Lightsabers and Psylocke's Mind Dagger, endless possibilities in Hard Targets Options

[Uli]

...okay, let's make that two variations of one possibility, but they are nice! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hard Targets p. 190:
ADEPT SPELL
COST: 1.0 PP
The adept has learned to cast a single spell like a mage. You learn one spell for free when acquiring this power. The maximum Force of the spell is your Magic Rating, and the Drain is always physical, resisted with Body + Willpower. This ability otherwise follows the standard rules for spellcasting. The adept can take ranks in the Spellcasting skill and is required to take at least one rank to use this power. This power can only be taken once.

Hard Targets p. 192:
POWERBLADE
Type: P Range: Special
Duration: S DV: F – 2
Spellblades are a product of a failed line of research by MCT. Attempts to create a sustained damaging connection of energy failed to yield the desired results, but they resulted in a maintained extension of a spell, based on the formulas for Manabolt and Powerbolt. These spells could yield a field of energy roughly the same
space as a sword, maintained for as long as the caster could concentrate. The formula was altered to allow the caster to “hold” onto the spell at a point analogous to a grip, though the “blade” portion of the spell remained dangerous. It was found that these blades could parry one another and could cause repeated damage, strike after strike. As this did not meet the requirements for the project, it was abandoned, and the formulas sold through backchannels to recoup losses. One formula fell into the hands of wizgangs, where they quickly gained popularity for their showiness and the skill needed to maintain and wield one. Duels and motorcycle jousts with blazing energy have become the new fad among these Awakened youths. Shadowrunners and assassins with a talent for swordplay may appreciate the blades for their additional damage potential, as well as the ability to summon a blade anywhere without trying to smuggle it into a secure location. A Powerblade operates on the same principle as a Powerbolt or Powerball, affecting physical objects, capable of parrying and resisted by armor. A Manablade works like a Manabolt or Manaball, bypassing armor and capable of affecting spirits, but unable to parry physical attacks or damage objects. Note that weapon foci are able to parry Spellblades of either type due to their magically active nature. Spellblades can only be used by the person who casts them; they cannot be cast for anyone else to use. The range of the spell, then, is limited to the caster, though the spell can affect anything it touches once cast.
The damage for the weapons created by this spell equals to the Force plus the net hits rolled on the melee
weapon skill of the wielder’s choice. (In spite of the name, the Clubs or Blades skill works equally well). The
Accuracy of the Spellblade is equal to the Force of the spell, and the Reach is 1.

Take a qi focus and combine it with a sustaining focus - and voilà, a magical light sabre. Buy both at level 4 for 28000 Nuyen and 16 Karma during character creation and be the jedi adept you've always wanted to be.
And Mana Blade is of course Psylocke's dagger.

So who wants one? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[SpellBinder]

Go Mystic Adept and save yourself the cred for the Qi focus, or foci, for the Adept Spell power(s).

But one problem still remains, as far as I know: To what school do Powerblade & Manablade belong to? Combat or Manipulation?

[Uli]

That's a problem? Obviously Combat. It is designed to hurt and damage. In SR5, that's always Combat.

[SpellBinder]

But not limited exclusively to Combat. Elemental Aura, Elemental Wall, and Offensive Mana Barrier are all Manipulation spells, and can do damage (especially if you choose Fire or Electricity for your elements). Cast Fire Aura on a sword swinger and now he's Krog Mandoon.

It will also set the class of spell you need for a sustaining focus, and may be affected by other things like Mentor Spirits.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's a problem? Obviously Combat. It is designed to hurt and damage. In SR5, that's always Combat.

Alter Temperature is capable of causing massive hurt and damage and it is a Manipulation Spell.
As well, Spellbinder has posted a few others above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

Having to rely on Orgasm has hurt the ego of quite a few mages as well... Does that count?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Having to rely on Orgasm has hurt the ego of quite a few mages as well... Does that count?

Know at least one of those guys... He is a very disturbing magician indeed...

