Link to kickstarter here

So someone has decided to try and take advantage of Shadowrun 6E being... well, terrible... and is making a knockoff shadowrun system.

It looks awful.

I think I speak for all of us when I say that a class/level based, d20 system Shadowrun is a horrible idea from the start. Add in stuff like having AC increase with level, a crit fumble system on d20 (always a terrible idea)... yeah, this is gonna be a forgettable knockoff.

It's always a D&D heartbreaker, even when it's a Shadowrun clone.

Indeed.

It's very sad, since some solid competition for the cyberpunk & sorcery niche might make Catalyst lift their game going forwards and produce another good edition of Shadowrun.

Hmmmm. Competition would make a former contender try harder?

Well, as one from the True North Strong and Free, I would counter argue with the example of my hometown NHL team, the Toronto Maple Leafs. They were once a force to be reckoned with ... 53 years ago. Yet they are the richest, most valuable team in the league and have been so for years.

So, competition matters only if it hits the bottom line. In the parallel case of a role playing game, as long as the books sell, why try?

I doubt that this game will be hitting Shadowrun's bottom line. Like I said, its a d20 system, class based, and has several other flawed mechanics being implemented.

I am just bemoaning that it won't be able to compete, or even be a good game in its own right by all appearances (mediocre at best). 5th edition of D&D was one of the better ones they ever put out, and I don't doubt that a big part of that was the flop that was 4E combined with Pathfinder putting in serious competition, pushing them back to their roots and coming back strong.

Something like that for Shadowrun, forcing 7th Edition to go back to their roots and find the core of what people love about Shadowrun, would be fantastic. Sadly this is not it.

(Dangit, posted in the wrong thread for this)
Is it really a SR knockoff, or is it just cyberpunk + magic?

I don't think anyone would call Final Fantasy VII a SR knockoff, even though it is also cyberpunk + magic and was released after SR. It's completely different mechanics as well- and if they end up using vancian magic like D&D, I think it would be hard to say that the setting's a knockoff

The best shadowrun rules revisit that I've seen published was a blend of GURPS materials.

I know, GURPS has its own problems, but at least it has pretty comprehensive, but also comprehensively flexible rules, and its magic system isn't completely insane.

I do agree that vancian magic is completely inappropriate for it. Another highly inappropriate knockoff that I saw was one based on the Apocalypse World rules. It tried for cool, and missed the milieu so hard it scared Street Fighter.

Oh, are you talking about Shadowrun in the Sprawl? I enjoy that one a lot. However, it is a completely different type of game, so if you go in expecting it to be like other SR games you will be disappointed.

No, I don't think so. This one was called Sixth World (and subtitled: a Dungeon World Hack for Shadowrun).

The Dungeon World guys are OK for doing something that looks stylish and low(ish) friction, but it was practically an object lesson in the sysem needing to reflect the milieu. This is where GURPS was actually a better match.

It looks like the system Shadowrun has been striving for.

I think the comment about armor increasing with level is a misunderstanding. it sounds like the defensive mechanic is level based, but actual armor is a separate item/issue.

I really think that a d20 based class/level using Shadowrun is a bad direction to go. a GURPS port is always welcome for us detail oriented folk, of course.

Looks like this is somewhat loosely based on D&D 5e (the short rest mechanic). Might be interesting. I'm backing it.

When I get it, I'll let you guys know how it is.

One thing I might do is look to see how these rules integrate with D&D and might use this as a class-less based system for a campaign.

I agree. It looks like it *may* solve a slew of the issues with game mechanics that have haunted every edition (and rendered 5 and 6 unplayable to some). I cross my cyberspurs it will work.

Too bad what they have been striving for is not what I am looking for.

Oho, it's not 5e, but a much older D&D system that this is based on. The Low Fantasy Gaming engine, an OSR system.

I haven't done much with OSR, but I know that it's not a very crunchy system.

What is the Stat range on this one?

The preview video showing the classes has each class needing a 15 in their class stat.

We get it, having high stats is sort of handy, but if this is a classic 3-18 range needing flipping 15 to even try at a class seems a bit off.

May still check it out as may give some new ideas...

I'm thinking of backing it, even if merely to encourage more people to enter the genre.

Eh, I'm more interested in other takes on the genre at this point. Hard Wired Island is the next thing I'm salivating over.

Looks like the preview for that's free on DTRPG. Do you know when they're releasing the full version?

