No, not just shooting them in the head. My opinions regarding the Infected are, I trust, well-known here. Nonetheless, HMHVV always has, and continues to fascinate me. It’s the car crash I can’t help but stare at, the puzzle begging to be solved. And I believe I’ve done so.

I would argue that the existence of a cure doesn’t remove the impact of HMHVV on the Sixth World. If anything, I believe in this instance it would heighten it, as this cure would only be available for the rich. And the rich not having to worry about disease as they have access to best and latest futuristic medical care while the poor masses huddle suffering in the Barrens? What could be more cyberpunk than that?

The process of the cure involves multiple stages utilizing both magic and technology; HMHVV is not an easy disease to fully counter. I’m guesstimating the final price tag as being probably over 1 million ¥ per patient. This process uses the SR4 rules.


Speculations on the Nature of HMHVV

This required some considerable research throughout multiple rulebooks.

The primary basis of metagenetics are “astral shadows,” which are effectively astral components attached to specific genes. In short, they are what make specific genetic components magical in nature. Purely mundane genes don’t have them, and thus behave in a completely mundane manner. HMHVV is an Awakened virus, and so clearly it has them.

This highlights the main problem the canon attempts to cure HMHVV – I think their entire approach is flawed. Most of the people working on the cure are doctors treating this through the lens of a background in mundane virology and genetics, when that’s not the problem at all. If this was caused by a mundane virus, then mundane medicine and/or magical disease curing spells could eliminate it, almost certainly. No, the problem is its magical component, which makes it so tenacious. So no amount of work into trying to develop some sort of vaccine or “miracle drug” is ever going to work. But, if you disable/kill the magical component of the virus, then mundane medicine can be used on the patient. That’s the primary thrust of this approach.

Now, we know that the Cure Disease spell does nothing to cure HMHVV. Most likely, this is because after the victim’s transformation, the virus counts as "normal" for the victim’s body and not as an invading organism, so the spell ignores it. This is supported by the fact that there is no mention of the Cure Disease spell affecting any “friendly” microbes in the patient’s body; no need to rush to go eat some yogurt after being treated by the Cure Disease spell, as if it were some sort of super-antibiotic.

So, we need to target this thing specifically and kill it – with magical assassination. Lock onto the individual viruses in the patient’s body and kill just them, nothing else. But this approach highlights another problem. It’s been mentioned that attempts to alter existing metagenes frequently kill the patient (and the whole point here is to cure them, not kill them). So, there’s a very decent chance that this nasty little magical virus will not “exit gracefully,” hence the need to “brace” the patient’s cells against possible damage during the process. There’s nothing in the rulebooks that would accomplish this, so that will need to be a new spell.

Ok, we have a basic game plan, but now we need some hard numbers. In an Opposed Test to eradicate HMHVV from a patient’s body, what is being rolled against? I decided to use the rules for attacking Wards as a guide, as it seemed to the closest (sort of) equivalent I could find in the rulebooks for this situation. In the SR4A Core Rules, p. 194, in the “Passing Through Barriers” section, it’s noted that “An astral mana barrier may be attacked in astral combat; treat it as a standard barrier with an Armor and Structure equal to its Force (see Barriers, p. 166).” Consulting pages 166 – 167, in the “Destroying Barriers” section, we see that barriers roll their Armor rating to defend against spell damage, and the remaining damage much equal or exceed the Structure rating to destroy the barrier. This seems like a reasonable way to rate the “strength” of HMHVV for resisting removal from its host.

But one more thing, also as per page 194 in the SR4A Core Rules, in the “Passing Through Barriers” section, there is this: “The enchantment on a mana barrier restores it to full Force after one Combat Turn of ‘rest,’ however, regenerating any damage or breaches and making such barriers impervious to all but the most determined foes.” Given the legendary resistance of HMHVV to any and all cures attempted to date, this also seems like a reasonable rule to include. So either kill it in one shot, or it quickly repairs itself and you have to start all over.

