Shadowrun 6, What needs to be changed? Options

[Adhoc]

So let's assume for a second that we are starting the design of the 6th version of Shadowrun.

We'll start with an analysis of the current edition to see what needs to be addressed.

What do you think needs to be addressed?

A.

[Adhoc]

Of the top of my head:

3 worlds:
Shadowrun has always had 3 worlds: the physical, the astral & the matrix.

This needs to be streamlined to you have the same rules for all 3.

The rules for the physical can be used to represent the matrix. Your decker/technomancer builds a character with stats and plays him on the Matrix. His Assisting Programs are handled as the rules for drones.

The technomancer does the same, but uses different rules for creating the character. He uses the rules for spirits for his Assisting Programs.

All combat/hacking/stealth uses the same rules as in the same activities in the physical world. The virtual reality handles the confrontation through a simulated virtual reality.

That way the rules system would look like this:
- Physical rules
- Rules for Sprites/Spirits
- Rules for Drones/Programs
- Rules for Technomancers - how to create a virtual Persona
- Rules for Deckers - how to create a virtuel Persona
- Rules for Mages - how to cast spells (using the rules for firearms)

What do you think? Am I mad?

A.

[Glyph]

On the Matrix:

I think the Matrix needs to be streamlined, and there need to be some changes. There need to be easy Matrix tasks, so that script kiddies and Matrix gangs can plausibly exist, and non-deckers can have something to do. There should be rules supporting the fluff of deckers cobbling together cyberdecks and coding their own programs, without it becoming a massive time sink - deckers should not be so dependent on a disproportionately expensive (compared to what runners get paid) piece of gear. I think making hacking utilities cheaper and less important was a step in the right direction - now do away with them altogether; just assume that any cyberdeck has them, and use the deck's base ratings.

There should still be a mechanic for possibly triggering an alert, either to the host or to the Grid Overwatch Division, but Overwatch score needs to go. Matrix perception needs to be more like regular perception - a roll to notice a hidden icon or significant detail, not something you roll for EVERYTHING. Simple actions such as hacking someone's smartlink should be easier to do and be similar to other combat actions - a simple opposed test. On the other hand, wireless "bonuses" really need a drastic overhaul. Skinlinks and internal DNI need to be reintroduced, and matrix bonuses should be limited to devices that can be remote-controlled or that can benefit from connecting to a large database. Matrix combat should instead be focused on hacking enemy security systems, tacnets (which need to be much, much, much cheaper, and more ubiquitous), and drones.

On the subject of drones, I think should be moved over to deckers. No more RCC, just decks. Riggers should go from being their own "class" to being a sub-specialty of deckers (for drones) or street samurai (for vehicle riggers - the VCR should go back to being a relatively cheap and Essence-friendly augmentation like it was in SR4).

Technomancers are hard. They do the same things deckers do, but have special abilities, counterbalanced by their "organic" stats being weaker than those of an augmented decker with a tweaked-out deck. Honestly, I would play down the differences rather than play them up, making them more like the difference between shamans and hermetics. Get rid of Resonance, let them take augmentations again. Have a few things they can do better than deckers, and a few things they aren't as good at. Possibly get rid of Fading - make them more like deckers rather than trying to shoehorn in rules similar to the ones for Magic. Make them as similar to deckers as you can, and still keep their unique flavor. That will make balancing them a lot easier.

[DeathStrobe]

Reading Glyph's comment made me think, maybe Deckers and TMs should be more similar. But with the difference being, that TMs need to resist fading, while Deckers always get hit with Overwatch Score for hacking actions. This will allow TMs to hack longer but at the risk of knocking themselves out, while Deckers are on a clock and just need to hack quickly and with purpose. I think OS is a fine mechanic, as it is something that existed back in 3rd and optionally in 4th as the security tallie.

Honestly, I'd also like to see fewer attributes and skills. As I feel they're are just too many of them. But they also need to mix up what attributes do, so they don't run in to the problem of SR3'd Quickness being the god stat.

