Shadowrun 6, What needs to be changed? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not sure it's a good thing usually. For exemple, Vampire went back to it's roots and Requiem never became the iconic game Masquarade was.

Requiem became a far more defined and BETTER game than Masquerade ever was (disclosure: I prefer a more Open toolbox game to the crushing Metaplot that Masquerade became, even if I own both the Old and New Editions of the Ganes - both "Worlds" have their merits, depending upon the story that you want to tell).
After all, there are not 2 different backgrounds for the World of Darkness... they are Distinct and Different game lines. (Storyteller and Storytelling - not the same thing)
The Chronicles of Darkness is developed by a Company (Onyx Path Publishing) that is dedicated to making an amazing game. And that makes all the difference.

While I cannot fault the freelancers of SHADOWRUN, I can place the blame for the mess at the Line Developers feet.
There is a distinct lack of communication and editing within the system at this point that truly needs attention.
I am not sure that it needs a reboot or a new Edition... but something needs to be done.




*Personally, I prefer the style of 4th Edition*

[redwulfe]

Though I feel that the whole thing needs to be nuked and started fresh with the core concepts both story and rules wise in tact I do have to agree that touching the story may fracture the community of players more but it may not if they take a good approach to the whole thing.

As far as its impact on the company when compared to white wolf, well, white wolf had a strong player base and the game story wise wasn't that bad. They had a good thing going with the whole "someone said it, but it might not be true" way of telling their story. Mistakes can easily be brushed under the table most of the time. The company decided to nuke their game and start fresh when it wasn't needed and that caused the eventual splintering of the community. Both requiem and Masquerade had strong merits and strong followings from their fans but it was not good for the company as they stopped producing Masquerade and that had the larger percentage of their customers.

Shadowrun doesn't have as large a following so a reboot with a streamlined system could gain more customers. if they reset the story and keep some of the broader strokes to keep it very similar to what we know but modernize the story rather than try to patch former mistakes I don't think you will have too much of an outcry from their existing player base. The new player base will know the new story and we can all move forward with a better stronger game. this of corse is dependent on having the right captain for the ship moving forward. (that is not me saying the current one is bad, as I don't know the whole story of what is happening in the upper ranks.)

red

[Trillinon]

A reboot would be a bad idea, but I would like to see the metaplot slow down and take a bit of a different approach.

The current approach has the metaplot woven into every book release, where many threads are built upon simultaneously and plot elements quickly become outdated. While this is good from a story perspective, it's kinda rough from the perspective of someone who wants to run games.

It would be better to have dedicated campaign books that each cover a small set of story threads and are generally independent from one another. That way I can run them in any order in my game without difficulty, and each becomes an entry-point into the overall metaplot. Then, every once in a while they can release a big crossover story, sortof like the first phase of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[KCKitsune]

If I translate this to shdowrun: if you had to clean up the background, you'd have to change the NAN that makes no sense in demography for exemple and, maybe, keep the story plot but reduce the size of their lands to something so much smaller. But now, how do you sell such a change to your gaming group?

Actually, I NEVER liked the NAN lands as they are written. It made absolutely no sense

Impossible.

Not really. It would just take someone with greater creative talent then is currently working at Catalyst.
Hell, here's my off the cuff explanation on why the US Balkanized as badly as it did:

The people in North Dakota, and other midwestern states absolutely despised what the Federal Government was doing to the Native Americans and revolted. This lead the Southern States and the Midwestern states to start a Second Civil War against Washington DC. The Native Americans in the Midwestern States integrated with the white people and at the same time changed their culture (give and take).

There, that was me thinking for 10 to 15 seconds on a story that makes a whole hell of a lot more sense then the Native Americans bovine excrement that was SR backstory. I would also have it that Florida is COMPLETELY controlled by CAS! None of this Caribbean League owning land. That makes even less sense than the NAN.

Which ends up fragmenting the community even more than what 3rd/4th/5th does.

