enough Horizon Bonus rating complete Anarchy Syndicated, you have a very good case for Delta access. The same with the Battle of Manhattan.

Unlike D&D, Gear advancement in Shadowrun doesn't really correlate with Karma; it correlates with the connections, debts, favors and giri your character accumulates. When Damien Knight owes you one (or Johnny Spinrad), it doesn't matter if you have 10 Karma total; and when everybody you know lives in Redmond Touristville, you can have 5000 Karma and still will have a hard time even getting your mitts on Betaware.

Access to a Delta Clinic happens when it happens. rarely as early as we would like it to, of course, but there you go. Especially since NOW Delta Grade is no longer the holy grail of augmentations.

No, now we have Gammaware. To hell with the Greek alphabet! Though admittedly it does sound better than Epsilonware.

[Wakshaani]

Well, there're a couple more. Ares inherited Cross' Delta Clinic in Quebec City; Aztlan has one in Tenochtitlan and one in Panama City; and there's supposed to be an independent Delta Clinic in Vancouver (UO's actually is supposed to be in Africa). Sources can be provided if you want to.

And there are conflicting accounts on Horizon's Delta Clinic. In Corporate Enclaves, it was hinted that they have one on Santa Catalina Island (p. 28, Butch's Shadowtalk), then suddenly they do not have one but would really like to.

Also, what was the point of making Cyberware reliant on suppressant drugs all of a sudden, which it has never been before? Too much playing Deus Ex? Because neither past editions of Shadowrun nor real, actual implants such as replacement joints, retinal implants or hearing aids/cochlea replacements require such medication (in Deus Ex, it's a MacGuffin to make Adam Jensen super special).

Never played any of that series. I've seen a couple of comic strips (Pheremone Roofies!), and I've seen the guy's pic, but that's it. Immuno-Suppressants are cmentioned here and there (In the SR5 negative qualities, in fact) ... more background detail than anything, and a reason that Type O bioware's so important. I didn't mention Tenochitlan as I was thinking North America, but I *did* forget Quebec City. Possibly it's there and unmentioned or possible that Knight looted it to bring up his supplies a bit better. (And rub a lil' salt in the Cross wounds, natch.)

[hermit]

Immuno-Suppressants are cmentioned here and there (In the SR5 negative qualities, in fact) ... more background detail than anything, and a reason that Type O bioware's so important.

Yeah, but that's only necessary for living compounds made of human(esque) cells. The immune system goes crazy if someone else's cells pop up. It could care less about most ceramic compounds and titanium. Seriously, my mom basically has titanium bones (both hips, a shoulder, soon both knees are replacement joints) and doesn't take anything for them. My grandfather has two cochlea replacements, neither. And there is no reason why this should suddenly become necessary in the future, especially in 5E all of a sudden.

Possibly it's there and unmentioned or possible that Knight looted it to bring up his supplies a bit better. (And rub a lil' salt in the Cross wounds, natch.)

While possible, I'm unsure whether such a facility could even easily be moved, and reverse-engineering another one would help Ares actually understand the stuff there and make their ownership of it all the more complete. Just a thought though, they could well have moved it to Detroit so Knight can go visit it and shout "Mine!" any time he wants to.

[Sengir]

Also, what was the point of making Cyberware reliant on suppressant drugs all of a sudden, which it has never been before?

Uhm...


Zero (Cybertram, Doctor Bob’s Allergy Elixir)
Zero is the street name for a number of different immuno-suppressant drugs used to help the body adjust to new cyberware or reduce the effects of allergic reactions. Street docs commonly use small quantities of the drug to suppress the body’s immune system for a period of time, reducing the chances that the body will reject implanted ’ware. Habitual drug users use zero to lower their tolerance to other drugs.
For the duration of effect, zero users are no longer subject to penalties from allergies, though they still suffer damage for Severe allergies (see p. 81, SR4). Furthermore, users can treat their tolerance rating as though their addiction is one level lower than it actually is for the duration of the Effect. At the gamemaster’s discretion, characters that undergo surgery for implants may be dosed with zero
(Arsenal)

[hermit]

Zero is the street name for a number of different immuno-suppressant drugs used to help the body adjust to new cyberware or reduce the effects of allergic reactions.

Read dude. The stuff is taken during the implantation procedure. It is in your quote. You do not have to take it permanently, like in Deus Ex. This is not the same as taking suppressants because you had an organ transplant, which is how things work with cyberware according to ChromeFlesh (which would mean Cyberware should significantly lower resistance against pathogens and disease, btw).