[Trillinon]

Honestly, the rules could be exactly the same, but if they were more concisely written, with better organization and clear headings, I'd buy in. The existing game just needs a lot of editorial polish.

That said, I would like to see fewer, broader skills and attributes. And a lot fewer qualities, which serve only to complicate the game in diverse ways.

I also think that limits, while well-intentioned, serve as another moving piece to keep in mind while trying to run the game. Especially natural limits, which have relatively complex calculations, making creating an NPC on the fly much more difficult. There does need to be a mechanism whereby gear can impact the success of a test, but perhaps Anarchy has a better idea. A mechanism that lets you reroll failures would probably be more fun.

If I had a motto for a new edition, it would be, "do more with less". Get the rules down to two or three well thought-out books.

[Medicineman]

Shadowrun 6, What needs to be changed?

First and Foremost ?
The Company that produces it !

HougH!
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

And Wanda Maximoff said:"No more wireless!"

[KCKitsune]

I think the one this that is needed is to make Street Sams a thing again. In 5th edition they get bent over and used like a cheap prostitute. I mean let's face it, with all the advantages the Awakened get, being a street sam is TOUGH. They not only got rid of the 50% Essence discount for the lesser of Bio/Cyber, they also made augmentation so much more EXPENSIVE! If you want to prevent what happened in 4th edition make it so the Awakened/Emerged do NOT get the above 50% discount.

[Stahlseele]

Simple Solution: ALL magic gets the Sensitive System Flaw that doubles the cost of ALL implants in both Essence and Money.
Done.

[KCKitsune]

Simple Solution: ALL magic gets the Sensitive System Flaw that doubles the cost of ALL implants in both Essence and Money.

Done.

I don't think the doubling of the nuyen cost of 'ware is needed, but the "All 'Special Snowflakes' get the sensitive system flaw" is agreeable.

[Blade]

- Reboot of the setting, because 30 years of plots piling up on top of one another makes for a lot of clutter and makes it hard for both writers and new readers. The only positive aspect is that it allows some people to feel smug because they remember some obscure fact from some old book.

- Have three different flavor: technothriller, cyberpunk and post-cyberpunk. Core rules are the same, but each has its own set of optional rules to capture the expected flavor. Each flavor is set in a different part of the timeline and has dedicated writers, who are able to go fully in the direction they like most, without having to bother supporting other playstyles.

- For the fluff/plots, move away from sourcebooks and more to the Internet, where information can be updated, linked and maintained. A subscription model would be used for those who want to keep up with what is happening in the world.

- Rethink the whole system on a game design point of view, instead of working from legacy and "how it used to be done". And to be controversial : if necessary, get rid of the "big box of D6".

[Adhoc]

First and Foremost ?
The Company that produces it !

HougH!
Medicineman

What is wrong with it?

My POV is that they are actually keeping Shadowrun alive - which isn't an easier feat these days (being a print media).

A.

[Moirdryd]

Work out what people loved about the game, why it was such a popular and solid seller in the periods it held. What people play most at their tables from any given edition. What people like reading about and the styles they enjoy within the game setting.

Take these aspects. Work out what works with them and why and what parts people are not using. Look at the parts of the game people dont use at their tables as much, find out why. Rework those parts.

[Trillinon]

For a new edition, when it happens, I'd love to see an open approach like the D&D 5 playtests. But, that might be challenging with the freelancer driven model of Catalyst.

I've often daydreamed about what the perfect product lineup would be. Something like:

• Starter Set (basic rules. basic gear. no bioware. intro to Seattle. Classic metatypes, classic archetypes)
• Advanced Rulebook (Runners Companion, Street Magic, and core rules merged)
• Advanced Gear Book (Augmentation, Arsenal, Rigger, and core gear merged)
• Big Book of Stat Blocks (NPCs, HTR teams for everyone, Critters, etc)
• Seattle 2080
• World Atlas
• Sprawls of the World (Chicago, Denver, Hong Kong, etc)
• Power Players Sourcebook (Governments, Corporations, Unions, Guilds, Syndicates, etc)

And then a metaplot book each year that covers threats, pop culture, state of the art gear, etc.