4th edition was not bad at all. Sure there were some rough edges, but compared to horsecrap that is the wireless bonuses in 5th edition, it was golden.

With one perfect edition, you can reunite them like DD 5th does.

With 2 different backgrounds, it's impossible like it is in WoD.

No such thing as "one perfect edition". There are people who are complaining about 5th edition simplifying things too much.

[sk8bcn]

You will always have complains about something. Yet, from what I did read and saw, I have the feeling that DD5 did a very good job.


About the NANs, I said that the size wasn't possible with Indian demography, considering how the NAN were described (very racists against WASP). But of course, it can make sense if they integrate white people.


I'm not sure I would love to have a game with a reboot. I'm not sure I would want to go into it. Probably only if you had something VERY VERY VERY better than what we have.

I m all for keeping SR 20 years legacy. For it's good sides and bad sides.

[Koekepan]

Actually, I NEVER liked the NAN lands as they are written. It made absolutely no sense

Not really. It would just take someone with greater creative talent then is currently working at Catalyst.
Hell, here's my off the cuff explanation on why the US Balkanized as badly as it did:

The people in North Dakota, and other midwestern states absolutely despised what the Federal Government was doing to the Native Americans and revolted. This lead the Southern States and the Midwestern states to start a Second Civil War against Washington DC. The Native Americans in the Midwestern States integrated with the white people and at the same time changed their culture (give and take).

There, that was me thinking for 10 to 15 seconds on a story that makes a whole hell of a lot more sense then the Native Americans bovine excrement that was SR backstory. I would also have it that Florida is COMPLETELY controlled by CAS! None of this Caribbean League owning land. That makes even less sense than the NAN.

Mostly with you, but I actually spent a lot of time in Florida - and various parts of Florida, at that.

I actually liked the breakdown of the southern tip of Florida. Here's why:

The people from Palm Beach (more or less) southwards are not generally simpatico with the rest of Florida, and in fact frequently at odds with them. They are also not all that cool with the rest of the CAS area, politically speaking. It would make more sense for them to become the driving force behind the CL than to knuckle under and become the whipping boy for the rest of the CAS.

So how would it come to pass? Probably a tit-for-tat negotiation. Both sides recognise that they don't want to be bound at the hip. The CAS recognises that they don't want a UCAS outpost there, and offer to let them go provided that they join the CL instead. The UCAS is happy to reduce the extent of the CAS, and agrees to play ball. Everyone goes home with minimal bloodshed.

[JanessaVR]

Actually, I NEVER liked the NAN lands as they are written. It made absolutely no sense

Not really. It would just take someone with greater creative talent then is currently working at Catalyst.
Hell, here's my off the cuff explanation on why the US Balkanized as badly as it did:

The people in North Dakota, and other midwestern states absolutely despised what the Federal Government was doing to the Native Americans and revolted. This lead the Southern States and the Midwestern states to start a Second Civil War against Washington DC. The Native Americans in the Midwestern States integrated with the white people and at the same time changed their culture (give and take).

There, that was me thinking for 10 to 15 seconds on a story that makes a whole hell of a lot more sense then the Native Americans bovine excrement that was SR backstory. I would also have it that Florida is COMPLETELY controlled by CAS! None of this Caribbean League owning land. That makes even less sense than the NAN.

I may steal this. My gaming group has also complained about that periodically over the years. "Where the hell were they hiding all those spare millions of Native Americans?" Ultimately, we've had to just chant the MST3K Mantra and get on with the game, but it's been on my low-pri To Do List for years to try to find at least a bit of a patch for this storyline hole.

[binarywraith]

I may steal this. My gaming group has also complained about that periodically over the years. "Where the hell were they hiding all those spare millions of Native Americans?" Ultimately, we've had to just chant the MST3K Mantra and get on with the game, but it's been on my low-pri To Do List for years to try to find at least a bit of a patch for this storyline hole.