All right, so the next big question is…just how strong is HMHVV? It’s magical in nature (but not Sapient and has no Willpower score), so I think it can reasonably just be given a Force rating, which lets us use the above mechanics. And this would be…what, exactly? Well, consulting SR4 Running Wild, page 68, and its errata posted here on Dumpshock, we get:

• HMHVV-1: Vector: Infection Power, Penetration -3, Power: 13, Nature: Retroviral
• HMHVV-2: Vector: Injection, Penetration -3, Power: 13, Nature: Retroviral
• HMHVV-3: Vector: Injection, Penetration -3, Power: 6, Nature: Retroviral

I decided that a particular strain of HMHVV has a Force rating equal to its Power (this is the best I could come up with). So, being somewhat conservative and assuming a 1/3rd success rate (rounding up) on all dice rolls, in an Opposed Test:

• HMHVV-1: Force 13 = Armor 13 and Structure 13. 13 dice to resist damage = 5 hits. Need 18 hits to kill it.
• HMHVV-2: Force 13 = Armor 13 and Structure 13. 13 dice to resist damage = 5 hits. Need 18 hits to kill it.
• HMHVV-3: Force 6 = Armor 6 and Structure 6. 6 dice to resist damage = 2 hits. Need 8 hits to kill it.

Ok, now we have our hard numbers. Bring in the patient – let’s operate.


The Operation

This can be a one-mage job, but that mage will need to have at least a Magic of 10, so that’s Magic 6 + Initiate Level 4 as well. Alternately, a mage of least Magic 9 and two other mages each with Magic 6 can achieve the same results. For this example, we’ll use a single mage.

Morgana is a Hermetic mage with Logic 6, Magic 10, Willpower 6, and a Spellcasting skill of 6. She also has a stacked Power & Centering Focus 10, and three Sustaining Foci 10. She’s also a level 4 Initiate and knows the Centering metamagic technique.

For this operation she’ll be using the following spells: Cellular Support (excluding HMHV Viruses), Detect (HMHV Viruses), Heal, Hibernate, Slaughter (HMHV Viruses) spells. Full descriptions for all of these spells are provided in a section below.

Again, I’m being somewhat conservative and assume a 1/3rd success rate (rounding up) on all dice rolls.

For Spellcasting, she’s rolling: Magic 10 + Spellcasting 6 + Power Focus 10 = 26 dice.
For Drain, she’s rolling: Willpower 6 + Logic 6 + Centering 4 + Centering Focus 10 = 26 dice.

The patient is Vlad, a vampire with an average Willpower of 3; he’s tired of his rather limited liquid diet and wants to be human again.


Phase 1 – Prep the Patient for Surgery
• She casts Hibernate at Force 10 on the patient and locks it into her Sustaining Focus #1. This spell is effectively functioning as magical anesthesia for this operation.
• Morgana’s dice rolls for the above: Spellcasting is 26 dice, giving her 9 hits; the subject’s bodily processes are slowed by a factor of 9. Drain for this spell is (Force / 2) -3, which comes out to 2, and she’ll easily absorb that with 26 dice for drain.
• She casts Cellular Support (excluding HMHV Viruses) at Force 10 on the patient and locks it into her Sustaining Focus #2.
• Morgana’s dice rolls for the above: Spellcasting is 26 dice, giving her 9 hits; this provides the patient with an Armor rating of 9 (to add to their Willpower) against any internal damage the process of killing off the HMHV Viruses in their body might cause. Drain for this spell is (Force / 2) +3, which comes out to 8; rolling 26 dice for 9 hits, she fully absorbs this drain.


Phase 2 – The Operation
• She cast Detect (HMHV Viruses) at Force 10 on the patient and locks it into her Sustaining Focus #3. This spell functions as the targeting mechanism for the next spell. It highlights the exact location of each of the individual HMHV Viruses present inside the patient’s body.
• Morgana’s dice rolls for the above: Spellcasting is 26 dice, giving her 9 hits. Drain for this spell is (Force / 2) -1, which comes out to 4, and she’ll easily absorb that with 26 dice for drain. These many hits will also ensure a sufficient level of detail (see the SR4A Core Rules, p. 206, in the “Detection Spell Results” section) that she knows the location of all of the HMHV Viruses in the patient’s body.
• She casts Slaughter (HMHV Viruses) at Force 10 on the patient. This will fry every last one the HMHV Viruses inside the patient’s body, while the Cellular Support spell protects the patient’s body against the (possible) destructive impact of the Slaughter spell’s effects (see below).
• Morgana’s dice rolls for the above: Spellcasting is 26 dice, giving her 9 hits; this plus the base damage is a total of 19P damage, which is enough to kill off any strain of HMHVV (as per above). Drain for this spell is (Force / 2) +1, which comes out to 6; rolling 26 dice for 9 hits, she fully absorbs this drain.
• Vlad’s dice rolls for the above: If frying the HMHV Viruses in his body causes some sort of harmful backlash, assume that it’s effectively attacking him with a mana damage spell at the HMHVV’s Force rating. He’ll roll Willpower 3 + 9 hits on the Cellular Support spell versus a Force 13 attack. This is 12 dice (4 hits) against 13 dice (5 hits), so he sustains 1 point of Physical damage.
• If the previous spell did any damage to the patient, she can cast Heal on him and repair the damage. Alternately, if the Slaughter (HMHV Viruses) spell was not successful, she can just sit back and wait for him to automatically repair himself, since vampires have Regeneration. If necessary, she can repeat the casting of the Slaughter (HMHV Viruses) spell and try again.


