Shadowrun 6, What needs to be changed? Options

[binarywraith]

OK, I read your post in that link you sent and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the link.

Maybe the explanation on why the restrictions I laid out happen is because the hacking is being done, as you said, in AR rather than VR.

There is only one thing that I might disagree with you about VR: In SR Icons have become standardized, and so the Deck doesn't have to download EVERY bit of data. It only has to pull up an icon from its database. If you're in a node and to get through to another node you have to pass a security checkpoint, the host might say "Show a castle with the drawbridge down and the gate down." IC can be represented by "Show a knight in full armor and drawn sword in from of the gate"

Your argument falls apart with the simple fact that, per the source material, the vast majority of major systems are sculpted by the 2070's. They aren't using the standard UMS iconography anymore, if they ever did. Aztechnology and Renraku particularly haven't since the 2050's. Unless you're running a reality filter, of course, and even then the deck's doing all the work of translating UMS into your personalized metaphor, but that doesn't mean it doesn't pull in the actual icons.

[Koekepan]

Your argument falls apart with the simple fact that, per the source material, the vast majority of major systems are sculpted by the 2070's. They aren't using the standard UMS iconography anymore, if they ever did. Aztechnology and Renraku particularly haven't since the 2050's. Unless you're running a reality filter, of course, and even then the deck's doing all the work of translating UMS into your personalized metaphor, but that doesn't mean it doesn't pull in the actual icons.

If you're going strictly by RAW, you're right, but if we're looking at a reshaping, or an outright reboot, then KCKitsune's thoughts have some merit.

I'm inclined to say that ASIST has to be an interface, rather than an end-to-end protocol, because that level of network demand must be superfluous to the actual facts communicated.

[KCKitsune]

Sure, in that case you're going for the case where the deck is presenting a fancy interface, in which case equivalent attacks should be doable using other interfaces. Your best argument then for the value of ASIST is some kind of immediacy, in which case wireless offers an immediate argument for latency, unreliability, interference and so on leading to less point using ASIST, as opposed to simple AR or VR or even a tortoise terminal.

Hence the reason I said that a commlink will only EVER give you 2d6 initiative. A full on cyberdeck with a hardwire connection will allow you to get to 5d6 if you're rocking the right hardware.

Your argument falls apart with the simple fact that, per the source material, the vast majority of major systems are sculpted by the 2070's. They aren't using the standard UMS iconography anymore, if they ever did. Aztechnology and Renraku particularly haven't since the 2050's. Unless you're running a reality filter, of course, and even then the deck's doing all the work of translating UMS into your personalized metaphor, but that doesn't mean it doesn't pull in the actual icons.

They must publish** that iconography because if they didn't then nobody other than them could use it.

** == or it got stolen... hell that can be the purpose of a Shadowrun... Aztechnology has just updated their Iconography and Ares would really, Really, REALLY like to have a copy for an op they have planned, but don't want to tip their hand just yet... so send in the 'Runners to nab a copy...

[Moirdryd]

I think nonDecker hacking deserves a place in the game, but it deserves to be low key cybercrime type stuff. Messing up a Corporate MatrixSite for Stuffershack or Weapons World. Databombing a ForumSite or FanSite. That's the kind of stuff the script kiddies should be ripping around with. Any low grade mom and pop corp sites or minor brand sites that kind of thing. Possibly hacking some minor exec's commlink or breaking a cheap Wireless security network (temporarily before any Matrix response retaliates). It adds scope to the Matrix but it also means Deckers come into their own through a mixture of Talent and Skill and the Tools provided (to whit a Cyberdeck). Just as EchoMirage was the most effective option than any of the Non-VR programmers could hope to be. Potentially that could even be represented by a shift in relevant skills and where one aids another.

[Koekepan]

I think nonDecker hacking deserves a place in the game, but it deserves to be low key cybercrime type stuff. Messing up a Corporate MatrixSite for Stuffershack or Weapons World. Databombing a ForumSite or FanSite. That's the kind of stuff the script kiddies should be ripping around with. Any low grade mom and pop corp sites or minor brand sites that kind of thing. Possibly hacking some minor exec's commlink or breaking a cheap Wireless security network (temporarily before any Matrix response retaliates). It adds scope to the Matrix but it also means Deckers come into their own through a mixture of Talent and Skill and the Tools provided (to whit a Cyberdeck). Just as EchoMirage was the most effective option than any of the Non-VR programmers could hope to be. Potentially that could even be represented by a shift in relevant skills and where one aids another.

