HMHVV Revamped and Streamlined, Reworking the various strains and taxonomy Options

[JanessaVR]

I confess, I’m not a fan of the Infected. I think the whole concept of “Infected Rights” is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of in the entire history of Shadowrun and as far as I’m concerned a cure for HMHVV was found long ago; it’s called fire – apply lots of it to the Infected patient until the infection disappears. This cure has a 100% success rate, and should be applied globally as soon as possible. Granting monsters that want to eat you civil rights? Why not just shoot yourself in the head? It’s quicker. Apparently it’s supposed to be a not-too-subtle allegory for [insert oppressed group X here], but it’s a terrible one, as I don’t know any members of [insert oppressed group X here] that actually kill and eat people (something that would, in fact, fully justify discrimination against them).

That said, they do make good (and nasty) villains in the game, but I think they could use a little streamlining, especially since Strain II (Ghilani Moneriviridae) rarely gets any press. So we’ll just drop that one and concentrate on revamped versions of Strains I and III (now renamed Strain II), as follows.


Strain I (Ghilani Vrykolakivididae)

Metatype______Becomes
Human...............Vampire
Elf......................Banshee
Dwarf.................Goblin
Ork....................Grendel
Troll...................Dzoo-noo-qua
Sasquatch..........Jabberwock


Strain Ib

Metatype______Becomes
Human...............Nosferatu


Strain II (Ghilani Wichtiviridae)

Metatype______Becomes
Any....................Ghoul


Strain IIb

Metatype______Becomes
Elf......................Harvester


All of these should be Dual-Natured creatures (so as to more easily keep these filthy things outside with astral wards). SR5 has, with the exception of one or two of the Infected, already taken this approach and I very much approve of it.

The end result here is fairly clean and simple. There are now just two major strains, one which has variable effects depending on the victim’s metatype, and another which always has one effect regardless of the victim’s metatype. There are also two “variant strains” that create rarer (and even more terrifying) monsters, but if you don’t want Nosferatu or Harvesters in your campaign world, you can just drop these.

This also frees up the Wendigo to be not just another plague carrier or run-of-the-mill monster, but the terrifying creature of Native American legend that it ought to be. Really, go look up the legends of the Wendigo. It’s a fantastically terrifying creature and relegating it to the status of being just a furry, Infected ork is such a waste it’s practically a crime. With this fix in place, you can introduce the Wendigo as either a magical creature or a spirit, in all its horrifying glory, which is a much better use for it in the campaign world.

One last thing that needs to be addressed – ghoul infection needs to be dialed down. I’m scarcely the first person to comment that, as written, even George Romero must be impressed at the Ghoul Apocalypse that would already have happened long ago with creatures this infectious. Currently, consulting SR4 Running Wild, it has a Power of 8. I’m thinking that cutting that in half to a Power of 4 would be a better alternative. Does anyone already have any house rules on reducing HMHVV III infection potency to avert the Ghoul Apocalypse?

[Wounded Ronin]

So, my one comment about the transmission is that like you I think transmission rates are way too high.

In real life, aggregate stats of transmission for BBPs from single exposures are much lower. For example the generalized aggregate probability that is officially cited for HIV infection from sexual intercourse with a contagious individual is 1 in 250.

Transmission probabilities for Hep C are way higher, but in general, if it were my game, I would have infection probability be like 1%-5% per hit or something like that, which could be quickly rolled on a software dice roller or on two ten sided dice.

So it's not impossible for transmission to occur but it's unlikely any given time, which is much more realistic.

I confess, I’m not a fan of the Infected. I think the whole concept of “Infected Rights” is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of in the entire history of Shadowrun and as far as I’m concerned a cure for HMHVV was found long ago; it’s called fire – apply lots of it to the Infected patient until the infection disappears. This cure has a 100% success rate, and should be applied globally as soon as possible. Granting monsters that want to eat you civil rights? Why not just shoot yourself in the head? It’s quicker. Apparently it’s supposed to be a not-too-subtle allegory for [insert oppressed group X here], but it’s a terrible one, as I don’t know any members of [insert oppressed group X here] that actually kill and eat people (something that would, in fact, fully justify discrimination against them).

