I confess, I’m not a fan of the Infected. I think the whole concept of “Infected Rights” is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of in the entire history of Shadowrun and as far as I’m concerned a cure for HMHVV was found long ago; it’s called fire – apply lots of it to the Infected patient until the infection disappears. This cure has a 100% success rate, and should be applied globally as soon as possible. Granting monsters that want to eat you civil rights? Why not just shoot yourself in the head? It’s quicker. Apparently it’s supposed to be a not-too-subtle allegory for [insert oppressed group X here], but it’s a terrible one, as I don’t know any members of [insert oppressed group X here] that actually kill and eat people (something that would, in fact, fully justify discrimination against them).

That said, they do make good (and nasty) villains in the game, but I think they could use a little streamlining, especially since Strain II (Ghilani Moneriviridae) rarely gets any press. So we’ll just drop that one and concentrate on revamped versions of Strains I and III (now renamed Strain II), as follows.


Strain I (Ghilani Vrykolakivididae)

Metatype______Becomes
Human...............Vampire
Elf......................Banshee
Dwarf.................Goblin
Ork....................Grendel
Troll...................Dzoo-noo-qua
Sasquatch..........Jabberwock


Strain Ib

Metatype______Becomes
Human...............Nosferatu


Strain II (Ghilani Wichtiviridae)

Metatype______Becomes
Any....................Ghoul


Strain IIb

Metatype______Becomes
Elf......................Harvester


All of these should be Dual-Natured creatures (so as to more easily keep these filthy things outside with astral wards). SR5 has, with the exception of one or two of the Infected, already taken this approach and I very much approve of it.

The end result here is fairly clean and simple. There are now just two major strains, one which has variable effects depending on the victim’s metatype, and another which always has one effect regardless of the victim’s metatype. There are also two “variant strains” that create rarer (and even more terrifying) monsters, but if you don’t want Nosferatu or Harvesters in your campaign world, you can just drop these.

This also frees up the Wendigo to be not just another plague carrier or run-of-the-mill monster, but the terrifying creature of Native American legend that it ought to be. Really, go look up the legends of the Wendigo. It’s a fantastically terrifying creature and relegating it to the status of being just a furry, Infected ork is such a waste it’s practically a crime. With this fix in place, you can introduce the Wendigo as either a magical creature or a spirit, in all its horrifying glory, which is a much better use for it in the campaign world.

One last thing that needs to be addressed – ghoul infection needs to be dialed down. I’m scarcely the first person to comment that, as written, even George Romero must be impressed at the Ghoul Apocalypse that would already have happened long ago with creatures this infectious. Currently, consulting SR4 Running Wild, it has a Power of 8. I’m thinking that cutting that in half to a Power of 4 would be a better alternative. Does anyone already have any house rules on reducing HMHVV III infection potency to avert the Ghoul Apocalypse?

So, my one comment about the transmission is that like you I think transmission rates are way too high.

In real life, aggregate stats of transmission for BBPs from single exposures are much lower. For example the generalized aggregate probability that is officially cited for HIV infection from sexual intercourse with a contagious individual is 1 in 250.

Transmission probabilities for Hep C are way higher, but in general, if it were my game, I would have infection probability be like 1%-5% per hit or something like that, which could be quickly rolled on a software dice roller or on two ten sided dice.

So it's not impossible for transmission to occur but it's unlikely any given time, which is much more realistic.

Not to mention that Shadowrun already has several stand-ins for oppressed groups like (to varying degrees) the various metaraces (since day 1) and SURGElings (since 3E/YotC), so IMO the Infected are rather superfluous in that narrative role.

I could have sworn the guy who did the infected rules in Running Wild already admitted this was a bit of a mistake and posted his changes to the various infection rates. Damned if I can find it though. Maybe he'll see this and link it again.

So...maybe a Power of 2, or perhaps even 1? I mean, I suppose I could just use percentile dice, but I was hoping to come up with something that could be integrated into the existing Toxin/Disease Resistance Test.

Think you are looking for THIS

Yeah, that seems like the discussion and Patrick provides links in his sig to the actual errata. Thanks Sendaz.

In that case I would simply use the lowest Power possible. I see it as something that is creepy and might make the character want to take a shower afterwards, but like getting a splash of blood to the face...transmission probability is low.

From Patrick Goodman's errata the biggest thing was changing the vector a bit so simple exposure wasn't going to get ya.
The change in power and penetration still makes it a threat if something goes chomping on you, but simple splatter is no longer the same kind of Big Bad.

From Running Wild errata by Patrick:
HMHVV III entry:
● Change Vector to Injection
● Change Penetration to -3
● Change Power to 6

Sounds like the following might do it then:

Vector: Injection
Penetration: -3
Power: 2

It can happen, but isn't anywhere near as guaranteed with just a little nip or scratch. A sustained Prophylaxis spell would all but ensure you were immune to getting infected by this strain.

Building on the above, this goes back to the first very first thread I started on Dumpshock years ago here, with the taxonomy discussion on pages 2 and 3.

I’m going to propose what I think is an updated/expanded taxonomy for HMHVV, building on what was proposed in that thread. I’m not a doctor, however, but I’m using reference work from a gamer in the above thread who was a doctor or at least in medical school, IIRC from past discussions. One of the suggestions in that thread was to spin off HMHVV III as it’s own virus – I’m going to go with that for this classification attempt.