I think that the easier approach may be caps and penalties.

Think about it this way:

New kid on the 'trix, has a few scripts, using a tortoise. Can exploit whatever his scripts can exploit (unpatched, cheapass crap) no faster than the tortoise can run. Capped by tortoise speed, has low skills, and penalty for crappy script kit.

Sharper scripter. Has a fat library of scripts, including investigative ones. Higher skills, knows various strategies. Has a decent commlink, with AR. Capped by commlink speed, but better than a half-wrecked tortoise in a charity office somewhere. Modest skills, but a fat stack of scripts makes work easier.

Security smarts. Has a fat library of scripts, but also can write more scripts to do things like fire off successive waves of attack automatically. Can fire off IC, given access to a computer beefy enough to actually run it, but isn't capable of having much of an icon himself, without a deck. Has a high-end commlink, uses either AR, VR, or cold sim with a neural net. Good skills give a reasonable dice pool, depending on the interface and network path. Still at his best when attacking known quantities, but also has the experience to do solid footwork.

All in. Sure, has the IC to do live attacks (essentially, scripts + live morphing), has a neural implant and hot sim from a hand-modded deck (this illegal drek isn't on the shelves at Stuffer Shack, chummer) so can climb into the Matrix and tangle with the IC directly, when on a direct physical link. If sitting somewhere on a mesa east of CalFree off a satellite? Might as well type, because hot sim buys you no advantages whatsoever.

Observe: this approach allows for the young, the broke and the inexperienced to be productive, while affording them a smooth career path, assuming they survive. It means that a team just starting out doesn't have a Fastjack clone ready to rumble with the big boys, opening all the doors and blinding all the enemies for them, but it also means that the barrens kid with a cheap commlink and an AR glove might one day be the new Fastjack.

[Iduno]

I'll let other people figure out how to make decking useful without needing combat hacking. Maybe hacking biomonitors to prevent alarms or convincing the security computer that the guard is still alive and patrolling.

It would simplify chargen and cyberlimbs. It would stop ork and trolls metatypes from being charged for a stat, Strength, that only a very small number of characters benefit from, and is still mostly inferior to the same investment in Agility (which only increase average damage by 1 every 3 attributes, but also increase chances to hit with both melee and ranged attacks). It would lessen the cost of melee combat build, which as far as I can tell has not been the most overpowered type of characters around lately.

Keeping it would... allow people to play characters that are good at resisting damage or dealing melee damage without being forced into being good in the other?

Agreed. Combining strength and body might make them just as good as agility (used for everything) or reaction (initiative, dodge, driving). I'd say charisma is the same. It's good for faces and...one type of mage that could easily be moved to another stat. If all but one character on most teams is using it as a dump stat, combine it with another dump stat (Logic or willpower for mental stats?) to make them at least moderately useful.

[Koekepan]

I'll let other people figure out how to make decking useful without needing combat hacking. Maybe hacking biomonitors to prevent alarms or convincing the security computer that the guard is still alive and patrolling.



Agreed. Combining strength and body might make them just as good as agility (used for everything) or reaction (initiative, dodge, driving). I'd say charisma is the same. It's good for faces and...one type of mage that could easily be moved to another stat. If all but one character on most teams is using it as a dump stat, combine it with another dump stat (Logic or willpower for mental stats?) to make them at least moderately useful.

I don't have a problem with dump stats existing, especially if they have niche usefulness. I'm OK with there being a differentiation between toughness and strength.

Before any such determination is made, an editorial/design team needs to convene and carefully ask themselves what sort of game/milieu/spirit is intended, and which rules would support such a game. They might go either way on the stats thing, based on that. This alone will not make or break the game.

[Trillinon]

I'll let other people figure out how to make decking useful without needing combat hacking. Maybe hacking biomonitors to prevent alarms or convincing the security computer that the guard is still alive and patrolling.



Agreed. Combining strength and body might make them just as good as agility (used for everything) or reaction (initiative, dodge, driving). I'd say charisma is the same. It's good for faces and...one type of mage that could easily be moved to another stat. If all but one character on most teams is using it as a dump stat, combine it with another dump stat (Logic or willpower for mental stats?) to make them at least moderately useful.