That said, they do make good (and nasty) villains in the game, but I think they could use a little streamlining, especially since Strain II (Ghilani Moneriviridae) rarely gets any press. So we’ll just drop that one and concentrate on revamped versions of Strains I and III (now renamed Strain II), as follows.


Strain I (Ghilani Vrykolakivididae)

Metatype______Becomes
Human...............Vampire
Elf......................Banshee
Dwarf.................Goblin
Ork....................Grendel
Troll...................Dzoo-noo-qua
Sasquatch..........Jabberwock


Strain Ib

Metatype______Becomes
Human...............Nosferatu


Strain II (Ghilani Wichtiviridae)

Metatype______Becomes
Any....................Ghoul


Strain IIb

Metatype______Becomes
Elf......................Harvester


All of these should be Dual-Natured creatures (so as to more easily keep these filthy things outside with astral wards). SR5 has, with the exception of one or two of the Infected, already taken this approach and I very much approve of it.

The end result here is fairly clean and simple. There are now just two major strains, one which has variable effects depending on the victim’s metatype, and another which always has one effect regardless of the victim’s metatype. There are also two “variant strains” that create rarer (and even more terrifying) monsters, but if you don’t want Nosferatu or Harvesters in your campaign world, you can just drop these.

This also frees up the Wendigo to be not just another plague carrier or run-of-the-mill monster, but the terrifying creature of Native American legend that it ought to be. Really, go look up the legends of the Wendigo. It’s a fantastically terrifying creature and relegating it to the status of being just a furry, Infected ork is such a waste it’s practically a crime. With this fix in place, you can introduce the Wendigo as either a magical creature or a spirit, in all its horrifying glory, which is a much better use for it in the campaign world.

One last thing that needs to be addressed – ghoul infection needs to be dialed down. I’m scarcely the first person to comment that, as written, even George Romero must be impressed at the Ghoul Apocalypse that would already have happened long ago with creatures this infectious. Currently, consulting SR4 Running Wild, it has a Power of 8. I’m thinking that cutting that in half to a Power of 4 would be a better alternative. Does anyone already have any house rules on reducing HMHVV III infection potency to avert the Ghoul Apocalypse?

[EKBT81]

Apparently it’s supposed to be a not-too-subtle allegory for [insert oppressed group X here], but it’s a terrible one, as I don’t know any members of [insert oppressed group X here] that actually kill and eat people (something that would, in fact, fully justify discrimination against them).

Not to mention that Shadowrun already has several stand-ins for oppressed groups like (to varying degrees) the various metaraces (since day 1) and SURGElings (since 3E/YotC), so IMO the Infected are rather superfluous in that narrative role.

[Mantis]

I could have sworn the guy who did the infected rules in Running Wild already admitted this was a bit of a mistake and posted his changes to the various infection rates. Damned if I can find it though. Maybe he'll see this and link it again.

[JanessaVR]

So, my one comment about the transmission is that like you I think transmission rates are way too high.

In real life, aggregate stats of transmission for BBPs from single exposures are much lower. For example the generalized aggregate probability that is officially cited for HIV infection from sexual intercourse with a contagious individual is 1 in 250.

Transmission probabilities for Hep C are way higher, but in general, if it were my game, I would have infection probability be like 1%-5% per hit or something like that, which could be quickly rolled on a software dice roller or on two ten sided dice.

So it's not impossible for transmission to occur but it's unlikely any given time, which is much more realistic.

So...maybe a Power of 2, or perhaps even 1? I mean, I suppose I could just use percentile dice, but I was hoping to come up with something that could be integrated into the existing Toxin/Disease Resistance Test.

