Salted Wounds [OOC], a Deep Black Sea game Options

[Thanee]

regarding the stimpatch:
I might be wrong, as I was a hundred times before, but then, considering how often we argued about something, there surely was about a dozen time where I was right, so...
I assume that you treat a stimpatch as a drug with Speed Immediate (technically it's not even a drug or chemical which would disallow to use it in a auto-injector but I guess we all agree that it makes sense to see it as a drug with Speed Immediate).
Still, "Immediate means the effect is applied at the end of the same Combat Turn in which the victim is exposed" (CRB 408). Since Anna took Battery out in phase 20, he is out for the rest of the combat. There's no room for interpretation in this regard, it's clearly defined that there is no chemical in the whole Shadowrun world that works faster than "end of the combat round".

Hmm... That is a good point, actually.

I just re-read the part about drugs and they use the same rules as toxins, so "immediate" really means end of combat turn.

Also something to keep in mind when using drugs like Jazz.

Bye
Thanee

[Jack_Spade]

Gee, quite a lot of stuf to answer, so excuse me if I miss something:

@Stim
It's not a conventional drug described in the drug chapter, but part of the equpipment list of medical supplies like the Trauma patch. It's true that it normally should only be available via patch - it's a house rule on my part to allow any kind of drug to be applied via injection. I'm basing my interpretation of injectable Stim on Crash from Bullets&Bandages. Crash is the injectable form of the trauma patch. For obvious reasons this has to work immediately to prevent someone from dying through overflow damage. So both patches are exempt from the "have to wait til the end of the round" rule of other drugs.
As for it's weaknesses: Using more Stim has diminishing returns. And you already know what the Lazarus Combo contains: One dose of Stim. That's it.

@Biomonitor
The Pain Editor explains that a biomonitor is needed to inform a user about the extend of damage he has received. Likewise the Defiance Ex Shocker has as it's wireless function the ability to inform you about the target's basic health and Condition Monitor (just by sending to darts into you). I extrapolate from that, that biomonitors do tell you exactly how much you've been hurt.
And I'm not counting the argument that it needs time to register things like dropping blood pressure: Humans also need time to register that they have been hurt and don't necessarily collapse immediately. It's abstracted rules were the biomonitor holds an action in the event of major trauma.
Looking at the Ini table both Anna and Battery acted almost in the same instant. If we start to disect how much reaction time each and every piece of equipment should have, the whole system will come crashing down.

@Kamikaze
"Kamikaze users are near-crazed, filled with a feeling of imperviousness and invincibility, exhibiting almost no regard for their own well-being."
I don't think that that implies Battery has to blindly attack - especially not considering that isn't running, but blocking you from attacking Assault. Instead he is still stemming the tide against four attackers.
Compare this to K-10, which does have the Berserk effect:
"Users of this dangerous combat drug automatically go berserk when wounded, in a manner similar to Bear magicians. [...]In the years since, it’s become an infamous source of obituary-linked headlines, from psychotic gang rampages to civilian massacres in distant countries by mercenary troops who have “Tasted the Blood.”"

@Attacking Battery
It certainly makes sense. His defense is down without the shield, his armor is reduced to 6+16 dice and despite everything else Battery has not gone full defense.
If your combat morale has taken a hit by seeing him shrug off your attack, his tactic succeeded.

@power level
All things considered it's me who has operated under lower power level so far. Using those toys has merely leveled the playing field somewhat, preventing you from steamrolling your opposition. And even that didn't prevent that Sharkboy neutered their offence in the first round through a close combat disarm (still a brillant move which I honored by not questioning if a sling would impede the desired result)
As I said before: This fight was optional. Even if it was too hard, there is nothing stopping you from retreating.
You don't have to upgrade your gear, you already have all necessary parts to take them down.

If I had wanted to present you with an impossible fight I'd just have taken 15 mooks with Ingrams, performance enhancing drugs and an itchy trigger finger (which by the way you still might face if you cross a mob of Crusaders)

[Volker]

i have no clue what you're talking about. B&B explicitly states "When using Care Under Fire, the application of a trauma
patch or administration of the drug crash (see New
Drugs, Toxins, and Pathogens, p. 19) allows an injured
character to make a Stabilization Test using their Body
attribute at the end of each Combat Turn."

I don't know how the rules could be any clearer about trauma patches working at the end of the turn.


I'd agree in every other point but considering how seldom we get a single clear rule, you can't simply ignore two explicit wordings because it would make your combo impossible. I also don't understand what these obvious reasons would be.

[Jack_Spade]

The stabilization test occurs at the end of the round, but the effect of the drug has to occur before that, otherwise getting overflow at the end of the round couldn't be halted.

