The Cure for HMHVV, A speculative scenario for curing the plague of the Sixth World Options

[JanessaVR]

On the other hand, Manipulation spells like Sterilize don't need you to target individual organisms visually, and they're great at wiping out things like Fluorescing Astral Bacteria (SM p127, p174).

However, Deathtouch / Slaughter are Mana spells that only affect living things; viruses aren't alive.

That’s a very good point, but since HMHVV is Awakened, I don’t think anyone’s told it that. If the virus is Awakened, I think it counts as “alive,” as least as far as magic is concerned.

Even if a spell destroys all assembled HMHVV viruses at one point in time, infected cells will continue manufacturing the viruses. The virus-blasting spell will need to be repeated frequently to destroy the product of this continuous construction. Maybe "the patient is no longer HMHVV-positive" after a treatment but they soon will be again. Even if the viruses are destroyed, the infection is still integrated into the host chromosomes (whether interrupting a useful gene, or located in "junk" DNA, or whatever) of host cells. The "genetic surgery facility" seems focused on reverting the typically really hideous appearance. Are you implying the gene therapy is detecting and excising the viral DNA from every host cell? That should be explicit if so. Combined with frequent destruction of viruses, that could prevent reinfection and eradicate the viral genes.

I appreciate knowing this. Being a programmer by trade, and not a physician (or virologist), the viruses I occasionally deal with are of a very different variety. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So that means we have a further, specific question for how HMHVV works “under the hood.” To wit, when it transforms a victim, does it remain the source of their now magical nature, or does its transfiguration of the victim truly turn them into a magical creature in their own right?

Depending on the answer to that question, I see 3 possible solutions:

1) The individual HMHV Viruses are the only source of magical output in the victim’s body. If all of them are simultaneously killed, then any new versions of them that the victim’s body creates won’t be magical (presumably in this case the existing viruses impart their “magicalness” to any “newborn” viruses within the victim’s body after their “birth” from virus-compromised cells), and will thus be much more vulnerable to the Cure Disease spell and/or conventional anti-viral medical treatment (circa the 2070’s, which seems to be pretty darn advanced compared to today’s medical technology). My cure as written can proceed pretty much as planned, with just the added step of some magical and/or mundane anti-viral therapy added.

2) HMHVV really does turn all of the victim’s cells magical as well, in order to be able to manufacture more magical copies of HMHVV. In this case, the solution required is much more complex, and much more extreme. You’d probably want to conduct this ritual at the genetic surgery facility (to facilitate dumping the patient into the tank as fast as possible afterwards). In addition to killing the extant individual viruses in the patient’s body, you’d have to simultaneously have another magician cast a like spell to kill the metagenes it’s inserted into the patient’s cells, which is very likely to kill the patient. This is the reason I came up with my “Cellular Support” spell, after reading in SR3 Year of the Comet that altering metagenes tends to result in dead metahumans. You’d have to get enough hits on that spell to keep the patient alive after that happens to them, or possibly even come up with and use another type of magical life support spell as well (quite likely something bordering on Cybermancy) and keep it sustained on the patient, as these sustained spells would be all that’s keeping them alive. You’d probably have to keep those spells sustained even while the genetic surgery was being conducted, until they were put back together enough to not immediately die without them essentially forcing the patient’s body to stay alive during treatment.

3) HMHVV really does turn all of the victim’s cells magical as well, and we say “Screw it, there’s no fixing this.” In this case, it’s time to get the patient a new body, as their old one is just FUBAR. We have some conflict in the rules here, looking at growing “wimp” clones in SR4 Augmentation, pp. 52 – 53, and the Escaped Clone quality in SR4 Runner’s Companion, p. 97. We’ll probably need to take a gene sample from the patient, fully sequence it, and then have a computer repair/restructure their genetic code back into our “best guess” of whatever their metahuman form was before their Infection; if we actually have an uncontaminated genetic sample on file, so much the better and we can skip this step. We use this sample to grow a clone (probably slower than the standard forced-growth “wimp” clones used for organ transplants, in order to try our best to preserve a healthy brain structure as noted in Augmentation), and then things get a bit tricky. Our best model for what we do next here is the treatment that was proposed for Thomas Roxborough in the Dragon Heart Saga. The patient’s memories will need to be copied (with either nanotechnology and/or magic), imprinted on the clone’s brain, and then their soul transferred from their old body to their new body; at that point you can just chuck their old body into the nearest medical waste incinerator. (Truthfully, I forget why this approach didn’t work for Tommy-boy, as that should have done the trick for him, and he’s rich enough to throw endless truckloads of money at the problem.) You’re looking at spell research for developing at least one, and possibly two new spells here (Transfer Soul and Copy Memories).

Anticipating your inevitable question, @JanessaVR, yes, I've read the thread.

I appreciate your careful review in this instance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hermit]

Erm... no? At least, the "Divining" Metamagic in my Street Magic book does something entirely different.

What, there is a minimum time to look into the future now, no more "what is happening at place X in the next few seconds"?

[Thanee]

I still fail to see how that would be any help with remote-targeting of spells... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[hermit]

Okay, I was unclear: I meant those two as complementary, but separate measures, not as a combined measure.