Addition to the Baltimore Classification
VIII: Magically Active Viruses


HMHVV-1

Isolated in 2034 by Dr. Emil Harz and Dr. Carla Greenbaum

Group:_____Group VIII (Magically Active Viruses)
Order:_____Vrykolakivirales
Family:____Vrykolakiviridae
Genus:____Ghilanivirus
Species:___Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus 1
Notes: Responsible for the creation of Vampires, Banshees, Goblins, Grendels, Dzoo-No-Qua and Jabberwocks


HMHVV-2

Isolated in 2046 by Dr. Wilhelm Bruckner and Dr.Günther Langer

Group:_____Group VIII (Magically Active Viruses)
Order:_____Vrykolakivirales
Family:____Vrykolakiviridae
Genus:____Ghilanivirus
Species:___Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus 2
Notes: Responsible for the creation of Nosferatu


HMHGV-1

Isolated in 2051 by Dr. Jeffrey Krieger

Group:_____Group VIII (Magically Active Viruses)
Order:_____Wichtivirales
Family:____Wichtiviridae
Genus:____Ghilanivirus
Species:___Human-Metahuman Ghoul Virus 1
Notes: Responsible for the creation of Ghouls


HMHGV -2

Isolated in 2069 by Dr. John Russell Jarka and Dr. Michelle Criscione

Group:_____Group VIII (Magically Active Viruses)
Order:_____Wichtivirales
Family:____Wichtiviridae
Genus:____Ghilanivirus
Species:___Human-Metahuman Ghoul Virus 2
Notes: Responsible for the creation of Harvesters


I’m willing to bet money that my amateur classification attempt here has errors, but if anyone out there has any greater expertise in this area, please post any corrections here. This has managed to interest me enough that if someone was willing to research this a bit further and come up with some more definitive/accurate terminology, I’d be willing to send some cash their way. PM me if interested.

There seem to be some things off with your list:

With the original taxonomy we had:

HMHVV-I:

Human -> Vampire
Ork -> Wendigo (not Grendel, see HMHVV-II)
Troll -> Dzoo-No-Qua
Dwarf -> Goblin
Elf -> Banshee


HMHVV-Ia [a.k.a. Bruckner-Langer]:

Human -> Nosferatu
Ork ->Mutaqua

HMHVV-II:

Human -> Loup Garou
Ork -> Grendel
Troll -> Formoraîg
Dwarf -> Gnawer
Elf -> Harvester

Sasquatch -> Bandersnatch

HMHVV-III [a.k.a. Krieger-Strain]:

All Metahumans -> Ghoul

Unspecified, non-infecting variant of HMHVV as part of their genome:

Chupacabra

Uninfected carriers of HMHVV-II:

Drop Bears.


Legend:
Introduced in SR1 + SR2 and kept in SR3
Introduced in SR4
Introduced in SR2 IIRC but with no clear association to a particular strain. Strain-II association came with SR4

Can't quite remember whether Chupacabras came earlier than SR3

Chupacabras were mentioned in 2nd Ed Cyberpirates pg 133-134 as cropping up in Madagascar with one guy claiming they tested positive on the old Harz-Greenbaum test for HMHVV though later on in 3rd ed critters they toned it down to how their tissue samples show a pattern similar to HMHVV but did not carry the disease.

I don't believe you read my first post. You know, the parts about revamping and streamlining HMHVV?

I certainly read it, but somehow I must have missed the part where "streamlining" and "revamping" with the particular subtitle of "Recognizing that the Infected really are *monsters*, not people" entails dropping / replacing particular infections like the Wendigo that even has some "lore" attached to it. All I got from that was: I want the "monsters" instead of playable characters back, this is my list.

If you really wanted some form of streamlining you would have cut the whole Strain IIa and IIb thing in the first place and taken just the standard HMHVV-I list and then added the Ghoul thing as separate strain. The benefit would then have been: All fine and dandy with established canon, rules, etc.

Hmmm...decent point. I don't know if I can tweak the thread description below the title. I think I'm stuck with it.
EDIT: Nevermind, changed it by editing the original post. That said, yes, I prefer them as monsters not as PCs.



Well, that's mostly what I did just do in my latest post above. This is a work in progress.

If we are doing the shuffle, could we consider ditching Jabberwock and keep Bandersnatch, even if you have to slap them into an oddball category similar to Chupacabra since their version of the HMHVV is a bit wonky/different?

Bandies go all the way back to the original Paranormal Animals of NA and while Jabbies probably outgun them, Bandies still made good monsters

I've always preferred them as monsters over playable characters too. Maybe it comes from playing D&D when I was younger, but for me, the undead (yes I know they aren't undead in SR) were something to avoid and/or kill, not something to become. I haven't had many players who were really up to the challenge of playing a character who is literally becoming a monster and focusing on how they either try to cling to their humanity or slowly lose it and become a thing to be feared and destroyed. Telling that story is the only reason I see for playing one of these things and once you've done it there likely isn't any reason to do it again. Of course you could just tell that story with an NPC and not feel bad when the rest of the party decides to off the character, which means there isn't, in my mind anyway, any good reason to make them playable.
A little off the main thrust of the topic but I thought I'd drop my 2 cents.