[Sengir]

Read dude. The stuff is taken during the implantation procedure. It is in your quote. You do not have to take it permanently

First you're all "that's not how the immune system works", now your argument is that certainly the reaction to a foreign body will suddenly seize after a month or so?

[hermit]

First you're all "that's not how the immune system works", now your argument is that certainly the reaction to a foreign body will suddenly seize after a month or so?

No, I am pointing out that text says so, unlike ChromeFlesh which supposed cyberware needs permanent suppressants because that's Deus Ex' main plot (presumably). Personally, I think suppressants are not necessary for cyberware at all.

[Wakshaani]

Again. I have no idea what Deus Ex's plot is or anything about the game.

[hermit]

So ... why then the sudden, permanent need to take suppressants?

[Sendaz]

That is a very good question.

For an organ transplant you start out with the normal round of anti-rejection/immunosuppressant medications because it's a foreign organic object in the body.
Over time as the risk of rejection is reduced, the doses and number of anti-rejection drugs can be reduced, but you will need some immunosuppressant medications indefinitely.

However in the case of a prosthetic, many of these devices can go right in without a lot of the worries of rejection/reaction.
Even today a person with an artificial heart usually does not need to be on permanent immunosuppressants except in special circumstances, and that is more down to the patient than the device.

So I would say if you are doing bioware, yeah you probably would need continual immunosuppressants, unless it was specifically cultured to be an exact match, but should cyber really be held to this?

Maybe regular off the rack 'cheap' cyberware is made with materials the body might react to, but anything Alpha and better one would assume was made to be as hypoallergenic as possible for use in the body.

[hermit]

From personal experience with a variety of medical implants in relatives, I know suppressants are just not an issue with them. And you have to actively try (real hard) to get the immune system to react to any inorganic object. Other things may happen - the body has defense mechanisms against foreign inorganic objects - but an immune system response is not among them. And it's not like the immune system can actually do ,much about them anyway. It's role is to attack pathogens and organic invaders, and mutant cells if it manages to detect them. A slab of titanium, ceramics or whatever. it has no answer to.

And really, Wakshaani, why the Ares Picus smartlink if you don't know DXHR? Why the Purists, which is nearly the same name the anti-cyber policlub in DXHR has? That's hard to accept as coincidence. Did someone else write all this, maybe?

Also, nice one on the Dream Inducer. The Winter Market isn't exactly Gibson's most famous story, but I always wanted this piece of cyber. Thanks for that.

Damn, I should get going on the review.

[Sendaz]

And really, Wakshaani, why the Ares Picus smartlink if you don't know DXHR? Why the Purists, which is nearly the same name the anti-cyber policlub in DXHR has? That's hard to accept as coincidence. Did someone else write all this, maybe?

Parallel thinking does not necessarily preclude coincidence though, especially in writing. There have been a number of books down the ages that often cropped up around the same time having similar themes.

Also Picus was believed to be a son of Mars (the Roman counterpart to the Greek Ares) so the name is not so much a stretch.

Plus the term Purist is hardly limited to DXHR.

Damn, I should get going on the review.

YEAH!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

We are looking forward to it as they are often are as, if not more, entertaining than the source material itself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Fatum]

Personally, I think suppressants are not necessary for cyberware at all.

Well, for all I know, in RL anything other than bones and hips implanted requires suppressants, and even then it can be rejected. Take for instance the fad with implanting magnets under your fingertips. Hell, even the more serious piercings are rejected often enough.

[Sendaz]

Well there is always a chance of rejection with any implant, suppressants used or not.

My wife has a medical condition where she has abnormal scarring from any kind of surgery and a much higher rejection rate for anything inserted. Hell, when she was on a feeding tube running into her side to bypass a stricture in her bowels, her body literally dissolved the feeding tube which is not a normal reaction to say the least. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As for the implanted magnets, most cases of rejection have been shown to be cases where silicon coating over the magnets was ruptured, exposing the neodymium iron boron alloy which will corrode when exposed to the body.

So yes some materials can not go directly into a body without some kind of bio-inert coating like silicone or similar, but I don't think a immunosuppressant would have helped anyway as it was more about the body trying to break down and harvest the mineral content. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think you are going to see a lot more use of magnets, and not just for the fun little tricks like fingertips.
Medical techs are using it for magnetic retained dental prosthetic and similar devices.
Again these have to be properly encapsulated or risk corrosion of the rare earth magnets themselves.


Edit: smoothed out the sentences, think this flows better.