Phase 3 – Post-Op Care
• After the operation, the patient is no longer HMHVV-positive, but still looks like a monster (vampires are probably the only ones who still look mostly normal after their transformation), so that needs to be corrected as well in the final step.
• The patient is taken to a genetic surgery facility where they will essentially be dumped into a tank and rebuilt to look like their old selves (alternately, they could take this opportunity to make some improvements to their old appearance while they’re at it).
• 6 weeks later, the patient’s genetic surgery is complete. They are almost cured and back to normal, but still need to deal with Essence loss.
• HMHVV-2 and HMHVV-3 victims only lose 1 point of Essence. They'll require 10 months of Essence Revitalization therapy.
• HMHVV-1 victims who are cured are left with only 1 point of Essence. They'll require 4 years and 2 months of Essence Revitalization therapy.


The Price Tag - Primary Surgery
• Finding and hiring a Magic 10 caster and having them learn 5 spells. 100,000 ¥
• Spell formula purchase cost for the Heal and Hibernate spells: 1,000 ¥
• Spell formula research costs for 3 new spells (Combat, Detection, Manipulation): 40,000 ¥
• Purchase and binding of 1x Rating 10 Stacked Power & Centering Focus: 400,000 ¥ and 140 KP
• Purchase and binding of 3x Rating 10 Sustaining Foci: 300,000 ¥ and 120 KP
• Final Cost: 841,000 ¥ and 260 KP

I can’t find any rules for hiring NPCs, so the costs for hiring professional mages for legal work are almost completely pulled out of a hat. But, given the time needed for them to learn new spells and bind foci, and Karma the they’ll have to spend doing so – and the fact that Magic 10 mages do not grow on trees – I decided on a cool 100K as their fee. If you can hire this same mage to keep doing this job, however, then there’s room for some considerable amortization here for all the other costs.

For researching the new spells, I used the spell formula purchase prices in the SR4A Core Rules, p. 181, and added a zero.


The Price Tag - Post-Op Care
• Full-body reconstruction of the cured patient (Gene Therapy, Phenotypic Alteration): 50,000 ¥
• Essence Revitalization therapy for HMHVV-2 or HMHVV-3 cured patients: 275,000 ¥
• Essence Revitalization therapy for HMHVV-1 cured patients: 1,075,000 ¥
• Final Cost: 325,000 ¥ for HMHVV-2 / HMHVV-3 cured patients or 1,125,000 ¥ for HMHVV-1 cured patients


Spells Used

Cellular Support (excluding HMHVV Viruses)
Type: Mana
Range: Touch
Duration: Sustained
Drain Value: (Force / 2) +3
Description: This spell is somewhat like the Armor spell, save that it’s focused on preventing damage from inside the patient, by “bracing” the patient’s cells against damage from within while a magical virus eradication is being conducted throughout their body by a damaging mana spell. It specifically excludes HMHVV Viruses from its effects.
Reference: SR4A Core Rules, p. 210 for the basic Armor spell
NOTES: This is a completely new spell.

Detect (HMHVV Viruses); (Active, Area)
Type: Mana
Range: [Force * Magic] in meters
Duration: Sustained
Drain Value: (Force / 2) -1
Description: The caster detects all individual HMHVV Viruses within the spell’s range and knows their number and relative location.
Reference: SR4A Core Rules, p. 207 for the spell Detect [Life Form]
NOTES: This is a new specialization of an existing spell.

Heal
Type: Mana
Range: Touch
Duration: Permanent
Drain Value: (Patient’s Damage Value) -2
Description: Heal repairs physical injuries. It heals a number of boxes of Physical damage equal to the spell’s hits from the Spellcasting Test.
Reference: SR4A Core Rules, p. 208
NOTES: This is a standard existing spell.