Been chatting with the developers on twitter. They seem pretty cool. I believe we'll start seeing some playtest material released after the kickstarter wraps up in early October and a full release is slated for next year.

Yeah, they're pretty cool people. I backed HWI on KS and it's been fun watching it develop.

There's a bunch of preview stuff up on Twitter.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HardWiredIsland

This is kinda related, but also somewhat off topic (I'm doing this in response to FuelDrop's one line)



OK Long Post incoming!

I wonder if there is a way to have a class-less system for D&D? I know that in Anime d20, you can have Character points and they give you a way to cash in XP for more character points. The following is directly from the Anime d20 book and therefore take this with as much salt as you would like. Character "level" would just be a way to balance out what kind of opposition that a character can take on or what kind of character you are:

"Levels"
1-5: Street
6-10: Regular Runner
11-15: Elite Runner
16-20: Prime Runner
20+: Legendary Runner

Now adding in cyberware/bioware would a pain in the hoop! My simple way of dealing with it would be to find the corresponding magic item. If you got the cash then you can get it installed. If you don't have the cash you can invest XP into getting the item. Ratio would be up to the Game Master, but I would suggest the XP cost needed to make the magic item, then add 15% for cost of materials and skill of the cyber-surgeon.


Anime d20 also breaks down how much character improvement costs:


Advantage and cost to raise in rank in Character points
+1 to Fort, Ref, or Will Save: 1

+1 to first Base Attack Bonus: 3

(2 + Int modifier) Skills gained each Level: 0.5 each Level
(4 + Int modifier) Skills gained each Level: 1 each Level
(6 + Int modifier) Skills gained each Level: 1.5 each Level
(8 + Int modifier) Skills gained each Level: 2 each Level

Special class talents and abilities: Variable

d4 Hit Dice: 1 each Level
d6 Hit Dice: 1.5 each Level
d8 Hit Dice: 2 each Level
d10 Hit Dice: 2.5 each Level
d12 Hit Dice: 3 each Level

Spells
0th Level spells (further modified by spell breadth): 0.25 each
1st-9th Level spells (modified by spell breadth): 0.5 times spell Level
Cleric domain spells: 0.5 times normal value

GMs would have to enforce a minimum number of spells of a lower level spells before you can get a higher level spell. Example to get a second level spell you have to have 3 first level spells,etc, etc. Flavor for each GM.



TABLE 5-20: ACCESSIBLE SPELLS FACTOR FOR CASTING CLASSES

Multiplication Factor by Class
Bard: 0.43
Cleric: 0.62
Druid: 0.44
Paladin: 0.10
Ranger: 0.12
Sorcerer: 0.85
Wizard: 1.00

Trading Experience Points for Character Points
In most other d20 System games, Character Points and Attributes do not exist. If you would like to add BESM d20 Attributes to your character from a different d20 System game, your Game Master may allow you to trade Experience Points (XP) for Character Points. Since the number of XP required to obtain the next Level is equal to your character’s current character Level multiplied by 1,000 XP, adding 1 Character Point to your character reduces his or her XP total by 100 x current character Level.

For example, if you want to add one Rank of the Regeneration Attribute (4 Points) to your 4th Level crafty spy character from another d20 System game, your character’s current Experience Point total would be reduced by 1,600 XP (4 Points x 100 x 4th Level = 1,600 XP). Similarly, adding one Rank of the Own A Big Mecha Attribute (8 Points) to your 10th Level ever-questing knight d20 character reduces his or her XP total by 8,000 XP (8 Points x 100 x 10th Level = 8,000 XP). Of course, this Point exchange also applies for Defects (see page 87). Each Defect Bonus Point added to your other d20 System character increases his or her XP total by 100 x current character Level. Using this conversion guideline, any BESM d20 Attribute or Defect can be added to the d20 System game of your choice!

So from discussions they seem to be wanting to do a fantasy world that has reached cyberpunk tech levels rather than a cyberpunk world that recently got magic.

Bright + a few years, then.

Or just a less advanced version of Starfinder.

You'd be better off starting with something like Earthdawn where the skill level and the character level are related, but not inextricably linked. You can remain a level 1 character forever and just be the best in the world at whatever skill you have access to. Character level just unlocks better skills and a few more HP.

HARP 2E also handles classes really well.

Basically imagine Shadowrun-style karmagen and progression, but your class gives you discounts on certain skill categories and gives a couple of starting bonuses.

Never even heard of the game system.