The reason I was leery of the Bandersnatch was their reproduction - their breeding rate is somewhat equal to the level of the ultra-infectiousness of ghouls in canon. That is, in either case the world would soon be overrun with them. That said, I'm already tweaking ghoul infection here to be more reasonable. We could ditch the Jabberwock (I'm keeping my Vorpal Blade, though) and keep the Bandersnatch if we dialed that down.

This actually does make me think...if we accept that these are separate magical viruses (as opposed to variants of just one virus), that there are multiple "magical transformation viruses" loose in the Sixth World...then that opens the doors to introducing some further magical viruses. I'm going to prowl though some old sourcebooks - starting with GURPS Technomancer - and see if anything else might fit well into the Sixth World.

It might make for an interesting new Critters bestiary - on the microbiological level, but no less terrifying for that.

And with this the idea of "streamlining" is pretty much canned ... not that it was actually a clear cut goal in the first place. For reference: We officially had 4 strains with a list of resulting transformations. Your approach still has 4 strains and you simply shuffled some of the transformations while dropping some that you "don't like" (for whatever reason), but face it "less" != "streamlined".

Now you're considering separate viruses instead of variants. But what's the actual difference in that? Ultimately just the name of the virus ... the associated critters pretty much are the same (and as critters they are still "monsters" btw.)

Before you go on, might I suggest that you answer yourself the following questions and possibly explain your answers to everybody:

1. Are you really looking at the right places for solving your perceived problems with HMHVV? Both the original subtitle as well as some of your answers suggest that your real problems lie with how the infected are treated fluff wise (way too "soft" as in "not monsters") and their treatment on crunch level (absurd infection rules and rates vs. "unnecessary" rules for player characters).
2. Is the list of current HMHVV infections really too long and complicated in order to warrant or require an attempt of "streamlining"?
3. Under the stipulation that we can agree that some of the created phenotypes don't quite match with the rest of the group - like the Dzoo-No-Qua who originally was only of bestial intelligence but got revamped in SR4 with the Sapience trait as part of their revamp / streamlining to match the rest of the group - which ones are they and what makes them not a good match in the official list? In terms of a streamlined and consistent taxonomy I'd be particularly interested in your reasoning behind the replacing of Wendigo with Grendel on the primary HMHVV-I list, since the Grendel in your list is the non-sapient, non-essence draining "odd ball" among otherwise "vampiric" transformations of metahumans (and sapient critters in case of the Sasquatch -> Jabberwock transformation).
4. To which virus / virus strain should the critters from your previous answer be associated as part of the (further) revamp attempt?
5. What do you intend to do with the critters that you dropped from your revamped list(s)? Are they completely removed from existence or are they just some other form of "monster" that happens to exist naturally born or as a result of a different virus?

Well, the short answer is that, yes, HMHVV has struck me as sprawling a bit too large and is trying to accomplish too much in the campaign world with just one virus (and I wonder if the canon taxonomy is correct). However, this discussion here has gotten me thinking about paravirology in the Sixth World. Yes, I think the list of HMHVV critters needs to be trimmed down (especially since we mainly just hear about vampires and ghouls), but might there be room for other, completely different paraviruses, ones that do totally different things?

For instance, the Earth of GURPS Technomancer has a sort of magical version of AIDS, where it makes one more susceptible to magic (if infected with it, you take penalties to any rolls to resist spells targeting you).

To clarify a bit further (now that I have the rest of the day off):

Yes, Issue #1 is all this ridiculous, touchy-feely, politically correct nonsense about making nice with the monsters that want to eat your face off, when the obvious solution is to just toss all the ones you can catch into a big bonfire and be rid of the threat. 5th Edition seems to be doing a better job about this than 4th Edition, however. Well, sort of, sometimes. They should be present in the campaign setting as monsters, not as PCs, and not as this week’s hippie/liberal cause célèbre to champion the “rights” of these poor, oppressed creatures who just want to kill and eat people.


Issue #2 is correct viral taxonomy. As I referenced above in the link to my first thread here a few years ago, that issue was brought to my attention then and I’m not entirely certain that it’s been correctly classified in the later SR4 and now SR5 books. In fact, I highly suspect it has not been, from the basic research on this I’ve done over the last few days.


Issue #3 is…sprawl, for lack of a better term. The list is a bit too large, IMHO. A quick look at reference sources give me this listing of HMHVV critters:

Bandersnatch
Banshee
Chupacabra
Drop Bear
Dzoo-Noo-Qua
Fomóraig
Ghoul
Gnawer
Goblin
Grendel
Harvester
Jabberwock
Loup-Garou
Mutaqua
Nosferatu
Vampire
Wendigo

That’s quite a few, and – to me at least – it seems a bit too much for all of those creatures to have come from just one virus. Now, we could just channel the wedding priest from Spaceballs and say “All right, that’s it! The short, short version!” and go with this:

HMHVV (Ghilani Vrykolakivididae): Turns you into a vampire, regardless of your metatype.
HMHGV (Ghilani Wichtiviridae): Turns you into a ghoul, regardless of your metatype.