I'm refering to this part:
"In addition, Stabilization Tests can be used to negate the effects of Wound Modifiers, described below. This represents use of pain medications and stimulating combat drugs to get the injured character back on his feet and into the fight. To stabilize an injured runner, the character rendering aid must succeed on a First Aid + Logic (variable, Complex Action) Extended Test."

That shows that with only one complex action you can get someone back into fighting condition, thanks to the drugs working immediately. In my interpretation that's the one (held) complex action the biomonitor+autoinjector performs to apply the stim.

[Volker]

The stabilization test occurs at the end of the round, but the effect of the drug has to occur before that, otherwise getting overflow at the end of the round couldn't be halted.

Why not? En contraire, there is no other time except for the end of the round where the drug can work because before the end of the round, there is no overflow that can be halted.

I'm refering to this part:
"In addition, Stabilization Tests can be used to negate the effects of Wound Modifiers, described below. This represents use of pain medications and stimulating combat drugs to get the injured character back on his feet and into the fight. To stabilize an injured runner, the character rendering aid must succeed on a First Aid + Logic (variable, Complex Action) Extended Test."

That shows that with only one complex action you can get someone back into fighting condition, thanks to the drugs working immediately. In my interpretation that's the one (held) complex action the biomonitor+autoinjector performs to apply the stim.

Forgive me saying so, but this is plain ridiculous. You cannot ignore two passages that distinctly and explicitly state that all drugs (the one we're talking about given as a specific example) only work at the end of the round because there is one special rule in a sub rulebook the fluff text of which seems to imply that drugs and stimulants don't work according to the explicit rules. If anything, the only thing you could derive is that the effects of the Stabilize action only work at the end of the round (which is, by the way, not defined).
Sorry, it's not even a question of realism (and yes, your interpretation is unrealistic), there's just no room for interpretation in the rules in this regard.

[Gilga]

@Jack but with the instant healing you describe, lets say we fill Battery's stun again - won't he be saved by the bio monitor again? (and again, and again...?) Which is why I question if there is any way to disable the man by causing stun damage (in the combat time). Note that stun has no overflow - so he just need to heal 1 stun to keep going.


Now if we are debating the rules...

To be fair the passages Jack cite are not in conflict with what Volker said.
Though, I think that that passage does not imply what Jack suggests.

Applying pain medication is an extended test with complex action threshold so you can apply medication within complex action.
It still does not mean that the effect of the medication happens before the end of the turn. (it does not says when the effect happens). For comparison, a healing spell is a complex action, yet healing takes effect at the end of the combat turn. (and even then, 1 box per turn) I think that applying a medic kit is also a single complex action - yet the effect is only at the end of the combat turn. (and even then, 1 box per turn).

In the autoinjector case, you do not even need a complex action to apply medication. It is a free action (or even no action) if you have a bio-monitor -(that has 0 response time). However, just because you applied treatment very quickly (my image is injecting morphine) does not mean that the drugs take effect as quickly.
A paracetamol is a complex action to take - yet takes about 30 minutes to work my headache. Each drug has a different duration all detailed within the rules, and the fastest duration in SR seems to be the end of the combat turn.

[Thanee]

For comparison, a healing spell is a complex action, yet healing takes effect at the end of the combat turn. (and even then, 1 box per turn)

Not sure where you got that from, but I am pretty sure that is not how it works with healing spells.

AFAIK, you cast the spell and immediately (actual immediately) remove the damage.

You have to sustain the spell (and if you drop it, the damage comes back, also immediately).

Once you sustained the spell for (Force) combat turns, the healing becomes permanent and no further sustaining is necessary.

Bye
Thanee

[Gilga]

Oh wow, did not know that. (perhaps not the best example then) though, somehow I never played it like that with heal.

[Jack_Spade]

Guys, I'm no longer in the mood for this. I'm spending my limited evening time discussing with you about something that is neither worth it, nor generating goodwill. You seem to feel that I'm treating you unfair and the game suffers for this as seen by the no posting in the IP threat.

In my SR world an autoinjector with a dose of stim works like the adrenaline gland bioware.

"Adrenaline pump: [...] you can trigger it as a Free Action. While the pump is active, you ignore injury modifiers and don’t fall unconscious, even if your Stun Condition Monitor is filled.[...]"

If you insist that no drug can work that fast, then I won't change your mind.
I say fine: Have it your way.

Edit incoming

[Gilga]

Yes, well... Let's get playing again.

[SquirrelDude]

Who's turn is it anyway?

[Gilga]

I think it is bnc's turn, I copied the last initiative from Jack - and moved Battery to 0 initiative. (As we already OOC know that he'll rise from the dead soon.