You could merge Strength and Body, and Charisma and Willpower. You could even recombine Agility and Reaction, and Logic and Intuition, as they were in SR1-3. Leaving you with four attributes, Body, Agility, Willpower, Logic. Which is pretty simple. You could even merge Magic, Resonance, and Edge into a single attribute, called Spirit. Everyone has it, but only the awakened can use it for Magic.

The best thing is that it establishes the right attitude. Every Stat block leads with its BAWLS.

[binarywraith]

I'll let other people figure out how to make decking useful without needing combat hacking. Maybe hacking biomonitors to prevent alarms or convincing the security computer that the guard is still alive and patrolling.



Agreed. Combining strength and body might make them just as good as agility (used for everything) or reaction (initiative, dodge, driving). I'd say charisma is the same. It's good for faces and...one type of mage that could easily be moved to another stat. If all but one character on most teams is using it as a dump stat, combine it with another dump stat (Logic or willpower for mental stats?) to make them at least moderately useful.

Charisma is only a dump stat if you allow it to be as a GM. One of the things that needs a lot more push in the 'How to GM' sections is that the only reason super-specialized scaling breaking builds work is if you let players only ever have to make rolls against their best stats. No character should be expected to be able to survive as an autist.

[Glyph]

No player should have to make an autist, just to be good at a non-face specialty. From SR4 onwards, as Attributes became worth more, they also became more limited at char-gen. I think social skills need to be dramatically overhauled. There should be a few social skills to quantify things like lying to someone, bluffing someone, etc. But one mistake was making the face a specialty - one, that meant they made it have similar opportunity costs as other specialties (several high Attributes, lots of skills, and expenditure of money, magical ability, or both), and two, that meant that going against a face is like hacking against a decker or getting into a gunfight with a street samurai. Add to that some vagueness as to what social skills actually do, add in bonuses that can simply overwhelm penalties that should drastically curtail them, and let social skills affect PCs, and, well, you have the current mess.

Personally, I think Charisma would fit into Intuition best if you combine Attributes; social savvy and reading people fits in well with noticing things and going with your instincts. I think social skills should, like hacking in the discussion above, be easier to buy into, and use, at a non-face level.

[Tanegar]

This is a good example of the importance of considering changes to rules as a whole, and not searching for a stand-alone correction for each issue. The sentence you quoted in the first place was part of a paragraph.

I did actually get that, thanks. You still haven't addressed my point: one of your stated methods (imposing a karma cost for lowering Essence) does precisely nothing to reach your stated goal (alleviating street samurai's dependence on nuyen).

[Moirdryd]

That's something else I think needs looking at and reconsidering. Roles, Specialities and Archetypes... These should go back to being starting points and Concept inspirations instead of Classes in all but name. They should still exist but there should be more breadth brought back with them with each Archetype talking about the possibilities within itself and character creation talking about those other avenues too. Thinks like the Private Eye, Weapons Specialist, Combat Decker, Infiltration Expert, the different Mage and Shaman and Adept flavours, Street Samurai, Razor Guys, generalist and focused Rigger concepts, Gangers turned runner and so on. Concepts that mix and blend skill set and Role purposes within the team.

[Koekepan]

Roles are fortunately rather flexible. A face can be an infiltrator. A rigger can be a decker. And a rocker can be a shaman.

Or whatever.

But a better approach may be to reconsider them in terms of what problems they solve. Deckers and infiltrators can be considered in terms of bypassing security. Samurai can be many things from wetwork specialists (snipers, stealthy razors and so on) to security and covering fire.

Perhaps it's the change we need.

[binarywraith]

I think that's a lot of what I'm getting at in trying to kill the single-purpose min-maxing. Having to hit a 'must be this tall to be effective' bar makes a lot of interesting character concepts not considered 'viable' at the table.

[Glyph]

I think that's a lot of what I'm getting at in trying to kill the single-purpose min-maxing. Having to hit a 'must be this tall to be effective' bar makes a lot of interesting character concepts not considered 'viable' at the table.

Single-purpose min-maxing is understandable, when the premise of the game is teams of specialists, when specialties have a high opportunity cost, and when so many tests have that "bar".

There are several ways to address this - lowering the starting maximums (freeing up more points for other things), giving more resources for character creation, or tweaking the rules so that lower skills are more viable.

Personally, I favor giving more resources for character creation, because I have seen that in a campaign I was in that used pre-errata karmagen. With extra resources to play with, characters were comfortably good at their specialties and then branched out. There was less min-maxing.