Now that’s really streamlined. We’ve gone from 17 creatures to just 2. But is that too much of a cut? Did we sacrifice some critters that might the make the setting richer by their inclusion? For instance, the Harvester sounds like a pretty scary monster. Heck, the picture of one on p. 60 of Running Wild was enough to convince me that they ought to be included (those claws look positively…Gigeresque). My question was, where to best fit them in? Well, trying to work within the framework of my first post, and considering the above picture in Running Wild, a variant ghoul strain seemed the best solution I could immediately think of. But, you have a point – I’m adding to to the complexity I’m complaining about with this approach.

Another good point is that we probably don’t need any more feral creatures. I mean, we already have street punks aplenty, so do we really need any more mindless monsters? I don’t think so. So, if I include the Harvester, it should probably get bumped up to at least the intelligence level of ghouls – most of them have their mental faculties (relatively) intact, though they have some feral members as well. Monsters that can think are better foes than just mindless thugs (again, we already have plenty of those in the Sixth World), so this should be stressed as a design goal.

So, at this point, I’m seeing two approaches I can take:

One, the short, short version above. It has the advantage of being simple to understand and implement, and consists of just 2 monsters. Two viruses, with only one effect per virus – no exceptions, no returns.

Two, the variant effect version. I keep HMHVV narrowed down to / split into just 2 viruses, but both of these viruses have a variable effect, depending on the infected victim’s metatype.

HMHVV produces blood drinkers:

• Humans become Vampires
• Elves become Nosferatu (“She’s Italian?!")
• Dwarves become Goblins
• Orks become [if we could think of a new name, the canon Shadowrun version of that white, furry "Wendigo" could go here]
• Trolls become Dzoo-Noo-Qua
• Sasquatches become Jabberwocks

HMHGV produces flesh eaters:

• Humans become Ghouls
• Elves become Harvesters
• Dwarves become Gnawers
• Orks become Grendels
• Trolls become Fomóraig
• Sasquatches become Bandersnatches

In both cases, and regardless of their canon descriptions, all of these are to be considered intelligent monsters, not just feral predators obsessed with attacking anyone for food. (Just who becomes what when infected can be up for debate, take this as just a quick first pass.) Also, regardless of their canon descriptions, those infected with HMHVV subsist on blood and those infected with HMHGV subsist on flesh.

Still more than the short, short version, but it’s at least down to 12 instead of 17 and now consists of 2 distinct viruses, one for blood drinkers and one for flesh eaters, which is at least better than trying to keep cramming all of these monsters into 1 virus with variant strains.


Now, the main reason I post things like this on Dumpshock, as opposed to just making a new entry in our gaming group’s house rules document, is that you guys challenge me. Something that at first sounds good on paper may actually need some considerable improvement. In the end, after it’s been kicked around and reworked, the end result is better. So…thanks for your contributions.

What I’m thinking of at this point is working on a brand new post entitled “Paravirology of the Sixth World.” Headlining that post would be a revamped HMHVV, probably split into two viruses, one for vampire creatures and another for ghoul creatures, and then a selection of other magical viruses that have effects other than turning people into monsters. As you can see in this thread, this is all still a work in progress (but getting better, I think).

P.S. With regards to your question about the Grendel in place of the Wendigo, I just grabbed the next best substitution I could easily locate, which was “right next door” on the HMHVV II listing. And as for creatures dropped from the list, the simplest solution is to just retcon them out of existence. That said, either approach above also frees up the Banshee to be used in its original form from Irish mythology (along with the Wendigo, as the Native American mythology version is also much better than Shadowrun’s version).

Well just a point to ponder:



Part of the reason I see as to why there is so much touchy feeling emotions toward the Infected is that by definition the 'Infected' are just that... Infected with a virus (granted a magical one) that gives them what most will agree are rather objectionable compulsions and needs.
However they are still the same person for the most part, but now they have to deal with a whole cartload of changes and urgings.
Over time, many do snap and go down the route of 'I am a monster', but again it was the original psyche gradually growing to revel in their change or being warped by the horror of their condition.

Compare this to a Bug Inhabited form, in almost no case is the end result considered still the original host, rather the bug has devoured whatever essence/intellect was there and replaced it with it's own.
It may have access to skills and memories of the host, but the quintessential person, or soul if you will,is gone.

This is why a person might still sympathize with a vampire or even a ghoul whereas most wouldn't think twice about squashing a Good Merge Bug once it's true nature is revealed even though it may look completely normal and even act like the original.

As long as this distinction exists, you are going to face some faction of humanity defending or at least acknowledging Infected rights, because they still see them as Metahuman.
Indeed, some may even see a bit of nobility in the Infected struggle to maintain some semblance of their humanity despite their condition. Nick Knight anyone?

Even here we see an echo of this blurring of the lines between the two states of being, because you want them to be intelligent monsters, but the question is whose intelligence?
The original host's or that of something else?

If you say the original host's intellect, someone like their defense lawyer or rights activist is going to say yes it's terrible, but really it's not their fault because it's a disease/virus/fill in the blank that has taken control of their life and makes them act this way, but deep down they are still decent people who just have unusual cravings/needs and Poor Impulse Control.