Hibernate
Type: Mana
Range: Touch
Duration: Sustained
Drain Value: (Force / 2) -3
Description: The caster must touch a voluntary or unconscious subject. This spell puts the subject into a form of suspended animation. The subject’s bodily processes are slowed by a factor equal to the hits. For example, If 4 hits were scored, the subject’s metabolism is slowed by a factor of 4. Such a subject sealed into a chamber with enough air to keep it alive for a day would be able to last four days. In this particular instance, the spell is functioning as de-facto magical anesthesia during surgery.
Reference: SR4A Core Rules, p. 208
NOTES: This is a standard existing spell.

Slaughter (HMHVV Viruses); (Direct, Area)
Type: Mana
Range: LOS (Area)
Duration: Permanent
Drain Value: (Force / 2) +1
Description: This variant of Manaball is designed to target HMHVV Viruses only.
Reference: Street Magic, p. 165
NOTES: This is a new specialization of an existing spell.


Bibliography

SR3 SOTA 2063, pp. 6 – 30
SR3 Year of the Comet, pp. 22 – 41
SR4A Core Rules, pp. 166 – 167, 181, 194, 207, 208, 210
SR4 Augmentation, pp. 75 – 77, 84 – 90
SR4 Runner’s Companion, pp. 59 – 63, 76 – 83
SR4 Running Wild, pp. 55 – 68
SR4 Street Magic, p. 165
SR Fiction – Another Rainy Night
SR Fiction – Sail Away, Sweet Sister

Wasn't Hitomi Shiawase infected and cured?

Lies and slander about the Empress!

Take his head!

Looks pretty good, but you haven't addressed shoring up the recovered party's Essence.

Remember to be turned originally they were drained of their own Essence, and from there had to constantly feed to top themselves up.

Following on this, basically it was the HHMVV holding the essence so when the magic virus gets ripped out your patient is going to have one heck of an essence hole left in him.
He shouldn't just get to wake up with an intact shiny new whole aura coming out of this.

For gameplay I would say leave him with a 1 Ess (personally I would have gone with 0.1 but that's just me) so now he has to look at some sort of Essence restoration process.


Only hitch is in Howling Shadows they hint that the genetech normally suggested for this may be slightly borked at present:



Doesn't mean there are no options, they are working on new nanite systems that are not so easily compromised and there may be more magic-inclined routes, like a metaplanar quest using a supporting spirit to handle their travel arrangements to renew themselves.
But it does mean coming up with a something for rebuilding the spirit while they are rebuilding the body.

Thank you! You wouldn't believe the work I put into this.

And I totally forgot about the whole Essence thing. I'll work on an update to my original post above. But that's mostly for vamps, ghouls only lose 1 Essence, so they'll need less work there.

UPDATE: Done, look over my original post again. And thanks for catching that.



Yeah, but that's all 5th Edition trash I'm ignoring anyway. We don't acknowledge the events of 5e. Like my first post said, this is 4e game mechanics.

Really? Where did that appear? I'd like to read that book.

Don't you need to be able to visually target for Combat spells?

Also, why that Cellular Support spell, when the Slaughter only targets the HMHVV, anyways, which are excluded from the previous one. Seems like a non-effect to me.

And the best thing this would do is kill the subject, in my opinion, since removing HMHVV from the body will effectively remove the body's only source of sustenance. HMHVV is what keeps the body alive (by allowing it to feed on the Essence of others). With that gone, the body will run out of Essence and die in a few weeks/months.

HMHVV transforms the body. Without the means to revert that process, removing the virus won't help.

I also think that your assumption, that noone is trying magic to cure it, is definitely false. There are megacorporations working on that, and they have every asset available to them. Surely they have realized, that all the Infected are also dual beings and/or awakened to some degree.

No, sorry, but this is way too easy a solution. Especially, since most of the spells aren't even necessary. Basically, you only need the Slaughter spell in a form that does not require visual targeting. The rest doesn't do anything. Reduced to its essence the solution comes down to "research spell to kill HMHVV - cast - done".

If anything can work, it would have to be a combination of Biotech, Genetics and Magic. Reading the subject's DNA, reverse-engineering its original genecode (you would probably need something to compare it to), cloning a new body, moving the life force over to the new body in some magical way. Something like that.

Bye
Thanee

I'm not sure you actually read my post.

The Detection spell is used for targeting, that was stated explicitly. It's absolutely necessary, in fact, as the targets can't be seen visually.