[Uli]

Good points. Especially the Offensive Mana Barrier (full of astral slurs) really blurs the line for Spell Sword, because it is non-elemental, too.

I'd still stick with Combat though.

[Sendaz]

Know at least one of those guys... He is a very disturbing magician indeed...

Yet he is still very popular with all of his partners. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yet he is still very popular with all of his partners. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Must be exhausting...

[Neraph]

Must be exhausting...

You know, it just occurred to me that you can Long Term Bind a spirit to sustain that spell...

[Sendaz]

Wouldn't an Ally do this just as well?

And if you are worried someone will target it to break the sustaining, you can always Dikote it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Iduno]

See, that's a pretty cool use for the power, especially with adept centering to negate any concentration penalties. I'm guessing most would waste it on an improved reflexes or improved invisibility ability.

One power point to become a seriously limited MysAd? Make it count, and make sure it has style. You probably also want a spell you'd overcast (physical drain either way) or easily ignore the drain of.

[tisoz]

But one problem still remains, as far as I know: To what school do Powerblade & Manablade belong to? Combat or Manipulation?

The description of how it was developed says - based on the formulas for Manabolt and Powerbolt, which are Combat spells, so I would go with Combat.

[Sengir]

Take a qi focus and combine it with a sustaining focus - and voilà, a magical light sabre. Buy both at level 4 for 28000 Nuyen and 16 Karma during character creation and be the jedi adept you've always wanted to be.

But no "these are not the droids you're looking for" since you only get one spell, sounds like you still have to go MA (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[JesterZero]

But one problem still remains, as far as I know: To what school do Powerblade & Manablade belong to? Combat or Manipulation?

Unless they've changed the spell design rules in 5th edition, it can't be Combat because it has a duration of Sustained. Last I heard, they hadn't even republished spell design rules in Street Grimoire, but if we go off of Ye Olde Street Magic:

Combat spells are always Instant in duration; they may not be Sustained or Permanent.

If it makes you feel better, the Manipulation category of spells impinging one what folks have perceived as Combat's turf is something of a time-honored tradition in Shadowrun. Examples could be multiplied.

[Uli]

One power point to become a seriously limited MysAd? Make it count, and make sure it has style. You probably also want a spell you'd overcast (physical drain either way) or easily ignore the drain of.

You cannot overcast with One Spell.

[SpellBinder]

Unless they've changed the spell design rules in 5th edition, it can't be Combat because it has a duration of Sustained. Last I heard, they hadn't even republished spell design rules in Street Grimoire, but if we go off of Ye Olde Street Magic:

If it makes you feel better, the Manipulation category of spells impinging one what folks have perceived as Combat's turf is something of a time-honored tradition in Shadowrun. Examples could be multiplied.

Well, Flamethrower and Lightning Bolt used to be Manipulation spells in SR3 before they became Combat spells in SR4.

And in one of the SR5 supplements there is a sustained Combat spell: Shadow Spells, page 16, Flame Burst. The old spell design rules of SR4 were trashed the moment SR5's magic was done, which is obvious if you pay any attention to the current Drain codes.

[Modular Man]

This sounds like something in desperate need for some errata.

The spell itself also sounds way awesome. I'll keep it in mind for the eventual transition to SR5.

[Cochise]

Well, Flamethrower and Lightning Bolt used to be Manipulation spells in SR3 before they became Combat spells in SR4.

Which technically represented a return to SR1/SR2 spell categorizations where "elemental" effects were part of Combat Spells as well. The most prominent there being "Hellfire" - SR2 combat spell - which technically was nothing other than what later was known as "Fireball" - an "elemental manipulation spell" in SR3 and a combat spell as of SR4 again.

And in one of the SR5 supplements there is a sustained Combat spell: Shadow Spells, page 16, Flame Burst. The old spell design rules of SR4 were trashed the moment SR5's magic was done, which is obvious if you pay any attention to the current Drain codes.