But if it's something else rolling around inside that head, then suddenly a lot of those rights and protections get rescinded because it's no longer Metahuman by most people no matter what it may look like.
Some folk may still try to hang onto a loved one, but sooner or later they will come to the realization it's NOT the same person anymore.

What they are of course remains for debate.

Edit: snipped some stuff that would have gone into the tl;dr column anyway.

You may just want to consider treating the Infection more like Inhabitation in that the original personality is gone and changed the structure of the host, though remnants of their memories/skills linger and you have something else that now stands where the original host once stood.
Of course this is a major change to canon when you have guys like Red and others who clearly still retain a good chunk of their humanity though they struggle with dark urges of course.

You could go with a more CFD like route where instead of instant changeover, it is the gradual rewriting by the virus so as time goes by the Infected is doomed to become the monster he was meant to be.
This is not so much different than it is now, but could provide a mechanic where the Infected becomes more monstrous as it progresses.

Now you get a monster that has been changed through something like HMHVV that has infected the host and overwritten the individual it was before, whether swiftly or over a passage of time, making it at best a twisted copy of the original host.

The only Infected rights which ever got any traction were ghoul rights. Because ghouls don't kill and eat people, they only need a slice of locally sourced unclaimed body every now and then.

Well, it's more like they kill and eat people depending on the writer. This is definitely an area of SR canon that seems to change depending on who's writing it.

This is actually a rather intriguing idea. Especially if I’m already looking to make some changes with the Infected. To a certain extent, I already see HMHVV/HMHGV as being at least a little like rabies. It may take a while after getting bitten, but in the end, Old Yeller becomes a monster. Or, even if it’s a more insidious change and takes longer, after getting your brain rewired to be a predator of humans and eventually eating enough of them, how long would it be before you started looking at them as nothing more than the meat section at the grocery store?

Treating the Infected as hosts essentially Inhabited by the magical virus would actually clear up the whole morality of how to treat them. As you say, no one thinks twice about squashing someone’s body that’s now Inhabited by an Invae spirit, so why treat the Infected any different if their situation is basically the same?

That ghouls don't need to drain Essence via consumption of live human tissue has been canon since the 1st Edition BBB. The more feral ones may of course still attack humans when driven by hunger, just like other hungry animals. But unlike vampires, nosferatu, or the things you don't want to call "wendigos" (btw, I like your reasoning on that, it's just that I tend to be a canon traditionalist), ghouls are not intrinsically required to harm living people. They get by just fine on John and Jane Does from the morgue.

Again, I've seen this written both ways. They've been portrayed as "just normal folks who had the misfortune to become Infected and are doing the best they can to cope" or as "card-carrying monsters who revel in their perceived place on top of the food chain, to whom (meta)humans are nothing more than cattle."

For the last type, Asamando comes to mind first (though I've seen the ghouls-as-monsters approach in multiple SR sourcebooks and novels throughout the years). That particular nation knowingly deals with slavers who literally round up people by the truckload and sell them to the ghouls for food (see Feral Cities and Dawn of the Artifacts). I've repeatedly said that place needs to be hit with nukes followed by FAB III before their numbers grow any larger.

If you didn't like Asmondo before, then you might want to see pg 140-141 in Storm Front.
Now keep in mind Storm Front is the transition piece between SR4 and SR5 so keep or discard as you prefer seeing as this thread is focusing on SR4.

Turns out Asmondo has about double the number of ghouls as officially reported, which came to light during a UN investigation looking into claims of agreements between Asmondo and certain corporations who were basically shipping their criminals to them in trade for access to the nation's resources.

Since then the Queen has collapsed and her daughter has taken the throne with little news getting out since then beyond Horizon backed spin doctoring.

This has left a lot of people on edge about the place already and can only imagine that a lot of behind the scene power pulling has kept the place from becoming a crater.

Now one can argue that what they did was monstrous, though the corps supplying the live bodies are in that same category.
But again they are in the unfortunate position that they do require metahuman meat to survive and they were taking in a lot more ghoul refugees than anyone suspected, probably so at to not cause a panic with their neighbors.
They do not actively drain essence, but they do gather it from the flesh they consume and animal meat just doesn't cut it.
And even clone bodies won't work since they lack that quintessential spark by themselves which you would have thought would work, but that is the fun nature of essence.

So yes they should have been a bit more upfront, but given the world's attitude toward them one can see why they doctored the books a bit.

Tie this in with Storm Front talking about Infected appetites on the rise, so an Infected doesn't need more flesh/blood/essence to survive but their 'belly' or Thirst is always aching for more.

So you can use this to back the view of Infected as growing monsters if you are wanting to rewrite how Infected play in your world.


Next we might look at possible mechanics to reinforce the Old Yeller decent into Darkness path.

Sounds like I need to pick up Storm Front - it might be one of the few SR4 sourcebooks I don't already own.

But actual "descent into monsterdom" mechanics are another good idea. SR doesn't have character alignments, nor does it have quite the selection of Mental Disadvantages from GURPS, or even the Humanity meter/score from the World of Darkness. I'll have to ponder how to implement this one...

