Lowlife kickstarter, A d20, class and level based shadowrun? Who thought this was good?! Options

[FuelDrop]

Link to kickstarter here

So someone has decided to try and take advantage of Shadowrun 6E being... well, terrible... and is making a knockoff shadowrun system.

It looks awful.

I think I speak for all of us when I say that a class/level based, d20 system Shadowrun is a horrible idea from the start. Add in stuff like having AC increase with level, a crit fumble system on d20 (always a terrible idea)... yeah, this is gonna be a forgettable knockoff.

[binarywraith]

It's always a D&D heartbreaker, even when it's a Shadowrun clone.

[FuelDrop]

Indeed.

It's very sad, since some solid competition for the cyberpunk & sorcery niche might make Catalyst lift their game going forwards and produce another good edition of Shadowrun.

[pbangarth]

Hmmmm. Competition would make a former contender try harder?

Well, as one from the True North Strong and Free, I would counter argue with the example of my hometown NHL team, the Toronto Maple Leafs. They were once a force to be reckoned with ... 53 years ago. Yet they are the richest, most valuable team in the league and have been so for years.

So, competition matters only if it hits the bottom line. In the parallel case of a role playing game, as long as the books sell, why try?

[FuelDrop]

I doubt that this game will be hitting Shadowrun's bottom line. Like I said, its a d20 system, class based, and has several other flawed mechanics being implemented.

I am just bemoaning that it won't be able to compete, or even be a good game in its own right by all appearances (mediocre at best). 5th edition of D&D was one of the better ones they ever put out, and I don't doubt that a big part of that was the flop that was 4E combined with Pathfinder putting in serious competition, pushing them back to their roots and coming back strong.

Something like that for Shadowrun, forcing 7th Edition to go back to their roots and find the core of what people love about Shadowrun, would be fantastic. Sadly this is not it.

[AquaBlack0B]

(Dangit, posted in the wrong thread for this)
Is it really a SR knockoff, or is it just cyberpunk + magic?

I don't think anyone would call Final Fantasy VII a SR knockoff, even though it is also cyberpunk + magic and was released after SR. It's completely different mechanics as well- and if they end up using vancian magic like D&D, I think it would be hard to say that the setting's a knockoff

[Koekepan]

The best shadowrun rules revisit that I've seen published was a blend of GURPS materials.

I know, GURPS has its own problems, but at least it has pretty comprehensive, but also comprehensively flexible rules, and its magic system isn't completely insane.

I do agree that vancian magic is completely inappropriate for it. Another highly inappropriate knockoff that I saw was one based on the Apocalypse World rules. It tried for cool, and missed the milieu so hard it scared Street Fighter.

[AquaBlack0B]

Oh, are you talking about Shadowrun in the Sprawl? I enjoy that one a lot. However, it is a completely different type of game, so if you go in expecting it to be like other SR games you will be disappointed.

[Koekepan]

No, I don't think so. This one was called Sixth World (and subtitled: a Dungeon World Hack for Shadowrun).

The Dungeon World guys are OK for doing something that looks stylish and low(ish) friction, but it was practically an object lesson in the sysem needing to reflect the milieu. This is where GURPS was actually a better match.

[tisoz]

It looks like the system Shadowrun has been striving for.

I think the comment about armor increasing with level is a misunderstanding. it sounds like the defensive mechanic is level based, but actual armor is a separate item/issue.

[FuelDrop]

I really think that a d20 based class/level using Shadowrun is a bad direction to go. a GURPS port is always welcome for us detail oriented folk, of course.

[KCKitsune]

Looks like this is somewhat loosely based on D&D 5e (the short rest mechanic). Might be interesting. I'm backing it.

When I get it, I'll let you guys know how it is.

One thing I might do is look to see how these rules integrate with D&D and might use this as a class-less based system for a campaign.

[Lionesque]

It looks like the system Shadowrun has been striving for.

I think the comment about armor increasing with level is a misunderstanding. it sounds like the defensive mechanic is level based, but actual armor is a separate item/issue.

I agree. It looks like it *may* solve a slew of the issues with game mechanics that have haunted every edition (and rendered 5 and 6 unplayable to some). I cross my cyberspurs it will work.

[tisoz]

Too bad what they have been striving for is not what I am looking for.

[AquaBlack0B]

Oho, it's not 5e, but a much older D&D system that this is based on. The Low Fantasy Gaming engine, an OSR system.

I haven't done much with OSR, but I know that it's not a very crunchy system.

[Sendaz]

What is the Stat range on this one?

The preview video showing the classes has each class needing a 15 in their class stat.

We get it, having high stats is sort of handy, but if this is a classic 3-18 range needing flipping 15 to even try at a class seems a bit off.