It seems we disagree about the fundamental nature of HMHVV. I can live with that. This will get used at our table, but you can give it a pass.

I did.



I realize that, and I don't think it is mechanically sound. You cannot cast Combat Spells on targets that you only detect via Detect spells.

You cannot use Clairvoyance for that, nor anything else. That's why I wrote "visually target".



That is probably the case, yeah.



You can do whatever you want, of course.

Just saying, that you make it a wee bit simple to remove one of the greatest maladies of mankind.

Bye
Thanee

If that were strictly true, then Ritual Spellcasting on remote targets via material links would not be possible. Clearly there are other methods of establishing a link with the target of a spell. In fact, "Detection spells give the subject a new sense, beyond the normal five senses, for as long as they are maintained." Being able to "see" the targets with your "sixth sense" seems entirely reasonable, especially since if the Detection spell is picking them up at all, it has reached out and connected to those targets to do so.

Well... "A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision." That's the only way.

With Ritual Spellcasting, maybe that Symbolic Link could somehow work (getting a Material or Sympathetic Link seems a little far-fetched).

Bye
Thanee

Again, I guess we'll just have to disagree on this.

Okay, let's look at it from the other direction.

Assuming you can target spells via senses gained by Detection spells.

What stops a mage from researching an extended range, Clairvoyance-like spell without the limitation, that you cannot target spells through it?

Do you really want that to be possible?

Bye
Thanee

Sure.

Emphasis added. A retrovirus inserts its own genome into the host's DNA, which is a fundamental part of what makes the Infected. Therefore magically purging the virus would not be enough, the changes to the DNA would also have to be reversed...incidentally, a popular vector for gene therapy happens to be HMHVV-based retroviruses, because those seem to be really good at rewriting genes...

That's because in 3rd, HMHVV was maybe curable through confusing rules and badly matched fluff, mostly, which became relatively common use at least with respect to Krieger.

Also, your idea of a "Slaughter HMHVV" spell is interesting and compelling, as long as you could somehow differentiate the Virus from the general patient's aura. If there is a detection spell that can do that, you're pretty much set. I suppose it would need to be strain-specific, given the very narrow application of slay/slaughter spells (they require a different one for every kind of infected too, so it would possibly be both strain- and metatype-specific). Of course, whether it is possible to keep a subject alive without the virus - especiaslly Strain I, which requires the Infected's (brief) death - is another question, but that treatment could, at the very least, keep the Ghoul Apocalypse at bay. Possibly cure Strain II too. I don't have much hope for Strain I and Ia, though.


Uhm ... but that already is possible with the Clairvoyance spell and Divination metamagic?


Can Cure Disease cure AIDS? If so, it can handle retroviruses - which refers to the fact that the virus' genome is RNA-based and need an enzyme called reverse transcriptase to be written inton the host cell's DNA to do their thing, as opposed to DNA viruses, which are able to be read by the cell's mechan isms immediately. This is how they cause 'jumping genes', too. AIDS, being the most feared (most others caue various nasty types of cancer, btw), probably is responsible for the general perception of retriviruses as particularly dangerous.

What makes the Infected stand out from other sick in Shadowrun is the fact they both suffer Aura drain from the disease and can drain auras of other sentient creatures. Aside from being very curiously focused, that, and not the genome insertion, makes these infections stand out from other, mre mundane and probably cured by Cure Disease retroviral infections.

However, retroviruses do not "rewrite genes". They insert new genes. Those genes do dastardly things. Sometimes, because viruses are pretty instable and RNA is a crap medium anyway, they only copy half the genes, and the cell suddenly finds new genes it, being a cell, stubbornly reads and processes, to no effect (becoming a jumping gene or new junk DNA), to the effect of inhibiting growth inhibitors (causing cancer) or, in rare cases, to cause a mutation in an organism that is passed on and may or may not drive an entire species ina new direction. All that, thouh, is accompliced by adding DNA, not by rewriting DNA.

I know that's not enough, hence the post-op care part where they're sent to a genetic surgery facility.

I forget, Technobabel, maybe?

I think it was Psychotrope.

And wasn't it more of a vaccine because of the crowds she was running with?

Have to go digging through the tomes, but I think she wasn't full blown Infected, but was potentially going down that route when Daddy stepped in and treated her.

Edit: here we go



So she had been on the brink, but had not gone fully across.

But there are still some questions about the vaccine itself... especially when it turns out Dear old Daddy set up the child as a guinea pig for testing it.


