Salted Wounds [OOC], a Deep Black Sea game Options

[Thanee]

Astral perception is not sufficient to get a lock on your target

Why should it not be?

"If you’re using astral perception (or you are otherwise dual-natured), you can cast spells on targets in either the physical world or astral plane." (p. 281 SR5)

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Whether it’s natural rain, fog, smoke from natural sources, or smoke screen of some type thrown up for cover, they all block line of sight.

The part I am also wondering about here is, that smoke gives a visibility modifier (table on next page). It shouldn't block line of sight completely, or not?

Bye
Thanee

[Gilga]

Alright Grenade it is: She'll run after him and use the fling spell.
Using the fling spell to toss the grenade- fling flashbang grenade.: 13d6t5 5
drain: 15d6t5 6

edit: I forgot about the sustaining penalty, (If she can drop intuition spell, then she would keeping the 5 hits, otherwise she'll have 4 hits - I mean she needs the free acgtion to levitate.).
At any case, 4 hits or 5 hits should be enough to have the grenade land at the middle of the smoke cloud. Damage is 10S -5AP (Flashbang) but I doubt it'll do anything on itself, the smoke should be cleared and then she can levitate.

[Jack_Spade]

@Thanee
You should read the whole paragraph:

"You need to be able to establish a link with your target—depending
on the spell, you’ll need to be able to see or touch the tar-
get in order to establish the mystical link.
If you need to see the target, line of sight can be es-
tablished with your natural vision, including using reflec-
tive surfaces and looking through transparent objects.
Cyber- or bioware visual enhancements that have been
paid for with Essence count as natural. Any technologi-
cal visual aid that digitizes or augments the visual input
for you (a camera, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds,
etc.) doesn’t work—you’re looking at a generated image,
not the light from the real target. Spellcasting by visual
targeting is subject to normal visibility modifiers. You can
use visual targeting to target astral targets when you’re
in astral space (you’re not technically seeing them, but
the analogy works)."

The bolded part is the important one.

What you are refering to is the attacking people on the astral part where you need to be dual natured

Besides: Smoke puts a physical obstacle in your LoS - there is no reason to assume that Astral Perception can see through that just as it can't see through walls.

Also, the IR-smoke applies a -6 to visibility which is equivalent to no line of sight or a blind shot. You could still use an indirect combat spell, since those work like guns, but nothing that requires to lock on an aura.


@gilga
Soak: 32d6t5 9
1 point of stun, but it's rounded down and away (Flashbang has AP-4)

Assault gets to resist again: Resist: 14d6t5 3
And you have him in the air.

How far did you run after him? I assume you closed to 12m since you didn't incorporate range penalties

[Gilga]

I was not sure how range goes... I don't remember them by heart. If posdible I'd like to keep a few meters of movement for another explosive grenade.

[Volker]

@Thanee: To be dual-natured (e.g. Astral Perception) means kind of having a body on both planes - it doesn't mean that those planes intermingle. If you can astrally perceive a mundane target, you're still not connected on the same plane as it is only your astral body who's able to establish "line of sight" to the victim. So, astrally perceiving doesn't allow you any more to cast a spell at a target than astral projection - unless, of course, you also have line of sight in the physical realm.


@Jack: reg. Counterspelling: sure, a detection spell can be blocked by Counterspelling but the spirits cannot use Counterspelling on the mage in the first place as you made quite clear there is no line of sight. The spirits stayed in the fight with us. They can use Spell Defense for themselves, of course, but not for the mage.
Also,

And yes, spell defense always acts against the spell caster, reducing their net successes.

is not true. Spell defense is a dicepool modifier for the defender not for the attacker.

"When a spell affects multiple targets, either because it has an area effect or because it is sustained and may be encountered by multiple people, you should only make a single Spellcasting Test. Every potential target then makes an individual Spell Resistance Test and compares their result to yours."

So each of the spirits resist on their own (probably with Force*2 + Counterspelling) but the mage only gets to resist with his WIL+LOG (which will probably enough against 3 hits anyway; also it's indeed questionable whether the mage has "hostile intentions towards" Wraith.)

[Thanee]

Then explain this quote to me:

"If you’re using astral perception (or you are otherwise dual-natured), you can cast spells on targets in either the physical world or astral plane."

1) If you are using astral perception (not the "otherwise dual-natured"), you are blind. NO line of sight on the physical world possible.
2) If you are using astral perception, you can cast spells on targets on the physical world.

How can these two work, if you need physical line of sight?


IMHO, astral vision is enough to qualify for line of sight (otherwise ghoul mages would be pretty sad). The important part is, that you have to be on the same plane with your physical body, in order to use magic on someone. The targeting is completely disconnected from that part.