[Sendaz]

I could have sworn the guy who did the infected rules in Running Wild already admitted this was a bit of a mistake and posted his changes to the various infection rates. Damned if I can find it though. Maybe he'll see this and link it again.

Think you are looking for THIS

[Mantis]

Yeah, that seems like the discussion and Patrick provides links in his sig to the actual errata. Thanks Sendaz.

[Wounded Ronin]

So...maybe a Power of 2, or perhaps even 1? I mean, I suppose I could just use percentile dice, but I was hoping to come up with something that could be integrated into the existing Toxin/Disease Resistance Test.

In that case I would simply use the lowest Power possible. I see it as something that is creepy and might make the character want to take a shower afterwards, but like getting a splash of blood to the face...transmission probability is low.

[Sendaz]

From Patrick Goodman's errata the biggest thing was changing the vector a bit so simple exposure wasn't going to get ya.
The change in power and penetration still makes it a threat if something goes chomping on you, but simple splatter is no longer the same kind of Big Bad.

From Running Wild errata by Patrick:
HMHVV III entry:
● Change Vector to Injection
● Change Penetration to -3
● Change Power to 6

[JanessaVR]

Sounds like the following might do it then:

Vector: Injection
Penetration: -3
Power: 2

It can happen, but isn't anywhere near as guaranteed with just a little nip or scratch. A sustained Prophylaxis spell would all but ensure you were immune to getting infected by this strain.

[JanessaVR]

Building on the above, this goes back to the first very first thread I started on Dumpshock years ago here, with the taxonomy discussion on pages 2 and 3.

I’m going to propose what I think is an updated/expanded taxonomy for HMHVV, building on what was proposed in that thread. I’m not a doctor, however, but I’m using reference work from a gamer in the above thread who was a doctor or at least in medical school, IIRC from past discussions. One of the suggestions in that thread was to spin off HMHVV III as it’s own virus – I’m going to go with that for this classification attempt.

Addition to the Baltimore Classification
VIII: Magically Active Viruses


HMHVV-1

Isolated in 2034 by Dr. Emil Harz and Dr. Carla Greenbaum

Group:_____Group VIII (Magically Active Viruses)
Order:_____Vrykolakivirales
Family:____Vrykolakiviridae
Genus:____Ghilanivirus
Species:___Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus 1
Notes: Responsible for the creation of Vampires, Banshees, Goblins, Grendels, Dzoo-No-Qua and Jabberwocks


HMHVV-2

Isolated in 2046 by Dr. Wilhelm Bruckner and Dr.Günther Langer

Group:_____Group VIII (Magically Active Viruses)
Order:_____Vrykolakivirales
Family:____Vrykolakiviridae
Genus:____Ghilanivirus
Species:___Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus 2
Notes: Responsible for the creation of Nosferatu


HMHGV-1

Isolated in 2051 by Dr. Jeffrey Krieger

Group:_____Group VIII (Magically Active Viruses)
Order:_____Wichtivirales
Family:____Wichtiviridae
Genus:____Ghilanivirus
Species:___Human-Metahuman Ghoul Virus 1
Notes: Responsible for the creation of Ghouls


HMHGV -2

Isolated in 2069 by Dr. John Russell Jarka and Dr. Michelle Criscione

Group:_____Group VIII (Magically Active Viruses)
Order:_____Wichtivirales
Family:____Wichtiviridae
Genus:____Ghilanivirus
Species:___Human-Metahuman Ghoul Virus 2
Notes: Responsible for the creation of Harvesters


I’m willing to bet money that my amateur classification attempt here has errors, but if anyone out there has any greater expertise in this area, please post any corrections here. This has managed to interest me enough that if someone was willing to research this a bit further and come up with some more definitive/accurate terminology, I’d be willing to send some cash their way. PM me if interested.