[Glyph]

What is wrong with it?

My POV is that they are actually keeping Shadowrun alive - which isn't an easier feat these days (being a print media).

A.

Part of the problem is the exodus of talent, which left some good writers, but also some other writers/freelancers who lacked a very basic understanding of the rules and the game world.

The biggest problem, though, is a massive editorial failure at the line developer level (not the company level - look at how comparatively well put-together Battletech is; and not from a proofreader level - there have been complaints from editors about fixes they did that did not make it into the finished product). SR5 has some spots where you can glimpse the game it could have been, but there are serious errors, omissions, muddled rules, and contradictions. Layout-wise and art-wise, the books are very pretty, but the content has major problems.

[SpellBinder]

And Wanda Maximoff said:"No more wireless!"

I think wireless is fine by the fact it exists. The issue as I see it is the needless insanity that is the attempt at WiFi synergy for sometimes silly bonuses just so the "special snowflake" hackers/deckers can get their "participation trophy" for being able to limit themselves to hacking someone's gun while the bullets are flying.

[Stahlseele]

dude . . srsly . . have you watched any of the Watchdogs 1 or 2 gameplay?
THAT is what the wifi stupidity is supposed to do.
If it did work, you'd have to get rid of it.
And seeing how it does NOT work either . . get rid of it!

[KCKitsune]

dude . . srsly . . have you watched any of the Watchdogs 1 or 2 gameplay?
THAT is what the wifi stupidity is supposed to do.
If it did work, you'd have to get rid of it.
And seeing how it does NOT work either . . get rid of it!

I disagree Stahlseele. We had WiFi tech in 1999. And not just in labs. The tech was out and to say it got stuffed back in the bottle is not very realistic. The only reason that Shadowrun 1st edition didn't have it was because it came out in 1989. Hell, even by 3rd edition (1998), WiFi was not a common household product.

As for Watchdog type of shenanigans... that's because modern US cyber security is like using used toilet paper for armor. The US is so bad at it that we normally get our hoop handed to us by the North Koreans. THEY have a cyber warfare training program, US colleges are worried more about who can use what bathroom.

The most common parallel I can see with SR not keeping up with a technology was like Traveler having computers with only 640K of RAM. Laughable by any standard.

[sk8bcn]

AV bullets halving armor would probably have been enough I guess

[Moirdryd]

WiFi is fine. Implementation of WiFi not so much. There was the whole Ghost in the Shell debate when SR5 launched and yeah, I think that it did try and go too far in that particular direction. Accessing the Matrix via WiFi is a perfectly acceptable concept and there are ways of blending ideas and systems to make it work. But that doesn't mean it needs to run off a Universal System Design, it can be an elegant system, but when you tie everything to the complete same mechanic you lose flexibility of narrative/setting having a mechanical representation and this leads to a lot of the 'handwaving' rules that breaks the internal logic or mythos of the setting itself.

[Kovu Muphasa]

I would say get better editors first, it is like reading stereo instructions half the time.

Simplify some things, we don't need Shadowrun Anarchy levels of rule reduction, but they could make things work so much simpler.

Examples:
Burst fire: -2 Defensive dice to the target and you expend 3-5 rounds depending on the weapon. Full Automatic -5 Defensive Dice and uses 10-20 rounds depending on the weapon.

Yes I am talking about dumping the whole Recoil System. It is to easy to abuse and if you got the cash you can make most weapon's recoil nonexistent anyways though mods and high Strength.

[Nath]

Some not-so-random thoughts...