[Wakshaani]

And really, Wakshaani, why the Ares Picus smartlink if you don't know DXHR? Why the Purists, which is nearly the same name the anti-cyber policlub in DXHR has? That's hard to accept as coincidence. Did someone else write all this, maybe?

Nope. I'd wanted to use the name of Ares' spear for the Smartgun system (I'm a big believer of giving *everything* brand names, as you'll see in the Augmentation Bundle section), but the darn thing didn't have one that I could find. BUT, Picus was listed in some sections as Ares' spear-carrier (or as a woodpecker in others. I *badly* need to update my mythological books!) and that was close enough. The Smartgun makes you better, but you're the one who pulls the trigger. Let Picus 'carry your spear' so that you can be the one who thumps it home.

I don't know how it's used in Deus Ex, but they might have had a similar mindset/research moment?

"Purists" (or "purist") doesn't come up in my Word file for chapter 4, so I'm not sure where that one is. Doesn't pop up in chapter 5 either. Can you give me a page number, or was it just a general reference to the people who don't trust bodymods after the Nanopocalypse? I need to grab the dang PDF so I can check out the final form properly.

Also, nice one on the Dream Inducer. The Winter Market isn't exactly Gibson's most famous story, but I always wanted this piece of cyber. Thanks for that.

Damn, I should get going on the review.

Sadly, I've never actually read Gibson. I know, I know! I'd meant to for, like, ever, but when they had him write an X-Files eisode, I was, like, "Well, I've heard of the show, and I've heard of him, so I should give it a watch" ... and it was *awful*, and that kind of soured me on him. Which is insane! I mean, jeeze, I actually *like* Johnny Mnemonic (And the half-second Lori Petty cameo), and it's his short story blown into a full movie, but, the one X-Files thing? It was just *bad*.

When I do horror stuff, supposedly I write in a style akin to Lovecraft, despite having never *read* any Lovecraft. Other writers have aped his style, and I've read some of THEM, which carries over without getting the original's racism and whatnot I suppose.

Not sure.

Regardless, all the brand names come from digging around to match names with ideas. The Aztechnology bundle, for example, has 'Hummingbird' wired reflexes and "sharp claws" for brand names, the Mapsoft networks were named after explorers, and so on.

(Oh, and the Dream one's nice (and lordy would I like one to keep my thoughts held for later!), but the Visualizer is the one I'd personally kill for. To take images out of my HEAD and put them on paper in a way my crappy hands can't? Dude. DUDE.

[Wakshaani]

Alright. Purists is in ClusterF*cked. Not my chapter, so I dunno what's going on there. Once I have a physical book in hand, I can sit down and read what everyone else did. (I'm old. I just don't like the PDF format for *reading*. Referencing, sure, but reading? No, I need a *book* for that.)

[Fatum]

Again. I have no idea what Deus Ex's plot is or anything about the game.

Sadly, I've never actually read Gibson.
I write in a style akin to Lovecraft, despite having never *read* any Lovecraft.

And this, kids, is called "being aware of the cultural context".

Alright. Purists is in ClusterF*cked. Not my chapter, so I dunno what's going on there. Once I have a physical book in hand, I can sit down and read what everyone else did. (I'm old. I just don't like the PDF format for *reading*. Referencing, sure, but reading? No, I need a *book* for that.)

That's not "old", that's "ancient". "Antique", even.

[Wakshaani]

I know, I know, but books ... I have a love affair with books that just won't quit, and PDFs don't do it for me. Hell, I go to the family Encyclopedias that I inherited before hitting a search engine (And said search engine is never Google. Long story.)

For Shadowrun, I tend to source the sources and draw from Noir, or draw from modern times and extrapolate. Today's culture isn't that computers are mysterious boxes and that teh Japanese are gonna conquer America, nor do we have real aechoes of the American Indian movement or teh oil crisis that were still fresh in the 1st edition writers' heads. Today we have social media, militarization of police (despite crime having fallen to record lows), and Big Data. This resluts in a different approach to the material than there's been, while giving Respec Knuckles to the past.

One thing *I* want to do, but can't manage yet, is to change the main view of Shadowrunners from being elite teams of professionals that work for corps against other corps and bring back more of the 'punk' feel, where you're smaller people eyeballing giants and looking for a way to get some crumbs without drawing enough attention to be crushed. There needs to be a big push to having 'runners hired by other people, or even falling into jobs by accident and having to make due as best they can. That means winding back a LOT of work from SR 3 and 4, and that's a waterfall I don't know if I can swim up or not.