[Cochise]

There seem to be some things off with your list:

With the original taxonomy we had:

HMHVV-I:

Human -> Vampire
Ork -> Wendigo (not Grendel, see HMHVV-II)
Troll -> Dzoo-No-Qua
Dwarf -> Goblin
Elf -> Banshee


HMHVV-Ia [a.k.a. Bruckner-Langer]:

Human -> Nosferatu
Ork ->Mutaqua

HMHVV-II:

Human -> Loup Garou
Ork -> Grendel
Troll -> Formoraîg
Dwarf -> Gnawer
Elf -> Harvester

Sasquatch -> Bandersnatch

HMHVV-III [a.k.a. Krieger-Strain]:

All Metahumans -> Ghoul

Unspecified, non-infecting variant of HMHVV as part of their genome:

Chupacabra

Uninfected carriers of HMHVV-II:

Drop Bears.


Legend:
Introduced in SR1 + SR2 and kept in SR3
Introduced in SR4
Introduced in SR2 IIRC but with no clear association to a particular strain. Strain-II association came with SR4

Can't quite remember whether Chupacabras came earlier than SR3

[Sendaz]

Chupacabras were mentioned in 2nd Ed Cyberpirates pg 133-134 as cropping up in Madagascar with one guy claiming they tested positive on the old Harz-Greenbaum test for HMHVV though later on in 3rd ed critters they toned it down to how their tissue samples show a pattern similar to HMHVV but did not carry the disease.

[JanessaVR]

There seem to be some things off with your list:

I don't believe you read my first post. You know, the parts about revamping and streamlining HMHVV?

[Cochise]

I don't believe you read my first post. You know, the parts about revamping and streamlining HMHVV?

I certainly read it, but somehow I must have missed the part where "streamlining" and "revamping" with the particular subtitle of "Recognizing that the Infected really are *monsters*, not people" entails dropping / replacing particular infections like the Wendigo that even has some "lore" attached to it. All I got from that was: I want the "monsters" instead of playable characters back, this is my list.

If you really wanted some form of streamlining you would have cut the whole Strain IIa and IIb thing in the first place and taken just the standard HMHVV-I list and then added the Ghoul thing as separate strain. The benefit would then have been: All fine and dandy with established canon, rules, etc.

[JanessaVR]

I certainly read it, but somehow I must have missed the part where "streamlining" and "revamping" with the particular subtitle of "Recognizing that the Infected really are *monsters*, not people" entails dropping / replacing particular infections like the Wendigo that even has some "lore" attached to it. All I got from that was: I want the "monsters" instead of playable characters back, this is my list.

Hmmm...decent point. I don't know if I can tweak the thread description below the title. I think I'm stuck with it.
EDIT: Nevermind, changed it by editing the original post. That said, yes, I prefer them as monsters not as PCs.

If you really wanted some form of streamlining you would have cut the whole Strain IIa and IIb thing in the first place and taken just the standard HMHVV-I list and then added the Ghoul thing as separate strain. The benefit would then have been: All fine and dandy with established canon, rules, etc.

Well, that's mostly what I did just do in my latest post above. This is a work in progress.

[Sendaz]

If we are doing the shuffle, could we consider ditching Jabberwock and keep Bandersnatch, even if you have to slap them into an oddball category similar to Chupacabra since their version of the HMHVV is a bit wonky/different?

Bandies go all the way back to the original Paranormal Animals of NA and while Jabbies probably outgun them, Bandies still made good monsters

[Mantis]

I've always preferred them as monsters over playable characters too. Maybe it comes from playing D&D when I was younger, but for me, the undead (yes I know they aren't undead in SR) were something to avoid and/or kill, not something to become. I haven't had many players who were really up to the challenge of playing a character who is literally becoming a monster and focusing on how they either try to cling to their humanity or slowly lose it and become a thing to be feared and destroyed. Telling that story is the only reason I see for playing one of these things and once you've done it there likely isn't any reason to do it again. Of course you could just tell that story with an NPC and not feel bad when the rest of the party decides to off the character, which means there isn't, in my mind anyway, any good reason to make them playable.
A little off the main thrust of the topic but I thought I'd drop my 2 cents.