EDIT:

A new negative Quality might do it for (-10 / -20 / -30) KP. A newly Infected person starts at level 0. At each month, the Infected must make a Willpower roll to avoid sliding down the slippery slope and gaining another level, and eventually, they've lost all remaining humanity, leaving only the monster. A cunning, intelligent monster, but a monster nonetheless.

It's one idea, at least.

Now one point in the Infected's favour is shown in the novel Crimson [which I did highly enjoy though that may be my inner fangboi showing through (^ v---v ^) - do not read if you want to keep the view of all Infected being monsters ] is about how hybrid form bugs still count as metahuman enough that draining or eating them can fulfill an Infected dietary requirement as they have the vampire Red drink up one to feed and the ghouls have been eating bug steaks as they call them which seems to work alright.

So while you are working up the Monster angle, don't forget the possibilities of playing one side off against the other, because a good slayer makes use of all the tools available to them, including the enemy of my enemy.
Which by the way does not have to make them your friend, as per Maxim 29


Edit:

The negative quality is not a bad idea, however it leaves a lot vague as to it's effect along the way.

I dislike the Essence Addiction Table because a) the addiction tables are already really hit or miss and b) ultimately addictions are supposed to damage you, which makes sense for the Drain victim to become addicted and burn out, but doesn't make as much sense for the Drainer where you actually should be powering up from all that feeding so it's a bit contradictory.
It has potential but needs tweaking.

Did have one idea tying the Infected relative power to their descent so as they grow into their powers, so to did they lose more of their humanity.

Will have to dig around to see where I left the notes and dust it off.

Actually, I did read that book recently. I could tell it was supposed to paint the Infected in a more positive light, but it actually had quite the opposite effect on me - I came away from it more convinced than ever that they're monsters. Red (and the ghouls) do a whole lot of trying to justify their natures and continued existences, but I was not convinced.

Again you are missing the point, the existence of feral ghouls was never up to debate. The point is that some Infected must kill or harm people, and others don't. HMHVV I Infected, no matter how civilised and pacifist they still are after the transformation, have no other way of surviving than to drain Essence by consuming tissue of live sapient beings. SR vampires cannot get by with blood packs or draining animals alone -- no matter how hard they try, those are the cards they have been dealt.

HMHVV III (as well as Type II) on the other hand does not cause Essence Loss, therefore ghouls can subside entirely on metahuman carrion and have no need to harm living beings. Which is why ghoul rights are a thing, while vampire rights are restricted to oddball countries like Amazonia
Yes, feral ghouls will attack everything that looks like prey when they're hungry, that's why they are called "feral". Name one at least partially carnivorous species where this does not apply.


And Asmondo is a crapsack country even if there was not a single ghoul there. Monarchy, forced labour, eugenetic ideology...

No, I get your point, I just don't fully agree with it. Yes, canon HMHVV II and III don't have to kill people, but plenty of them do, and I remain convinced that it's a slippery slope that leads to one destination; eat enough people and eventually you'll just start seeing them as nothing more than the meat aisle in the grocery store. Also, some authors take my side and some take yours - my point there is that their treatment in canon has been anything but consistent, as far how much sympathy we're supposed to have for them, and which side in this debate is right.

In some cultures, people eat dogs.

At the same time, people in those cultures can also keep dogs as pets.

If a man eats dogs, that doesn't mean he can't keep his favorite dogs as pets and love them instead of eating them. (He might eat them after they die of natural causes, I suppose, but not kill them himself.)

Or, he might eat dogs he's indifferent to, but simply not eat his pet dogs, because he has a different relationship with his pets.

That's why I don't really buy the idea that ghouls are inevitably going to be on some slippery slope to becoming total monsters on the basis of their dietary proclivities. There are real life counter-examples in dog eating cultures.

Not quite a straight comparison. The man in question above hasn't had has genes magically rewired into being a predator for dogs, and to require eating dogs specifically to stay alive. If I were that guy's dog, I'd be worried.

And since Sendaz brought up the recent novel Crimson, here's an excerpt from that:

“These past few years...it’s like the hunger has become sharper. We don’t need to eat more, but the craving for flesh has gotten so much more insistent. Mouths salivate easy, and the temptation to go hunting for real human meat is always there, always at the back of your mind or right behind your eyelids when you go to sleep.”

.....

He paused. “I…I want to chew them up. I want to eat them while they’re still alive. I want to feel it, and I want them to feel it.” He turned his eyes on me with more soul than you’d expect from cyber replacements. “Don’t you ever feel like that? Don’t you just want to tear into them, let it drip around and flood over you?”

Even if they try to hold out, the Beast lives within them, constantly pushing - it'll win eventually.

But that's ok. Like I said, there's a cure – it's called fire, and it has a 100% success rate in curing HMHVV.

So it's like cats and mice: http://cute-n-tiny.com/wp-content/uploads/...ice-400x300.jpg

You can still have a situation where if both animals are socialized they can get along.

Besides, in the world of Shadowrun, there is almost always some enemy or opposition that the players will engage with deadly force. So the ghoul should always have access to snacks that don't interfere with team cohesion.

That (admittedly adorable) cat has access to food sources other than mice. It has not had it's genes rewired and it's body remade by a magical virus into a super-predator with a magical compulsion to eat mice specifically if it wants to stay alive.