- Get rid of the distinction between Simple and Complex actions. One Free Action and one "Normal Action" per Initiative Pass. No more double tap. You may have to alter melee and ranged weapon damages, full auto modifiers and/or spells to balance the result, but previous editions did alter those in numerous occasions, so I guess it can be done again.

- Get rid of Limits. If there's really a need for a minor bonus to fill gear lists, I'd go with a recoil compensation-like modifier (cancels out negative modifiers but does not allow to go above the normal dice pool).

- Merge Body and Strength. If you really wants to play something as specific as a sturdy weakling, there are Positive Qualities for that.

- Modify attributes in some way so that you no longer have the utter nonsense that knowledge skills linked to Intuition are. Possibly merge Intuition and Willpower with a new name.

- Add some random factor to Spell Drain so that mages fear it again. Add some fixed value to Spirit Drain so that summoning big spirits becomes dangerous. My personal idea is to unify the spell and spirit drain formulas into F/2 + modifier + resistance roll hits (and yes, I would consider the opportunity to get down a mage by having Counterspell and using Edge on resisting his spell as a feature, not a bug).

- Get rid of shotguns cone of dispersion. Yes, that's an actual thing that exists, but nowhere near even the narrower dispersion SR rules apply.

- Introduce a Software test that allow characters to make a competitive use of skillsofts, giving the hacker and technomancer archetypes a themed, new ability to use in combat.

- Reduce augmentations cost to mass-market level price. Introduce a karma cost for lowering Essence. Probably the most controversial move, but I really think it is the only way to get out of the "money vs. karma" debate (if the rigger gear issue is also addressed, it may even be possible to reach a point where you could offer a quick chargen system that handwaves the nuyen aspect).

- Get rid of the "divide remaining nuyens by ten" rules. Just allow people to skim through the gear list when creating their character and go back to it later if they forgot something or learnt about it from another player.

- Allow characters to spend karma to "find long-lost friend" or "move into a new environment" and get new contacts after chargen.

- Write rules for virtual reality and computer operations. Write fluff and tactics for the Matrix. Separately. If we can have combat rules that don't account for corporate offices architecture and furnitures choice, or social rules that don't describe corporate hierarchy and command structure, I guess that can be done.

[Glyph]

ADEPTS:

Adepts are basically magical street samurai, although better as specialists than as the all-around asskickers that street samurai are supposed to be. They tried to differentiate them from their mundane brethren by making some things cheaper for them, and other things more expensive for them. There were just two things that made them potentially unbalanced from SR4 onward.

The first was that they could selectively get bioware to boost areas that were expensive to improve with power points, such as initiative and Attributes. The second was that all too often, augmentations and adept powers stacked. So adepts could get critical strike on top of bone density augmentation, or tailored pheromones on top of cool resolve. Now, in both editions this does have some opportunity costs, but usually what you can get makes it more than worth it.

The only solution that I can see is simple and brutal: make a version of the Sensitive System quality the default for all awakened characters. Bioware doesn't work for them, and cyberware has a doubled Essence cost. Maybe this could be balanced by reducing some adept power costs to their SR4 levels (Improved Attribute costs 0.75 per level, etc.).

That would help to reign in one of the most egregiously unbalanced of adepts, the infamous pornomancer. But the rest of the problem is that they simply made too many stacking magical bonuses for social skills. Mentor spirit bonuses, improved ability, authoritative tone, cool resolve, the presence metamagic, etc. Ironically, SR5 had them comparatively reined in, until Street Grimoire came in and slathered on all of these additional bonuses like a hot dog vendor going crazy with the condiments.

I am very ambivalent about even putting the idea out there , because I really like playing augmented adepts, but sometimes the only way to balance something is to just take the option off the table.