Why am I not surprised? It's bit like the Slow Death spell in SR3 I guess ... A combat spell with a Duration of "instant" and no requirement of sustaining but could be dispelled like a sustained spell and be aborted by the caster in a free action just as if it was sustained.

[JesterZero]

Well, Flamethrower and Lightning Bolt used to be Manipulation spells in SR3 before they became Combat spells in SR4.

And in one of the SR5 supplements there is a sustained Combat spell: Shadow Spells, page 16, Flame Burst. The old spell design rules of SR4 were trashed the moment SR5's magic was done, which is obvious if you pay any attention to the current Drain codes.

Huh. That gets a tad hostile at the end there. Oh well.

First, if the examples under discussion are using a comparison of 4th and 5th editions as a frame of reference, bringing in 3rd edition doesn't really prove anything. If I point out that all the Combat spells from the 3rd edition BBB and Magic in the Shadows are also all Instant duration, does that somehow bolster my case?

Second, Flame Burst is a good find. It certainly changes this from a perfectionistic argument to a principled one. So I'm happy to concede that as far as I'm aware, all Combat spells in 4th and 5th edition are Instant duration...except Flame Burst.

Third and last, saying that "the old spell design rules of SR4 were trashed the moment SR5's magic was done" is a bit hyperbolic. Again, we need to distinguish between the perfect and the principle. Obviously there were design changes between editions that we'd expect to have downstream effects (Drain codes are a good example of this, which you mention). But given the broad areas of overlap and similarity (the categories themselves, the common breakdown of Type / Range / Damage / Duration / Drain, Combat's division of Direct / Indirect, Detection's division of Active / Passive, Illusion's divisions or Realistic / Obvious and Single-Sense / Multi-Sense, Manipulation's divisions of Mental / Physical / Environmental, even the amount of material in Street Grimoire that was copy/pasted from Street Magic, etc., etc.) we can generally expect the principles to hold.

If the rules were truly "trashed" between editions, then we'd be having much weirder arguments...like how Heal should be a Combat spell since it directly affects the condition monitor...or something like that.

You originally asked if the Spellblade spell is a better fit for the Combat or Manipulation category. I'm simply pointing out that:

• Combat spells typically don't have a Duration of Sustained in 4th or 5th edition.
• In 4th edition, referenced because it is the most similar to 5th edition, a Combat spell could ONLY have a duration of Instant.
• 5th edition, as you've cited, apparently does have an example of a Sustained Combat spell. Granting that, what's more likely? That this is the second-ever Combat spell of this edition to break the mold? Or that it's a better fit for Manipulation?

If you still want to classify it as Combat for any or no reason, knock yourself out. I'm not going to come to your house and tell you that you're doing it wrong.

[tisoz]

I will qualify my input with the caveat that I have not looked at 5th edition at all.

In past editions I am acquainted with, it is suggested one find a similar spell (or observe a spell affect) for inspiration, then modify it to produce the effect one desires. That is why I suggested it follow the Combat spells from which it is stated it originated. It was pointed out that there is a sustained Combat spell; is it a variation of an existing instant Combat spell? In any case, it seems the simple way of designing a spell to alter its duration from instant to sustained.

If it is a Manipulation spell, is it similar to an existing Manipulation spell that can be altered by changing a single part?

In my opinion, many spells got classified as something other than Combat spells, and in turn Manipulation spells, in an attempt to balance the different types of spells so one class of spells did not become overpowering for totem modifiers or Aspected Magicians.

[Neraph]

This sounds like something in desperate need for some errata.

Exactly why I still play 4A.

[Uli]

Why do even the topics with funny intentions get dragged into edition complaining? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) This is why we can't have nice things (and I remember to post in other forums).

[Medicineman]

Why do even the topics with funny intentions get dragged into edition complaining? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) This is why we can't have nice things (and I remember to post in other forums).

You mean nice things like Erratta ?

with a nice Dance
Medicineman