[JanessaVR]

If we are doing the shuffle, could we consider ditching Jabberwock and keep Bandersnatch, even if you have to slap them into an oddball category similar to Chupacabra since their version of the HMHVV is a bit wonky/different?

Bandies go all the way back to the original Paranormal Animals of NA and while Jabbies probably outgun them, Bandies still made good monsters

The reason I was leery of the Bandersnatch was their reproduction - their breeding rate is somewhat equal to the level of the ultra-infectiousness of ghouls in canon. That is, in either case the world would soon be overrun with them. That said, I'm already tweaking ghoul infection here to be more reasonable. We could ditch the Jabberwock (I'm keeping my Vorpal Blade, though) and keep the Bandersnatch if we dialed that down.

[JanessaVR]

This actually does make me think...if we accept that these are separate magical viruses (as opposed to variants of just one virus), that there are multiple "magical transformation viruses" loose in the Sixth World...then that opens the doors to introducing some further magical viruses. I'm going to prowl though some old sourcebooks - starting with GURPS Technomancer - and see if anything else might fit well into the Sixth World.

It might make for an interesting new Critters bestiary - on the microbiological level, but no less terrifying for that.

[Cochise]

This actually does make me think...if we accept that these are separate magical viruses (as opposed to variants of just one virus), that there are multiple "magical transformation viruses" loose in the Sixth World...then that opens the doors to introducing some further magical viruses. I'm going to prowl though some old sourcebooks - starting with GURPS Technomancer - and see if anything else might fit well into the Sixth World.

And with this the idea of "streamlining" is pretty much canned ... not that it was actually a clear cut goal in the first place. For reference: We officially had 4 strains with a list of resulting transformations. Your approach still has 4 strains and you simply shuffled some of the transformations while dropping some that you "don't like" (for whatever reason), but face it "less" != "streamlined".

Now you're considering separate viruses instead of variants. But what's the actual difference in that? Ultimately just the name of the virus ... the associated critters pretty much are the same (and as critters they are still "monsters" btw.)

Before you go on, might I suggest that you answer yourself the following questions and possibly explain your answers to everybody:

1. Are you really looking at the right places for solving your perceived problems with HMHVV? Both the original subtitle as well as some of your answers suggest that your real problems lie with how the infected are treated fluff wise (way too "soft" as in "not monsters") and their treatment on crunch level (absurd infection rules and rates vs. "unnecessary" rules for player characters).
2. Is the list of current HMHVV infections really too long and complicated in order to warrant or require an attempt of "streamlining"?
3. Under the stipulation that we can agree that some of the created phenotypes don't quite match with the rest of the group - like the Dzoo-No-Qua who originally was only of bestial intelligence but got revamped in SR4 with the Sapience trait as part of their revamp / streamlining to match the rest of the group - which ones are they and what makes them not a good match in the official list? In terms of a streamlined and consistent taxonomy I'd be particularly interested in your reasoning behind the replacing of Wendigo with Grendel on the primary HMHVV-I list, since the Grendel in your list is the non-sapient, non-essence draining "odd ball" among otherwise "vampiric" transformations of metahumans (and sapient critters in case of the Sasquatch -> Jabberwock transformation).
4. To which virus / virus strain should the critters from your previous answer be associated as part of the (further) revamp attempt?
5. What do you intend to do with the critters that you dropped from your revamped list(s)? Are they completely removed from existence or are they just some other form of "monster" that happens to exist naturally born or as a result of a different virus?

[JanessaVR]

Well, the short answer is that, yes, HMHVV has struck me as sprawling a bit too large and is trying to accomplish too much in the campaign world with just one virus (and I wonder if the canon taxonomy is correct). However, this discussion here has gotten me thinking about paravirology in the Sixth World. Yes, I think the list of HMHVV critters needs to be trimmed down (especially since we mainly just hear about vampires and ghouls), but might there be room for other, completely different paraviruses, ones that do totally different things?