I mean, it's been a canon thing since the start that a some of the NAN population were people who lived in the areas ceded to them that decided to stay. They aren't related by blood, but they had skillsets that were necessary. There's also the part where, IIRC, VITAS killed a lot less of the natives because they were isolated from major population centers.

[KCKitsune]

Mostly with you, but I actually spent a lot of time in Florida - and various parts of Florida, at that.

I actually liked the breakdown of the southern tip of Florida. Here's why:

The people from Palm Beach (more or less) southwards are not generally simpatico with the rest of Florida, and in fact frequently at odds with them. They are also not all that cool with the rest of the CAS area, politically speaking. It would make more sense for them to become the driving force behind the CL than to knuckle under and become the whipping boy for the rest of the CAS.

So how would it come to pass? Probably a tit-for-tat negotiation. Both sides recognise that they don't want to be bound at the hip. The CAS recognises that they don't want a UCAS outpost there, and offer to let them go provided that they join the CL instead. The UCAS is happy to reduce the extent of the CAS, and agrees to play ball. Everyone goes home with minimal bloodshed.

The nations of the Caribbean did NOT have the firepower to resist the CAS. This alone would have had the CAS running roughshod over Caribbean League.

I may steal this. My gaming group has also complained about that periodically over the years. "Where the hell were they hiding all those spare millions of Native Americans?" Ultimately, we've had to just chant the MST3K Mantra and get on with the game, but it's been on my low-pri To Do List for years to try to find at least a bit of a patch for this storyline hole.

And you are welcome to it. Like I said, this was me thinking for 10 to 15 seconds.

I mean, it's been a canon thing since the start that a some of the NAN population were people who lived in the areas ceded to them that decided to stay. They aren't related by blood, but they had skillsets that were necessary. There's also the part where, IIRC, VITAS killed a lot less of the natives because they were isolated from major population centers.

But by canon, the Native Americans outnumbered the whites (which does NOT mesh with reality at the point of divergence).

Also VITAS would have killed a LOT MORE native americans BECAUSE they were in concentration camps. Especially something as nastily contagious as VITAS.

Hell, if the US government of the SR world wanted them dead, all they had to do was introduce a few tainted pieces of clothing or food. Then just sit back and watch the show.

[Shev]

I never saw the isolation being listed as the reason, but rather magic. Native medicine men and shamans were among the first magical healers on the Sixth World and so the native population was relatively untouched by VITAS.

That being said, it was also mentioned that a lot of the "tribals" were people who were 1/16 native or something to that effect. Combine that with the previously mentioned "people who were already living there and didn't want to leave" and that's how you end up with a population of millions. It's not a population of millions who look like native Americans, it a a population of millions who can claim some descent from such.

Something I never saw the books mention and wish they had was tribal "purity." You know, the kind of culture that poo-pops marrying anyone thats not pure enough for your parents tastes.

[sk8bcn]

Re-read the NAN 2nd ed book then. They are described there as "pro-indian, WASP get out of here" mentality.

And Isolation was implied as the main reason why they mostely avoided VISTA.

Those facts may have been retconned later on, but back then, that was the reason (2nd 3rd).

[KCKitsune]

Re-read the NAN 2nd ed book then. They are described there as "pro-indian, WASP get out of here" mentality.

And Isolation was implied as the main reason why they mostely avoided VISTA.

Those facts may have been retconned later on, but back then, that was the reason (2nd 3rd).

Wow! Just went I thought FASA couldn't have been dumber. The Native Americans weren't isolated. They were in concentration camps.
Love the game system, but the non-magical background fluff is a big steaming pile of crap.

[freudqo]

Wow! Just went I thought FASA couldn't have been dumber. The Native Americans weren't isolated. They were in concentration camps.
Love the game system, but the non-magical background fluff is a big steaming pile of crap.

SR3's "so it came to pass" chapter only quotes "thousands of indians" going into the concentration camps (concerning the states, it's unclear about Canada for numbers).