Besides the shoddy parenting, this is an interesting point as shortly afterwards we have the Terminus Experiment novel, which centers around Vamps researching ways to alter the HHMVV to remove or reduce their current weaknesses/allergies.
Was the vaccine gained here part of that research? seems probable.

After this fiasco she ends up switching one love for a different sort


This always made me wonder if that was why otaku were typically children, not just because their neural pathways were still developing and more flexible so as to be able to adapt to being otaku, but they were also chosen because they were more vulnerable to being taken in by the forces behind it with promises of love and belonging.
But that is a discussion for another thread.

The first thing which makes Infected stand out is the simple yet extremely obvious fact that their physical appearance is significantly different (and typically really hideous). Which is not due something akin to a Shapeshift spell, Infected do not get any less hideous and do not lose their claws when burning out their other magical abilities. The changes even seem to be passed down the germline, although I will grant that point is not 100% clear.

Bottom line is, Infected express phenotypical changes because of alterations in their genome, which makes reversing those changes a bit harder than curing AIDS.


They don't rewrite genes in the sense of directly altering base pairs, but they can destroy existing genes and add new code, which leads to the same result.

Yes, real retroviruses evolve towards not just destroying random parts of the host cell's genes, because that's a bad survival strategy. And the genes they insert do not code for anything relevant to the human phenotype (unless you count "being dead"), because why would they. But HMHVV has apparently taken another evolutionary route...

Hey now, that's really superficial. Besides, my idea of "pretty" isn't a cyclops either.


Only with Krieger, since Type I and II are infertile as per Running Wild.


In case it took that route evoltionarily, which I kind of doubt. Looks more like a magical super soldier program gone wrong - from the last days of the Elven Court, maybe? At least they're not a GoT spoiler! On noes how could you!

So in short, facebullet remains the best answer? Because I could happily make a career out of slaughtering ghouls if a vaccine is found to prevent further spread.

On the other hand, Manipulation spells like Sterilise don't need you to target individual organisms visually, and they're great at wiping out things like Fluorescing Astral Bacteria (SM p127, p174).

However, Deathtouch / Slaughter are Mana spells that only affect living things; viruses aren't alive.

Even if a spell destroys all assembled HMHVV viruses at one point in time, infected cells will continue manufacturing the viruses. The virus-blasting spell will need to be repeated frequently to destroy the product of this continuous construction. Maybe "the patient is no longer HMHVV-positive" after a treatment but they soon will be again. Even if the viruses are destroyed, the infection is still integrated into the host chromosomes (whether interrupting a useful gene, or located in "junk" DNA, or whatever) of host cells . The "genetic surgery facility" seems focussed on reverting the typically really hideous appearance. Are you implying the gene therapy is detecting and excising the viral DNA from every host cell? That should be explicit if so. Combined with frequent destruction of viruses, that could prevent reinfection and eradicate the viral genes.

Anticipating your inevitable question, JanessaVR@, yes, I've read the thread.

Erm... no? At least, the "Divining" Metamagic in my Street Magic book does something entirely different.

What exactly are you thinking about here?

Bye
Thanee

That’s a very good point, but since HMHVV is Awakened, I don’t think anyone’s told it that. If the virus is Awakened, I think it counts as “alive,” as least as far as magic is concerned.



I appreciate knowing this. Being a programmer by trade, and not a physician (or virologist), the viruses I occasionally deal with are of a very different variety.

So that means we have a further, specific question for how HMHVV works “under the hood.” To wit, when it transforms a victim, does it remain the source of their now magical nature, or does its transfiguration of the victim truly turn them into a magical creature in their own right?

Depending on the answer to that question, I see 3 possible solutions:

1) The individual HMHV Viruses are the only source of magical output in the victim’s body. If all of them are simultaneously killed, then any new versions of them that the victim’s body creates won’t be magical (presumably in this case the existing viruses impart their “magicalness” to any “newborn” viruses within the victim’s body after their “birth” from virus-compromised cells), and will thus be much more vulnerable to the Cure Disease spell and/or conventional anti-viral medical treatment (circa the 2070’s, which seems to be pretty darn advanced compared to today’s medical technology). My cure as written can proceed pretty much as planned, with just the added step of some magical and/or mundane anti-viral therapy added.