May still check it out as may give some new ideas...

[FuelDrop]

I'm thinking of backing it, even if merely to encourage more people to enter the genre.

[binarywraith]

Eh, I'm more interested in other takes on the genre at this point. Hard Wired Island is the next thing I'm salivating over.

[AquaBlack0B]

Looks like the preview for that's free on DTRPG. Do you know when they're releasing the full version?

[FuelDrop]

Been chatting with the developers on twitter. They seem pretty cool. I believe we'll start seeing some playtest material released after the kickstarter wraps up in early October and a full release is slated for next year.

[binarywraith]

Yeah, they're pretty cool people. I backed HWI on KS and it's been fun watching it develop.

There's a bunch of preview stuff up on Twitter.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HardWiredIsland

[KCKitsune]

This is kinda related, but also somewhat off topic (I'm doing this in response to FuelDrop's one line)

I think I speak for all of us when I say that a class/level based, d20 system Shadowrun is a horrible idea from the start.

OK Long Post incoming!

I wonder if there is a way to have a class-less system for D&D? I know that in Anime d20, you can have Character points and they give you a way to cash in XP for more character points. The following is directly from the Anime d20 book and therefore take this with as much salt as you would like. Character "level" would just be a way to balance out what kind of opposition that a character can take on or what kind of character you are:

"Levels"
1-5: Street
6-10: Regular Runner
11-15: Elite Runner
16-20: Prime Runner
20+: Legendary Runner

Now adding in cyberware/bioware would a pain in the hoop! My simple way of dealing with it would be to find the corresponding magic item. If you got the cash then you can get it installed. If you don't have the cash you can invest XP into getting the item. Ratio would be up to the Game Master, but I would suggest the XP cost needed to make the magic item, then add 15% for cost of materials and skill of the cyber-surgeon.


Anime d20 also breaks down how much character improvement costs:


Advantage and cost to raise in rank in Character points
+1 to Fort, Ref, or Will Save: 1

+1 to first Base Attack Bonus: 3

(2 + Int modifier) Skills gained each Level: 0.5 each Level
(4 + Int modifier) Skills gained each Level: 1 each Level
(6 + Int modifier) Skills gained each Level: 1.5 each Level
(8 + Int modifier) Skills gained each Level: 2 each Level

Special class talents and abilities: Variable

d4 Hit Dice: 1 each Level
d6 Hit Dice: 1.5 each Level
d8 Hit Dice: 2 each Level
d10 Hit Dice: 2.5 each Level
d12 Hit Dice: 3 each Level

Spells
0th Level spells (further modified by spell breadth): 0.25 each
1st-9th Level spells (modified by spell breadth): 0.5 times spell Level
Cleric domain spells: 0.5 times normal value

GMs would have to enforce a minimum number of spells of a lower level spells before you can get a higher level spell. Example to get a second level spell you have to have 3 first level spells,etc, etc. Flavor for each GM.



TABLE 5-20: ACCESSIBLE SPELLS FACTOR FOR CASTING CLASSES

Multiplication Factor by Class
Bard: 0.43
Cleric: 0.62
Druid: 0.44
Paladin: 0.10
Ranger: 0.12
Sorcerer: 0.85
Wizard: 1.00

Trading Experience Points for Character Points
In most other d20 System games, Character Points and Attributes do not exist. If you would like to add BESM d20 Attributes to your character from a different d20 System game, your Game Master may allow you to trade Experience Points (XP) for Character Points. Since the number of XP required to obtain the next Level is equal to your character’s current character Level multiplied by 1,000 XP, adding 1 Character Point to your character reduces his or her XP total by 100 x current character Level.

For example, if you want to add one Rank of the Regeneration Attribute (4 Points) to your 4th Level crafty spy character from another d20 System game, your character’s current Experience Point total would be reduced by 1,600 XP (4 Points x 100 x 4th Level = 1,600 XP). Similarly, adding one Rank of the Own A Big Mecha Attribute (8 Points) to your 10th Level ever-questing knight d20 character reduces his or her XP total by 8,000 XP (8 Points x 100 x 10th Level = 8,000 XP). Of course, this Point exchange also applies for Defects (see page 87). Each Defect Bonus Point added to your other d20 System character increases his or her XP total by 100 x current character Level. Using this conversion guideline, any BESM d20 Attribute or Defect can be added to the d20 System game of your choice!

[FuelDrop]

So from discussions they seem to be wanting to do a fantasy world that has reached cyberpunk tech levels rather than a cyberpunk world that recently got magic.

[bannockburn]

Bright + a few years, then.

[KCKitsune]

Bright + a few years, then.

Or just a less advanced version of Starfinder.