I would encourage you to take a look at RuneQuest. The core mechanics (I'm talking about an old edition, haven't seen the newer ones, but I *think* it's more or less the same) are used in many games (Cthulhu springs to mind), but the gist of it is that you have stats that yield a little modifier to skill groups, and in each skill group you can have as many skills as you like. You (have a chance to) increase in the skills that you use, which means that, over time, characters tend to develop in completely different directions, but as a reflection of the character's actions, rather than some arbitrary set of mechanics. Except for Amber, RQ is my absolute favorite ruleset. And the setting is out of this world crazy fun - a lot like early days Shadowrun in its wild appropriation and deconstrucction of real world mythos, legends, religion and logic, but vastly more complex and deep.

HARP on The Trove

Seriously, one of the best fantasy systems around IMO. Folkways really pushes it over the edge by adding non adventuring professions so you have the option of starting as a humble farmhand or whatever and doing the full heroes journey. The skills system is very well polished, and how they handle classes is excellent.

Would be easy to remove conventional leveling by awarding DP directly and having the benefits of each level when you have spent 50 DP (the amount normally awarded to you on level up)

I'll take a look at it, but honestly, the one BIG advantage that D&D has over almost every other gaming system is a LOT of source material! Say what you will about WotC (especially now a days), but they hit it out of the park when they went with the Open Gaming License. When they did that, they allowed every Tom, Dick, and Harry to make content. Some it was great, some it sucks donkey hoop. Most of it is good.

Most of that content is easily adapted to any other system.

Statting monsters and npcs is easy, it's the art assets and writing that take a lot of GM time.

OK, I know I'm necroing a thread, but I did say that I would post my thoughts after I did a review of the book.

First things first, this book is based on D&D 5th edition and NOT 3.5 or pathfinder. It "loses" points right there. It also introduces two new stats: Luck and Perception, and renames Wisdom to Willpower. Luck is used for all saving throws and is modified by the appropriate attribute. It is also fixed bases on level. And here's the cherry on top of the drek sundae... EVERY time you make a successful luck save the Luck Attribute goes DOWN. At first level you only have a 11 Luck, and only restores after the end of a 'Run (they call it a job, but we all know it's a Shadowrun).

Next this game will make you roll a LOT of characters. Character levels only go to 10. Your hit points are your class base + Constitution Score + Level (and that is NOT cumulative. A Brawler (one of the tougher classes) with a 20 CON will start the game with 25 hit points. At 10th level he'll only have 34 HP. What's worse is if you roll a Natural 20, a weapon does Max damage and causes a roll on the appropriate "trauma" table (this also happens if you roll a natural 19).

For example: a 1st level Gunhand (read Street Samurai) who has a Perception of 14 (+2 modifier) fires a Rybak S32 SMG (easy to obtain SMG that does 2d8 damage) at a Minotaur Brawler with 20 Constitution (therefore has 25 HP) wearing a Kevlar coat (AR 3). The gunhand rolls a natural 20. The gunhand does 18 HP (16 from the gun and +2 because of perception modifier), and then rolled a 6... Double Tap! (I rolled it on Random.org to be completely fair). The coat reduces this damage to 15. Since this reduces the Brawler to less that 1/2 hit points he is staggered... which is important because Double Tap says "After applying damage, if the target is Staggered, they are reduced to zero hp instead."... So a Minotaur wears decent armor for a 1st level character is now at ZERO hp. The minotaur has to make a Luck save vs dying. I rolled the save and got a 8 so it was successful. The minotaur is only mostly dead, and not instantly dead.

Next on the list is Magic: Magic in this game is PUNISHING! You only start with (Will Modifier+1) spells. So a mage had best start with as high of a Will as possible. Next, EVERY spell has the possibility of going completely and utterly wrong. For example a Mage with 18 Willpower (max for a starting character) rolls a 19 on their attempt to cast a shield spell. This is a failure and has a roll on the "Dark Flux" table. I again used Random.org and rolled an 8. This entry is "Rift" which says "A random enraged monster from the void appears within 1d10m of you. The creature wreaks havoc for 1d4 minutes then vanishes."
Hacking is a lot more simplified and at the same time more dangerous. The server you're hitting is NEVER fully under your control. Unlike Shadowrun where it is possible to become admin and turn off all of the defenses. Lowlife 2090, on the other hand makes it so that you ALWAYS have to get out before the server fraks you... HARD.

Finally Riggers... Not much to say here. They work mostly like Shadowrun riggers, but they get an automatic 10 km range. They get tricks that make it harder to take over their drones, and maybe take over other people's drones.