[Bodak]

Anticipating your inevitable question, JanessaVR@, yes, I've read the thread.

Anticipating your inevitable question, @JanessaVR, yes, I've read the thread.

I appreciate your careful review in this instance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I am glad to see the care I always take is occasionally appreciated. But I see what you did with the @ symbol. If this were IRC and you were a chanop, you would get a @-prefix, but this isn't and you aren't. Usually the syntax is user@host. JanessaVR@dumpshock would indicate your account on this server; JanessaVR@neocron-game might indicate your account on another server; @dumpshock would address this host; if you and I are both on the same host, JanessaVR@ would address you as a user on our common host. Being a programmer by trade, I see consistency with established syntax like this as a good thing.

Regarding solution #3 (cloning) there's a good discussion here about using a clone meatbod and a PersonaFixBTL "personality" to set up a new organism that matches the original visually, genetically and behaviourally. You're right though that you'd have to track down a cell that isn't compromised with viral DNA to do so though - perhaps check the filters in their vacuum cleaner, or swab up some skin flakes from behind their bed / between the cushions on their couch / from the U-bend in their shower drain. That challenge could be worth sending a shadowrun team on if the house has since changed ownership.

Regarding solution #2 (spells and gene vat) if there were some biological agent that used the same restriction enzymes as the HMHVV paired at a distance equal to the viral DNA length, that could be circulated through their system (while in the vat if you like) continuously, and the "slaughter HMHVV" spell could be cast periodically. You'd then have the viral DNA cut out of the host chromosomes but still present in the cell nuclei. Take a tissue sample and that would give you access to the nuclear viral DNA. Engineer something to break that sequence down and pour that into the vat. Once that has permeated every cell in the body, the root cause is dealt with. Maybe some consequences remain, but they would be HMHVV negative and remain so, which might be all they need (whether that's to get their passport back, their job back, their family back, or win cash prizes in the Guinness Book of Records).

[JanessaVR]

I appreciate your careful review in this instance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I am glad to see the care I always take is occasionally appreciated. But I see what you did with the @ symbol. If this were IRC and you were a chanop, you would get a @-prefix, but this isn't and you aren't. Usually the syntax is user@host. JanessaVR@dumpshock would indicate your account on this server; JanessaVR@neocron-game might indicate your account on another server; @dumpshock would address this host; if you and I are both on the same host, JanessaVR@ would address you as a user on our common host. Being a programmer by trade, I see consistency with established syntax like this as a good thing.

I've never participated in any IRC forums/channels, so I'll take your word for it. I mostly see it used more informally here and on other forums as basically "my response here is to person" [insert person's forum handle] and I've simply picked up the habit. So I've been trying to be consistent with how I've seen this used as an informal convention. FYI, I'm probably going to keep doing that, but you feel free to use your version and I'll leave it be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Regarding solution #3 (cloning) there's a good discussion here about using a clone meatbod and a PersonaFixBTL "personality" to set up a new organism that matches the original visually, genetically and behaviourally. You're right though that you'd have to track down a cell that isn't compromised with viral DNA to do so though - perhaps check the filters in their vacuum cleaner, or swab up some skin flakes from behind their bed / between the cushions on their couch / from the U-bend in their shower drain. That challenge could be worth sending a shadowrun team on if the house has since changed ownership.

Well, either find one or engineer a "best guess" version based on a sample from their current body as I said (better than nothing). I'll have a look at that thread. But, assuming that souls are real and are the seat of consciousness (in this magical world), I think moving that over to the new body would be a necessary final step as well. In other words, the soul is, in fact, the real "you."

Regarding solution #2 (spells and gene vat) if there were some biological agent that used the same restriction enzymes as the HMHVV paired at a distance equal to the viral DNA length, that could be circulated through their system (while in the vat if you like) continuously, and the "slaughter HMHVV" spell could be cast periodically. You'd then have the viral DNA cut out of the host chromosomes but still present in the cell nuclei. Take a tissue sample and that would give you access to the nuclear viral DNA. Engineer something to break that sequence down and pour that into the vat. Once that has permeated every cell in the body, the root cause is dealt with. Maybe some consequences remain, but they would be HMHVV negative and remain so, which might be all they need (whether that's to get their passport back, their job back, their family back, or win cash prizes in the Guinness Book of Records).

Well, it sounds like we have a general agreement on this approach (adjusted for your suggestions above).

[Bodak]

I'll have a look at that thread. But, assuming that souls are real and are the seat of consciousness (in this magical world), I think moving that over to the new body would be a necessary final step as well. In other words, the soul is, in fact, the real "you."

Many (perhaps all) HMHVV victims are dual beings, permanently dual natured. So if they didn't mind staying that way you could use spirits to help out with a body swap:

Couldn't one use the Vessel Trading power to do this RAW? Say you make a living vessel either out of an existing person or a clone, you bind the free spirit into the vessel, coerce it into using the trading power on the subject and boom! Instant 'soul-swap.'

Vessel Trading is on SM p110 but it doesn't grant control of the host body to a secondary being put there by the spirit. But you could overrule this if the body is similar enough (identical).