[Moirdryd]

I'm a fan of a little of column B and column C on your suggestions there. Little more character resources and something that makes lower skill ranks usable. Maybe instead of skill groups there's a Background package that grants a set if skills and ranks that reflect that character concept. Eg: Street Samurai presented as a couple of Close Combat Skills, a Ranged Skill, a Street Etiquette, a Cybertech, a Bushido and a Bike skill (as a random selection), a Razorguy (or Girl) may be more focused on implant based close combat, underworld skills, stealth...

Needs work I know, especially as i dont want to encourage classes... just posting in passing...

[Kovu Muphasa]

Starting Packages can work with that, look at the one from Twilight: 2000, SR5 Run Faster or MechWarrior 4. Maybe not the current numbers, but something similar.

[Moirdryd]

I was, strangely, cleaving to somewhere between the L5R Schools and the Backgrounds from D&D5e. Possibly an Origins route or something where maybe there are 3 package options which you select as you come up with your background (Age of Arthur does something similar in fact). Like you're playing a Street Samurai who used to be a Ganger from the Barrens (giving you the Street Sam, Ganger and Street Life origin skill packs) or maybe you're an ExCorp Wizkid GoGanger (so, Ganger again along with Corp Life and Arcane Education packs) and so on.

[Nath]

- Reduce augmentations cost to mass-market level price. Introduce a karma cost for lowering Essence. Probably the most controversial move, but I really think it is the only way to get out of the "money vs. karma" debate (if the rigger gear issue is also addressed, it may even be possible to reach a point where you could offer a quick chargen system that handwaves the nuyen aspect).

I did actually get that, thanks. You still haven't addressed my point: one of your stated methods (imposing a karma cost for lowering Essence) does precisely nothing to reach your stated goal (alleviating street samurai's dependence on nuyen).

Sure, the only thing it does is allowing to reach this goal without creating an even bigger issue.

There are four possibilities to allow a character a new feature: automatically, with a requirement, with a cost, or with a risk. There is a fine line between requirement and cost, as "paying the cost" could be considered as a requirement, and reaching a requirement is likely to have a cost (even if it's only time). You can call it "non-cost requirement" is you want. The difference is that a cost involve consuming one or several resources that cannot be spent on something else.

Older editions of Shadowrun had, for instance, a Karma Reserve based on a requirement: once you earnt X karma, one was added to the Karma Reserve. Summoning spirit comes with a risk of suffering wounds. There are also a number of negative qualities (that is, more build points) or wireless bonus that come with a risk that's left completey at the hand of the gamemaster.

And there things that comes with a cost. The two obvious commodities to spend people will think of are nuyen and karma. But obviously Essence is another.

Currently, augmentations have a nuyen and an Essence cost. The nuyen cost may be too high. Or too low. It just doesn't matter because there is no way it can be set at an appropriate level. Because nuyen, unlike karma or Essence, belongs to the setting. Authors and gamemasters need nuyen in the setting to have PC and NP buy or sell groceries, sport cars, corporate stock or shipment of narcotic substances. What seems like an appropriate nuyen cost for one gamemaster at one point may suddenly cease to be if the PC get the opportunity to steal and fence a Ferrari. There is a game balance issue here that currently requires changes to the setting and the stories, and that's the very opposite of what should be done.

People have been searching for an equilibrium for almost three decades, and obviously none have found one that satisfied everyone so far.

My point is that the nuyen cost for augmentation should be shoot to totally unsignificant levels because there is no satisfying equilibrium to be found. But having only an Essence cost is not going to work, for completely different reason. Essence is a resource that character receive a fixed amount at chargen and cannot increase later (leaving HMHVV aside). No progression here. You'd just take everything at chargen. So if I intend to make the nuyen cost unsignificant and still have a character progression for street sams, I need to introduce another cost. I propose karma. It is one possibility to have a mathematical formulae linking the Essence and karma costs, but it could also be completely different values set for each augmentations.

[Koekepan]

Another thing might be to (and this is more organisational) create a solid factbook for all contributing writers.

There's nothing wrong with having freelancers, and combining multiple sources, but as a practical matter they need to be on the same page. This should greatly reduce the incidence of confusing contradictions in writing that have resulted in so very many errata.

Why fix in errata what you can get right the first time?

[carmachu]

What I want in 6th edition shadowrun is simple: I want the quality inshadowrun, both writing, editing, fluff, Continuity....to be the same quality that comes out of their battletech line. I own more then a few BT books from CGL and they are way better quality then the shadowrun line.