A more apt comparison would be Cats rewired to eat other Cats. Mice are not, nor have they ever been, Cats.

I don't know, might not affect cohesion within the party, but it seems several GMs get their collective knickers in a twist when the Rigger is boosting an occasional extra Americar to sell on the side or the party in general loots the fallen to help make ends meet because the table doesn't pay out enough for runs.

Now just imagine the fit they are going to throw when one of the team eats the driver of that jacked car or hauls one of the dead security guards back to base for snacks later to boot.

And that is not even touching Rep and Notoriety ratings, because even if the team can keep their yaps shut, people are going to notice that the final body counts don't always match up after that team's runs.
Though to be fair, even a single body can last a ghoul a fair while if he parses it out, though he will probably find himself nibbling between meals.
Moral of the story: Let a friend hold the key to the long pig locker so you don't find yourself snacking in the middle of the day.
Remember eating those eyes just goes straight to your thighs.

On the plus side, things like a fridge/freezer is considered Amenities under increasing lifestyle of the vehicle in Rigger 5 and doesn't cost Mod Slots to install, so you can keep something reasonably sized in the Van though you do need to learn how to fold the body just right.
Making it a Hidden compartment to avoid embarrassments passing through checkpoints does cost Mod slots but can be well worth it.

Sure, there are ghouls who get a kick out of hunting live prey. But just because there are humans willing to murder people to put food on their table (colloquially known as "shadowrunners" ) you wouldn't advocate killing all of mankind with fire, so why would those ghouls make the idea of ghoul rights absolutely frivolous?




Cats are obligate carnivores and their brains are naturally wired to chase everything that bears a passing resemblance to a small rodent in size and movement (i.e. any small item moving along the floor). And they do this regardless of access to food, cats hunt stuff because it's stuff and they are cats

For truly creative feeding options, remember that Essence Drain and Dietary Requirement are not necessarily linked. Vampires drain Essence by drinking the victim's blood and they need to consume metahuman blood, which makes it prudent to combine the two, but not necessary. A vampire could also drain blood from a merrow for Essence, fulfill his Dietary Requirement on metahuman blood packs, and drink cow blood for any caloric uptake exceeding what he got from the previous two...

A fridge uses power; why not just make jerky? I would have a ghoul character called The Buccaneer, maybe perfect for a smugglers game.



Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccaneer

mmmmmmm.. jerky ^_^

Wait, that might not work.

Ghouls are only supposed to be able to eat raw meat.

While Jerky is not cooked in the classic sense, it is not exactly raw or unprocessed anymore since you usually add salts and spices before applying a low steady heat to dehydrate the meat.

So in a sense it would probably fall under the Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials category in the same way you have Bricks, leather and similar.

But does that mean Jerky is a no go as meeting their requirement?
Would it wreck the trace essence within meat so they would still need to eat something else to get their Essence part or could Jerky alone suffice?
Could they even process it or end up rejecting it?

Not sure, there is little in the forums confirming one way or the other.

Canray did make a joke about Troll Jerky here once, so others have had a similar thought.

Think I may drop a note to Patrick Goodman and ask about this as this seems like a good question and could at least give Ghouls some options.

Wonder if the Rigger would let me put a smoker in the back of the van....... Could end looking like the Mystery Machine in the first Scooby Doo live movie.

If this works, it is definitely going in the Paracooking section.

Actually, I (and my group) abandoned traditional Shadowrunning years ago. Honestly, there's more than enough excitement in the Sixth World without playing an amoral psycho who's only morals are "I shoot people in the face for money, and I don't care who." The recent novelette "DocWagon 19" by Jennifer Brozek was a perfect example of this. Such "alternative campaigns" have far more appeal for me these days. If you're in search of excitement in the Sixth World, there's no shortage of ways to get it legally. A DocWagon HTR team, monster hunters, bounty hunters, escort duty / assisting the Draco Foundation or the Atlantean Foundation on digs in dangerous parts of the world (Tomb Raider, anyone)?

As for more "traditional" Shadowrun campaigns, I didn't mind basic industrial espionage/sabotage, as long as the damage was strictly property. Corp A hires you to spy on / trash the warehouse of Corp B, well, that's no biggie. Corp B will probably hire you to do the same thing to Corp A the next week. Both of them understand that's just how the game is played in the Sixth World. But the idea of wetwork for hire does not appeal to me.

So, actually, I don't blame people for shooting at Shadowrunners - they typically have good reason to. So they can shoot at ghouls while they're at it - they have even more reason to.



As Tymeaus Jalynsfein pointed out, it would be more like cats being remade into monstrous predators of other cats - and that they don't normally do. My furry little girl keeps hunting my toes under the covers when they move, but even she just tries to chase off other cats, she's never tried to eat them.

Well Patrick Goodman came back to us about this on the other forum with the following:


So simple air drying seems ok, even really low heat to help dry a bit faster, but no salt/nitrates/other seasonings as it may disrupt whatever residual essence there is in the meat.
Smoking it looks to also be out.

Ha ha ha, awesome! I am grateful he took the time to consider it!

So basically simple dry meat is OK, but any kind of preservative is out? If anything that makes things simpler, although as a GM I think it would be hilarious as hell for the team vehicle to have a secret smoker compartment in the back or something like that. I would probably allow it for hilarity.