Consider a voodoo (SM p42) possession shaman with Binding and Invoking to summon a great-form Guardian/Task spirit (SM p57) with Endowment (SM p99) and Inhabitation (SM p100).

1. Enable the Guard power (SR4a p295) on the spirit, the HMHVV-infected original, and the clone host vessel to prevent glitches (which would result in true form or immunity).
2. Allocate binding dice to the host (to make a flesh form more likely).
3. Endow the HMHVV-infected dual-natured original with Inhabitation and get them to merge with the clone vessel. End up with a hybrid or flesh-form dual-natured being with the body of the clone and the mind of the previously infected.
4. Put the old body through a mulching machine before a Shedim drifts past.
5. Profit.

[Sengir]

Only with Krieger, since Type I and II are infertile as per Running Wild.

But RC states that this "infertility" is because the virus is passed down the germ line, which causes the fetus to not develop properly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In case of Type III, 4th edition had the interesting rule that ghouls offspring are ghouls, but do not carry HMHVV. This means the condition of being a ghoul is passed down the germ line (making HMHVV an endogenous retrovirus) and not at all dependent on having the virus in your system.

The new Infected in 5th do not have that concept anymore, so you could just as well argue that the fetus is infected with HMHVV in the womb and does not inherit the "ghoul genes".

In case it took that route evoltionarily, which I kind of doubt. Looks more like a magical super soldier program gone wrong - from the last days of the Elven Court, maybe?

Meh, "ancient superweapon/soldier" is so boring. And Dual Natured is the last thing you would want a soldier to have (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


My (non-canonical) take: Ghouls were a "variation" of the standard Namegiver races created for building or maintaining Kaers. They're adapted to living in the dark, physically strong, their astral sight was probably helpful for all those wards, and they could live from the naturally occurring dead among the population, thereby not wasting additional resources and even performing a service similar to scavengers in real ecosystems. They were not infectious in the 4th World (that would have been really dumb design), but neither were they at the beginning of the 6th -- see SR1 for example. So something must have happened when HMHVV and the ghoul metagene loved each other very much and...

[Sendaz]

My (non-canonical) take: Ghouls were a "variation" of the standard Namegiver races created for building or maintaining Kaers. They're adapted to living in the dark, physically strong, their astral sight was probably helpful for all those wards, and they could live from the naturally occurring dead among the population, thereby not wasting additional resources and even performing a service similar to scavengers in real ecosystems. They were not infectious in the 4th World (that would have been really dumb design), but neither were they at the beginning of the 6th -- see SR1 for example. So something must have happened when HMHVV and the ghoul metagene loved each other very much and...

That's not a bad little concept, may steal that one.

[hermit]

But RC states that this "infertility" is because the virus is passed down the germ line, which causes the fetus to not develop properly wink.gif

Later books overrule earlier books. RC was a tad too Twilight anyway.

The new Infected in 5th do not have that concept anymore, so you could just as well argue that the fetus is infected with HMHVV in the womb and does not inherit the "ghoul genes".

Which makes a lot more sense, anyway.

[JanessaVR]

Which makes a lot more sense, anyway.

I think I'm going to go with this as well.

[Sengir]

Later books overrule earlier books.

Only if there is an actual overruling. But here RC states the same as RW, just with a bit more explanation of the "why".

Which makes a lot more sense, anyway.

Not really a question of sense, IMO:
- Option one is an endogenous retrovirus (those exist, a good part of "junk DNA" is though to have originated in them), but does not pass the placenta barrier (neither does HIV, most of the time)
- Option two is a retrovirus which does cross the placenta and infects the fetus. Various normal viruses do that, can't see why a retrovirus shouldn't.

Both options make sense.

[hermit]

Only if there is an actual overruling. But here RC states the same as RW, just with a bit more explanation of the "why".

Infertility and first-term miscarriage are two entirely different things.

Both options make sense.

Option C is the functional destruction of gametes or gonades through the virus, resulting in infertility, as often happens with AIDS through secondary infections. I'd go with that.

Other than that, retroviral DNA is hardly stably inserted, which is why they'Re called junk DNA and jumping genes. They'd have a hard time expressing such a complex phenotypical pattern.

[Sengir]

Infertility and first-term miscarriage are two entirely different things.

The exact quote from RC is: "Like HMHVV I victims, HMHVV II victims are sterile". Sterility can mean a lot of things in the spectrum of "not being able to produce offspring". I'd also point out that the very next sentence uses the phrase "breed like horny college students", so arguing over exact medical definitions of "sterility" vs. "the fetus fails to develop properly" might be overthinking things a bit...

Option C is the functional destruction of gametes or gonades through the virus, resulting in infertility, as often happens with AIDS through secondary infections. I'd go with that.

Problem is, ghouls can produce living offspring (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DeathStrobe]

The HMHVV2 entry in the wiki says "Unlike the other strains, HMHVV II doesn’t confer any vampiric abilities upon its victims and the most common vector of infection is from parent to offspring."

My assumption is that someone just added that line without knowing any better. But was this different in SR2 and 3?