Shapeshifter Questions, How the heck does the shifting mechanic work? Options

[Sonus]

So I apologize if this has been answered at some other point, but is there any sort ruling on how the shift power works?

Like, I assume it carries over from 4th that they have one specific metahuman body that they can switch to, but how fast do they shift? Can they carry any gear with them when they change?

I'm really dying to know.

[FriendoftheDork]

So I apologize if this has been answered at some other point, but is there any sort ruling on how the shift power works?

Like, I assume it carries over from 4th that they have one specific metahuman body that they can switch to, but how fast do they shift? Can they carry any gear with them when they change?

I'm really dying to know.

Where is the shift power from? All I found in the core SR5 book is the Mist Form power of vampires.

I think you have to be more specific about which rules you are referring to.

[Stahlseele]

The ability to shape shift from (meta)human to animal form and back?
SR4 i think introduced the ability to at least have a metahuman form instead of just a human form.
Not sure if you could actually get a human, a metahumand and an animal form.
Also, as far as i remember, no going halfsies either. 100% animal or 100% biped.
The shifting was a complex action i think? So one combat round for a full shift.
And no, just as with the mist form power of vampires you can't take anything with you.
Well, maybe. Depending on what you shift into. If as a human you took the sling of a bag into your mouth, i'd expect it to be still there when you have bigger teeth.

[Medicineman]

So I apologize if this has been answered at some other point, but is there any sort ruling on how the shift power works?

Like, I assume it carries over from 4th that they have one specific metahuman body that they can switch to, but how fast do they shift? Can they carry any gear with them when they change?

I'm really dying to know.

1 Metahuman Body (chosen at Char Generation and probably with extra cost ) No 1/2Form !
No mention how long it takes ,widely used Houserules are between 1 complex action and 1 complete Round
Your bare Body transforms. No clothing, no Tiger in Boxer Shorts , no Cats in Boots. (No Armor !)
Body Piercings will stay in place though ( I suppose)

HougH!
Medicineman

[Mantis]

How does a shifter get body piercings? They regenerate.

[Sonus]

How does a shifter get body piercings? They regenerate.

Not in 5th edition they don't. In fact there is no actual rule at all for how the shifting power works in 5th edition which is what is leaving me so confused.

[Draco18s]

This is the best resource on the topic:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=773189

If the shifter's Body is greater than the highest Armor value (regular clothing has armor rating 0), then the clothing is ripped apart and destroyed during Shift. If the shifter's Body is lower, then they injure themselves and are entangled in the armor. The DV is equal to the Armor rating. Since shifters regenerate, it isn't a huge issue, but extracting themselves might require some sort of Escape Artist test, or shifting back to human form. And likely is accompanied by much laughter and pointing of onlookers.

And, straight from AH (who swears when my name pops up on IM these days...)

"Hey Bill, ever seen a were-moose in power armor before?" "Ouch, those antlers went right through the helmet. Gonna be a bitch to get that off."

Shifting form should be a single complex action.

It's a question that was answered for SR4, not 5, but that's the closest you're going to get.

[Sonus]

Figures, I'm glad there is at least some of answer though; thanks everyone.

[Draco18s]

By the way, you're making a shapeshifter.

A few tips:

Build the character with the explicit intention that under [Circumstance X] you will want to shift into animal form. Knowing that, structure every single stat, skill, and other power such that in [Circumstance X] the animal form will be better suited in every possible way than metahuman form.

My first drake character (SR4) I built with the intention of being better at being a gunner in dracoform than in human. Once the situation arose however I went, "Hold on, if I switch I lose: the ability to communicate, 8 armor, smartlink, and a couple other minor things. In return I get 2 extra dice to shooting things. Why would I do this?" So I never shifted. Surprisingly I was still one of the better combat soldiers the team had, despite virtually wasting 65 BP (heavily modified SMGs and just enough recoil comp that I got 12 dice 3 times a round was awesome).

My next drake I built with the specific intent that every "benefit" that being a drake gave the character was actually a positive change from being human. 0 armor to 4. [X] agility to [X+2], and so on. There was still the language thing, but I had the intent on learning Mindnet asap (was just outside scope for chargen). I got shot to hell and back on several occasions, but every single time, those 4 points of armor made the difference between being a wounded drake and a dead college student (and every single time it was being a street-dumb college student that got him shot in the first place).

That character was so much fun. One of the other players was a shifter, a bear. You should be able to find some tales of him on the board here if you search for "Bear Who Walks Through Walls."

[Mantis]

Not in 5th edition they don't. In fact there is no actual rule at all for how the shifting power works in 5th edition which is what is leaving me so confused.

Well that's just stupid. Regeneration is about the only thing shifters get to offset the whole no armour thing.

[Sonus]

Agreed, but it seems they tried to make them a lot more just "magic shapeshifting animals" and less werewolf inspired with this edition. They lost their silver allergy and regeneration and are meant to be focused on magic as far as I can tell.

Essentially we got the Animorphs.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Agreed, but it seems they tried to make them a lot more just "magic shapeshifting animals" and less werewolf inspired with this edition. They lost their silver allergy and regeneration and are meant to be focused on magic as far as I can tell.

Essentially we got the Animorphs.

Or at least Animagi... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

Or Manimal

[Mantis]

Or Manimal

No. I refuse to believe that. There was no Manimal and there is no Manimal.