Can someone sum up exactly what is the problem with the NAN demographics as described in the books? I found this stating that there were around 5 millions natives in the US in 2010 (3 millions declaring to be only of native descent): https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-10.pdf . It doesn't seem like such a low figure.

[Xasten]

The NAN population issues can easily be solved by simply modifying the lore to have the real life / SR timeline divergence start in the 1800's.

Just have an IE or some mysterious background player pulling a few strings or something to preserve the population and encourage some level of growth from the 1800's forward. There's tons of mechanisms by which this could happen. They could still be on reservations, impoverished, and all the other things that make the NAN formation happen.

I get that the established lore has a numbers problem, but this is hardly unaddressable.

[JanessaVR]

SR3's "so it came to pass" chapter only quotes "thousands of indians" going into the concentration camps (concerning the states, it's unclear about Canada for numbers).

Can someone sum up exactly what is the problem with the NAN demographics as described in the books? I found this stating that there were around 5 millions natives in the US in 2010 (3 millions declaring to be only of native descent): https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-10.pdf . It doesn't seem like such a low figure.

3 out of almost 309 million total population by that same census, yet they somehow hold a rather large chunk of the U.S. That's the issue.

That's a little "thin on the ground" to hold such a large territory. And they sure as heck wouldn't be filling it up to typical population levels.

[Moirdryd]

The problem with the above numbers is that you'r looking through a purely Human lens. A chunk of the NAN are MetaHumans especially things like Cascade Crow (predominantly Orks) and Tir Tairngire (Elves, yep the Tir was a founding NAN nation) a lot of whom may very well not look like Native Americans per say. It's also possible that the mana spiking has those of tribal descent expressing more to that heritage than their other genetic markers and this gets overlooked with all the Trolls and Orks showing up along side Elves and Dwarves) and it's entirely reasonable and likely that with the new fascination with magic (although not yet at a government, military and corp level like you see later on) that another New Age spiritualism spreads among populations and the shamanistic paths / tribal styles happened to be popular inspiring people to throw their lot in with the native populace.

[sk8bcn]

there's two different subjects about this: how it could be rewritten to make more sense and what was written.

looking at my french NAN book:

Sioux nation : 31 millions inhabitans, 70% human.

rough translation:

"few inhabitants in the sioux nation cannot find an indien blood in their lineage. Non-indians are immigrants concentrated around cheyenne and working in high technology. [...] But in general englos (or something alike that means poor white americans) are held in low esteem.
"

Ofc, that blood affiliation doesn't make sense: how could you be racist against white ameriacans if half ypour population cannot be distinguished from a white american. I mean your grandmother was indian? Nice, but you still look like a white american.



Pueblo:

11millions, 65% humans

translation :

"pueblo has very few non-indian people. They threw them out applying Denver's treaty by the word."



I'm all for some form of soft reset. For exemple, I would maybe rewritte some of this stuff, including white americans in the NAN and retcon a few things, maybe also add a plot story where UCAS enters war against one of their nations and take it back (or something like this) but well, the 2nd ed writtings sucks.

[freudqo]

3 out of almost 309 million total population by that same census, yet they somehow hold a rather large chunk of the U.S. That's the issue.

That's a little "thin on the ground" to hold such a large territory. And they sure as heck wouldn't be filling it up to typical population levels.

Errr… Didn't they do some kind of war to do so, that they won with overwhelming powers which made negociations clearly in their favour?

Additionally it's not such a large chunk if you look at a population density map.

Sure, they can't pretend to the same level of "filling up". But does it really matter?

I clearly admit that the demographics quoted in the NAN books are crazy and clearly over the top. This is the only thing I regret. Otherwise, 3 million people using magic kicking out a whole bunch of non native out of half of the USA doesn't disturb me that much. The awakening is an event that's supposed to be above any other in the world humanity. Such a population displacement is huge, but fits the context…

Edit: @sk8bcn: I looked at the original version, and your translation is quite good. The demographics they use are clearly wrong. The retcon I would do would only be a change in these numbers…

[JanessaVR]

Errr… Didn't they do some kind of war to do so, that they won with overwhelming powers which made negociations clearly in their favour?