For instance, the Earth of GURPS Technomancer has a sort of magical version of AIDS, where it makes one more susceptible to magic (if infected with it, you take penalties to any rolls to resist spells targeting you).

[JanessaVR]

And with this the idea of "streamlining" is pretty much canned ... not that it was actually a clear cut goal in the first place. For reference: We officially had 4 strains with a list of resulting transformations. Your approach still has 4 strains and you simply shuffled some of the transformations while dropping some that you "don't like" (for whatever reason), but face it "less" != "streamlined".

Now you're considering separate viruses instead of variants. But what's the actual difference in that? Ultimately just the name of the virus ... the associated critters pretty much are the same (and as critters they are still "monsters" btw.)

Before you go on, might I suggest that you answer yourself the following questions and possibly explain your answers to everybody:

1. Are you really looking at the right places for solving your perceived problems with HMHVV? Both the original subtitle as well as some of your answers suggest that your real problems lie with how the infected are treated fluff wise (way too "soft" as in "not monsters") and their treatment on crunch level (absurd infection rules and rates vs. "unnecessary" rules for player characters).
2. Is the list of current HMHVV infections really too long and complicated in order to warrant or require an attempt of "streamlining"?
3. Under the stipulation that we can agree that some of the created phenotypes don't quite match with the rest of the group - like the Dzoo-No-Qua who originally was only of bestial intelligence but got revamped in SR4 with the Sapience trait as part of their revamp / streamlining to match the rest of the group - which ones are they and what makes them not a good match in the official list? In terms of a streamlined and consistent taxonomy I'd be particularly interested in your reasoning behind the replacing of Wendigo with Grendel on the primary HMHVV-I list, since the Grendel in your list is the non-sapient, non-essence draining "odd ball" among otherwise "vampiric" transformations of metahumans (and sapient critters in case of the Sasquatch -> Jabberwock transformation).
4. To which virus / virus strain should the critters from your previous answer be associated as part of the (further) revamp attempt?
5. What do you intend to do with the critters that you dropped from your revamped list(s)? Are they completely removed from existence or are they just some other form of "monster" that happens to exist naturally born or as a result of a different virus?

To clarify a bit further (now that I have the rest of the day off):

Yes, Issue #1 is all this ridiculous, touchy-feely, politically correct nonsense about making nice with the monsters that want to eat your face off, when the obvious solution is to just toss all the ones you can catch into a big bonfire and be rid of the threat. 5th Edition seems to be doing a better job about this than 4th Edition, however. Well, sort of, sometimes. They should be present in the campaign setting as monsters, not as PCs, and not as this week’s hippie/liberal cause célèbre to champion the “rights” of these poor, oppressed creatures who just want to kill and eat people.


Issue #2 is correct viral taxonomy. As I referenced above in the link to my first thread here a few years ago, that issue was brought to my attention then and I’m not entirely certain that it’s been correctly classified in the later SR4 and now SR5 books. In fact, I highly suspect it has not been, from the basic research on this I’ve done over the last few days.


Issue #3 is…sprawl, for lack of a better term. The list is a bit too large, IMHO. A quick look at reference sources give me this listing of HMHVV critters:

Bandersnatch
Banshee
Chupacabra
Drop Bear
Dzoo-Noo-Qua
Fomóraig
Ghoul
Gnawer
Goblin
Grendel
Harvester
Jabberwock
Loup-Garou
Mutaqua
Nosferatu
Vampire
Wendigo

That’s quite a few, and – to me at least – it seems a bit too much for all of those creatures to have come from just one virus. Now, we could just channel the wedding priest from Spaceballs and say “All right, that’s it! The short, short version!” and go with this:

HMHVV (Ghilani Vrykolakivididae): Turns you into a vampire, regardless of your metatype.
HMHGV (Ghilani Wichtiviridae): Turns you into a ghoul, regardless of your metatype.