I guess it depends. I have the impression that adepts were originally intended to be more specialized than street samurai - Zen marksmen, kung fu masters, supernaturally mesmerizing performers, etc. If you want to keep augmented adepts as a viable but not overpowering option, then they are fine as is - it is augmented characters who need to be beefed up. In SR4, augmented characters lagged behind adepts on the power curve, until Augmentation and Runner's Companion came out. If you gave your street samurai born rich, genetic heritage, and restricted gear (x3), then got some choice 'ware, you had a badass who could hang with the augmented adepts. So the choice is, either keep them equally weak, or equally AWESOME.

I have to admit, I have never liked adept ways. Both for the constraining factor, and all of the fiddly math and bookkeeping over those percentage discounts. If I had to have adept ways in the game, I would make them more like mentor spirits (to the point where I would say you can only have one or the other). A bonus to something, a free power or two, and some kind of restriction.

I like qi foci, and would keep them.

Background count is a problematic area for me. First of all, to me, background count should be special. I like the general idea, but it should only be there for things like a lab where they are performing horrific experiments, a wendigo's lair, etc. You shouldn't have background count just because there was a drive-by, or a concert.

But the problem that adepts have with background count is that so very many of an adept's powers are basically small dice pool bonuses, so background count can effectively turn them into an instant mundane. I am not sure how to fix it. I would go so far as to suggest going back some editions to where background count didn't affect adept powers at all. Otherwise, I would say keep the range of background count lower and have it be a more meaningful thing to encounter. But I would apply penalties the same as for spirits, as a flat dice pool penalty.

Mystic adepts, I would treat like SR5 does, mostly - they seem OP as hell at first glance, but that's because they are front-loaded builds. After the start of play, they advance slower than regular adepts (not gaining power points from increasing Magic, but only by taking the power point metamagic at initiation).

I also think the magical types should be able to blend more as they advance. Maybe an adept could learn how to craft wards or summon beast spirits, or a mage could gain mystic armor, or a mystic adept could learn astral perception. Obviously, it shouldn't be easy. Alternately, you could let players buy piecemeal from a range of mage and adept options, custom-crafting their magic rather than being stuck with just four comparatively inflexible "classes".

[KCKitsune]

The only solution that I can see is simple and brutal: make a version of the Sensitive System quality the default for all awakened characters. Bioware doesn't work for them, and cyberware has a doubled Essence cost. Maybe this could be balanced by reducing some adept power costs to their SR4 levels (Improved Attribute costs 0.75 per level, etc.).

I disagree with you about having bioware not working on an Awakened characters. It makes no sense that bioware doesn't work, but cyberware does. Also you're already balancing out the advantage of getting 'ware by having "Sensitive System".

What I see is the unlimited advancement of Awakened. Every other character type can only go so far and then they're stopped. I would have it that Awakened/Emerged characters can only initiate a number of times equal to their Essence. If you get no 'ware you can get up to Magic/Resonance 12.

Mystic adepts, I would treat like SR5 does, mostly - they seem OP as hell at first glance, but that's because they are front-loaded builds. After the start of play, they advance slower than regular adepts (not gaining power points from increasing Magic, but only by taking the power point metamagic at initiation).

I see Mystic Adepts as being too overpowered. I would get rid of them and have it that a Full Mage can gain Adept abilities, but they have to take it as metamagic. If the Adept wants to learn how to cast spells, then he can spend the normal karma penalty to transition from an Adept to a Full Mage.

[Tanegar]

Some not-so-random thoughts...

- Get rid of the distinction between Simple and Complex actions. One Free Action and one "Normal Action" per Initiative Pass. No more double tap. You may have to alter melee and ranged weapon damages, full auto modifiers and/or spells to balance the result, but previous editions did alter those in numerous occasions, so I guess it can be done again.

What does this accomplish?

- Merge Body and Strength. If you really wants to play something as specific as a sturdy weakling, there are Positive Qualities for that.

What does this accomplish?

Introduce a karma cost for lowering Essence. Probably the most controversial move, but I really think it is the only way to get out of the "money vs. karma" debate

What in all of the nine billion names of God are you talking about, here? Street sams have problems, but "too much karma" ain't one of them. O.o