[Mantis]

I'm with you there. I think we all are really. Editorial and cleanup has been really lacking in the SR line. A fact book would certainly help with this but equally important is the editors doing their job (and the editor shouldn't also be the writer) and someone making sure the edited copy makes it to print.

[Iduno]

You could merge Strength and Body, and Charisma and Willpower. You could even recombine Agility and Reaction, and Logic and Intuition, as they were in SR1-3. Leaving you with four attributes, Body, Agility, Willpower, Logic. Which is pretty simple. You could even merge Magic, Resonance, and Edge into a single attribute, called Spirit. Everyone has it, but only the awakened can use it for Magic.

The best thing is that it establishes the right attitude. Every Stat block leads with its BAWLS.

Nah, currently every stat block leads with agility. Quickness got broken into 2 stats because those 2 stats are still better than the other stats.

Shadowrun is about a team getting in and getting out alive, usually through sneaking (including decking here) and talking, then fighting. Everyone needs to be able to at least sneak (agility) and fight (agility or magic), plus usually something else. I'm sure the attitude of Shadowrun *could* be that those are unimportant, but that isn't anywhere near close to what Shadowrun is now.

Agility is the only stat important to everyone currently. Everyone having a dump stat isn't necessarily bad, as long as it isn't always the same stat. Not every stat needs to be equally important for everyone, but other than a rigger in a van, I can't think of anyone whose primary stats aren't agility + something else or just agility. Spread skills out, divide or combine stats, whatever. Give a reason for everything to matter to most characters, and you have better balance and better variety.

Combining charisma skills into the other mental stats could help improve the other mental stats. For example: logic (knowledge of the topic) or intuition (knowing people) for lying.

Also agreeing on better editing (and putting edits into the books) and giving everyone something to do in and out of combat.

[Flaser]

On hacking: I think we should first focus on the elephant in the room, non-viable encryption. Anyone with a degree in comp-sci will tell you that without viable encryption our wireless world is impossible... but so is a wired one, since you'd have to rely on pre-shared OTP keys to do all communication... however for our jacked-in hackers/deckers to be viable we *need* breakable encryption.

To solve this Gordian know I suggest going with Koekepan's suggestion and treating ASIST as more than a fancy VR technology.

Is ASIST an interface that lets you manage and control a hugely fat datastream more efficiently by hijacking your brain with a metaphor-based sensorium

This means that the "wetware"-CPU in your skull, i.e. your brain has some peculiar properties when it comes to solving math problems that give computers a hard time. Maybe the brain has the potential to act as a natural quantum computer, maybe we can simply "feel" the right fields of numbers to solve a problem. The end result is that when a hacker jacks in, he not only gets a funky interface, but parts of his brain are used for computing tasks. Maybe most of the VR is just a way to represent what he's doing to his consciousness in a way that doesn't dissociate his personality.

As a result most encryption methods can be broken, but only if you're willing to hook up the living brain of a person. This would also mean that hacker/decker skills are truly skill like shooting or swimming. It's not just maths and some programming knowledge. It's a painfully acquired aptitude toward "thinking" the right way that can't be book learned, or can only be learned to the same degree as you'd do meditation or the art of parkour.

The end result is, any communication that doesn't use pre-shared One-Time-Pad keys can be cracked... but there's a world of difference between the neophyte l33t k1d who's doing his first rodeo vs. a living legend like Fast Jack. Also, this doesn't mean that conventional hacking is in-viable... it's very much an option. However to be *effective* it needs massive HW & SW resources... hence you can still hack shitty security on a commlink, but anything that's actually put together will call for massive processing power... or putting your brain on the line.

[binarywraith]

Single-purpose min-maxing is understandable, when the premise of the game is teams of specialists, when specialties have a high opportunity cost, and when so many tests have that "bar".

There are several ways to address this - lowering the starting maximums (freeing up more points for other things), giving more resources for character creation, or tweaking the rules so that lower skills are more viable.

Personally, I favor giving more resources for character creation, because I have seen that in a campaign I was in that used pre-errata karmagen. With extra resources to play with, characters were comfortably good at their specialties and then branched out. There was less min-maxing.

I think the thing a lot of players miss out on is that the premise is not that PCs should succeed on every test.

You should, as a player, be doing stuff your character may or may not succeed at, or why are we bothering with mechanics anyway? We could just shoot craps instead if it's the joy of a good dice roll.