Salted Wounds [OOC], a Deep Black Sea game Options

[Volker]

“Shooting at your own position was very dangerous. Not to mention you dented my baby.“

Again, bnc does NOT shoot at a heavily armored vehicle. Please don't just ignore what I write. The character is mine to play and while it's okay of you day this or that is impossible, you can't just change my actions to ones I don't do.

EDIT: Sorry, I made that sound harsher than necessary. Maybe I'm touchy in this regard but I really don't like OoC-IC interferences and somebody else (e.g. the GM) playing my character or altering their actions (unless they are under the influence of drugs, fever, spells, etc.), is among the most severe OoC-IC violations I know. It's not so much about the results but about how a character behaves or doesn't. bnc wouldn't have shot at the van.

I once let the GM decide my character's action in a special situation and he decided something I'd never have done. It took months of roleplaying until my character was again viewed in the way she was. Maybe I'm overreacting but it was a very annoying experience to have people see my character different than to what she is, and even before that happened I was strongly against OoC influences. So I'd ask you to kindly edit the part about ditching the van. The rest, of course, is absolutely valid.

Also, happy holidays (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Gilga]

I'll wait for it to be resolved.

[Jack_Spade]

@Volker

I'm sorry, but from my perspective this is exactly what your actions IP had as a consequence:

The spirit was inside the closed car. And even if you did not accept it, both bnc and your bot acted at -10 ini.
You shot at the spirit inside the car before your bot had the chance to evacuate you: Your command for James was given in the same ini phase when you opened fire.

How else can I interprete that?

[Volker]

As I explained before: I was under the impression that I had line of sight, as I explicitly moved the drone back in order to defend myself against a spirit materializing inside the van. Whether this happens through windows, doors or because the drone is inside the van, was not clarified. You can, as GM, of course say that the action I intended to do is not possible the way I imagined it, but you can't just alter it to your perception of the situation. I even delayed an action for that specific event! How clear can I make that I'm going to shoot at the fragging thing?

It just feels like I'm not in control of my character. I declared over several posts that this is the situation I was afraid from, even withdrew the drone for that specific event, prepared myself, and then I'm not only surprised (without even getting a surprise roll) but I also can't decide how I act in a situation you obviously saw different than I did. You know, I'm used to be able to discuss things with a GM, and if the situation is unclear, of course it's the GM's call what the situation looks like, but the way we play it in my group, I at least have a call how I then react otherwise.

See, from my perspective, there are several ways to deal with the limited possibilites of interaction through pbp:
- either everyone precisely describes every detail of their actions - including you as a GM. That's fine by me, but then we have to slow down considerably.
- or unclear situations get cleared beforehand. In this case, you would have said "You can't shoot directly at the spirit, but you can try and shoot it through the van." to which I would have said "No, I'll just open the doors like I stated two posts ago"
- or you just assume an action but give me a veto if you do (even so, the closest approximation to what I wrote would have been a delayed action until the door opens)

But just interpreting my preparations and my actions in a way you see fit but doesn't match my intentions (or even my descriptions), not claryfying things, altering my actions and then let consequences of actions I never declared arise, is not a way I have fun playing with. I have been overruled on a couple of occasions now (like, when you fought out the whole end fight of Panzerknacker without allowing me to act) and while I enjoy your GMing style in general, your fantasy, your stories, your creativity, your NPCs and your usually very beneficial way, I must insist that I can play my character myself. I love bnc, and someone else steering her is just a red line.

[Jack_Spade]

First: At no time did I change any action you described or controlled your character. I merely applied your stated course of action to the actual situation according to the rules.

What gave you the impression that you had line of sight? I pretty clearly stated in my description of the van that there were no windows. Also, I stated that the corpselight spirit was invisible in its non-astral form. So even while it was manifesting, you only had the sensor feed of the drone you were jumped in to work with - and that couldn't pick up the signature. For all you knew, the shadow spirit was blocking your exit.