Now that’s really streamlined. We’ve gone from 17 creatures to just 2. But is that too much of a cut? Did we sacrifice some critters that might the make the setting richer by their inclusion? For instance, the Harvester sounds like a pretty scary monster. Heck, the picture of one on p. 60 of Running Wild was enough to convince me that they ought to be included (those claws look positively…Gigeresque). My question was, where to best fit them in? Well, trying to work within the framework of my first post, and considering the above picture in Running Wild, a variant ghoul strain seemed the best solution I could immediately think of. But, you have a point – I’m adding to to the complexity I’m complaining about with this approach.

Another good point is that we probably don’t need any more feral creatures. I mean, we already have street punks aplenty, so do we really need any more mindless monsters? I don’t think so. So, if I include the Harvester, it should probably get bumped up to at least the intelligence level of ghouls – most of them have their mental faculties (relatively) intact, though they have some feral members as well. Monsters that can think are better foes than just mindless thugs (again, we already have plenty of those in the Sixth World), so this should be stressed as a design goal.

So, at this point, I’m seeing two approaches I can take:

One, the short, short version above. It has the advantage of being simple to understand and implement, and consists of just 2 monsters. Two viruses, with only one effect per virus – no exceptions, no returns.

Two, the variant effect version. I keep HMHVV narrowed down to / split into just 2 viruses, but both of these viruses have a variable effect, depending on the infected victim’s metatype.

HMHVV produces blood drinkers:

• Humans become Vampires
• Elves become Nosferatu (“She’s Italian?!")
• Dwarves become Goblins
• Orks become [if we could think of a new name, the canon Shadowrun version of that white, furry "Wendigo" could go here]
• Trolls become Dzoo-Noo-Qua
• Sasquatches become Jabberwocks

HMHGV produces flesh eaters:

• Humans become Ghouls
• Elves become Harvesters
• Dwarves become Gnawers
• Orks become Grendels
• Trolls become Fomóraig
• Sasquatches become Bandersnatches

In both cases, and regardless of their canon descriptions, all of these are to be considered intelligent monsters, not just feral predators obsessed with attacking anyone for food. (Just who becomes what when infected can be up for debate, take this as just a quick first pass.) Also, regardless of their canon descriptions, those infected with HMHVV subsist on blood and those infected with HMHGV subsist on flesh.

Still more than the short, short version, but it’s at least down to 12 instead of 17 and now consists of 2 distinct viruses, one for blood drinkers and one for flesh eaters, which is at least better than trying to keep cramming all of these monsters into 1 virus with variant strains.


Now, the main reason I post things like this on Dumpshock, as opposed to just making a new entry in our gaming group’s house rules document, is that you guys challenge me. Something that at first sounds good on paper may actually need some considerable improvement. In the end, after it’s been kicked around and reworked, the end result is better. So…thanks for your contributions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What I’m thinking of at this point is working on a brand new post entitled “Paravirology of the Sixth World.” Headlining that post would be a revamped HMHVV, probably split into two viruses, one for vampire creatures and another for ghoul creatures, and then a selection of other magical viruses that have effects other than turning people into monsters. As you can see in this thread, this is all still a work in progress (but getting better, I think).

P.S. With regards to your question about the Grendel in place of the Wendigo, I just grabbed the next best substitution I could easily locate, which was “right next door” on the HMHVV II listing. And as for creatures dropped from the list, the simplest solution is to just retcon them out of existence. That said, either approach above also frees up the Banshee to be used in its original form from Irish mythology (along with the Wendigo, as the Native American mythology version is also much better than Shadowrun’s version).

[Sendaz]

Well just a point to ponder:

Yes, Issue #1 is all this ridiculous, touchy-feely, politically correct nonsense about making nice with the monsters that want to eat your face off, when the obvious solution is to just toss all the ones you can catch into a big bonfire and be rid of the threat. 5th Edition seems to be doing a better job about this than 4th Edition, however. Well, sort of, sometimes. They should be present in the campaign setting as monsters, not as PCs, and not as this week’s hippie/liberal cause célèbre to champion the “rights” of these poor, oppressed creatures who just want to kill and eat people.