But it's a *personal* philosophy, and one I can set aside when needed.

[hermit]

Nope. I'd wanted to use the name of Ares' spear for the Smartgun system (I'm a big believer of giving *everything* brand names, as you'll see in the Augmentation Bundle section), but the darn thing didn't have one that I could find. BUT, Picus was listed in some sections as Ares' spear-carrier (or as a woodpecker in others. I *badly* need to update my mythological books!) and that was close enough. The Smartgun makes you better, but you're the one who pulls the trigger. Let Picus 'carry your spear' so that you can be the one who thumps it home.

Oh, I believe in that too, vigorously, which is why I'm happy about those names in the bundles (just ... the German ... just ... use English names? It's not like German producers habitually give their products German names anyway; little nitpick). Also, the names of the cyberbits for the Evo Atlantean seem to be missing, or are they unbranded on purpose?

I don't know how it's used in Deus Ex, but they might have had a similar mindset/research moment?

Less so, but they do play with the Icarus legend a bit.

I mean, jeeze, I actually *like* Johnny Mnemonic (And the half-second Lori Petty cameo), and it's his short story blown into a full movie, but, the one X-Files thing? It was just *bad*.

Starting with season 3, X-Files jumped several sharks and became crap to me. You should give his stories a try. Best, consider them situational and environmental descriptions, because that's what Gibson is seriously good at.

When I do horror stuff, supposedly I write in a style akin to Lovecraft, despite having never *read* any Lovecraft.

If you know your horror movies, half his stories will seem familiar to you because they have eventually been used as a premise for a movie. Very few of the mythos stories, though.

Oh, and the Dream one's nice (and lordy would I like one to keep my thoughts held for later!), but the Visualizer is the one I'd personally kill for. To take images out of my HEAD and put them on paper in a way my crappy hands can't? Dude. DUDE.

Well, that's just the instant death of the concept artist. But yeah, I'd love one of these too.

[Fatum]

One thing *I* want to do, but can't manage yet, is to change the main view of Shadowrunners from being elite teams of professionals that work for corps against other corps and bring back more of the 'punk' feel, where you're smaller people eyeballing giants and looking for a way to get some crumbs without drawing enough attention to be crushed. There needs to be a big push to having 'runners hired by other people, or even falling into jobs by accident and having to make due as best they can. That means winding back a LOT of work from SR 3 and 4, and that's a waterfall I don't know if I can swim up or not.

My runners mostly operate at that level, and in all fairness, I think this feel has more to do with your efforts as a GM than with the ruleset provided.
Although, of course, the focus of the books could be shifted a tad bit.

Oh, I believe in that too, vigorously, which is why I'm happy about those names in the bundles (just ... the German ... just ... use English names? It's not like German producers habitually give their products German names anyway; little nitpick). Also, the names of the cyberbits for the Evo Atlantean seem to be missing, or are they unbranded on purpose?

Do you think naming stuff in Russian or Japanese would produce better results? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hermit]

Do you think naming stuff in Russian or Japanese would produce better results?

I dunno. Japanese maybe. Russian probably not. IT's got even more grammar to confuse foreigners with.

My runners mostly operate at that level, and in all fairness, I think this feel has more to do with your efforts as a GM than with the ruleset provided.

Well, this would require Shadowrun to break with Gibson's corporate mercenaries as a premise and go more towards gangs or syndicates as a basic campaign - yes, Wakshaani, you really should read Gibson; it's like writing for CoCand never having touched a Lovecraft book. Not so much because he's the awesomest author ever, but because so many concepts of his are basic assumptions in Shadowrun, and would help understand the game you write for better.

[Fatum]

Well, this would require Shadowrun to break with Gibson's corporate mercenaries as a premise and go more towards gangs or syndicates as a basic campaign

Gibson had more than a few characters who worked for no one but themselves.
And gangs and syndicates have always been mentioned as movers and shakers in Shadowrun; it's just that the narrative focus shifted more and more towards the power play in the higher corporate echelons, rather than the nitty-gritty details of street living. This is why I loved Safehouses so dearly, and this is why I singled out the trauma damper description - instead of locking you in the sterile ivory tower of the corp living, it plunges you face-first into the realities the common men face.
This is also the feel I'm trying to capture when writing fan supplements like Jobs-Jobs-Jobs! or locale descriptions in Yakut Shuffle.

[Wakshaani]

Shoot. Where did I blow the German, Hermit? If you'd be so kind.