The reason I stated that everyone that isn't astrally perceiving is "late to the combat" was the fact that the action started on the astral. There just wasn't anything for you to react on. Your attack happened in the same action that you gave James your order, which makes it obvious that he couldn't have evacuated you before you started shooting. bnc ignored Anna's very reasonable suggestion to get out of VR and switch to AR, which would actually have allowed you to escape in the same action. (But even then you'd have been in melee range of the spirit and got an intercept attack - which I assumed was the reason you started firing regardless)

I agree that action economy is very difficult to manage with so many people acting. Which is why you have to state every action clearly in terms of necessary action types (free, simple and complex) and not expect a stated string of actions to survive beyond its first link. It's alright to state intent, but don't get angry if the situation doesn't play out exactly as planed.

On to resolving this clusterfrag:

From now on I'd ask all of you to post your actions in the following format:

Example:
Ini: 24
Free Action: Switch Firing mode
Simple action: Command Drone: Open door, carry me outside while covering me from attack
Simple action: Three round burst at Manifested Spirit inside van if I have line of sight, otherwise I just aim

Drone Ini: 19
Move to Van door
Complex action: open Van door


End of my first Combat Phase


Hopefully that way there won't be any confusion as to what is and isn't happening





As for the end of Panzerknacker: I'm sorry you feel resentment for that, but if I remember correctly, you were unable to post for one/a few day(s) while the climactic action scene happened. Real Life comes first, but that doesn't mean everyone else is not allowed to post. You had bnc stashed out of harms way, so I didn't feel you were unduly impacted by not participating directly, especially after the whole story revolved heavily around hacking, drone jacking and gathering matrix information.

[Volker]

ad First: Given, technically you didn't "change" it, you just interpreted in a way that makes it absurd, illogical, pointless and random. But yeah, technically it was the action I specified.

ad What gave me the impression? I missed the fact that you stated somewhere that there are no windows, that's my bad. What gave me the impression is that you didn't mention that I can't delay an action to shoot at the thing when it pops up nor that even by moving back the drone to intercept the spirit in the van, I can't intercept the spirit. From your point of view, I must have over the course of several posts just randomly performed pointless actions. I actually laughed when the spirit just jumped into the trap I prepared for it and told everyone about, and was then absolutely surprised that that's not remotely the case.

ad Surprise: I'm absolutely okay with being late in combat if there's nothing to react to. But "surprise" is a game term that doesn't apply. That makes things confusing. Also, it means something else entirely.

ad new format: I absolutely thing we should do it that way but I'd like to point out that it wouldn't have helped anything in this situation as the problem was that the two of us had differenct conceptions of the situation and once I/we realized that we saw the situation differently, I had no chance to state what I want to do. If you assume you have LOS, you don't write "if I have LOS". I will try and be more precise in the future, however.

ad end of Panzerknacker: Forgotten. I just don't want it to become a habit. If you play SR in RL and someone receives a phone call that lasts over an hour, you wouldn't just continue the fight and let their character stand nearby, drooling, would you?

[Thanee]

The reason I stated that everyone that isn't astrally perceiving is "late to the combat" was the fact that the action started on the astral.

Yeah, I figured that... using the term "surprised" (which is something different) was a little confusing there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

About the drone attack van thingie... I do agree with Volker, that you should not have the drone shoot through the van (since that is just a dumb thing to do; bnc has a Logic of 8; she might be a lot of things, but dumb ain't one of them... yet you kinda let her act like she was).

If you see an action that makes no sense in your eyes, it might very well be a case of misunderstanding or different perceptions of the situation. Better to ask/clarify instead of making assumptions and jumping to conclusions, I think.

Pointing out the actual actions could certainly help to make things a little clearer.

Or adding conditionals, like "if I can get LoS to the spirit, shoot; otherwise wait".