2) HMHVV really does turn all of the victim’s cells magical as well, in order to be able to manufacture more magical copies of HMHVV. In this case, the solution required is much more complex, and much more extreme. You’d probably want to conduct this ritual at the genetic surgery facility (to facilitate dumping the patient into the tank as fast as possible afterwards). In addition to killing the extant individual viruses in the patient’s body, you’d have to simultaneously have another magician cast a like spell to kill the metagenes it’s inserted into the patient’s cells, which is very likely to kill the patient. This is the reason I came up with my “Cellular Support” spell, after reading in SR3 Year of the Comet that altering metagenes tends to result in dead metahumans. You’d have to get enough hits on that spell to keep the patient alive after that happens to them, or possibly even come up with and use another type of magical life support spell as well (quite likely something bordering on Cybermancy) and keep it sustained on the patient, as these sustained spells would be all that’s keeping them alive. You’d probably have to keep those spells sustained even while the genetic surgery was being conducted, until they were put back together enough to not immediately die without them essentially forcing the patient’s body to stay alive during treatment.

3) HMHVV really does turn all of the victim’s cells magical as well, and we say “Screw it, there’s no fixing this.” In this case, it’s time to get the patient a new body, as their old one is just FUBAR. We have some conflict in the rules here, looking at growing “wimp” clones in SR4 Augmentation, pp. 52 – 53, and the Escaped Clone quality in SR4 Runner’s Companion, p. 97. We’ll probably need to take a gene sample from the patient, fully sequence it, and then have a computer repair/restructure their genetic code back into our “best guess” of whatever their metahuman form was before their Infection; if we actually have an uncontaminated genetic sample on file, so much the better and we can skip this step. We use this sample to grow a clone (probably slower than the standard forced-growth “wimp” clones used for organ transplants, in order to try our best to preserve a healthy brain structure as noted in Augmentation), and then things get a bit tricky. Our best model for what we do next here is the treatment that was proposed for Thomas Roxborough in the Dragon Heart Saga. The patient’s memories will need to be copied (with either nanotechnology and/or magic), imprinted on the clone’s brain, and then their soul transferred from their old body to their new body; at that point you can just chuck their old body into the nearest medical waste incinerator. (Truthfully, I forget why this approach didn’t work for Tommy-boy, as that should have done the trick for him, and he’s rich enough to throw endless truckloads of money at the problem.) You’re looking at spell research for developing at least one, and possibly two new spells here (Transfer Soul and Copy Memories).



I appreciate your careful review in this instance.

What, there is a minimum time to look into the future now, no more "what is happening at place X in the next few seconds"?

I still fail to see how that would be any help with remote-targeting of spells...

Bye
Thanee

Okay, I was unclear: I meant those two as complementary, but separate measures, not as a combined measure.

I am glad to see the care I always take is occasionally appreciated. But I see what you did with the @ symbol. If this were IRC and you were a chanop, you would get a @-prefix, but this isn't and you aren't. Usually the syntax is user@host. JanessaVR@dumpshock would indicate your account on this server; JanessaVR@neocron-game might indicate your account on another server; @dumpshock would address this host; if you and I are both on the same host, JanessaVR@ would address you as a user on our common host. Being a programmer by trade, I see consistency with established syntax like this as a good thing.

Regarding solution #3 (cloning) there's a good discussion here about using a clone meatbod and a PersonaFixBTL "personality" to set up a new organism that matches the original visually, genetically and behaviourally. You're right though that you'd have to track down a cell that isn't compromised with viral DNA to do so though - perhaps check the filters in their vacuum cleaner, or swab up some skin flakes from behind their bed / between the cushions on their couch / from the U-bend in their shower drain. That challenge could be worth sending a shadowrun team on if the house has since changed ownership.

Regarding solution #2 (spells and gene vat) if there were some biological agent that used the same restriction enzymes as the HMHVV paired at a distance equal to the viral DNA length, that could be circulated through their system (while in the vat if you like) continuously, and the "slaughter HMHVV" spell could be cast periodically. You'd then have the viral DNA cut out of the host chromosomes but still present in the cell nuclei. Take a tissue sample and that would give you access to the nuclear viral DNA. Engineer something to break that sequence down and pour that into the vat. Once that has permeated every cell in the body, the root cause is dealt with. Maybe some consequences remain, but they would be HMHVV negative and remain so, which might be all they need (whether that's to get their passport back, their job back, their family back, or win cash prizes in the Guinness Book of Records).