Anyways, that's how I see it. If you are not convinced, let's move on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Volker]

Where do you get premise 1) from? I always imaginad astral perception overlaying the physical one, kind of like AR.

[Thanee]

Essentially, this. But it is not very... clear on what it means.

"SHIFT PERCEPTION
A character capable of Astral Perception may shift perception to or from Astral Space as a Simple Action."

This part makes it crystal-clear, though.

"Dual-natured critters are active in both the astral plane and the physical plane at the same time. They can affect both astral and physical beings. They can perceive and interact with the astral plane like characters using astral perception (see Astral Perception, p. 312). Being dual natured, though, is different from astral perception in that a dual-natured critter always senses both the physical and astral worlds; they don’t have to shift back and forth (and, in fact, cannot do so)."

Bye
Thanee

[Volker]

Good point. I agree and take back everything I said ^^ thanks!

[Thanee]

Just in case you are waiting for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nova delays after Anna for now.

If she cannot catch him [=Assault] with another spell, it is pretty much pointless to follow him, anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Jack_Spade]

@Jack: reg. Counterspelling: sure, a detection spell can be blocked by Counterspelling but the spirits cannot use Counterspelling on the mage in the first place as you made quite clear there is no line of sight. The spirits stayed in the fight with us. They can use Spell Defense for themselves, of course, but not for the mage.
Also, is not true. Spell defense is a dicepool modifier for the defender not for the attacker.
So each of the spirits resist on their own (probably with Force*2 + Counterspelling) but the mage only gets to resist with his WIL+LOG (which will probably enough against 3 hits anyway; also it's indeed questionable whether the mage has "hostile intentions towards" Wraith.)

Reading it again, I see you are right. I missinterpreted the first sentence
"Spell defense is used against hostile spells cast at you or at targets that are within your line of sight (using the same rules as for targeting spells) that you decide to protect with spell defense."

to mean that any spell with an area effect that affects you can be disspelled at the source - but that was a mix up with the disspelling section.

But since Luckace took drain for it, I think it's fair to give him the info:
The mage is currently about 15m below him and 10m to the south.

@Thanee
Ghouls are blind which is why they have to rely on touch, get cybereyes or only use indirect combat spells or target dual natured critters on the astral.

Sight (i.e. the real reflected light) was always essential for casting spells in shadowrun, unless you were actually targeting things on the astral.

[SquirrelDude]

Who's turn is it?

Sorry, bit out of the loop. Thanksgiving.

[Gilga]

Yours (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jack_Spade]

@gilga

You probably should also write that you throw a grenade and levitate Assault again.

[Gilga]

I was waiting for the Shark (that has the same initiative but higher edge than Anna).

Edit: Wrote something.

[Luckace]

Ah, nice! Thanks for the info, Jack.

[Gilga]

@SD I am confused by Shark's last action, Shark should be at the street with Assault, he just kicked the man. He is not at the window as far as I know.

[ Spoiler ]

Assault: Defense: 11d6t5 5
Soak: 36d6t5 7

9 Stun
10 Physical stun boxes filled

@Luckace

Make a tracking test with Assensing for your spirit

The knee to the face of the mercenary did possibly the most damage so far, breaking a few teeth despite the man's attempts to evade the attack.

[Jack_Spade]

That was up on the scaffolds, which are currently in the process of falling to the ground along the whole Northside of the building

[Volker]

Is the van armed?

[Jack_Spade]

Nope. It has gunports though, so you can let your drone shoot out from cover.

bnc 21 (pick up drone and leap into the van)
Anna's Spirit: 18 (Searching for mage, Terrorized)
Mage 17 (gone)
Guardian Spirit 15 (fear Anna's spirit)
Bound Guardian Spirit 13 Fear Aeraziel
Aeraziel 13 (searching for Mage)
Assault 12 runs (smoke grenade)
Nova 11 (interrupt) (delay)
Sharkboy 9 (interrupt) (Aims at Assault)
Anna 9 (interrupt) (Runs after Assault, disperses smoke)
Wraith 6

[Gilga]

Alright (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) So it is Nova's turn.

[Volker]

Nope. It has gunports though, so you can let your drone shoot out from cover.

The drone with the good gun is broken, though, and James only has a Savelette mounted. That's like trying to stone a concrete wall. I think, I'll try and help out Eliza.

[Gilga]

You can fire a called shot to disarm (before Anna explodes).

[Gilga]

Since Assault has no edge, and no defense dice:
Damage resitance: 28d6t5 8 which means he'll take 13 stun from Nova's attack, or 6 physical damage.
He'll have (if I am following) 16 physical damage and a full stun monitor. (Jack feel free to correct me).

[Jack_Spade]

That is correct. Also, that puts him into 1 overflow and he'll begin to bleed out while also going unconscious