Anna: 20 (Stun Bolt at Battery)
bnc: 17
Aeraziel Spirit Team 15
Mage: 14
Anna's Spirit: 13
Guardian Spirit OP-Force (with Mage): 13
Nova: 12
Bound Spirit OP-Force (Astral): 11
Assault: 6
Sharkboy: 5
Wraith: 3
Battery: 0 (on the floor).

[Volker]

Guys, I'm no longer in the mood for this. I'm spending my limited evening time discussing with you about something that is neither worth it, nor generating goodwill. You seem to feel that I'm treating you unfair and the game suffers for this as seen by the no posting in the IP threat.

In my SR world an autoinjector with a dose of stim works like the adrenaline gland bioware.

"Adrenaline pump: [...] you can trigger it as a Free Action. While the pump is active, you ignore injury modifiers and don’t fall unconscious, even if your Stun Condition Monitor is filled.[...]"

If you insist that no drug can work that fast, then I won't change your mind.
I say fine: Have it your way.

Edit incoming

You know, every once in a while you could just admit that you, too, can be wrong. We all admire your knowledge and your intelligence but I think we all would feel a little bit more comfortable if you wouldn't act as if you were absolutely infallible. I cannot remember a single argument in which you let yourself be swayed by reasoning which I find frustrating. Of course, it's always the GM's call but I think everyone who has ever GMed knows that sometimes mistakes happen and it would be awesome if you could just admit these rare cases and don't force your opinion on us. I don't want to wake memories of bnc stupidly shooting at an armored van for no reason - I'm just saying that I as a player would feel more comfortable if I wouldn't have the feeling that I have to surrender to each and ever whim of my GM, especially if it creates absurd situations that should not happen IC.

And I did not post in the IC thread because the situation was unclear and you taught me quite memorably to never ever again submit a post until the situation is 100 % clarified.

EDIT: by the way, adrenaline is not a drug, especially if it's not inserted by an auto-inserter but produced by the body itself.

@all players

Please keep in mind that none of our characters have the least clue that this guy can (and will) raise. To us, it's a fallen enemy and never have given them much consideration. To eliminate Battery now or take specific precaucious steps would be a strong IC/OoC interference and very bad roleplay. The lazarus combo should still be a powerful combination and should give Battery the possibility to surprise us or even get in our backs.

[Gilga]

Yes, well I am not sure that Jack did us a favor... but we'll see (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Volker]

I think it shouldn't be about doing us a favor. It just should be right.

[Thanee]

@all players

Please keep in mind that none of our characters have the least clue that this guy can (and will) raise. To us, it's a fallen enemy and never have given them much consideration. To eliminate Battery now or take specific precaucious steps would be a strong IC/OoC interference and very bad roleplay. The lazarus combo should still be a powerful combination and should give Battery the possibility to surprise us or even get in our backs.

Yeah, this actually puts me in a bit of a weird situation right now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

My plan is and was for quite a while already, to have Nova put a bullet through his head from point blank, the moment he goes down (just to be sure). She is a little vengeful after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

At this point, it just seems a little "oh, he will be back up soon... make sure that does not happen."

Bye
Thanee

[Jack_Spade]

You know, every once in a while you could just admit that you, too, can be wrong. We all admire your knowledge and your intelligence but I think we all would feel a little bit more comfortable if you wouldn't act as if you were absolutely infallible. I cannot remember a single argument in which you let yourself be swayed by reasoning which I find frustrating. Of course, it's always the GM's call but I think everyone who has ever GMed knows that sometimes mistakes happen and it would be awesome if you could just admit these rare cases and don't force your opinion on us. I don't want to wake memories of bnc stupidly shooting at an armored van for no reason - I'm just saying that I as a player would feel more comfortable if I wouldn't have the feeling that I have to surrender to each and ever whim of my GM, especially if it creates absurd situations that should not happen IC.

And I did not post in the IC thread because the situation was unclear and you taught me quite memorably to never ever again submit a post until the situation is 100 % clarified.

EDIT: by the way, adrenaline is not a drug, especially if it's not inserted by an auto-inserter but produced by the body itself.

I freely admit that I can and am wrong quite often. But there is no objective truth about how to handle Stim. We both are looking at different parts of the rules to extrapolate what Stim does, because the RAW neglects to so. I relinquished my GM prerogative to decide which interpretation we use to accomodate you all, but that's the extend of my patience in this regard.
I explained at every junction why I do what I do, revealing information that you actually had no need or right to receive. I did that because I thought it benefited everyone to gain more insight in the rules compared to the benefit of keeping the pacing and tension of the story high. Now it seems I could have saved me some energy since you obviously did either not read or follow my explanations.
Also, I bent the rules quite a few times in your favor and yet you still seem to think I'm owing you something for the pleasure to GM a story tailored for you.