Well with the restriction about no salts/nitrates/other additives/smoking this does put several limits on the end product plus other factors.
Digging through various notes we see the following:

1) The meats for drying have to be fairly lean. Fatty meats will still go rancid pretty quickly if not treated/cured/otherwise preserved.
Metablubber (we are not counting essential fat like that found in nerve tissue or bone marrow that the body needs to maintain itself) can run to around 12-17% on average in a typical healthy person, with it ranging from 3-7% in a top athlete up to 20%+ in an obese person.
Ironically the most desirable ones to go after are the very ones best able to outrun you.

2) Your skeleton accounts for another 12-15% of body weight.

So between fats and deboning you are losing from a quarter to a third of the carcess for possible storing purposes.

3) Air/Solar drying is not fast and does require some prep work. You can not just throw a whole leg in the drying unit and come back in a few hours to a finished item.
The meat has to be cut up into thin cuts and laid out or hung to dry which typically takes around 2 days and sometimes up to 4 days.

So time and space have to be devoted to this, making it harder to conceal such going ons.

The concern that was raised about the possible ease of buying 'mystery jerky' from a local vendor may have some merit as a Butcher shop would make for a good front to disquise some of this.
Though given how rare real meat is, even these shops may be few and far between in most neighborhoods.

Edit: Plus drying means water loss through evaporation and meat can expect to lose 60-70% weight loss due to the drying process.
So you end up with quite a bit less than you might initially think.
Taking an average 180lb man might yield between120lb - 135lb meat to start, but once you've dried it out for storing, you are looking at around 42-48lbs (presuming an average loss of 65% to water loss) of edible jerky.
In third the ghoul had to eat a minimum of 1% of their body weight per week (Shadowrun Companion pg 32), but in 5th they say they need at least one meal per day, appropriate to its size and metabolism (Core pg 401).
Edit: Most people consume around 2-4lbs of food a day, though they have a wider diet and ghouls are always supposed to look a bit skinny/bony so saying about 1 lb a day of jerky for the dietary requirement and the rest can be filled in with other meats might not be a stretch.


4) The worry about having them store food for months at a time is mitigated a little bit as the shelf life of dried meats without the use of salts/preservatives/cooking/etc.. is about 1 month unless you are refrigerating it and even then they only recommend keeping it for 2-3 months total.
I would probably rule that past the 1 month mark denaturing within the meat makes it no longer fulfil the dietary requirement.

So they could still eat it past that date, but it would not provide the essence of the meat so they would still need to eat something else to appease that hunger.
Kind of like when they eat ghoul caps to stave off the hunger a bit. Tasty but lacking the right nutrition to keep them going.

You may even want to enforce addiction rules for eating Man Jerky.
Since it only has traces of the Essence, lifting a page from Essence Addiction an Addiction Rating of 1 with an Addiction Threshold of 2 would not be remiss.
Which puts it on par with Soykaf, so your ghoul may find he just can't start his night without a quick SkinJim™ or two as well as needing to have some through the run even though he already ate his meal for the day earlier and might get cranky if he doesn't get his snacks.


As to the secret Smoker, I would say you could smoke the meat, but it ruins it for purposes of the dietary requirement because it disrupts whatever trace essence there might have been in the meat.
So again they could eat it because they are hooked on that hickory smoke flavour, though they may have problems keeping it down and they would still need some regular man meat to sustain themselves.

Edit: That said, MijRaj on the other site put forward you could probably fit a suitable for drying in the back of an ice cream truck/ van so even the aforementioned space requirement could be handled.

Course convincing your Rigger to let you set up shop in back of his ride is another story.

Congratulations, but I'd say your characters are a minority among shadowrunners. Refusing to harm people unless in self-defense even is a negative quality.

Now of course, "that would be hypocritical" does not mean "that is not going to happen" (I'm sure everybody can think of several examples himself), but it makes a good in-universe argument against it happening.


The argument was that cats, despite being instinct-driven to hunt pretty much everything, can be socialized to not eat something which normally makes up a good part of their diet. What that "something" is does not really matter for the argument.


@Sendaz:

However it doesn't say the entire meal has to be the required diet, only that "Critters with this weakness have to include something strange or exotic in their diets."
Except for a daily dose now being the default, I read that as the same "depends on the critter" as in the 4th BBB. It was only in RC (or maybe RW) that the exact requirements for Infected were specified. Run Fasta! didn't say anything on the matter, so as usual I'd supplement uncertainties with old rules

And no matter what the actual percentage of body weight is, it should be calculated from the "natural" weight of the meat. AFAIK meat does not significantly lose calories when drying it, and whatever those mysterious aura traces which ghouls require are, they are probably not some homeopathic "water memory"

PS:

Interesting point: Since the Dietary Requirement is magical, is it influenced by how "unnatural" something is, similar to how Object Resistance affects other magic? In other words, is there a difference between troll jerky prepared by a hermit in the woods according to a secret process passed down the family since the dawn of time, and freeze-dried troll in a vacuum pack (Best before 2575. Warranty void in case of metaplanar invasion or if exposed to more than two nuclear exchanges)?