[Sonus]

Or Manimal

I feel like I just got throat punched by the 80s.

[Ixal]

Well that's just stupid. Regeneration is about the only thing shifters get to offset the whole no armour thing.

That always was in my opinion the main problem with shifting, be it shapeshifter or drake (although it is worse for drakes imo).

Shifting radically alters the character and is hard to do spontaneously as you lose your gear (and you have to make provisions to take it with you) and sacrifice several important abilities like voice or hands. When you need those you have to shift back and you are pretty much naked and very vulnerable.
But unless you shift all the points you spend being a shapeshifter/drake are wasted as you hardly get any bonuses in human form.

[Sonus]

Yeah, it is pretty much pointless and limiting to play a Shifter besides RP purposes. I'd probably make some heavy house rules if I ever ran a game.

[Ixal]

I think to make Shifters really viable besides for RP they either need to either become cheaper, even if that would unbalance them on paper or need more bonuses in metahuman form.

Another possibility would be to make shifting more easy, but I dont want to see something like in D&D where all equipment is merged with your new form.

No idea how Draco18s build his drake to always be an improvement, but I do not see it as an advantage to have to walk around with no armor just so that getting armor 4 is an improvement. Especially that many times you get into situations where you need/can go into drake form you alredy know that you should wear some armor instead of going in unarmored.

[Mantis]

Yeah. I always laughed at the 4 hardened armour drakes got in 4th ed. Wow. What a pointless advantage. There is literally no weapon in the game beyond the unarmed punch of someone with a low/average strength that can't punch through. Hold out pistol? 4P base with 1 net hit punches through. Knife? So long as you have a strength of 5, it punches through. Survival knife? Strength 3 cuz -1 AP. Might as well charge less for the drake quality and just make it normal armour.

Ultimately for my games, I just make all these critters and shifters NPCs since there is little reason to play them as a player. Unless you are running a game to explore what it means to be an animal in human form, shifters aren't worth it and unless you want to play a game where the drake is hunted by dragons and others (all drake characters in the team?) there isn't much advantage there for the cost either. This 4th ed I'm speaking of here.

I haven't looked into them much for 5th ed but so far they don't seem worth it there either. Not entirely convinced that's a bad thing though. Special snowflakes often produce more problems for a GM than offer unique RP experiences. I've never been convinced they were worth making into a PC option.

[Ixal]

I think the realisation thet they do not work from a mechanical point and the overuse of dragons in 4e are the reasons there are no drake riles in 5e.

And I agree with the Hard Armor. Even in 5e where it would do something it would be better just to have normal armor and pay less for it.
Having immunities on PCs is always hard to balance unless it is something esotheric which does not come up often.

But in case of drakes its always a balance between useability/optimization and style (keeping the abilities in line with what SR dragons have but weaker.) So keeping useless Hard Armor but only paying for normal armor would work too.
In SR it is also problematic as the Shifter characters are all hunted a lot, so every time you have one of them in your party the game starts to more and more to focus around him (again this is much worse for drakes than shifters).
To make them really playable they also have to be demystified in lore to not disrupt games quiet as much.

[Draco18s]

No idea how Draco18s build his drake to always be an improvement, but I do not see it as an advantage to have to walk around with no armor just so that getting armor 4 is an improvement. Especially that many times you get into situations where you need/can go into drake form you alredy know that you should wear some armor instead of going in unarmored.

It's an improvement in the sense that the character went from "none" to "some." It wasn't meant to be a metagamed superior tactic, it was meant to be "how do I make this valuable."

Sure, giving the character an armor vest would have been tactically better in every situation, but there wasn't the opportunity to acquire it (my character got swept up into events, the rest of the party was more prepared in the usual sense); we were doing the Renraku Shutdown adventure. Bear Who Walks Through Walls we found inside the facility. I forget exactly how my character got involved, but ended up being, essentially, a college student who was attending the Renraku college when shit went down.

It was not the most efficient use of BP. It was an awful waste of BP.

But it was fun as hell.

Was almost as entertaining for me as Beartown was for one of our others players (long story short on that, it was a Mage game where a country bumpkin kid finds out he has magic powers and joins up with the local coven, none of his decisions after that were the smartest. Beartown was when he decided it was a good idea to let a cat-shapeshifted-into-a-bear loose on the residential streets "as a distraction." It ate several people and fought the local police on national TV before having the shapeshift dismissed and exploding into FLRM because it's health track was now much shorter than its current wounds).

Point was, the reason to build a character with the "not human" half in mind and making everything that side gets to be an advantage is that otherwise you're trading a decent, tactically smart combatant for an animal. Even as a bear you are going to have less armor, less ability to communicate, less ability to wield weapons, deal damage, etc. etc. etc. You won't ever make the choice to shift because there is no situation in which it is better and you'll end up playing a lower-power version of a regular human/elf/troll. And that's neither interesting, nor fun.

(Speaking of, Bear Who Walks Through Walls was a bear/troll pacifist with all of the "deal extra damage to objects" qualities and powers. He could punch 1 meter square holes through concrete at his own walking speed. His entire motivation was raiding fridges. The rest of the party used him as a breaching charge.)

[Wounded Ronin]

I feel like I just got throat punched by the 80s.

In order to balance out the power level of shapeshifters, all players will be forced to watch that video in its entirety whenever a shifter shifts.