Part of the reason I see as to why there is so much touchy feeling emotions toward the Infected is that by definition the 'Infected' are just that... Infected with a virus (granted a magical one) that gives them what most will agree are rather objectionable compulsions and needs.
However they are still the same person for the most part, but now they have to deal with a whole cartload of changes and urgings.
Over time, many do snap and go down the route of 'I am a monster', but again it was the original psyche gradually growing to revel in their change or being warped by the horror of their condition.

Compare this to a Bug Inhabited form, in almost no case is the end result considered still the original host, rather the bug has devoured whatever essence/intellect was there and replaced it with it's own.
It may have access to skills and memories of the host, but the quintessential person, or soul if you will,is gone.

This is why a person might still sympathize with a vampire or even a ghoul whereas most wouldn't think twice about squashing a Good Merge Bug once it's true nature is revealed even though it may look completely normal and even act like the original.

As long as this distinction exists, you are going to face some faction of humanity defending or at least acknowledging Infected rights, because they still see them as Metahuman.
Indeed, some may even see a bit of nobility in the Infected struggle to maintain some semblance of their humanity despite their condition. Nick Knight anyone?

In both cases, and regardless of their canon descriptions, all of these are to be considered intelligent monsters, not just feral predators obsessed with attacking anyone for food. (Just who becomes what when infected can be up for debate, take this as just a quick first pass.) Also, regardless of their canon descriptions, those infected with HMHVV subsist on blood and those infected with HMHGV subsist on flesh.

Even here we see an echo of this blurring of the lines between the two states of being, because you want them to be intelligent monsters, but the question is whose intelligence?
The original host's or that of something else?

If you say the original host's intellect, someone like their defense lawyer or rights activist is going to say yes it's terrible, but really it's not their fault because it's a disease/virus/fill in the blank that has taken control of their life and makes them act this way, but deep down they are still decent people who just have unusual cravings/needs and Poor Impulse Control.

But if it's something else rolling around inside that head, then suddenly a lot of those rights and protections get rescinded because it's no longer Metahuman by most people no matter what it may look like.
Some folk may still try to hang onto a loved one, but sooner or later they will come to the realization it's NOT the same person anymore.

What they are of course remains for debate.

Edit: snipped some stuff that would have gone into the tl;dr column anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You may just want to consider treating the Infection more like Inhabitation in that the original personality is gone and changed the structure of the host, though remnants of their memories/skills linger and you have something else that now stands where the original host once stood.
Of course this is a major change to canon when you have guys like Red and others who clearly still retain a good chunk of their humanity though they struggle with dark urges of course.

You could go with a more CFD like route where instead of instant changeover, it is the gradual rewriting by the virus so as time goes by the Infected is doomed to become the monster he was meant to be.
This is not so much different than it is now, but could provide a mechanic where the Infected becomes more monstrous as it progresses.

Now you get a monster that has been changed through something like HMHVV that has infected the host and overwritten the individual it was before, whether swiftly or over a passage of time, making it at best a twisted copy of the original host.

[Sengir]

Yes, Issue #1 is all this ridiculous, touchy-feely, politically correct nonsense about making nice with the monsters that want to eat your face off, when the obvious solution is to just toss all the ones you can catch into a big bonfire and be rid of the threat. 5th Edition seems to be doing a better job about this than 4th Edition, however. Well, sort of, sometimes. They should be present in the campaign setting as monsters, not as PCs, and not as this week’s hippie/liberal cause célèbre to champion the “rights” of these poor, oppressed creatures who just want to kill and eat people.

The only Infected rights which ever got any traction were ghoul rights. Because ghouls don't kill and eat people, they only need a slice of locally sourced unclaimed body every now and then.