I've never participated in any IRC forums/channels, so I'll take your word for it. I mostly see it used more informally here and on other forums as basically "my response here is to person" [insert person's forum handle] and I've simply picked up the habit. So I've been trying to be consistent with how I've seen this used as an informal convention. FYI, I'm probably going to keep doing that, but you feel free to use your version and I'll leave it be.



Well, either find one or engineer a "best guess" version based on a sample from their current body as I said (better than nothing). I'll have a look at that thread. But, assuming that souls are real and are the seat of consciousness (in this magical world), I think moving that over to the new body would be a necessary final step as well. In other words, the soul is, in fact, the real "you."



Well, it sounds like we have a general agreement on this approach (adjusted for your suggestions above).

Many (perhaps all) HMHVV victims are dual beings, permanently dual natured. So if they didn't mind staying that way you could use spirits to help out with a body swap: Vessel Trading is on SM p110 but it doesn't grant control of the host body to a secondary being put there by the spirit. But you could overrule this if the body is similar enough (identical).

Consider a voodoo (SM p42) possession shaman with Binding and Invoking to summon a great-form Guardian/Task spirit (SM p57) with Endowment (SM p99) and Inhabitation (SM p100).

1. Enable the Guard power (SR4a p295) on the spirit, the HMHVV-infected original, and the clone host vessel to prevent glitches (which would result in true form or immunity).
2. Allocate binding dice to the host (to make a flesh form more likely).
3. Endow the HMHVV-infected dual-natured original with Inhabitation and get them to merge with the clone vessel. End up with a hybrid or flesh-form dual-natured being with the body of the clone and the mind of the previously infected.
4. Put the old body through a mulching machine before a Shedim drifts past.
5. Profit.

But RC states that this "infertility" is because the virus is passed down the germ line, which causes the fetus to not develop properly

In case of Type III, 4th edition had the interesting rule that ghouls offspring are ghouls, but do not carry HMHVV. This means the condition of being a ghoul is passed down the germ line (making HMHVV an endogenous retrovirus) and not at all dependent on having the virus in your system.

The new Infected in 5th do not have that concept anymore, so you could just as well argue that the fetus is infected with HMHVV in the womb and does not inherit the "ghoul genes".


Meh, "ancient superweapon/soldier" is so boring. And Dual Natured is the last thing you would want a soldier to have


My (non-canonical) take: Ghouls were a "variation" of the standard Namegiver races created for building or maintaining Kaers. They're adapted to living in the dark, physically strong, their astral sight was probably helpful for all those wards, and they could live from the naturally occurring dead among the population, thereby not wasting additional resources and even performing a service similar to scavengers in real ecosystems. They were not infectious in the 4th World (that would have been really dumb design), but neither were they at the beginning of the 6th -- see SR1 for example. So something must have happened when HMHVV and the ghoul metagene loved each other very much and...

That's not a bad little concept, may steal that one.

Later books overrule earlier books. RC was a tad too Twilight anyway.


Which makes a lot more sense, anyway.

I think I'm going to go with this as well.

Only if there is an actual overruling. But here RC states the same as RW, just with a bit more explanation of the "why".


Not really a question of sense, IMO:
- Option one is an endogenous retrovirus (those exist, a good part of "junk DNA" is though to have originated in them), but does not pass the placenta barrier (neither does HIV, most of the time)
- Option two is a retrovirus which does cross the placenta and infects the fetus. Various normal viruses do that, can't see why a retrovirus shouldn't.

Both options make sense.

Infertility and first-term miscarriage are two entirely different things.


Option C is the functional destruction of gametes or gonades through the virus, resulting in infertility, as often happens with AIDS through secondary infections. I'd go with that.

Other than that, retroviral DNA is hardly stably inserted, which is why they'Re called junk DNA and jumping genes. They'd have a hard time expressing such a complex phenotypical pattern.

The exact quote from RC is: "Like HMHVV I victims, HMHVV II victims are sterile". Sterility can mean a lot of things in the spectrum of "not being able to produce offspring". I'd also point out that the very next sentence uses the phrase "breed like horny college students", so arguing over exact medical definitions of "sterility" vs. "the fetus fails to develop properly" might be overthinking things a bit...


Problem is, ghouls can produce living offspring

The HMHVV2 entry in the wiki says "Unlike the other strains, HMHVV II doesn’t confer any vampiric abilities upon its victims and the most common vector of infection is from parent to offspring."

My assumption is that someone just added that line without knowing any better. But was this different in SR2 and 3?