Additionally it's not such a large chunk if you look at a population density map.

Sure, they can't pretend to the same level of "filling up". But does it really matter?

I clearly admit that the demographics quoted in the NAN books are crazy and clearly over the top. This is the only thing I regret. Otherwise, 3 million people using magic kicking out a whole bunch of non native out of half of the USA doesn't disturb me that much. The awakening is an event that's supposed to be above any other in the world humanity. Such a population displacement is huge, but fits the context…

Edit: @sk8bcn: I looked at the original version, and your translation is quite good. The demographics they use are clearly wrong. The retcon I would do would only be a change in these numbers…

Well, your ability to suspend disbelief exceeds mine. I like my fiction to make a little more sense than this.

[freudqo]

Well, your ability to suspend disbelief exceeds mine. I like my fiction to make a little more sense than this.

What exactly breaks it?

Overwhelming magical warfare surely could give those nations 20 to 30 years of peace for them to have a huge population growth. Going from 5 millions since some of them would accept people of partial native ascent, they could well be 20 millions by 2060.

[KCKitsune]

Well, your ability to suspend disbelief exceeds mine. I like my fiction to make a little more sense than this.

His ability to suspend disbelief is orders of magnitude greater than mine. MANY orders of magnitude.


I get what FASA was after when they wrote Shadowrun... I mean they had this big book of tropes and when one of the designers asked the Lead Designer, "Hey boss which one of these should we use?" His reply was to pick up the book, look through a few pages and then "All of them."


I understand that a divided United States makes more sense for a 'Runner to disappear into, but honestly, some of the ideas that FASA had were just plain dumb. Case in point, the Caribbean League. A bunch of small islands are going to militarily contest the CAS? I would love to know what drugs FASA was on when they thought of that garbage.

[Moirdryd]

That purely comes down to what resources the CAS had available at the time and what responses it could or even wanted to muster. History is full of far stranger events, I can't find the actual thing now but someone once did an experiment with taking actual historical events, dressing them up as fantasy fiction and presenting them to people and found several were discounted as impossible or massively improbably because X group would obviously respond in Y way.

[KCKitsune]

That purely comes down to what resources the CAS had available at the time and what responses it could or even wanted to muster. History is full of far stranger events, I can't find the actual thing now but someone once did an experiment with taking actual historical events, dressing them up as fantasy fiction and presenting them to people and found several were discounted as impossible or massively improbably because X group would obviously respond in Y way.

The CAS must have had enough firepower that the UCAS didn't want to fight them. If they didn't then the UCAS would have just stomped on them hard.

Also we are talking the Caribbean Islands. Their "military" might be some PT boats.

[freudqo]

His ability to suspend disbelief is orders of magnitude greater than mine. MANY orders of magnitude.

Because you need ORDERS OF MAGNITUDES of suspension of disbelief differential to go from "magic is back, there are goblins trolls and elves" to "american natives using overwhelming magic firepower only they master kick out non-natives from the least populated part of North America". Really, that's such a huge step to take.

[KCKitsune]

Because you need ORDERS OF MAGNITUDES of suspension of disbelief differential to go from "magic is back, there are goblins trolls and elves" to "american natives using overwhelming magic firepower only they master kick out non-natives from the least populated part of North America". Really, that's such a huge step to take.

Biggest difference Freudgo, is that magic doesn't exist in reality and therefore anything that happens because of magic is OK. Who's to say what would happen if magic DID come back?


Peoples of the world, governments, and technology on the other hand are KNOWN quantities and therefore we know how they'll react. We have an idea of where technology is going and can understand that having someone saying in 2050 we'll discover warp drive is asinine. Governments are pretty much the same way.