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Jack_Spade]

The point is, it wasn't pointless, it was reckless. The rifle is high powered enough to pierce the armor with a good roll (it was only one DV away from doing so). And with the wall shot the spirit did not get his 20 dice to defend against the attack.
It had a real chance of success - that's why I didn't give my usual warning. And why Eliza didn't call it dumb but dangerous.
By the rules there was no particular danger to the character and it made sense, so I let this action flow as stated. Heck, I've used the "shoot through the wall" trick often enough myself to accept this as a valid tactic.

bnc has a history of wanting to do things her way and not wanting to wait for others (you could say she likes to go with the head through the wall). I totally saw it within her personality to rely on her instincts and her ability to calculate the shot even without a direct visual to try it - especially since she felt under immediate threat. Great intelligence doesn't prevent you from making emotional decisions. And I certainly don't want to railroad you

[Gilga]

.

[Jack_Spade]

@gilga
I think you posted that in the wrong thread

[Volker]

It's all right. You did what you thought best and I didn't like the output. Things like that happen. Next time both of us will have learned from this incident and will do better. For me, the important part wasn't whether this was a good idea or not but whether bnc would have deemed it a good idea, which she certainly wouldn't have (even if it maybe was), which again you couldn't have known because from what you observed from her, it was a valid assumption. We miscommunicated in this regard and the outcome was something awkward. I'm sure, next time something like this happens you will ask before writing an interpretation and I will in turn try to be more specific about what exactly I'm doing at which point of time.

more importantly: I cannot use First Aid on drain, can I? I'm pretty sure the CRB says no, but IIRC Thanee somewhere said "luckily you can use First Aid on drain", so now I'm insecure.

[Gilga]

I am under the impression that you cannot heal drain with first aid. If this is not the case than Anna would be excited to be the first patient.

[Jack_Spade]

You can't first aid it away, but you can use medicine to generate bonus dice to the heal check - one hour of rest and some care and you should be good to go again.

[Gilga]

@Jack - you are some kind of dice prophet - check it out:
Rest 1 hour: 14d6t5 9

So if we rest for an hour, Anna becomes new, but given her personality, she'd like to continue without rest.

[Thanee]

Sorry, my bad. Drain cannot be healed by any means, except resting. Thought it was only magical means, that could not heal it, but that must have been SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Volker]

What would I have to buy to lose no dice to improvised medical supplies?
I find no prices for autodoc drones? Where do I find anything about them?

[Jack_Spade]

The easiest would be to install a valkyrie pod - that comes with an R6 Autodoc.
Otherwise, there is the Caduceus Drone which costs more and only rates as R4

To use the medicine skill to aid healing, a medkit suffices.

[Volker]

Is it just Anna ordinary autosoft? Could I upgrade James to be an autodoc?

[Jack_Spade]

Sure, just get him the medicine Autosoft

[Volker]

So, rating 6 would cost me 3000 nuyen and then James would grant me a +6 dice pool modifier on medicine rolls?

[Jack_Spade]

Not exactly: You still need a wireless enabled medkit for him. And you can either get a teamwork bonus through him or you can let it work autonomous (hence autodoc). Although Pilot 4 + Autosoft 6 + Medkit 6 certainly isn't too shabby.

[Thanee]

Medkit only helps with First Aid, though, not Medicine. Might help to counter negative modifiers for equipment, but no bonus dice or anything.

Bye
Thanee

[Jack_Spade]

Just reread Bullets&Bandages and of course it's much more complicated than I remembered:

First of all: You don't need anything else then a high rating Medkit - no matter if you use First Aid or Medicine.
Then, there is a difference between an actual autodoc drone and a drone that just has the appropriate autosoft - namely that the autodoc has some kind of integrated medkit that doesn't give an additional bonus.

Paradoxically, that makes a normal drone better, since it can just use Pilot+Autosoft+Medkit bonus.

If on the other hand you just want to get the support from the Medkit or the Autodoc you don't get more than the +6 wireless bonus from Medkit/Autodoc.
Interesting if you have a medicine or first aid skill of 7 or higher, having multiple drones use teamwork for you might give you a better result (up to your skill in bonus dice)

[Thanee]

Isn't teamwork cumulative with the bonus from the medkit?

Bye
Thanee