Having to juggle my world building, balancing encounters and keeping the story on track is not helped by the fact that I do have less time to post due to a job change. This added stress is not what I want to spend my precious free time on.

In short: That's it. The game is on hold until further notice.

If someone else wants to step in as GM, feel free to do so, I'll share my notes.


Answer to your edit: by the way, adrenaline is the original trademarked name for the drug by Parke, Davis & Co used as medication for a variety of conditions - as I'm sure you already knew, considering it's part of emergency doctors' kit.

[Volker]

Please, don't mix together different things, the storyline and the rule thing. I very much appreciate your storylines and gametelling, and I repeatedly said so.
Also, it wasn't me who brought up this debate, I just provided the rules which mention both the specific drug and the specific rule we were arguing about. But if you really are so sensitive about that, I will solemnly vow that I will never again question you. I will start with your decision and wait for you to find the time and will to carry on without any remark or question.

[Gilga]

Emotions seem to run high.
No offense intended.

I meant to share that I am a bit frustrated with the combat, but alas with it. I am sorry to hear about your decision, it was really fun to play with you.


By the way, most of the progress in the combat was tactical mistakes. The two prime runners could avoid the spirits, and Anna's magic (or force her to give up her augmentations) simply by stepping into the apartment. In that case, we needed to face the guardian spirit in addition to having no spirits of our own. (or the mage could leave with it) So the little progress we did made is purely by (what I feel) where tactical mistakes. (Striking aura spirit, astrally perceiving etc) This is why I think that the combat is so intense, and exactly how/when Battery recovers is just icing to the cake. Nullifying the little progress we did make by tossing everything we had on them.

It is striking me how we have such vastly different views on this issue.

[SquirrelDude]

I hope you come back after taking the time to destress, Jack.

It's one of the first combats that (because of some tactical blunders) it's felt like everything has been riding on some clutch dice rolls. We're 100% dead if I don't spike dice and knock the gun out of assault's hands (and that was by 1 success). That auto-shotty shreds us. The mercs clutched their resists fear rolls, Nova hasn't been able to land a clean hit on anything, and since that first disarm Sharkboy has been one or two successes away or totally whiffed every major attempt to swing combat.

We put ourselves in a position to lose, and we're losing.

[Volker]

Nah, we aren't. The fight is tough but exciting. The mage is fleeing, Battery is down, Assault exposed and so far we didn't even get a box of damage! We wouldn't play SR if we'd want to pet unicorns.

[Thanee]

Nova has 6 boxes of stun damage (thanks to 0 hits on the Edge roll).

Anyways, I hope, when the waves have settled a bit, that we can find some common ground to continue here.

I must admit, that I can see Jack's point. Especially you, Volker, come across unnecessarily harsh at times, when discussing rules topics.

You really should consider your words a bit more carefully sometimes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't think you mean any ill here at all, just to be sure, but it's not always about intent, but how it is received.

Bye
Thanee

[Volker]

[ Spoiler ]

I'm sorry the reply comes so late. I answered 3 days ago, but my phone is broken and never transmitted the message.

Thanks for the feedback. I know that I can sound harsher than I intend sometimes. I grew up in a quite rural area as the offspring of honest yet somewhat, well, rural parents with two bigger brothers who didn't really help my mother who was trying to teach me manners nonetheless. This is not supposed to be an excuse, perhaps an explanation, but I guess not even that. I really do try hard to adapt the cautious, polite and "safe" way most people I know nowadays talk. Maybe luckace, who knows me personally, can confirm that struggle. But I have to admit that I have a hard time doing so as I was socialized in a completely different manner. Before I was 20, I knew nobody who communicated in the fashion. Since then, I'm trying to learn, but especially if emotions are involved, I'm still facing difficulties.

That said, I'm sorry if I insulted you (or someone else). This was never my intention. For me, this was a rule debate, and little more. I'm sorry if it felt different to you.

[Jack_Spade]

Alright, I had a week to calm down and decompress a bit.
I'll resume GMing when I get home tonight.

Meanwhile, don't feel pressured not to cap Battery if that is what your char would do.

[Volker]

I really mean what I wrote. It's not just a "some time has passed and now I'm cool enough to wrote sorry though I don't mean it." Maybe the first part is true, however...
If situations like these arise, I am welcome to feedback. I can not only deal, but also take.

As for Battery: bnc certainly wouldn't have thought about that. And to be earnest, no matter who we fought til now, none of our team ever has. Nova's new, of course, so that's up to Thanee.